Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Jeffrey Bowden]

He was told to "come up here" and then in the Spirit he saw richly detailed scenes in Heaven. That is all I know about it. So, whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, I didn't have the vision and Paul had his vision and didn't know even then. And besides, what difference does it make? John is the one who saw and heard everything. He heard the voice that told him to "come up here" and then he's up there in heaven seeing the vision from heaven.
I can see how you might see it. That the vision is of the whole world, from the wilderness to Jerusalem and to Rome and up to heaven and that John, being in the vision. can travel from one place to another in the vision. So when he is told to come up here, he, in his vision goes up to heaven. And in his vision is carried away in the Spirit to the wilderness or Jerusalem. It's like when you travel in a dream, except it's a vision. You don't go any place physically, but, like I've done in a dream, fly around the world.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

“I looked” and “I had heard” are key proof that John was seeing and hearing this in his vision while on Patmos.

The quotation clarifies what will be shouted in 1 Th 4:16. All of the rapture verses work together in proving the pre-Trib rapture.

You always want John going here and going there, which are additions to Scripture. They are all invalidated by Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8. It was John’s role, on Patmos, to observe the vision’s many different scenes and write about what he saw and heard.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Of course they're not additions to scripture, they're plainly stated. John is told to "come up here" and the next verse shows him before the throne in heaven. He's traveling in his vision like traveling in a dream,
Where exactly do you place the resurrection, judgement, rapture and the victory over death? Do you add them to Rev 4:1 or between 4:1 and 4:2? Or where. I see no place for them.
Thessalonians 4:15 clearly states that He would "descend from heaven with a shout", not a call to "come up here". He meets them in the air which is the lowest part of the atmosphere by definition.

Strong's Lexicon
aér: Air
Original Word: ἀήρ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aér
Pronunciation: ah-ayr'
Phonetic Spelling: (ah-ayr')
Definition: Air
Meaning: air, the lower air we breathe.

Word Origin: Derived from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e., respire; by analogy, to blow)

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Of course they're not additions to scripture, they're plainly stated. John is told to "come up here" and the next verse shows him before the throne in heaven. He's traveling in his vision like traveling in a dream,
Where exactly do you place the resurrection, judgement, rapture and the victory over death? Do you add them to Rev 4:1 or between 4:1 and 4:2? Or where. I see no place for them.
Thessalonians 4:15 clearly states that He would "descend from heaven with a shout", not a call to "come up here". He meets them in the air which is the lowest part of the atmosphere by definition.

Strong's Lexicon
aér: Air
Original Word: ἀήρ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aér
Pronunciation: ah-ayr'
Phonetic Spelling: (ah-ayr')
Definition: Air
Meaning: air, the lower air we breathe.

Word Origin: Derived from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e., respire; by analogy, to blow)

Rev 1:1 (ESV): ... He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

It doesn't say anything about bringing John to Heaven to make it known.

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Your assertion would equate to MINIMAL time spent in the vision, and MAXIMAL time spent in Heaven. That's a false assertion.

In Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8, John only mentioned his vision and the one angel who showed him his vision.

Rev 4:1-2 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.

In Rev 4:1, immediately before "Come up here," John was speaking about his vision ("I looked, and behold"). After "Come up here," in verse 2, John said "behold." That's a word about his vision.

In Rev 4:1-2, John was speaking only about his vision. Therefore, In Rev 4:1, the loud command by Jesus applies to another context.

1 Th 4:16 (NIV): For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

That loud command is abbreviated in Rev 11:12 (ESV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

In Rev 4:1, the loud command, in full, is, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

All of the rapture verses work together to prove the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Of course they're not additions to scripture, they're plainly stated. John is told to "come up here" and the next verse shows him before the throne in heaven. He's traveling in his vision like traveling in a dream,
Where exactly do you place the resurrection, judgement, rapture and the victory over death? Do you add them to Rev 4:1 or between 4:1 and 4:2? Or where. I see no place for them.
Thessalonians 4:15 clearly states that He would "descend from heaven with a shout", not a call to "come up here". He meets them in the air which is the lowest part of the atmosphere by definition.

Strong's Lexicon
aér: Air
Original Word: ἀήρ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aér
Pronunciation: ah-ayr'
Phonetic Spelling: (ah-ayr')
Definition: Air
Meaning: air, the lower air we breathe.

Word Origin: Derived from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e., respire; by analogy, to blow)

Rev 4:1-2 prove that John never left Patmos. He referred to his vision in both verses. Therefore, "Come up here!" is reserved for 1 Th 4:16, and Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

With Rev 4:1 proven to be the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, 1 Th 4:17 is speaking about the air of Heaven. We know this by the closing words of 1 Th 4:17 (NIV): After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The 2A (2nd Advent) will not occur until the end of the Trib. Therefore, we will return with Jesus as part of His armies, in Rev 19:14.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Well, here I am with someone declaring they're "not with the Lord". If you're not with the Lord, then who are you with? Matthew 28:
20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Matthew 18:20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”


You've never had a dream where you traveled? Dreams are called "visions in the night".
Daniel 7:1In the first year of the reign of Belshazzar over Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he lay on his bed. He wrote down the dream, and this is the summary of his account...

Here Peter believes he's having a vision of the escape from prison, but it is real. If one cannot travel in a vision, why would Peter believe he was having a vision?
Acts 12:8And the angel said to him, “Dress yourself and put on your sandals.” And he did so. And he said to him, “Wrap your cloak around you and follow me.” 9And he went out and followed him. He did not know that what was being done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision.

Again, you keep having to add words to scripture to make it fit your doctrine. It doesn't say "air of heaven". Paul taught us not to go beyond what is written. 1 Cor 4:6
It wouldn't matter anyways as it still says "descend from heaven" not ascend to heaven.

There's nothing anywhere that indicates a pre-trib rapture. Everything points to the exact opposite.

Mark 13: No pre trib rapture here.
24But in those days, after that tribulation:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
26At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

The Parable of the Weeds No mention of a pre trib rapture here.
Matthew 13:
30Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Daniel 12 The resurrection happens after the great tribulation and no mention of a pre trib rapture here.

Isaiah 26: No pre trib rapture found here.
20Come, my people, enter your chambers,
and shut your doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until the fury has passed by.
21For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity,
and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it,
and will no more cover its slain.

John never left Patmos during the writing of Rev. All scenes in Rev were shown to John though an extraordinary vision, all shown to John by one angel.

John was never raptured to Heaven in Rev 4:1. Therefore, the purpose of Rev 4:1 is to rapture the Church to Heaven, before the Trib. Remember? "You" in Rev 3:10 are kept from the "hour of trial." That is the 7-year Trib, which starts at Rev 6:1-2. The pre-Trib rapture occurs at Rev 4:1.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

The order and timing of the Rapture (if true), tribulation, and second coming, judgement (bema and white throne) can only be inferred from a reading of the biblical text in any language. This has never been resolved. No position on these subjects is 100% provable. What we do know factually (from the text itself) is that there IS a tribulation period, and a second coming and a judgement. Beyond that is all conjecture. Nothing new has been brought to the table on this subject in centuries if not 1000's of years

That contradicts what God says about Himself.
Amos 3:7
“For the Lord God does nothing
without revealing his secret
to his servants the prophets.
8The lion has roared;
who will not fear?
The Lord God has spoken;
who can but prophesy?”

All those things you mention have been turned into secrets by Nicene creedal tradition, even becoming the Roman State Religion even though they are all clearly stated in scripture.
From Chat GPT
Nicene Christianity ultimately became the Roman state religion. Although the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD and its later refinement at Constantinople in 381 AD established Nicene doctrine as the orthodox expression of Christianity, it was Emperor Theodosius I who made the decisive move. In 380 AD, with the Edict of Thessalonica, Theodosius I declared that all Roman subjects were to adhere to Nicene Christianity, effectively making it the official state religion of the Roman Empire.

The problem is "disbelief" not "unbelief". "How can 2,000 years of tradition be wrong?"

So, when the Father who does know the day and hour sends the Son to show His servants the "things which must soon take place" Rev 1:1 and 22:6, the majority church recoils at the idea with endless work arounds. Or, Rev 19I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. This also has to be nullified into meaninglessness.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

John never left Patmos during the writing of Rev. All scenes in Rev were shown to John though an extraordinary vision, all shown to John by one angel.

John was never raptured to Heaven in Rev 4:1. Therefore, the purpose of Rev 4:1 is to rapture the Church to Heaven, before the Trib. Remember? "You" in Rev 3:10 are kept from the "hour of trial." That is the 7-year Trib, which starts at Rev 6:1-2. The pre-Trib rapture occurs at Rev 4:1.

Then boldly highlight the words that say that. If you can't, then maybe you should find a doctrine that's clearly stated like "fellow partaker in THE TRIBULATION". Your pretrib doctrine is a complete contradiction of the clearly stated: Hebrews 9:27Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.
If Christ had to die once to bear sin, then you have to die to be judged. No way to get around it. That's been the case for 2,000 years and will be the case for as long as the church is.
Eph 3:21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

John never left Patmos during the writing of Rev. All scenes in Rev were shown to John though an extraordinary vision, all shown to John by one angel.

John was never raptured to Heaven in Rev 4:1. Therefore, the purpose of Rev 4:1 is to rapture the Church to Heaven, before the Trib. Remember? "You" in Rev 3:10 are kept from the "hour of trial." That is the 7-year Trib, which starts at Rev 6:1-2. The pre-Trib rapture occurs at Rev 4:1.

You: "There's nothing anywhere that indicates a pre-trib rapture. Everything points to the exact opposite."

You: "John is told to "come up here" and the next verse shows him before the throne in heaven. He's traveling in his vision like traveling in a dream,"

What you allege that John did (but he never did), equates to a rapture. Except when I point it our that Rev 4:1 is rapture, you say the first thing you said above.

Then boldly highlight the words that say that. If you can't, then maybe you should find a doctrine that's clearly stated like "fellow partaker in THE TRIBULATION". Your pretrib doctrine is a complete contradiction of the clearly stated: Hebrews 9:27Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.
If Christ had to die once to bear sin, then you have to die to be judged. No way to get around it. That's been the case for 2,000 years and will be the case for as long as the church is.
Eph 3:21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Here’s the proof:

In Rev 1:9, John was on Patmos. Rev 1:9 ESV): I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

In verse 10, the vision started with its audio: Rev 1:10 (ESV): I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet

In verse 12, the visual part of John’s vision started: Rev 1:12 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,

The evidence of the vision starting is by all the repeated phrases found throughout Rev: “I heard” and “I saw” (including derivations of those phrases). The use of those phrases were meant to indicate in Scripture that John was seeing and hearing his vision.

Rev 4:1-2 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.

In Rev 4:1, immediately before “Come up here,” John proved he was watching his vision with “I looked, and behold,” and “I heard.”

Immediately after “Come up here,” in Rev 4:2, John used the word behold that proves he was still watching his vision.

John was on Patmos the whole time he was watching his vision to write Rev.

You claim that John was ordered to come up to Heaven. You are otherwise saying that John was raptured to Heaven. The evidence above proves he never left Patmos in the course of his vision.

You therefore say Rev 4:1 is a rapture verse. It is reserved exclusively for the Church, who was promised in Rev 3:10 that we will be kept from “the hour of trial.” That is the 7-year Trib which begins at Rev 6:1-2. Rev 3:10’s promise to the Church will be fulfilled in Rev 4:1, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

You: "There's nothing anywhere that indicates a pre-trib rapture. Everything points to the exact opposite."

You: "John is told to "come up here" and the next verse shows him before the throne in heaven. He's traveling in his vision like traveling in a dream,"

What you allege that John did (but he never did), equates to a rapture. Except when I point it our that Rev 4:1 is rapture, you say the first thing you said above.

Here’s the proof:

In Rev 1:9, John was on Patmos. Rev 1:9 ESV): I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

In verse 10, the vision started with its audio: Rev 1:10 (ESV): I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet

In verse 12, the visual part of John’s vision started: Rev 1:12 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,

The evidence of the vision starting is by all the repeated phrases found throughout Rev: “I heard” and “I saw” (including derivations of those phrases). The use of those phrases were meant to indicate in Scripture that John was seeing and hearing his vision.

Rev 4:1-2 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.

In Rev 4:1, immediately before “Come up here,” John proved he was watching his vision with “I looked, and behold,” and “I heard.”

Immediately after “Come up here,” in Rev 4:2, John used the word behold that proves he was still watching his vision.

John was on Patmos the whole time he was watching his vision to write Rev.

You claim that John was ordered to come up to Heaven. You are otherwise saying that John was raptured to Heaven. The evidence above proves he never left Patmos in the course of his vision.

You therefore say Rev 4:1 is a rapture verse. It is reserved exclusively for the Church, who was promised in Rev 3:10 that we will be kept from “the hour of trial.” That is the 7-year Trib which begins at Rev 6:1-2. Rev 3:10’s promise to the Church will be fulfilled in Rev 4:1, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

No one ever said he left Patmos. We're talking about his vision none of which is of Patmos. The fact that he both sees and hears the vision proves he's a participant in the vision. His vision places him in a completely different world where he goes to different places in his vision, not in the flesh while still being on the isle of Patmos.

When did the command to "come" ever mean to stay put?

Here are other commands to "come" followed by what he then sees.
Rev 6:1Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3And when the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”
Rev 6:5When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:7When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Here's another command to "come" followed by being carried away in the Spirit where he sees a woman sitting on a scarlet beast.

Rev 17:1Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2The kings of the earth were immoral with her, and those who dwell on the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her immorality.”
3And the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

The command to "come" has no relationship to the word used for rapture(harpazo). Harpazo means to snatch without any command to it. That's why those thefts are called "snatch and grabs".
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No one ever said he left Patmos. We're talking about his vision none of which is of Patmos. The fact that he both sees and hears the vision proves he's a participant in the vision. His vision places him in a completely different world where he goes to different places in his vision, not in the flesh while still being on the isle of Patmos.

When did the command to "come" ever mean to stay put?

Here are other commands to "come" followed by what he then sees.
Rev 6:1Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3And when the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”
Rev 6:5When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:7When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Here's another command to "come" followed by being carried away in the Spirit where he sees a woman sitting on a scarlet beast.

Rev 17:1Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2The kings of the earth were immoral with her, and those who dwell on the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her immorality.”
3And the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

The command to "come" has no relationship to the word used for rapture(harpazo). Harpazo means to snatch without any command to it. That's why those thefts are called "snatch and grabs".
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

Rev 4:1-2 prove that John was on, and stayed on Patmos — before and after hearing “Come up here.”

The vision provided all that John viewed and heard to write Rev.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No one ever said he left Patmos. We're talking about his vision none of which is of Patmos. The fact that he both sees and hears the vision proves he's a participant in the vision. His vision places him in a completely different world where he goes to different places in his vision, not in the flesh while still being on the isle of Patmos.

When did the command to "come" ever mean to stay put?

Here are other commands to "come" followed by what he then sees.
Rev 6:1Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3And when the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”
Rev 6:5When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:7When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Here's another command to "come" followed by being carried away in the Spirit where he sees a woman sitting on a scarlet beast.

Rev 17:1Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2The kings of the earth were immoral with her, and those who dwell on the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her immorality.”
3And the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

The command to "come" has no relationship to the word used for rapture(harpazo). Harpazo means to snatch without any command to it. That's why those thefts are called "snatch and grabs".
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

Rev 1:12-16 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

“To see” and “I saw” are about the vision being showed to John by one angel. Other angels were participants in some of the scenes, but one angel was in charge of showing John his vision.

In Rev 1:12-16, John could see all manner of fine detail in a scene clearly inside of Heaven. That is your guidance on how John saw the fine details in all scenes, in all manner of different locations. They all individually appeared to John in the vision showed to him by one angel while on Patmos.

It was John’s responsibility to WRITE what he heard and what he saw in his vision. Do you recognize how supremely efficient this arrangement was? John, a very, very good author of Scripture, was on Patmos. God made all manner of scenes appear before John so he could WRITE all of Rev from one location and in the least amount of time.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No one ever said he left Patmos. We're talking about his vision none of which is of Patmos. The fact that he both sees and hears the vision proves he's a participant in the vision. His vision places him in a completely different world where he goes to different places in his vision, not in the flesh while still being on the isle of Patmos.

When did the command to "come" ever mean to stay put?

Here are other commands to "come" followed by what he then sees.
Rev 6:1Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3And when the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”
Rev 6:5When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:7When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Here's another command to "come" followed by being carried away in the Spirit where he sees a woman sitting on a scarlet beast.

Rev 17:1Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2The kings of the earth were immoral with her, and those who dwell on the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her immorality.”
3And the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

The command to "come" has no relationship to the word used for rapture(harpazo). Harpazo means to snatch without any command to it. That's why those thefts are called "snatch and grabs".
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

Rev 4:1 isn't about the word "come." It's about the phrase "Come up here." That phrase is a command in Rev 4:1 to effect a rapture. Rev 4:1 is a rapture verse because it reveals the "loud command" Jesus will shout in 1 Th 4:16 (NIV): For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

In Rev 1:9, John is on Patmos.

In Rev 1:12-16, John sees fine details in Heaven. Where is John in Rev 1:12-16?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Rev 4;1 isn't about the word "come." It's about the phrase "Come up here." That phrase is a command in Rev 4:1 to effect a rapture. Rev 4:1 is a rapture verse because it reveals the "loud command" Jesus will shout in 1 Th 4:16 (NIV): For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

There's nothing similar to the "cry of command" of 1 Th 4:16 which is the word "keleusma" which is used only once and refers to waking the dead similar to this: John 11:43When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”

Word Origin: Derived from the verb κελεύω (keleuō), meaning "to command" or "to order."
Usage: The term "keleusma" refers to a command or a shout, often used in a military or authoritative context. It conveys the idea of a loud, authoritative order that prompts immediate action. In the New Testament, it is used to describe the commanding shout associated with the return of Christ.

And Rev 4:1 "come up"
Word Origin: From the preposition ἀνά (ana, meaning "up") and the verb βαίνω (baino, meaning "to go" or "to walk").
Usage: The Greek verb ἀναβαίνω (anabainó) primarily means "to go up" or "to ascend." It is used in the New Testament to describe both physical and metaphorical ascents. Physically, it can refer to going up a mountain, ascending into a higher place, or even rising from a lower position. Metaphorically, it can describe spiritual ascension or the act of rising in status or understanding.

In Rev 1:12-16, John sees fine details in Heaven. Where is John in Rev 1:12-16?

Clearly it was a vision behind him, symbolizing the 7 churches, nothing there about seeing what's in heaven. Rev 1: 10On the Lord’s day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, ...12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There's nothing similar to the "cry of command" of 1 Th 4:16 which is the word "keleusma" which is used only once and refers to waking the dead similar to this: John 11:43When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”

Word Origin: Derived from the verb κελεύω (keleuō), meaning "to command" or "to order."
Usage: The term "keleusma" refers to a command or a shout, often used in a military or authoritative context. It conveys the idea of a loud, authoritative order that prompts immediate action. In the New Testament, it is used to describe the commanding shout associated with the return of Christ.

And Rev 4:1 "come up"
Word Origin: From the preposition ἀνά (ana, meaning "up") and the verb βαίνω (baino, meaning "to go" or "to walk").
Usage: The Greek verb ἀναβαίνω (anabainó) primarily means "to go up" or "to ascend." It is used in the New Testament to describe both physical and metaphorical ascents. Physically, it can refer to going up a mountain, ascending into a higher place, or even rising from a lower position. Metaphorically, it can describe spiritual ascension or the act of rising in status or understanding.


Clearly it was a vision behind him, symbolizing the 7 churches, nothing there about seeing what's in heaven. Rev 1: 10On the Lord’s day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, ...12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,

Rev 1:12-16 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

There are many details of Jesus in the area of His throne in Heaven. Where was John when seeing and hearing Rev 1:12-16?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There's nothing similar to the "cry of command" of 1 Th 4:16 which is the word "keleusma" which is used only once and refers to waking the dead similar to this: John 11:43When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”

Word Origin: Derived from the verb κελεύω (keleuō), meaning "to command" or "to order."
Usage: The term "keleusma" refers to a command or a shout, often used in a military or authoritative context. It conveys the idea of a loud, authoritative order that prompts immediate action. In the New Testament, it is used to describe the commanding shout associated with the return of Christ.

And Rev 4:1 "come up"
Word Origin: From the preposition ἀνά (ana, meaning "up") and the verb βαίνω (baino, meaning "to go" or "to walk").
Usage: The Greek verb ἀναβαίνω (anabainó) primarily means "to go up" or "to ascend." It is used in the New Testament to describe both physical and metaphorical ascents. Physically, it can refer to going up a mountain, ascending into a higher place, or even rising from a lower position. Metaphorically, it can describe spiritual ascension or the act of rising in status or understanding.


Clearly it was a vision behind him, symbolizing the 7 churches, nothing there about seeing what's in heaven. Rev 1: 10On the Lord’s day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, ...12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,

In Rev 1:9, John was on Patmos.

In Rev 1:12-16, his vision showed him Heaven and he wrote Rev 1:12–16.

John never left Patmos when immersed in the vision that was showed to him by one angel. All scenes in his vision were written about after seeing and hearing what was showed to him by one angel. John attests to the foregoing in Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Rev 1:12-16 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

There are many details of Jesus in the area of His throne in Heaven in Rev 1:12-16. Where was John during Rev 1:12-16?

It's almost all a description of Christ in His majesty similar to the transfiguration where His face shone like the sun Matt 17:2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.

Jesus explains these 2 mysteries and they're not in heaven.
12...And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,
16He held in His right hand seven stars,
Rev 1:: 20This is the mystery of the seven stars you saw in My right hand and of the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

I think there's a disconnect between our definitions of what a vision is. I believe that it is a supernatural and spiritual whereby the natural man is in a trance and therefore the natural hearing, seeing and moving are apart from the vision itself like being asleep and having a dream where the environment one is in has nothing to do with what's in the dream.
Vision defined: Strong's Greek: 3706. ὅρασις (horasis) -- Vision, sight
Trance defined: Strong's Greek: 1611. ἔκστασις (ekstasis) -- Ecstasy, trance, amazement

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It's almost all a description of Christ in His majesty similar to the transfiguration where His face shone like the sun Matt 17:2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.

Jesus explains these 2 mysteries and they're not in heaven.
12...And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,
16He held in His right hand seven stars,
Rev 1:: 20This is the mystery of the seven stars you saw in My right hand and of the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

I think there's a disconnect between our definitions of what a vision is. I believe that it is a supernatural and spiritual whereby the natural man is in a trance and therefore the natural hearing, seeing and moving are apart from the vision itself like being asleep and having a dream where the environment one is in has nothing to do with what's in the dream.
Vision defined: Strong's Greek: 3706. ὅρασις (horasis) -- Vision, sight
Trance defined: Strong's Greek: 1611. ἔκστασις (ekstasis) -- Ecstasy, trance, amazement

The transfiguration of Jesus has NOTHING to do with the vision SHOWN to John in Rev 1:12-16. Those verses are about a scene inside of Heaven. In the transfiguration, Jesus was outside and on a mountain (Matt 17:1-2).

One angel SHOWED John ALL of Rev (Rev 22:8) by way of scenes that played out right in front of John.

John SAW and HEARD each scene that one angel SHOWED to him. John was fully conscious and aware and ABLE TO WRITE about what he was seeing and hearing, as he was seeing and hearing it (as addressed in Rev 10:4).

John never left Patmos while writing Rev. He was SHOWN each scene by one angel, and he wrote exactly what he saw and heard.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

The transfiguration of Jesus has NOTHING to do with the vision SHOWN to John in Rev 1:12-16. Those verses are about a scene inside of Heaven. In the transfiguration, Jesus was outside and on a mountain (Matt 17:1-2).

One angel SHOWED John ALL of Rev (Rev 22:8) by way of scenes that played out right in front of John.

John SAW and HEARD each scene that one angel SHOWED to him. John was fully conscious and aware and ABLE TO WRITE about what he was seeing and hearing, as he was seeing and hearing it (as addressed in Rev 10:4).

John never left Patmos while writing Rev. He was SHOWN each scene by one angel, and he wrote exactly what he saw and heard.

What it proves is that Jesus wasn't in heaven on His throne when His face "shone like the sun".
And no, One angel did not show John everything. It was the angel of Rev 21:9 who showed John "these things" which were different than the other things he had seen. Anyone can see that if they read from 21:9 to 22:8

If John can write during his vision, then all the following can take place just as easily. God's hands aren't tied by John being on Patmos.
John may have been on Patmos, but it doesn't mean he was chained to it and God would be helpless to take him in the Spirit anywhere He wants to. God opens doors that no man can shut. Just look at Peter's rescue from prison with guards on either side of him.
It's only John who is told to "come up here", there's no one else there to hear it. And verse 2 immediately shows him in heaven before the throne.
Rev 4:1After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”2At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it.

Here the Lord is having John taken in the Spirit by an angel to the wilderness after obeying the command to come.
Rev 17:1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns

The Lord can have John taken to a high mountain overlooking Jerusalem any way He wishes to, as He did. The angel also commands John to "come" and after John obeys, and is carried away in the Spirit.
Rev 21:9Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What it proves is that Jesus wasn't in heaven on His throne when His face "shone like the sun".
And no, One angel did not show John everything. It was the angel of Rev 21:9 who showed John "these things" which were different than the other things he had seen. Anyone can see that if they read from 21:9 to 22:8

If John can write during his vision, then all the following can take place just as easily. God's hands aren't tied by John being on Patmos.
John may have been on Patmos, but it doesn't mean he was chained to it and God would be helpless to take him in the Spirit anywhere He wants to. God opens doors that no man can shut. Just look at Peter's rescue from prison with guards on either side of him.
It's only John who is told to "come up here", there's no one else there to hear it. And verse 2 immediately shows him in heaven before the throne.
Rev 4:1After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”2At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it.

Here the Lord is having John taken in the Spirit by an angel to the wilderness after obeying the command to come.
Rev 17:1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns

The Lord can have John taken to a high mountain overlooking Jerusalem any way He wishes to, as He did. The angel also commands John to "come" and after John obeys, and is carried away in the Spirit.
Rev 21:9Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Rev 16:1 (NIV): Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

John’s use of “I heard” is about what he heard in a scene that what was shown to him by one angel.

Rev 17:1-3 (NIV): 1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns

Rev 16:1 and 17:1-3 follow the same pattern as Rev 4:1-2. John was being shown scenes that he wrote up as Rev 4:1-2. John did not go to Heaven in Rev 4:1. He was on Patmos being shown future scenes by one angel. The same goes for Rev 16:1 and 17:1-3. Before “Come, I will show,” in Rev 17:2, John was being shown his vision in Rev 16:1. After “Come, I will show,” John used the phrase, “I saw,” meaning he was just shown the scenes in Rev 17 while on Patmos.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Rev 16:1 (NIV): Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

John’s use of “I heard” is about what he heard in a scene that what was shown to him by one angel.

Rev 17:1-3 (NIV): 1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns

Rev 16:1 and 17:1-3 follow the same pattern as Rev 4:1-2. John was being shown scenes that he wrote up as Rev 4:1-2. John did not go to Heaven in Rev 4:1. He was on Patmos being shown future scenes by one angel. The same goes for Rev 16:1 and 17:1-3. Before “Come, I will show,” in Rev 17:2, John was being shown his vision in Rev 16:1. After “Come, I will show,” John used the phrase, “I saw,” meaning he was just shown the scenes in Rev 17 while on Patmos.

John's not seeing or hearing things physically in the vision. The things he's seeing and hearing aren't there on Patmos, their in the spiritual realm. That's why he's in the Spirit because what he's seeing isn't there in the physical realm.
In chapter 4 of Rev, John's in heaven seeing the vision from heaven, whereas in Ezekiel chapter 1, Ezekiel sees the same vision looking up to the throne in heaven. And what the "vision of the rapture" is missing, is a vision of the rapture. John's not having a vision of a command. Rather he obeyed the command and found himself in heaven seeing a vision of heaven. Something like, I saw a multitude being taken up to heaven. But no, it's just John.