Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So, then, is the first half of your "7 year tribulation", just every day trials and tribulations per your definition? Then also, per your definition of "tribulation", the church has been going through "every day trials and tribulations" from the beginning. In fact, it says that the church must go through many tribulations right up until the time they enter the kingdom of God.



What, of course, you don't say is that you took a few words out of context and created your own scripture no where found in the bible. I've maintained all along when in context that the personal pronoun "you" replaces the specific antecedent noun "church in Philadelphia" in that paragraph. They alone are the ones who would be kept from the hour of trial/test/temptation and Jesus tells them it was because of what they had already done. That's why the past tense is used. "because you have kept", It doesn't say: "because they will keep" as would be the case in a future church. And to prove that, Jesus declares in the present indicative: "I am coming soon" I am assuming, like all futurists, you don't believe Him.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it say any fulfillment of the prophecies would take place in the distant future, other than the gospel and the church last forever..
Ephesians 3:21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. The only thing that was ever prophesied to end was Old Covenant Israel.

God's judgements are those which would be poured out on Israel and were poured out on Israel for the 3-1/2 years that lasted from ad 66 to ad 70 when God sent his armies to burn the city of the Pharisees down.
Matthew 22:1Once again, Jesus spoke to them(the Pharisees) in parables: 2“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to call those he had invited to the banquet, but they refused to come......
7The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city. 8Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited were not worthy. 9Go therefore to the crossroads and invite to the banquet as many as you can find.’
We can clearly see that the wedding of the Lamb takes place right after the Romans burned Jerusalem down in 70ad.

The first half of the 7-year Trib is detailed in Rev 6-10. Rev 6:3-4 is the 2nd seal judgment that causes simultaneous wars all over the world. Rev 6:8 proves the 4th seal judgment will kill 25% of the world’s population in a matter of months.

The first half of the Trib is pure hell.

Rev 3:10 is in the future. Jesus said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial…” “I will” is future tense. That promise is about keeping all believers from the Trib. We know that is also true from Jesus’ next statement that the hour of trial will only “try those who dwell on the earth.” Those are the unbelievers who will be left behind after the pre-Trib rapture in Rev 4:1.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

The first half of the 7-year Trib is detailed in Rev 6-10. Rev 6:3-4 is the 2nd seal judgment that causes simultaneous wars all over the world. Rev 6:8 proves the 4th seal judgment will kill 25% of the world’s population in a matter of months.

The first half of the Trib is pure hell.

Rev 3:10 is in the future. Jesus said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial” “I will” is future tense. That promise is about keeping all believers from the Trib. We know that is also true from Jesus’ statement that the hour of trial will only “try those who dwell on the earth.” Those are the unbelievers who will be left behind after the pre-Trib rapture in Rev 4:1.

The church was already in the tribulation and was already going through pure hell. Nero was applying tar to Christians and using them as torches for his garden parties, and instead of a stadium full of football fans, they had stadiums full for the grand sport of feeding Christians and their families to various animals.

1. Persecution: While it is a common myth that Christians used the catacombs primarily for secret worship to avoid persecution, they were more often used as burial sites. However, during times of intense persecution, such as under Emperor Nero in the first century, Christians may have sought refuge there.

The very word "martyr" developed after the bible was written as the Greek word "martus" meant eye or hearing witness. It would be nonsensical to say: "out of the mouth of two or three martyrs let every word be established".
The point being, that there were so many Christians dying for their faith at that time, the word "witness" turned into "martyr".

When it comes to the "future tense" in Rev 3:10 you're nullifying it's contextual timeframe and then placing it out into eternity making it meaningless. Without a contextual timeframe, the future tense just drifts off into eternity and seeing that it's always stays in the future tense.

Your own doctrine says there will be a multitude of believers who get saved in the great tribulation. Either there are a multitude of believers who get saved and are in the "great tribulation" or there are "no believers in the "great tribulation". Which is it? And why would God leave no mature believers to disciple them? Think about it, Jesus spent 3-1/2 years with the apostles and disciples before He left them. And according to dispensationalist doctrine, the Holy Spirit won't even be there. There's no new birth without the Holy Spirit, so what kind of believers are they?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The church was already in the tribulation and was already going through pure hell. Nero was applying tar to Christians and using them as torches for his garden parties, and instead of a stadium full of football fans, they had stadiums full for the grand sport of feeding Christians and their families to various animals.

1. Persecution: While it is a common myth that Christians used the catacombs primarily for secret worship to avoid persecution, they were more often used as burial sites. However, during times of intense persecution, such as under Emperor Nero in the first century, Christians may have sought refuge there.

The very word "martyr" developed after the bible was written as the Greek word "martus" meant eye or hearing witness. It would be nonsensical to say: "out of the mouth of two or three martyrs let every word be established".
The point being, that there were so many Christians dying for their faith at that time, the word "witness" turned into "martyr".

When it comes to the "future tense" in Rev 3:10 you're nullifying it's contextual timeframe and then placing it out into eternity making it meaningless. Without a contextual timeframe, the future tense just drifts off into eternity and seeing that it's always stays in the future tense.

Your own doctrine says there will be a multitude of believers who get saved in the great tribulation. Either there are a multitude of believers who get saved and are in the "great tribulation" or there are "no believers in the "great tribulation". Which is it? And why would God leave no mature believers to disciple them? Think about it, Jesus spent 3-1/2 years with the apostles and disciples before He left them. And according to dispensationalist doctrine, the Holy Spirit won't even be there. There's no new birth without the Holy Spirit, so what kind of believers are they?

Ed, if you would read Rev 6 through Rev 16, you would learn of each of the 21 judgments of wrath by God (seven seals; seven trumpets; and seven bowls). None of them have been fulfilled. There is obviously tribulation in the life of Christians throughout history and even to this day. But, the 21 judgments of God's wrath are in a class of severity by themselves. For instance, locusts have plagued mankind forever in some parts of the world. Yet, the locusts in the Trib (Rev 9:3-10) are unlike all others in history. Wild beasts have killed humans throughout history. But, in Rev 6:8, they go on a brutal rampage all over the world killing millions of unbelievers everywhere. You cannot compare the 21 judgments of God's wrath in the Trib with any other tribulation in history or now.

Jesus' words in Rev 3:10: "I will keep you from the hour of trial," will remain in the future tense until they are fulfilled. The pre-Trib rapture (Rev 4:1) has not occurred. Therefore, the 7-year Trib has not started (Rev 6:1-2).

The great multitude of new converts from the Trib are provably former unbelievers. Rev 7:16 speaks of the wrath of God they were subjected to in the Trib. Rev 7:16 (ESV):
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

Famine in the Trib starts in the 4th seal, in Rev 6:8. The fourth bowl is allowed to scorch people with fire, in Rev 16:8. Therefore, the 144k are active in the Trib from the early seals to the bowl judgments in Rev 16. The 144k facilitate the conversion of millions of new believers. All those new converts become martyrs for their testimony of Jesus Christ. They are the souls under the altar beginning in Rev 6:9. Their "fellow servants" (Rev 6:11) are found in the great tribulation (2nd half of the 7-year Trib) in Rev 20:4. All those martyrs are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are next seen in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17, thanking God for their salvation (Rev 7:10). The 144k (Rev 7:1-8) are responsible for the greatest revival in the Trib, by the tremendous grace of God Almighty.

There are no believers who enter the Trib. That is assured by 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17 and Rev 4:1. There are billions of unbelievers who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture. Those unbelievers are collectively referred to by Jesus (in Rev 3:10) as "those who dwell on the earth." Millions of them become new converts. They are the "great multitude" in Rev 7:9.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Ed, if you would read Rev 6 through Rev 16, you would learn of each of the 21 judgments of wrath by God (seven seals; seven trumpets; and seven bowls). None of them have been fulfilled. There is obviously tribulation in the life of Christians throughout history and even to this day. But, the 21 judgments of God's wrath are in a class of severity by themselves. For instance, locusts have plagued mankind forever in some parts of the world. Yet, the locusts in the Trib (Rev 9:3-10) are unlike all others in history. Wild beasts have killed humans throughout history. But, in Rev 6:8, they go on a brutal rampage all over the world killing millions of unbelievers everywhere. You cannot compare the 21 judgments of God's wrath in the Trib with any other tribulation in history or now.

Jesus' words in Rev 3:10: "I will keep you from the hour of trial," will remain in the future tense until they are fulfilled. The pre-Trib rapture (Rev 4:1) has not occurred. Therefore, the 7-year Trib has not started (Rev 6:1-2).

The great multitude of new converts from the Trib are provably former unbelievers. Rev 7:16 speaks of the wrath of God they were subjected to in the Trib. Rev 7:16 (ESV):
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

Famine in the Trib starts in the 4th seal, in Rev 6:8. The fourth bowl is allowed to scorch people with fire, in Rev 16:8. Therefore, the 144k are active in the Trib from the early seals to the bowl judgments in Rev 16. The 144k facilitate the conversion of millions of new believers. All those new converts become martyrs for their testimony of Jesus Christ. They are the souls under the altar beginning in Rev 6:9. Their "fellow servants" (Rev 6:11) are found in the great tribulation (2nd half of the 7-year Trib) in Rev 20:4. All those martyrs are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are next seen in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17, thanking God for their salvation (Rev 7:10). The 144k (Rev 7:1-8) are responsible for the greatest revival in the Trib, by the tremendous grace of God Almighty.

There are no believers who enter the Trib. That is assured by 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17 and Rev 4:1. There are billions of unbelievers who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture. Those unbelievers are collectively referred to by Jesus (in Rev 3:10) as "those who dwell on the earth." Millions of them become new converts. They are the "great multitude" in Rev 7:9.

This is what Jesus told the daughters of Jerusalem. This is in reference to the curses if they broke the everlasting covenant.

Luke 23:28But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’ 31For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?”
Deuteronomy 28:18
The fruit of your womb will be cursed, as well as the produce of your land, the calves of your herds, and the lambs of your flocks.
6The punishment of the daughter of my people
is greater than that of Sodom,
which was overthrown in an instant
without a hand turned to help her.

Ezekiel 16:48-50
As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did as you and your daughters have done. / Now this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed, and complacent; they did not help the poor and needy. / Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them, as you have seen.

Matthew 11:23-24
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to heaven? No, you will be brought down to Hades! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. / But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

All I can say is that you better pray real hard to get the strength to fly out of here and stand before the Son of Man. No pre tribulation rapture for thee.

Luke 21:34“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Mark 13:
24“But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26And then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.

28“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 32But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is what Jesus told the daughters of Jerusalem. This is in reference to the curses if they broke the everlasting covenant.

Luke 23:28But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’ 31For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?”
Deuteronomy 28:18
The fruit of your womb will be cursed, as well as the produce of your land, the calves of your herds, and the lambs of your flocks.
6The punishment of the daughter of my people
is greater than that of Sodom,
which was overthrown in an instant
without a hand turned to help her.

Ezekiel 16:48-50
As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did as you and your daughters have done. / Now this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed, and complacent; they did not help the poor and needy. / Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them, as you have seen.

Matthew 11:23-24
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to heaven? No, you will be brought down to Hades! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. / But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

All I can say is that you better pray real hard to get the strength to fly out of here and stand before the Son of Man. No pre tribulation rapture for thee.

Luke 21:34“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Mark 13:
24“But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26And then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.

28“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 32But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

For the most part, you are quoting verses about isolated instances of tribulation. Like I said earlier, there is tribulation in the lives of Christians throughout history. None of it compares to the 21 judgements of God's wrath in the Trib.

Luke 21:34-36 are about Jews. They are on a separate track throughout the Trib.

Mark 13:24-27 are about Matt 24:29, the end of the 7-year Trib.

You can't show greater tribulation than that in the Trib. You also can't find any of greater duration. Please read Rev 6-16 and you will see that what I claim is true.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

For the most part, you are quoting verses about isolated instances of tribulation. Like I said earlier, there is tribulation in the lives of Christians throughout history. None of it compares to the 21 judgements of God's wrath in the Trib.

Luke 21:34-36 are about Jews. They are on a separate track throughout the Trib.

Mark 13:24-27 are about Matt 24:29, the end of the 7-year Trib.

You can't show greater tribulation than that in the Trib. You also can't find any of greater duration. Please read Rev 6-16 and you will see that what I claim is true.

Jeffrey, storytelling is not a response. You need to prove your assertions with clearly stated scripture. Brushing aside the tribulations that God reveals as if it's every day life diminishes to nothing what they were going through. If that's the case, why even mention their tribulations a all?
For instance, Paul gives 3 reasons why it would be wise not to get married unless they are burning with passion. And if they are married, they should be as though not married. Who's the last preacher who ever preached the following using all three points?
1. Current distress
2. Appointed time has grown very short
3. Present form of this world is passing away

1 Corinthians 7:25Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26I think that in view of the present distress it is good for a person to remain as he is. 27Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. 29This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, 30and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, 31and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

IS passing away-not will pass away, otherwise what would be the point of Paul' message at that time? The Old Covenant world of Israel was passing away, while the New Covenant world of the Israel of God was being made manifest. It is the New Creation in Christ. 2 Cor 1:20For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.
If all of the Promises of God are fulfilled in Him, then why would anyone look for promises to be fulfilled outside of Him?
Wrath, on the other hand is fulfilled outside of Christ.

The greatest criminals against God in history would have to suffer the greatest wrath in history. And what possible crime would ever come close to the absolute rejection and murder of God's only begotten Son? While at the same time saying "we have no king but Caesar" and "His blood be upon us and our children"? When they said that Caesar was their king, it came with the following moniker.

• Pontifex Maximus:
  • As the chief priest of the Roman state religion, this title underscored the emperor’s religious authority and his role in maintaining the favor of the gods. (Think mother of harlots

Of course I've read the whole book of Revelation over and over again and don't see it your way at all. This is John's version of the Olivet discourse. Instead of taking it out of the context prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, you transport the whole thing into the 21st century, causing futurists the literally evolve the text to comply with their doctrine, instead of their doctrine complying with the scripture.
I mean just thinking that "nuclear war, microchips, tanks, helicopters, etc. makes it pointless for those to whom it was written, people who would have no clue what eschatology was talking about, at the same time God's telling them to "keep the words of the prophecy of the book." How could they if they had no clue what it meant?
Or why would He tell them this in the present tense? Rev 13:This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.
Your doctrine has God telling people things to do that would be impossible for them to do.

It seems the following warning has absolutely no meaning to futurists:
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Or in 1 Cor 4:6 where Paul is teaching them "not go beyond what is written" For instance where you claim that there are only "new converts" in the great tribulation. You're assuming something based solely on your doctrine and then elevating it to the level of scripture itself.
On top of that, your doctrine uses arbitrary rules of grammar that no one has ever seen. In other words, even though there are many websites that explain rules of grammar, your imagination doesn't want to be subject to such rules as they would negate your doctrine.
However, Paul was adamant about grammar being correct when he emphasized the difference between "seed" singular and "seeds" plural.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jeffrey, storytelling is not a response. You need to prove your assertions with clearly stated scripture. Brushing aside the tribulations that God reveals as if it's every day life diminishes to nothing what they were going through. If that's the case, why even mention their tribulations a all?
For instance, Paul gives 3 reasons why it would be wise not to get married unless they are burning with passion. And if they are married, they should be as though not married. Who's the last preacher who ever preached the following using all three points?
1. Current distress
2. Appointed time has grown very short
3. Present form of this world is passing away

1 Corinthians 7:25Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26I think that in view of the present distress it is good for a person to remain as he is. 27Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. 29This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, 30and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, 31and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

IS passing away-not will pass away, otherwise what would be the point of Paul' message at that time? The Old Covenant world of Israel was passing away, while the New Covenant world of the Israel of God was being made manifest. It is the New Creation in Christ. 2 Cor 1:20For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.
If all of the Promises of God are fulfilled in Him, then why would anyone look for promises to be fulfilled outside of Him?
Wrath, on the other hand is fulfilled outside of Christ.

The greatest criminals against God in history would have to suffer the greatest wrath in history. And what possible crime would ever come close to the absolute rejection and murder of God's only begotten Son? While at the same time saying "we have no king but Caesar" and "His blood be upon us and our children"? When they said that Caesar was their king, it came with the following moniker.

• Pontifex Maximus:
  • As the chief priest of the Roman state religion, this title underscored the emperor’s religious authority and his role in maintaining the favor of the gods. (Think mother of harlots

Of course I've read the whole book of Revelation over and over again and don't see it your way at all. This is John's version of the Olivet discourse. Instead of taking it out of the context prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, you transport the whole thing into the 21st century, causing futurists the literally evolve the text to comply with their doctrine, instead of their doctrine complying with the scripture.
I mean just thinking that "nuclear war, microchips, tanks, helicopters, etc. makes it pointless for those to whom it was written, people who would have no clue what eschatology was talking about, at the same time God's telling them to "keep the words of the prophecy of the book." How could they if they had no clue what it meant?
Or why would He tell them this in the present tense? Rev 13:This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.
Your doctrine has God telling people things to do that would be impossible for them to do.

It seems the following warning has absolutely no meaning to futurists:
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Or in 1 Cor 4:6 where Paul is teaching them "not go beyond what is written" For instance where you claim that there are only "new converts" in the great tribulation. You're assuming something based solely on your doctrine and then elevating it to the level of scripture itself.
On top of that, your doctrine uses arbitrary rules of grammar that no one has ever seen. In other words, even though there are many websites that explain rules of grammar, your imagination doesn't want to be subject to such rules as they would negate your doctrine.
However, Paul was adamant about grammar being correct when he emphasized the difference between "seed" singular and "seeds" plural.

I have referenced verses that prove the pre-Trib rapture, with Rev 4:1 being the main one.

I have proven with verses that no believers enter the Trib. An additional one would be Rev 6:15-17. The entire planet’s population is cited, and all behave as only unbelievers would do so.

I have proven in Rev 3:10 there are two groups cited. “You” are believers, and “those” are unbelievers. “You” is kept from the Trib. “Those” are the unbelievers who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture in Rev 4:1.

You keep on citing verses that have no relevance to our discussion. The wrath of God expressed in the seven seals, trumpets and bowls is unequaled in history. If you have read the Bible many times, then why do you ignore Jesus’ words in Matt 24:21? Here’s Matt 24:21 (ESV): For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jeffrey, storytelling is not a response. You need to prove your assertions with clearly stated scripture. Brushing aside the tribulations that God reveals as if it's every day life diminishes to nothing what they were going through. If that's the case, why even mention their tribulations a all?
For instance, Paul gives 3 reasons why it would be wise not to get married unless they are burning with passion. And if they are married, they should be as though not married. Who's the last preacher who ever preached the following using all three points?
1. Current distress
2. Appointed time has grown very short
3. Present form of this world is passing away

1 Corinthians 7:25Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26I think that in view of the present distress it is good for a person to remain as he is. 27Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. 29This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, 30and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, 31and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

IS passing away-not will pass away, otherwise what would be the point of Paul' message at that time? The Old Covenant world of Israel was passing away, while the New Covenant world of the Israel of God was being made manifest. It is the New Creation in Christ. 2 Cor 1:20For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.
If all of the Promises of God are fulfilled in Him, then why would anyone look for promises to be fulfilled outside of Him?
Wrath, on the other hand is fulfilled outside of Christ.

The greatest criminals against God in history would have to suffer the greatest wrath in history. And what possible crime would ever come close to the absolute rejection and murder of God's only begotten Son? While at the same time saying "we have no king but Caesar" and "His blood be upon us and our children"? When they said that Caesar was their king, it came with the following moniker.

• Pontifex Maximus:
  • As the chief priest of the Roman state religion, this title underscored the emperor’s religious authority and his role in maintaining the favor of the gods. (Think mother of harlots

Of course I've read the whole book of Revelation over and over again and don't see it your way at all. This is John's version of the Olivet discourse. Instead of taking it out of the context prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, you transport the whole thing into the 21st century, causing futurists the literally evolve the text to comply with their doctrine, instead of their doctrine complying with the scripture.
I mean just thinking that "nuclear war, microchips, tanks, helicopters, etc. makes it pointless for those to whom it was written, people who would have no clue what eschatology was talking about, at the same time God's telling them to "keep the words of the prophecy of the book." How could they if they had no clue what it meant?
Or why would He tell them this in the present tense? Rev 13:This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.
Your doctrine has God telling people things to do that would be impossible for them to do.

It seems the following warning has absolutely no meaning to futurists:
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Or in 1 Cor 4:6 where Paul is teaching them "not go beyond what is written" For instance where you claim that there are only "new converts" in the great tribulation. You're assuming something based solely on your doctrine and then elevating it to the level of scripture itself.
On top of that, your doctrine uses arbitrary rules of grammar that no one has ever seen. In other words, even though there are many websites that explain rules of grammar, your imagination doesn't want to be subject to such rules as they would negate your doctrine.
However, Paul was adamant about grammar being correct when he emphasized the difference between "seed" singular and "seeds" plural.

The Trib in Matt 24:21 proves it is the most hellish tribulation of all time. You keep trying to make apostle John wrong.

This is the biblical sequence: the pre-Trib rapture happens (Rev 4:1); all hell breaks loose (1 Th 5:2-3). Why? Rev 6:1-2 just occurred. And on and on the Trib goes, for seven years of the most hellish tribulation that will ever occur.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The Trib in Matt 24:21 proves it is the most hellish tribulation of all time. You keep trying to make apostle John wrong.

This is the biblical sequence: the pre-Trib rapture happens (Rev 4:1); all hell breaks loose (1 Th 5:2-3). Why? Rev 6:1-2 just occurred. And on and on the Trib goes, for seven years of the most hellish tribulation that will ever occur.

Ed, have you ever read biblical commentary? I comment on verses I cite because they are verses you either don’t cite or don’t properly understand.

True or false? Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

True or false? The great multitude in Rev 7:9-17 is millions of new converts from the Trib.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Ed, have you ever read biblical commentary? I comment on verses I cite because they are verses you either don’t cite or don’t properly understand.

True or false? Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

True or false? The great multitude in Rev 7:9-17 is millions of new converts from the Trib.

Your either seriously kidding me, or you just haven't paid attention to what I said. Rev 7:1-4
You can read the dispensational commentary linked below to see what I believe about 4:1 except that John is somehow a type of rapture. I've also added a link to many commentaries and see if any of them believe 4:1 is the rapture of the church. Good luck.
Here's Rev 11 which is the resurrection and the judgement which you claimed happened in 4:1 and also when the church would enter the kingdom of God

Rev11:
18The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

Here's a dispensational commentary of Rev 4:1 followed by older commentaries mostly pre 1900. One commentary -the Greek Expositors Commentary" uses the word "rapture" in the same way you use "rapt" with reference to John's being in the Spirit.
Revelation 4 Commentary | Precept Austin
Revelation 4:1 Commentaries: After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

The Trib in Matt 24:21 proves it is the most hellish tribulation of all time. You keep trying to make apostle John wrong.

This is the biblical sequence: the pre-Trib rapture happens (Rev 4:1); all hell breaks loose (1 Th 5:2-3). Why? Rev 6:1-2 just occurred. And on and on the Trib goes, for seven years of the most hellish tribulation that will ever occur.

Exodus 10: 14The locusts came up over all the land of Egypt and settled on the whole country of Egypt, such a dense swarm of locusts as had never been before, nor ever will be again.
Exodus 11:There shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there has never been, nor ever will be again.
Joel 2:
2a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
nor will be again after them
through the years of all generations.

Ezekiel 5:
8Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Behold, I Myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will execute judgments among you in the sight of the nations. 9Because of all your abominations, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again. 10As a result, fathers among you will eat their sons, and sons will eat their fathers. I will execute judgments against you and scatter all your remnant to every wind.’ See Deuteronomy 32 concerning Israel's last days.
11Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable idols and abominations, I Myself will withdraw My favor; I will not look upon you with pity, nor will I spare you.
12A third of your people will die by plague or be consumed by famine within you, a third will fall by the sword outside your walls, and a third I will scatter to every wind and unleash a sword behind them.

Jesus says the following to the Apostles after verse 21:
Matthew 24:34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
So, do you believe what Jesus clearly states or do you have to change what He says before you can believe Him?

Have you remembered to update the bible here and what do you replace it with?
Revelation 6:6.....“A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius,
Denarius coins were the standard silver currency of ancient Rome, used from roughly the 3rd century BCE until the 3rd century CE. They are no longer used as legal tender today.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your either seriously kidding me, or you just haven't paid attention to what I said. Rev 7:1-4
You can read the dispensational commentary linked below to see what I believe about 4:1 except that John is somehow a type of rapture. I've also added a link to many commentaries and see if any of them believe 4:1 is the rapture of the church. Good luck.
Here's Rev 11 which is the resurrection and the judgement which you claimed happened in 4:1 and also when the church would enter the kingdom of God

Rev11:
18The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

Here's a dispensational commentary of Rev 4:1 followed by older commentaries mostly pre 1900. One commentary -the Greek Expositors Commentary" uses the word "rapture" in the same way you use "rapt" with reference to John's being in the Spirit.
Revelation 4 Commentary | Precept Austin
Revelation 4:1 Commentaries: After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

Exodus 10: 14The locusts came up over all the land of Egypt and settled on the whole country of Egypt, such a dense swarm of locusts as had never been before, nor ever will be again.
Exodus 11:There shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there has never been, nor ever will be again.
Joel 2:
2a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
nor will be again after them
through the years of all generations.

Ezekiel 5:
8Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Behold, I Myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will execute judgments among you in the sight of the nations. 9Because of all your abominations, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again. 10As a result, fathers among you will eat their sons, and sons will eat their fathers. I will execute judgments against you and scatter all your remnant to every wind.’ See Deuteronomy 32 concerning Israel's last days.
11Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable idols and abominations, I Myself will withdraw My favor; I will not look upon you with pity, nor will I spare you.
12A third of your people will die by plague or be consumed by famine within you, a third will fall by the sword outside your walls, and a third I will scatter to every wind and unleash a sword behind them.

Jesus says the following to the Apostles after verse 21:
Matthew 24:34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
So, do you believe what Jesus clearly states or do you have to change what He says before you can believe Him?

Have you remembered to update the bible here and what do you replace it with?
Revelation 6:6.....“A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius,
Denarius coins were the standard silver currency of ancient Rome, used from roughly the 3rd century BCE until the 3rd century CE. They are no longer used as legal tender today.

You are violating the timeline of Rev. Rev 4:1 occurs before the Trib starts (Rev 6:1-2). Rev 4:1 occurs pre-Trib, in total alignment with Jesus’ promise in Rev 3:10 (ESV): “I will keep you from the hour of trial …”

The “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib that begins at Rev 6:1-2.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your either seriously kidding me, or you just haven't paid attention to what I said. Rev 7:1-4
You can read the dispensational commentary linked below to see what I believe about 4:1 except that John is somehow a type of rapture. I've also added a link to many commentaries and see if any of them believe 4:1 is the rapture of the church. Good luck.
Here's Rev 11 which is the resurrection and the judgement which you claimed happened in 4:1 and also when the church would enter the kingdom of God

Rev11:
18The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

Here's a dispensational commentary of Rev 4:1 followed by older commentaries mostly pre 1900. One commentary -the Greek Expositors Commentary" uses the word "rapture" in the same way you use "rapt" with reference to John's being in the Spirit.
Revelation 4 Commentary | Precept Austin
Revelation 4:1 Commentaries: After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

Exodus 10: 14The locusts came up over all the land of Egypt and settled on the whole country of Egypt, such a dense swarm of locusts as had never been before, nor ever will be again.
Exodus 11:There shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there has never been, nor ever will be again.
Joel 2:
2a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
nor will be again after them
through the years of all generations.

Ezekiel 5:
8Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Behold, I Myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will execute judgments among you in the sight of the nations. 9Because of all your abominations, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again. 10As a result, fathers among you will eat their sons, and sons will eat their fathers. I will execute judgments against you and scatter all your remnant to every wind.’ See Deuteronomy 32 concerning Israel's last days.
11Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable idols and abominations, I Myself will withdraw My favor; I will not look upon you with pity, nor will I spare you.
12A third of your people will die by plague or be consumed by famine within you, a third will fall by the sword outside your walls, and a third I will scatter to every wind and unleash a sword behind them.

Jesus says the following to the Apostles after verse 21:
Matthew 24:34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
So, do you believe what Jesus clearly states or do you have to change what He says before you can believe Him?

Have you remembered to update the bible here and what do you replace it with?
Revelation 6:6.....“A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius,
Denarius coins were the standard silver currency of ancient Rome, used from roughly the 3rd century BCE until the 3rd century CE. They are no longer used as legal tender today.

Ed, I’ve done my own research on Rev 4:1, and I know the truth. I don’t need commentaries about it.

Rev 1:12-16 prove John could see Heaven, in great detail, from Patmos. His vision was like being there in Heaven. Yet, he clearly was on Patmos the whole time.

Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove John was shown EVERYTHING about Rev by one angel. That doesn’t mean other angels weren’t involved. But, one angel was in charge of all that John was shown and how he was able to see it.

The proof is in John’s repeated words throughout Rev: “I heard” and “I saw.” He heard and saw EVERYTHING about Rev in his vision. There is no way he took part in the rapture in Rev 4:1. He “saw” and “heard” all about Rev 4:1 just as he heard and saw EVERYTHING else in Rev.

Therefore, it is proven by John’s own words that Rev 4:1 will occur in the future as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, in perfect alignment with Jesus’ promise in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you from the hour of trial.”

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Ed, I’ve done my own research on Rev 4:1, and I know the truth. I don’t need commentaries about it.

Good for you, then why'd you ask if I read any commentaries?

Rev 1:12-16 prove John could see Heaven, in great detail, from Patmos. His vision was like being there in Heaven. Yet, he clearly was on Patmos the whole time.

If you don't believe he traveled in the Spirit, then don't believe it. I do. He was always physically on the Isle of Patmos as I've said ad nauseum.

Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove John was shown EVERYTHING about Rev by one angel. That doesn’t mean other angels weren’t involved. But, one angel was in charge of all that John was shown and how he was able to see it.

.Here's my first post about it which is what you're saying now.

• Post #710
• Jan 13, 2025

.."His angel"(Perhaps Michael who would stand up in great tribulation Dan 12:1). How could he be anyone less than the chief of angels(the archangel) who delegates authority over other angels. Here are some verses that show other angels "show and tell". Revelation 14: 6Then I saw another...

Therefore, it is proven by John’s own words that Rev 4:1 will occur in the future as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, in perfect alignment with Jesus’ promise in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you from the hour of trial.”

Yes, it would occur in the future of the church in Philadelphia(any correct understanding of grammar tells us that), and He did keep them from the hour of trial... in the same way that He prayed this prayer for the disciples and all those who would believe the gospel after them.
John 17:15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.
He doesn't keep them from evil by rapturing them. Just the opposite. And the bible tells us to use scripture to interpret scripture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Good for you, then why'd you ask if I read any commentaries?

If you don't believe he traveled in the Spirit, then don't believe it. I do. He was always physically on the Isle of Patmos as I've said ad nauseum.

.Here's my first post about it which is what you're saying now.

• Post #710
• Jan 13, 2025

.."His angel"(Perhaps Michael who would stand up in great tribulation Dan 12:1). How could he be anyone less than the chief of angels(the archangel) who delegates authority over other angels. Here are some verses that show other angels "show and tell". Revelation 14: 6Then I saw another...


Yes, it would occur in the future of the church in Philadelphia(any correct understanding of grammar tells us that), and He did keep them from the hour of trial... in the same way that He prayed this prayer for the disciples and all those who would believe the gospel after them.
John 17:15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.
He doesn't keep them from evil by rapturing them. Just the opposite. And the bible tells us to use scripture to interpret scripture.

There is no proof that John "traveled in the spirit." First, you are mistaking the purpose of the vision. John had TO WRITE Rev during his vision. Therefore, he was on Patmos the whole time, writing Rev during his vision. "In the spirit" does not mean "traveling in the spirit." When John was “in the spirit," he was IMMERSED into the vision that appeared right in front of him.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Good for you, then why'd you ask if I read any commentaries?

If you don't believe he traveled in the Spirit, then don't believe it. I do. He was always physically on the Isle of Patmos as I've said ad nauseum.

.Here's my first post about it which is what you're saying now.

• Post #710
• Jan 13, 2025

.."His angel"(Perhaps Michael who would stand up in great tribulation Dan 12:1). How could he be anyone less than the chief of angels(the archangel) who delegates authority over other angels. Here are some verses that show other angels "show and tell". Revelation 14: 6Then I saw another...


Yes, it would occur in the future of the church in Philadelphia(any correct understanding of grammar tells us that), and He did keep them from the hour of trial... in the same way that He prayed this prayer for the disciples and all those who would believe the gospel after them.
John 17:15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.
He doesn't keep them from evil by rapturing them. Just the opposite. And the bible tells us to use scripture to interpret scripture

Good for you, then why'd you ask if I read any commentaries?

If you don't believe he traveled in the Spirit, then don't believe it. I do. He was always physically on the Isle of Patmos as I've said ad nauseum.

.Here's my first post about it which is what you're saying now.

• Post #710
• Jan 13, 2025

.."His angel"(Perhaps Michael who would stand up in great tribulation Dan 12:1). How could he be anyone less than the chief of angels(the archangel) who delegates authority over other angels. Here are some verses that show other angels "show and tell". Revelation 14: 6Then I saw another...


Yes, it would occur in the future of the church in Philadelphia(any correct understanding of grammar tells us that), and He did keep them from the hour of trial... in the same way that He prayed this prayer for the disciples and all those who would believe the gospel after them.
John 17:15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.
He doesn't keep them from evil by rapturing them. Just the opposite. And the bible tells us to use scripture to interpret scripture.

In Rev 1:9, John was on the island of Patmos. In verses 10-11, he hears a voice behind him (confirming his vision also had audio).

Rev 1:12-15 ESV): 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.

John instantly saw inside Heaven in great detail with full depth perception. It was as if he was in that scene. Clearly, that 3D scene was presented to John, that only he could see, while on Patmos.

The extraordinary vision presented to John manifested all scenes immediately before him, as if he was in each scene, with audio and full depth perception.

This is rock-solid proof that John never had to leave Patmos to experience any scene described in Rev.

As a corollary, Rev 4:1 was merely written about just as every other verse in Rev, solely from the extraordinary vision John experienced while on Patmos.

Rev 4:1 is therefore indisputably the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

There is no proof that John "traveled in the spirit." First, you are mistaking the purpose of the vision. John had TO WRITE Rev during his vision. Therefore, he was on Patmos the whole time, writing Rev during his vision. "In the spirit" does not mean "traveling in the spirit." When John was “in the spirit," he was IMMERSED into the vision that appeared right in front of him.

This is the purpose of the vision: Rev 1:1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.
Rev 22:6And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

Like I said before that it may be like a dream where you travel but never actually go anywhere.

• Post #710
• Jan 13, 2025

Here's what I mean by travel, nothing more and nothing less.
Rev 17:3
And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 21:10
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is the purpose of the vision: Rev 1:1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.
Rev 22:6And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

Like I said before that it may be like a dream where you travel but never actually go anywhere.

• Post #710
• Jan 13, 2025

Here's what I mean by travel, nothing more and nothing less.
Rev 17:3
And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 21:10
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

In Rev 17:1 (ESV): ... “Come, I will show you ..." Verse 3: And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw...Verse 6: I saw the woman, ... When I saw her, Verse 8: The beast that you saw ...

John was shown everything about Rev while on Patmos. That is provable by Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8. Therefore, you have to look at all those verses with the truth of those verses in mind. The different scenes in Rev come to John, in the vision. They are are right there in front of him, as he writes. The carrying away in verse 3 is the scene changing to make it appear that John was being carried away. It was the scene that moved a bunch, not John. Yet, to John, in the spirit, it would appear that he moved a bunch. The scene moved a bunch, not John.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

It was the scene that moved a bunch, not John. Yet, to John, in the spirit, it would appear that he moved a bunch. The scene moved a bunch, not John.

That is purely your own interpretation, which apparently your whole doctrine of a pre-trib rapture hinges.
So, how do you know what Paul didn't know but God knows? Paul is assuming that either one of the following is a possibility but you exclude the possibility.
2 Corinthians 12: 1I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

Here's a case where the spirit left a girl and returned.
Luke 52And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, “Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.” 53And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54But taking her by the hand he called, saying, “Child, arise.” 55And her spirit returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat.

Dreams and visions were miraculous events of the last days when God poured out His Spirit on all flesh. I think it an error to minimize what God can do and says and replace His words with your thoughts.
When God said they were in "the tribulation", I believe it, and you don't and so you have to find a way to make it meaningless. Why would God make a meaningless point?
Proverbs 30:
5Every word of God proves true;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That is purely your own interpretation, which apparently your whole doctrine of a pre-trib rapture hinges.
So, how do you know what Paul didn't know but God knows? Paul is assuming that either one of the following is a possibility but you exclude the possibility.
2 Corinthians 12: 1I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

Here's a case where the spirit left a girl and returned.
Luke 52And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, “Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.” 53And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54But taking her by the hand he called, saying, “Child, arise.” 55And her spirit returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat.

Dreams and visions were miraculous events of the last days when God poured out His Spirit on all flesh. I think it an error to minimize what God can do and says and replace His words with your thoughts.
When God said they were in "the tribulation", I believe it, and you don't and so you have to find a way to make it meaningless. Why would God make a meaningless point?
Proverbs 30:
5Every word of God proves true;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

In Rev 1:9, John was on Patmos.

In Rev 1:10, John heard a loud voice behind him.

Rev 1:12 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,

John was seeing a richly detailed scene from inside of Heaven. He also saw in verse 13: “… one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. In verse 14: The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, Verse 15: his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. Verse 16: In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

John was seeing fine details of a scene from inside of Heaven. A real scene of Heaven was put in John’s vision, while he was on Patmos. It was so detailed, it was as if John was in Heaven. But, from verse 9, we know he was on Patmos.

The scenes John wrote about in Rev, were made to appear before him in exceptionally fine detail.

I’m not making up anything or adding to Scripture.

True or false? John was able to see richly detailed scenes in Heaven, that were put where he could see them on Patmos.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

True or false? John was able to see richly detailed scenes in Heaven, that were put where he could see them on Patmos.

He was told to "come up here" and then in the Spirit he saw richly detailed scenes in Heaven. That is all I know about it. So, whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, I didn't have the vision and Paul had his vision and didn't know even then. And besides, what difference does it make? John is the one who saw and heard everything. He heard the voice that told him to "come up here" and then he's up there in heaven seeing the vision from heaven.
I can see how you might see it. That the vision is of the whole world, from the wilderness to Jerusalem and to Rome and up to heaven and that John, being in the vision. can travel from one place to another in the vision. So when he is told to come up here, he, in his vision goes up to heaven. And in his vision is carried away in the Spirit to the wilderness or Jerusalem. It's like when you travel in a dream, except it's a vision. You don't go any place physically, but, like I've done in a dream, fly around the world.