Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[keras]

Prove me wrong, Keras. Let’s hear your refutation of Jesus’ words in Rev 3:10. Let’s hear your proof that we are not snatched away from Earth in 1 Th 1:10, when the use of “delivers us” aligns with God’s practice to save His children when in the midst of danger. Prove Rev 4:1 is not the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

The fact is that none of the verses you cite, have any mention of a rapture to heaven of the Church.
That idea is a false teaching and will never happen.

The faithful Christian peoples will be protected during the forthcoming Sixth Seal and for the Great Tribulation.
As 2 Peter 2:9 and 1 Corinthians 19:13 make quite clear.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The fact is that none of the verses you cite, have any mention of a rapture to heaven of the Church.
That idea is a false teaching and will never happen.

The faithful Christian peoples will be protected during the forthcoming Sixth Seal and for the Great Tribulation.
As 2 Peter 2:9 and 1 Corinthians 19:13 make quite clear.

Rev 6:15-17 prove NO BELIEVERS enter the Trib.

The same is true of Rev 9:4.

The same is therefore true of Rev 6:4.

Give it up, Keras. I have Jesus' words to prove my assertions are true: "I will keep you from the hour of trial." (Rev 3:10).

Your words, "The faithful Christian peoples will be protected during the forthcoming Sixth Seal ..."

So, you're right and Jesus is wrong. Is that what you're saying?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The fact is that none of the verses you cite, have any mention of a rapture to heaven of the Church.
That idea is a false teaching and will never happen.

The faithful Christian peoples will be protected during the forthcoming Sixth Seal and for the Great Tribulation.
As 2 Peter 2:9 and 1 Corinthians 19:13 make quite clear.

You are a false teacher about the seal judgements. Seals 1-5 have not been opened.

 

[Zceptre]

The Church is not mentioned anywhere in chapters 4-19.

Except as lamps and not on Earth but at the Throne.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The fact is that none of the verses you cite, have any mention of a rapture to heaven of the Church.
That idea is a false teaching and will never happen.

The faithful Christian peoples will be protected during the forthcoming Sixth Seal and for the Great Tribulation.
As 2 Peter 2:9 and 1 Corinthians 19:13 make quite clear.

Keras, what do “Church” and “rapture” mean?

One way to identify verses about the Church is in verses with “you” meaning “believers.”

For example, “you” in Rev 3:10 is citing the believers to whom Jesus was speaking, as the Church.

His reference included, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” That literally means we, the Church, will not be on Earth during the Trib (the hour of trial).

Let’s cross reference with 1 Th 1:10. Jesus “delivers us from the wrath to come.” In the Trib, God’s wrath begins in the 2nd seal (wars). To be delivered from the wrath to come, we are snatched away from Earth.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, directly to Heaven. It is triggered to occur before the Trib, when Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come in the 2nd seal. We are snatched away from Earth directly to Heaven.

 

[keras]

FALSE PROPHETS
Extracts from 'The Prophetic Call' by Art Katz:
In Jeremiah 23:1-32, God gives us a powerful statement about true and false prophets. Talk about an indictment! It is one thing to have Judgment against nations, but when you begin to indict the prophets of God, when the loftiest and the noblest thing has become the most profane, then that is a profound statement of the low condition of a nation prior to its judgment.

The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule on their own authority; and My people love it that way! Jeremiah 5:31a
It is remarkable how self-serving this reciprocal thing is between heads of movements or fellowships and the false teachers, and how comfortable they are with one another and how they affirm one another. The people are in an unspoken agreement with their pastors: "You present a biblical message. We will pay the bill and have a Sunday service that will leave our lives free from any kind of demand that would really affect our true vested interest and lifestyles. We don't want a message that is going to challenge where our heart really is. We want to be able to say, 'Amen' and 'We've been to church'"-and that kind of thing. As the priest, so also the people. As the pastor/preacher, so also the congregation. It is into that situation we have now come to: 2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past there were false prophets, now there are false teachers among you. They will gain many adherents to their destructive theories, bringing the Way of truth into disrepute. In their greed for money and adulation, they will trade on peoples credulity with complete fabrications.

Therefore their way will be like slippery paths to them, they will
be driven away into the gloom and fall in it; for I shall bring calamity
upon them, the year of their punishment, declares the LORD. Jeremiah 23:12

This confirms that there is not an immediate judgment, but that there is an appointed time in which God judges those that profane His house; those who may have originally had authentic and holy callings. That may well be why the Lord is allowing to continue that which is now being called prophetic and is so popular, but for them, as with the priests and prophets of old, there will be a year of visitation or a time when God will bring them all to judgement.
There is a consequence for false prophecy. For the preacher of it; James 3:1, and for the believer of it, for being taken in by the ‘nice’ outcomes, that are taught, when what the Bible prophets actually wrote, is quite different.
Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you...' Jeremiah 23:15-16a
Jesus said: Do not be deceived…Matthew 24:4

Notice that God still calls them prophets. It may be because the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable. They still retain their official title, but what they are performing under that title is in God's sight an abomination. There is nothing more profane than when the sacred is no longer authentically sacred. We are making the sacred profane and if we are not as a godly people setting forth the distinction between the profane and the sacred, how different are we to the rest of the world? The ramifications of what we are talking about are beyond any full understanding at present.
Jeremiah 23:16b-17They keep saying to those who don’t bother to read the Word for themselves: 'The Lord has said: You will have peace' and as for everyone who follow their stubborn hearts, they say: 'Calamity will not come upon you.'
This must be the very quintessence of what a false prophet is, namely, the giving of a false comfort and a false assurance of peace that does not regard the truth of the difficulties that need to be faced. It is an unwillingness to bring a hard word. The things that are preached are normally flattering and encouraging to the flesh, rather than challenging or threatening. False prophets prophesy peace when the world is in turmoil! 'Calamity will not come upon you' and ‘God will rapture you to heaven’, is sadly the kind of statement that is coming from today’s pulpits, especially among Christians of the Western world. They are giving false security to their flock.

But who has stood in the council of the LORD...? Jeremiah 23:18
God requires still that His prophetic people be in His presence. I do not see many in the earth today who are in this place. What then shall we say for all the so called; prophets that have arisen in recent years for there are many who profess to be prophets, but are they really hearing the council of God? Not likely, as evidenced by how they all have a different interpretation of the Prophetic Word. God's judgment is severe on those who say: this is God’s word, but it is of their own volition.
We can know when the Word is from the council of God because it has a beneficial effect. It will affect the nation or fellowship in turning it toward God, rather than away from Him and from their wrongful ways and practices.
Watchmen; Jeremiah 31:6, are called to come into that whole scenario and bring the Sword of the Lord, and the fear of the Lord, and the truth of Scripture to people who have been long spoiled by pastors and writers of things like Prosperity theology and the rapture to heaven doctrine, that every one of us has been exposed to by preaching, books and the media, often ignoring scriptural truths. This is why we have so much controversy over what God actually does intend for His people and why God will soon take action to change everything.

THEN My people will see and hear clearly….they will finally understand and know the truth. Isaiah 32:3-4 & 35:5 Jeremiah 23:20

There are false teachers. We are told there would be: 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The false teacher speaks words of comfort when God would not have His people to be comforted, but to be stirred up. True prophets and watchmen who promote the Prophetic Word have to bear the reprisal, the rejection and the mortification of that word coming back into their own teeth. Prophetic anguish is to present the word of God and then to have it refused, but other doctrines believed. It is mortifying and the opposite of the joy and the gratification that comes when the word of God flows out of you and into the people who are receiving it. That is like tonic for your soul. We have to be as willing for the one as the other, or we will not speak the Words of truth, but we must warn people, whether they accept it or not. Ezekiel 3:1-6

 

[Douggg]

FALSE PROPHETS
Extracts from 'The Prophetic Call' by Art Katz:
In Jeremiah 23:1-32, God gives us a powerful statement about true and false prophets. Talk about an indictment! It is one thing to have Judgment against nations, but when you begin to indict the prophets of God, when the loftiest and the noblest thing has become the most profane, then that is a profound statement of the low condition of a nation prior to its judgment.

The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule on their own authority; and My people love it that way! Jeremiah 5:31a
It is remarkable how self-serving this reciprocal thing is between heads of movements or fellowships and the false teachers, and how comfortable they are with one another and how they affirm one another. The people are in an unspoken agreement with their pastors: "You present a biblical message. We will pay the bill and have a Sunday service that will leave our lives free from any kind of demand that would really affect our true vested interest and lifestyles. We don't want a message that is going to challenge where our heart really is. We want to be able to say, 'Amen' and 'We've been to church'"-and that kind of thing. As the priest, so also the people. As the pastor/preacher, so also the congregation. It is into that situation we have now come to: 2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past there were false prophets, now there are false teachers among you. They will gain many adherents to their destructive theories, bringing the Way of truth into disrepute. In their greed for money and adulation, they will trade on peoples credulity with complete fabrications.

Therefore their way will be like slippery paths to them, they will
be driven away into the gloom and fall in it; for I shall bring calamity
upon them, the year of their punishment, declares the LORD. Jeremiah 23:12

This confirms that there is not an immediate judgment, but that there is an appointed time in which God judges those that profane His house; those who may have originally had authentic and holy callings. That may well be why the Lord is allowing to continue that which is now being called prophetic and is so popular, but for them, as with the priests and prophets of old, there will be a year of visitation or a time when God will bring them all to judgement.
There is a consequence for false prophecy. For the preacher of it; James 3:1, and for the believer of it, for being taken in by the ‘nice’ outcomes, that are taught, when what the Bible prophets actually wrote, is quite different.
Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you...' Jeremiah 23:15-16a
Jesus said: Do not be deceived…Matthew 24:4

Notice that God still calls them prophets. It may be because the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable. They still retain their official title, but what they are performing under that title is in God's sight an abomination. There is nothing more profane than when the sacred is no longer authentically sacred. We are making the sacred profane and if we are not as a godly people setting forth the distinction between the profane and the sacred, how different are we to the rest of the world? The ramifications of what we are talking about are beyond any full understanding at present.
Jeremiah 23:16b-17They keep saying to those who don’t bother to read the Word for themselves: 'The Lord has said: You will have peace' and as for everyone who follow their stubborn hearts, they say: 'Calamity will not come upon you.'
This must be the very quintessence of what a false prophet is, namely, the giving of a false comfort and a false assurance of peace that does not regard the truth of the difficulties that need to be faced. It is an unwillingness to bring a hard word. The things that are preached are normally flattering and encouraging to the flesh, rather than challenging or threatening. False prophets prophesy peace when the world is in turmoil! 'Calamity will not come upon you' and ‘God will rapture you to heaven’, is sadly the kind of statement that is coming from today’s pulpits, especially among Christians of the Western world. They are giving false security to their flock.

But who has stood in the council of the LORD...? Jeremiah 23:18
God requires still that His prophetic people be in His presence. I do not see many in the earth today who are in this place. What then shall we say for all the so called; prophets that have arisen in recent years for there are many who profess to be prophets, but are they really hearing the council of God? Not likely, as evidenced by how they all have a different interpretation of the Prophetic Word. God's judgment is severe on those who say: this is God’s word, but it is of their own volition.
We can know when the Word is from the council of God because it has a beneficial effect. It will affect the nation or fellowship in turning it toward God, rather than away from Him and from their wrongful ways and practices.
Watchmen; Jeremiah 31:6, are called to come into that whole scenario and bring the Sword of the Lord, and the fear of the Lord, and the truth of Scripture to people who have been long spoiled by pastors and writers of things like Prosperity theology and the rapture to heaven doctrine, that every one of us has been exposed to by preaching, books and the media, often ignoring scriptural truths. This is why we have so much controversy over what God actually does intend for His people and why God will soon take action to change everything.

THEN My people will see and hear clearly….they will finally understand and know the truth. Isaiah 32:3-4 & 35:5 Jeremiah 23:20

There are false teachers. We are told there would be: 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The false teacher speaks words of comfort when God would not have His people to be comforted, but to be stirred up. True prophets and watchmen who promote the Prophetic Word have to bear the reprisal, the rejection and the mortification of that word coming back into their own teeth. Prophetic anguish is to present the word of God and then to have it refused, but other doctrines believed. It is mortifying and the opposite of the joy and the gratification that comes when the word of God flows out of you and into the people who are receiving it. That is like tonic for your soul. We have to be as willing for the one as the other, or we will not speak the Words of truth, but we must warn people, whether they accept it or not. Ezekiel 3:1-6

Keras, why are you posting something from Art Katz ? His writing style is very very hard to read and not understandable. He passed away in 2007, so no-one here can ask him what he meant.

I don't see what Art Katz wrote has anything to do with rapture/resurrection to heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

FALSE PROPHETS
Extracts from 'The Prophetic Call' by Art Katz:
In Jeremiah 23:1-32, God gives us a powerful statement about true and false prophets. Talk about an indictment! It is one thing to have Judgment against nations, but when you begin to indict the prophets of God, when the loftiest and the noblest thing has become the most profane, then that is a profound statement of the low condition of a nation prior to its judgment.

The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule on their own authority; and My people love it that way! Jeremiah 5:31a
It is remarkable how self-serving this reciprocal thing is between heads of movements or fellowships and the false teachers, and how comfortable they are with one another and how they affirm one another. The people are in an unspoken agreement with their pastors: "You present a biblical message. We will pay the bill and have a Sunday service that will leave our lives free from any kind of demand that would really affect our true vested interest and lifestyles. We don't want a message that is going to challenge where our heart really is. We want to be able to say, 'Amen' and 'We've been to church'"-and that kind of thing. As the priest, so also the people. As the pastor/preacher, so also the congregation. It is into that situation we have now come to: 2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past there were false prophets, now there are false teachers among you. They will gain many adherents to their destructive theories, bringing the Way of truth into disrepute. In their greed for money and adulation, they will trade on peoples credulity with complete fabrications.

Therefore their way will be like slippery paths to them, they will
be driven away into the gloom and fall in it; for I shall bring calamity
upon them, the year of their punishment, declares the LORD. Jeremiah 23:12

This confirms that there is not an immediate judgment, but that there is an appointed time in which God judges those that profane His house; those who may have originally had authentic and holy callings. That may well be why the Lord is allowing to continue that which is now being called prophetic and is so popular, but for them, as with the priests and prophets of old, there will be a year of visitation or a time when God will bring them all to judgement.
There is a consequence for false prophecy. For the preacher of it; James 3:1, and for the believer of it, for being taken in by the ‘nice’ outcomes, that are taught, when what the Bible prophets actually wrote, is quite different.
Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you...' Jeremiah 23:15-16a
Jesus said: Do not be deceived…Matthew 24:4

Notice that God still calls them prophets. It may be because the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable. They still retain their official title, but what they are performing under that title is in God's sight an abomination. There is nothing more profane than when the sacred is no longer authentically sacred. We are making the sacred profane and if we are not as a godly people setting forth the distinction between the profane and the sacred, how different are we to the rest of the world? The ramifications of what we are talking about are beyond any full understanding at present.
Jeremiah 23:16b-17They keep saying to those who don’t bother to read the Word for themselves: 'The Lord has said: You will have peace' and as for everyone who follow their stubborn hearts, they say: 'Calamity will not come upon you.'
This must be the very quintessence of what a false prophet is, namely, the giving of a false comfort and a false assurance of peace that does not regard the truth of the difficulties that need to be faced. It is an unwillingness to bring a hard word. The things that are preached are normally flattering and encouraging to the flesh, rather than challenging or threatening. False prophets prophesy peace when the world is in turmoil! 'Calamity will not come upon you' and ‘God will rapture you to heaven’, is sadly the kind of statement that is coming from today’s pulpits, especially among Christians of the Western world. They are giving false security to their flock.

But who has stood in the council of the LORD...? Jeremiah 23:18
God requires still that His prophetic people be in His presence. I do not see many in the earth today who are in this place. What then shall we say for all the so called; prophets that have arisen in recent years for there are many who profess to be prophets, but are they really hearing the council of God? Not likely, as evidenced by how they all have a different interpretation of the Prophetic Word. God's judgment is severe on those who say: this is God’s word, but it is of their own volition.
We can know when the Word is from the council of God because it has a beneficial effect. It will affect the nation or fellowship in turning it toward God, rather than away from Him and from their wrongful ways and practices.
Watchmen; Jeremiah 31:6, are called to come into that whole scenario and bring the Sword of the Lord, and the fear of the Lord, and the truth of Scripture to people who have been long spoiled by pastors and writers of things like Prosperity theology and the rapture to heaven doctrine, that every one of us has been exposed to by preaching, books and the media, often ignoring scriptural truths. This is why we have so much controversy over what God actually does intend for His people and why God will soon take action to change everything.

THEN My people will see and hear clearly….they will finally understand and know the truth. Isaiah 32:3-4 & 35:5 Jeremiah 23:20

There are false teachers. We are told there would be: 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The false teacher speaks words of comfort when God would not have His people to be comforted, but to be stirred up. True prophets and watchmen who promote the Prophetic Word have to bear the reprisal, the rejection and the mortification of that word coming back into their own teeth. Prophetic anguish is to present the word of God and then to have it refused, but other doctrines believed. It is mortifying and the opposite of the joy and the gratification that comes when the word of God flows out of you and into the people who are receiving it. That is like tonic for your soul. We have to be as willing for the one as the other, or we will not speak the Words of truth, but we must warn people, whether they accept it or not. Ezekiel 3:1-6

Keras, you keep dodging my questions, and the TRUTH I present.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep YOU from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try THOSE who dwell on the earth.

Jesus said that we believers will be kept from the Trib, meaning we will not enter the Trib. He further made it crystal clear that only unbelievers (THOSE who dwell on the earth) will enter the Trib and be tried by God's 21 judgments of wrath.

When will you accept what Jesus said in Rev 3:10?

 

[keras]

Keras, why are you posting something from Art Katz ? His writing style is very very hard to read and not understandable. He passed away in 2007, so no-one here can ask him what he meant.

I don't see what Art Katz wrote has anything to do with rapture/resurrection to heaven.

It is patently obvious what Art meant.
He promotes Jeremiah 23, by which; God informs us how He will Judge and punish those who preach and promote false theories and wrong doctrines.
I view Art's writings, as above; as perfectly readable. it is only people whose beliefs are challenged, who fail to comprehend his message.

 

[keras]

When will you accept what Jesus said in Rev 3:10?

What Jesus said is fine and is the truth of how He will protect His own..
It is what you add to Rev 3:10, - a rapture. removal from the earth, that I reject and refute.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What Jesus said is fine and is the truth of how He will protect His own..
It is what you add to Rev 3:10, - a rapture. removal from the earth, that I reject and refute.

Keras, to be "kept from" the Trib, means we don't enter it. The phrase "kept from" does not mean "keep safe" and still be on Earth. You can't prove any protection related to being in the Trib from Rev 3:10. Only "those who dwell on the earth" will be tried in the Trib, just as Jesus said in Rev 3:10. Those who dwell on the earth, in the context of the Trib, are 100% unbelievers 100% of the time, just as is proven in Rev 6:15-17.

You are still ignoring the meaning of 1 Th 1:10. We will be snatched away from Earth just prior to the Trib, given that God's wrath starts in the 2nd seal. That is "the wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. You cannot disprove this. "Delivers us" in 1 Th 1:10 means we are snatched away from Earth. Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, and you can't prove it isn't.

 

[Zceptre]

The Rapture will precede the great Tribulation AKA Time of Jacob's Trouble.

7 Points:

(1) Tribulation's purpose concerns Israel (Jeremiah 30:7) (Daniel 9:24)
(2) No Biblical reference to the Church on Earth during the Tribulation (Revelation 4-22)
(3) Church is promised an exemption from divine wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) (1 Thessalonians 5:9) (Romans 5:9) (Revelation 3:10) (Revelation 6:17)
(4) Rapture is imminent (1 Corinthians 15:51) (1 Thessalonians 4:15)
(5) Rapture is a comfort (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
(6) Antichrist cannot come to power until the restrainer is removed (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7)
(7) Symbolic parallels (2 Peter 2:5-9)

 

[keras]

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, and you can't prove it isn't.

You are divorced from reality.
A simple reading of Revelation 4:1 After this, I had a vision - a door stood open in heaven and the Voice that I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: Come up here and I will show you what must take place hereafter.

There is no mention of the Church or of John or anyone; going to live in heaven. You are guilty of adding to Revelation. Bad you.

 

[keras]

The Rapture will precede the great Tribulation AKA Time of Jacob's Trouble.

7 Points:

(1) Tribulation's purpose concerns Israel (Jeremiah 30:7) (Daniel 9:24)
(2) No Biblical reference to the Church on Earth during the Tribulation (Revelation 4-22)
(3) Church is promised an exemption from divine wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) (1 Thessalonians 5:9) (Romans 5:9) (Revelation 3:10) (Revelation 6:17)
(4) Rapture is imminent (1 Corinthians 15:51) (1 Thessalonians 4:15)
(5) Rapture is a comfort (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
(6) Antichrist cannot come to power until the restrainer is removed (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7)
(7) Symbolic parallels (2 Peter 2:5-9)

You are a typical example of the general confusion and deceptions in the Church today.

NONE of your scriptural proofs say what they you like to think they do. For example:
2 Peter 2:5-9 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those …
Noah and the other 7 people, did not go to heaven.
Lot and his daughters did not go to heaven.
In fact; that scripture DISPROVES a future rapture to heaven. It proves that the Lord will protect His people on earth.

Also, if you think the Jewish State of Israel is still the Chosen peoples, you are sadly mistaken and fail New Testament understanding of who the Elect are.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are divorced from reality.
A simple reading of Revelation 4:1 After this, I had a vision - a door stood open in heaven and the Voice that I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: Come up here and I will show you what must take place hereafter.

There is no mention of the Church or of John or anyone; going to live in heaven. You are guilty of adding to Revelation. Bad you.

Keras, all of these verses (1 Th 1:10; 1 Th 4:16–17; John 14:3; and Rev 3:10) are about the same pre-Trib rapture. Combined, they cover all important details.

For example: John 14:3 is about rapturing us to Heaven, to live in our mansions. Rev 3:10 proves we will not enter the Trib, and that only unbelievers (those who dwell on the earth) will be tried against God’s 21 judgments of wrath.

All those verses cover the same pre-Trib rapture. So, it is proven we will be raptured to Heaven to live there (John 14:3).

Keras, John 14:3 is not about the NHNE. The NHNE is brought down to us (Rev 21:2). We are raptured to the existing Heaven (John 14:3).

 

[keras]

. So, it is proven we will be raptured to Heaven to live there (John 14:3).

John 14 does not mention 'rapture to heaven', either.
You pile up a heap of false statements and make scripture mean what it doesn't. There will be a Judgment for such crimes.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

John 14 does not mention 'rapture to heaven', either.
You pile up a heap of false statements and make scripture mean what it doesn't. There will be a Judgment for such crimes.

John 14:3 (ESV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Our mansions are in Heaven. He comes for us in 1 Th 4:16-17. Rev 4:1 is about us being taken straight to Heaven.

All of the rapture verses have different details about the same pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Zceptre]

You are a typical example of the general confusion and deceptions in the Church today.

Also, if you think the Jewish State of Israel is still the Chosen peoples, you are sadly mistaken and fail New Testament understanding of who the Elect are.

lol

Put your fangs up buddy.

I didn't address you personally in my post.

Making baseless statements and attacking me won't validate anything.

People can read those passages themselves.

I put it there for all the people to read.

They don't need you holding their hand.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are divorced from reality.
A simple reading of Revelation 4:1 After this, I had a vision - a door stood open in heaven and the Voice that I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: Come up here and I will show you what must take place hereafter.

There is no mention of the Church or of John or anyone; going to live in heaven. You are guilty of adding to Revelation. Bad you.

Does Rev 4:1 say anything about the 2W being raptured? Oh wait! The same rapture was used to rapture the 2W straight to Heaven:

Rev 11:12 (ESV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

What will Jesus’ cry of command be in 1 Th 4:16?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

One way to identify verses about the Church is in verses with “you” meaning “believers.”

For example, “you” in Rev 3:10 is citing the believers to whom Jesus was speaking, as the Church.

His reference included, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” That literally means we, the Church, will not be on Earth during the Trib (the hour of trial).

Let’s cross reference with 1 Th 1:10. Jesus “delivers us from the wrath to come.” In the Trib, God’s wrath begins in the 2nd seal (wars). To be delivered from the wrath to come, we are snatched away from Earth.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, directly to Heaven. It is triggered to occur before the Trib, when Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come in the 2nd seal. We are snatched away from Earth directly to Heaven.

John and the seven churches were already in "THE TRIBULATION" according to the Father who sent the Son to tell them that. Revelation 1:9I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Then the church in Smyrna is directly told "to be faithful unto death" in the tribulation. So how can you say the church is not in the tribulation?
Rev 2:8“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
9“‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 3:10 is explicitly to the church at Philadelphia which no longer exists.
Rev 4:1 is followed by 4:2 telling us how he went up.
On top of that, you have the 'rapture" coming before the resurrection and before salvation comes. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 tells us the dead in Christ are raised first. Hebrews 9:28 tells us He will come a 2nd time to bring salvation.

Tribulation is not the same thing as the wrath of God. The wrath of God was poured out during the tribulation that God told them they were in.
Jacob and his family went through great tribulation during the famine in Egypt, but it wasn't the wrath of God, and they had a "great deliverance".
Genesis 45:7God sent me before you to preserve you as a remnant on the earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance.