Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[keras]

Rev 7 is about the greatest revival in the Trib, wherein millions of new converts (Rev 7:9) are saved. Those new converts are the GM.

This idea is simply untrue.
Nowhere does the Bible tell us there will be many converts to Christianity during the Great Tribulation. On the contrary, we are told the peoples will worship the Dragon; Satan and the beast; the Anti-Christ world leader. Revelation 13:3-4

As you say; there will be Christian martyrs, but they will come from the group referred to in Revelation 12:17

It is the job of the 144k (Rev 7:1-8) to facilitate the greatest revival in the Trib.

We are not told the 144k will convert anyone. From Isaiah 66:19, we are told they will proclaim Gods glory to the nations and the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This idea is simply untrue.
Nowhere does the Bible tell us there will be many converts to Christianity during the Great Tribulation. On the contrary, we are told the peoples will worship the Dragon; Satan and the beast; the Anti-Christ world leader. Revelation 13:3-4

As you say; there will be Christian martyrs, but they will come from the group referred to in Revelation 12:17

We are not told the 144k will convert anyone. From Isaiah 66:19, we are told they will proclaim Gods glory to the nations and the coming Kingdom of Jesus.
You just make such wild claims in order to support the false rapture to heaven theory. Not going to happen, but those who did prove their faith and trust in the Lord during the terrible Sixth Seal event, will receive white robes and will be kept safe during the Tribulation. Rev 12:14

First, Isaiah 66:19 has nothing to do with the Trib. It's entirely an OT matter.

Rev 13:3-4 are about the fake resurrection by the AC, and that unbelievers that will worship the dragon and the AC.

The believers cited in Rev 13:7 are new converts. We know they are new converts because no believers enter the Trib. This is proven in a number of verses. Let's look at two examples: Rev 6:4 and Rev 6:15-17.

In Rev 6:4, no believers would be subjected to indiscriminate murdering. Yet, that's the prevailing environment of kill or be killed.

In Rev 6:15-17, we first see that "everyone" in the world is cited in verse 15. Also in verse 15, clearly in complete terror, everyone hid in caves and among the rocks. Verses 16-17 (NIV): They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

In Rev 6:15-17, everyone in the world behaves only as unbelievers would behave. There's an alleged sighting of Jesus in verse 16. Everyone reacts in complete terror and runs away to hide in caves and among the rocks. Everyone in the world is involved, per verse 15. Everyone reacts only as unbelievers would react.

If Jesus were nearby us believers in that same context, we would run TO Him in COMPLETE JOY! We would race to Jesus to THANK AND PRAISE our Lord Jesus Christ!

None of that is seen in Rev 6:15-17 because "everyone" represents the population as 100% unbelievers. There isn't one believer on Earth at the time of Rev 6:15-17.

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

There you have new converts who became martyrs from the 2nd and 4th seals describing who killed them as "those who dwell on the earth." That phrase, in the context of the Trib, always means "unbelievers who inhabit the earth." This is proven in every use of that phrase in the context of the Trib. Let's look at another example: Rev 11:13 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

There you have two examples of "those who dwell on the earth" as unbelievers.

Keras, you can't prove one believer enters the Trib. All the GM are provably former unbelievers per Rev 7:16 (ESV):
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

That was the former existence of all of the GM before they were graciously saved by God Almighty. The wording of Rev 7:16 also spans from the early Trib to deeply into the 2nd half. This is proven true of the early Trib by the words "shall hunger no more." Those specific words relate to "famine" found in the 4th seal (Rev 6:8). The words "scorching heat" specifically relate to Rev 16:9 (ESV): They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.

Those verses span the time from which all new converts are made in the Trib. This is true because not one believer enters the Trib.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 12:17 is indisputable, the people who must endure the Great Tribulation are;....... they are those who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

keras, the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. The seed of the woman Israel are the Jews. The Jews en-masse become believers in Jesus and the gospel of salvation in Revelation 12:10 in the middle of the 7 years.

That those in Revelation 12:17 are ....... they are those who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ..... indicates that they are Jews who emphasize obeying the commandments of God, who have become Christians - followers of Christ.

 

[keras]

the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

In Revelation 12:1-5, the 'woman' represents Jewish Israel, specifically; Mary the mother of Jesus.

The seed of the woman Israel are the Jews

Her seed is Jesus.
From that time on, the Jewish people have no further role to play in Gods Plans. They killed Jesus and have continued in their rejection of Him for 2000 years. They face punishment and only a remnant will survive.

The Jews en-masse become believers in Jesus and the gospel of salvation in Revelation 12:10 in the middle of the 7 years.

Pretentious and unscriptural nonsense. Rev 12:10 says nothing of the sort.

That those in Revelation 12:17 are ....... they are those who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.....

Obviously they are Christians now. Or have become Christian before that time.

NO scripture says there will be a general redemption of the Jews. You have made that up, to support the false rapture theory. A serious wrong teaching that will result in a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This idea is simply untrue.
Nowhere does the Bible tell us there will be many converts to Christianity during the Great Tribulation. On the contrary, we are told the peoples will worship the Dragon; Satan and the beast; the Anti-Christ world leader. Revelation 13:3-4

As you say; there will be Christian martyrs, but they will come from the group referred to in Revelation 12:17

We are not told the 144k will convert anyone. From Isaiah 66:19, we are told they will proclaim Gods glory to the nations and the coming Kingdom of Jesus.
You just make such wild claims in order to support the false rapture to heaven theory. Not going to happen, but those who did prove their faith and trust in the Lord during the terrible Sixth Seal event, will receive white robes and will be kept safe during the Tribulation. Rev 12:14

Rev 7:16 (ESV):
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

"They" are those in Rev 7:10 (ESV) thanking God for their salvation. "They" are former unbelievers, per being subjected to God's wrath in the Trib (Rev 7:16). "They" are millions of new converts from the Trib.

 

[Douggg]

The great multitude is in heaven, praising God.

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:




6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

[keras]

Rev 7:16 (ESV):
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

"They" are those in Rev 7:10 (ESV) thanking God for their salvation. "They" are former unbelievers, per being subjected to God's wrath in the Trib (Rev 7:16). "They" are millions of new converts from the Trib.

I proved that Rev 7:15-17 is to do with Eternity. You avoid the truth of how it will be after the Millennium, when God will wipe away every tear.
The people referred to in Rev 7:10, are living people who called upon the Name of the Lord during the Lords Day of wrath.

The great multitude is in heaven, praising God.

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

There are two great multitudes.
The GM in Rev 7:9 are living people on earth. To think they are in heaven, is to add to Revelation.
The GM in Rev 19:1, are the martyrs, the millions of Christians murdered for their faith. As described in Rev 6:9-11

Thinking they are the same, is confusion and error.
But, of course; those with false beliefs, must mis-apply and add to scripture to make their weird and impossible theories work. Such actions can have eternal consequences.

 

[Douggg]

Thinking they are the same, is confusion and error.
But, of course; those with false beliefs, must mis-apply and add to scripture to make their weird and impossible theories work. Such actions can have eternal consequences.

keras, you did not notice the verses says "in heaven" ? You say humans never go to heaven.

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I proved that Rev 7:15-17 is to do with Eternity. You avoid the truth of how it will be after the Millennium, when God will wipe away every tear.
The people referred to in Rev 7:10, are living people who called upon the Name of the Lord during the Lords Day of wrath.

There are two great multitudes.
The GM in Rev 7:9 are living people on earth. To think they are in heaven, is to add to Revelation.
The GM in Rev 19:1, are the martyrs, the millions of Christians murdered for their faith. As described in Rev 6:9-11

Thinking they are the same, is confusion and error.
But, of course; those with false beliefs, must mis-apply and add to scripture to make their weird and impossible theories work. Such actions can have eternal consequences.

Your failure to address my rebuttals of your wrong assertions, such as; saying Rev 12:10 is a Jewish Redemption, the idea of the 'seed' of the woman being the Jews, and the people in Rev 12:17 being new converts. shows your intransigence and inability to understand the truths of Bible Prophecy.

Keras, you have NOT proven that Rev 7:15-17 have to do with eternity. Your "prophecy" escape hatch will not work. Rev 7:9-17 are about the GM entering Heaven during the GT as former unbelievers who came to Christ in the Trib. It was by years of very hard work by the 144k that this salvation of a great multitude was made possible, through the grace of God Almighty.

Here's the proof:

Rev 7:9 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Rev 7:15-16 (ESV):
15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

Verse 15 says "they are before the throne" just as they are "before the throne" in verse 9.

"They" in verse 16 therefore refers back to "they" in verse 15 which refers back to "a great multitude" in verse 9.

Rev 7 is about a great multitude of former unbelievers in the Trib that are brought to Christ. The first words out their mouths when standing before the throne of God (verse 9) is "Salvation." They first thank God for their salvation which occurred in the Trib.

You are avoiding the irrefutable truth. The GM were once 100% unbelievers having been subjected in the Trib to the wrath of God (verse 16). Through the very hard work of the 144k, that multitude came to Christ starting in the early seals all the way into the GT (verses 9, 15-16).

This idea is simply untrue.
Nowhere does the Bible tell us there will be many converts to Christianity during the Great Tribulation. On the contrary, we are told the peoples will worship the Dragon; Satan and the beast; the Anti-Christ world leader. Revelation 13:3-4

As you say; there will be Christian martyrs, but they will come from the group referred to in Revelation 12:17

We are not told the 144k will convert anyone. From Isaiah 66:19, we are told they will proclaim Gods glory to the nations and the coming Kingdom of Jesus.
You just make such wild claims in order to support the false rapture to heaven theory. Not going to happen, but those who did prove their faith and trust in the Lord during the terrible Sixth Seal event, will receive white robes and will be kept safe during the Tribulation. Rev 12:14

 

[keras]

keras, you did not notice the verses says "in heaven" ? You say humans never go to heaven.

I say and have repeated many times: That humans never go to live in heaven.

That multitude in heaven are the souls of the martyrs. Dead people.
Isn't it what a good God would do? A special placement of their souls under the Altar in heaven. God does empower then to cry out at times.

Verse 15 says "they are before the throne" just as they are "before the throne" in verse 9.

This is like 'Whack-a-Mole! You keep coming with more ideas in your fevered attempts to support a rapture and I keep refuting them. You will run out soon, but what looks bad for you, is how you fail to counter any of my refutations with anything other than your opinions.

The Throne of God is a Spiritual concept, not part of our physical dimension.
If God wills it; He, His Throne and the angels can be seen from the earth, There are two examples of this: Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56
Revelation 7:9 will be another instance of Gods Throne being seen by people on earth.

 

[Douggg]

That multitude in heaven are the souls of the martyrs. Dead people.
Isn't it what a good God would do? A special placement of their souls under the Altar in heaven. God does empower then to cry out at times.

Some are the souls of martyrs not yet received their eternal life bodies. The souls will have a ghost like appearance. dressed in white robes, Revelation 7:9.

But the great multitude in heaven includes the raptured/resurrected saints because in Revelation 19:7-8 as the bride of Christ, they are arrayed in in fine linen, clean and white, representing the righteousness of the saint.

Then in Revelation 19:14, they are the armies of heaven that follow Jesus as He returns down to earth, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And the marriage supper of the Lamb is the feast that will take place on the carnage the kings of the earth and their armies, in Revelation 19:17-18.... destroyed in Revelation 19:21.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I say and have repeated many times: That humans never go to live in heaven.

That multitude in heaven are the souls of the martyrs. Dead people.
Isn't it what a good God would do? A special placement of their souls under the Altar in heaven. God does empower then to cry out at times.

This is like 'Whack-a-Mole! You keep coming with more ideas in your fevered attempts to support a rapture and I keep refuting them. You will run out soon, but what looks bad for you, is how you fail to counter any of my refutations with anything other than your opinions.

The Throne of God is a Spiritual concept, not part of our physical dimension.
If God wills it; He, His Throne and the angels can be seen from the earth, There are two examples of this: Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56
Revelation 7:9 will be another instance of Gods Throne being seen by people on earth.

I don't expect much support in my fight against Satans lies, as the truths of the Prophetic Word are hidden from most people. Matthew 11:25
But you two don't get much help either. But by now, a lot of people will be seriously reconsidering their belief in a rapture. So; thanks for your help to enable me to present the truths of the end times.

Keras, once again, you are citing verses that don't apply to the point of discussion. Ezekiel and Stephen are the only individuals cited in those verses, where each individually experienced Heaven opening up to them. Those were isolated instances for those two folks, only.

Rev 7:9 (ESV): ... standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

In verse 9, the GM -- millions of new converts from the early seals and deeply into the GT -- are in Heaven "before the throne and before the Lamb."

I accept your verses for what they say. Can you find it within yourself to accept what Rev 7:9 says about those millions of new converts, otherwise known as the GM?

 

[keras]

Some are the souls of martyrs not yet received their eternal life bodies. The souls will have a ghost like appearance. dressed in white robes, Revelation 7:9.

But the great multitude in heaven includes the raptured/resurrected saints because in Revelation 19:7-8 as the bride of Christ, they are arrayed in in fine linen, clean and white, representing the righteousness of the saint.

Then in Revelation 19:14, they are the armies of heaven that follow Jesus as He returns down to earth, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And the marriage supper of the Lamb is the feast that will take place on the carnage the kings of the earth and their armies, in Revelation 19:17-18.... destroyed in Revelation 19:21.

Deceived dreamers fanciful notions!

I accept your verses for what they say. Can you find it within yourself to accept what Rev 7:9 says about those millions of new converts, otherwise known as the GM?

No. I cannot.
Because they are living people on earth. The citizens of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5
It is the rapture believers who have the problem with acceptance; of having no scripture that says a rapture will happen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Deceived dreamers fanciful notions!

No. I cannot.
Because they are living people on earth. The citizens of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5
It is the rapture believers who have the problem with acceptance; of having no scripture that says a rapture will happen.

This is Rev 7:9 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

That verse says the GM is "standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands."

If the GM is standing before the throne and before the Lamb, where are they?

 

[keras]

If the GM is standing before the throne and before the Lamb, where are they?

On earth.
Proved by how Gods throne can be seen by earthly people. Ezekiel 1:1. Acts 7:56

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

On earth.
Proved by how Gods throne can be seen by earthly people. Ezekiel 1:1. Acts 7:56

You are really grasping at straws now, There just simply isn't any Biblical support for the rapture. Get over it and into the Light of Bible truths.

What does "before" mean in "before the throne of God?" It clearly means a very short distance away.

Acts 7:56 (ESV): And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” ---- Was Stephen "before the throne of God?"

Ezekiel 1:1 (ESV): ... I was among the exiles by the Chebar canal, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. ---- Was Ezekiel "before the throne of God?"

Rev 7:9 (ESV): ... standing before the throne and before the Lamb, -

Rev 7:11 (ESV): And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

Rev 7:15 (ESV):
“Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

Stephen and Ezekiel were clearly on Earth seeing Heaven open.

Rev 7:9-17 are about a scene in Heaven, before the throne of God, where they serve Him day and night in His temple.

I am not grasping at straws. I am presenting the words of God. What say you now, Keras? Is Rev 7:9-17 about a scene in Heaven?

 

[keras]

What say you now, Keras? Is Rev 7:9-17 about a scene in Heaven?

Such a thing as people going to stay in heaven, is impossible. Jesus said so six times. John 3:13, +
Revelation 7:9 is an earthly scene. set by the first 3 verses of Chapter 7 and no change of location is mentioned.

Prove your rapture to heaven with Bible verses, or go away and practise faithfulness and righteousness, so whatever happens, you will be saved.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Such a thing as people going to stay in heaven, is impossible. Jesus said so six times. John 3:13, +
Revelation 7:9 is an earthly scene. set by the first 3 verses of Chapter 7 and no change of location is mentioned.

Prove your rapture to heaven with Bible verses, or go away and practise faithfulness and righteousness, so whatever happens, you will be saved.

How can Rev 7:9 be an earthly scene when it's about the GM being before the throne of God in Heaven?

How is Rev 4:1 not the rapture of the Church straight to Heaven when ALL of Rev 4 and beyond in Rev is in the future?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Such a thing as people going to stay in heaven, is impossible. Jesus said so six times. John 3:13, +
Revelation 7:9 is an earthly scene. set by the first 3 verses of Chapter 7 and no change of location is mentioned.

Prove your rapture to heaven with Bible verses, or go away and practise faithfulness and righteousness, so whatever happens, you will be saved.

John 3:13 (NIV); No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

2 Kings 2:11 (NIV): As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Keras, you are ignoring the context of John 3. Jesus was counseling Nicodemus in that he can’t get to Heaven on his own power.

Rev 7:9 is a heavenly scene because the GM (millions of new converts from the Trib) is before the throne of God.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Such a thing as people going to stay in heaven, is impossible. Jesus said so six times. John 3:13, +
Revelation 7:9 is an earthly scene. set by the first 3 verses of Chapter 7 and no change of location is mentioned.

Prove your rapture to heaven with Bible verses, or go away and practise faithfulness and righteousness, so whatever happens, you will be saved.

Rev 7:1-8 are about the 144k. Those verses occur early in the Trib because the 144k are active no later than the 4th seal (the martyrs in Rev 6:9 prove it).

Rev 7:9-17 occur during the GT (Rev 7:14 proves it). They are entirely about a scene in Heaven, about millions of new converts appearing before the throne of God.