Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Jeffrey Bowden]

John and the seven churches were already in "THE TRIBULATION" according to the Father who sent the Son to tell them that. Revelation 1:9I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Then the church in Smyrna is directly told "to be faithful unto death" in the tribulation. So how can you say the church is not in the tribulation?
Rev 2:8“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
9“‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 3:10 is explicitly to the church at Philadelphia which no longer exists.
Rev 4:1 is followed by 4:2 telling us how he went up.
On top of that, you have the 'rapture" coming before the resurrection and before salvation comes. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 tells us the dead in Christ are raised first. Hebrews 9:28 tells us He will come a 2nd time to bring salvation.

Tribulation is not the same thing as the wrath of God. The wrath of God was poured out during the tribulation that God told them they were in.
Jacob and his family went through great tribulation during the famine in Egypt, but it wasn't the wrath of God, and they had a "great deliverance".
Genesis 45:7God sent me before you to preserve you as a remnant on the earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

Rev 2:9 is your own example that describes tribulation (as one of its definitions) as the trials and travails of life as a Christian.

John and the seven churches were already in "THE TRIBULATION" according to the Father who sent the Son to tell them that. Revelation 1:9I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Then the church in Smyrna is directly told "to be faithful unto death" in the tribulation. So how can you say the church is not in the tribulation?
Rev 2:8“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
9“‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 3:10 is explicitly to the church at Philadelphia which no longer exists.
Rev 4:1 is followed by 4:2 telling us how he went up.
On top of that, you have the 'rapture" coming before the resurrection and before salvation comes. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 tells us the dead in Christ are raised first. Hebrews 9:28 tells us He will come a 2nd time to bring salvation.

Tribulation is not the same thing as the wrath of God. The wrath of God was poured out during the tribulation that God told them they were in.
Jacob and his family went through great tribulation during the famine in Egypt, but it wasn't the wrath of God, and they had a "great deliverance".
Genesis 45:7God sent me before you to preserve you as a remnant on the earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

There are many verses with the word “tribulation.” They refer to the trials and travails of everyday life, most particularly involving persecution as the result of witnessing.

The book of Revelation is based on Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

One “week” in the above verse is seven years. Those seven years are about God’s wrath poured out on an unbelieving world, in the form of 21 judgments: seven seals (Rev 6 and Rev 8:1-5), seven trumpets (Rev 8:6-13; Rev 9 and Rev 11:15-19), and seven bowls (Rev 16).

Jesus referred to the Trib as “the hour of trial” in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib. Jesus said “I will keep YOU from the hour of trial.” We believers will not enter the Trib.

Jesus distinguished a second group in Rev 3:10 as “those who dwell on the earth.” That is a demeaning phrase that always refers to unbelievers, in the context of the Trib. Jesus said in Rev 3:10 that, “the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” Only unbelievers will be subjected to the 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

John 14 does not mention 'rapture to heaven', either.
You pile up a heap of false statements and make scripture mean what it doesn't. There will be a Judgment for such crimes.

1 John 3:2 (ESV): Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

Keras, we will be like Him when he appears. This can only occur in the pre-Trib rapture, as we will be in our eternal bodies when He appears when we meet Him in the air (1 Th 4:17). This is from 1 Cor 15:52 that solely applies to 1 Th 4:16-17. These are more details of the pre-Trib rapture that beautifully complement Rev 4:1.

 

[keras]

1 John 3:2 (ESV): Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

Keras, we will be like Him when he appears. This can only occur in the pre-Trib rapture, as we will be in our eternal bodies when He appears when we meet Him in the air (1 Th 4:17). This is from 1 Cor 15:52 that solely applies to 1 Th 4:16-17. These are more details of the pre-Trib rapture that beautifully complement Rev 4:1.

1 John 3:2 does not say we go to heaven, it does not say we receive eternal bodies when Jesus appears.
You have hallucinated and added those ideas to the Scripture. It will not go well for you, as your false beliefs are exposed.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

1 John 3:2 does not say we go to heaven, it does not say we receive eternal bodies when Jesus appears.
You have hallucinated and added those ideas to the Scripture. It will not go well for you, as your false beliefs are exposed.

Keras, you are not acknowledging the fact that many verses have different facts about the pre-Trib rapture. There isn't one verse about the pre-Trib rapture that has ALL of the pertinent facts. Does Rev 4:1 say anything about the 2W? Yet, the 2W are raptured in the same way from Rev 4:1. Does 1 Th 4:16-17 say anything about our being changed into our eternal bodies? No, because that's left up to 1 Cor 15:52, which provably serves only 1 Th 4:16-17.

1 John 3:2 comments on are being able to see Jesus as He is. We will be like Jesus in that we will have our eternal bodies. We will know we are immortal from that moment forward.

 

[keras]

1 John 3:2 comments on are being able to see Jesus as He is. We will be like Jesus in that we will have our eternal bodies. We will know we are immortal from that moment forward.

John 3:16....everyone who believes in Jesus may not perish, but have Eternal Life.
That is our Promise, but the reality does not come until the Judgment after the Millennium, when the Book of Life is opened.

We will be like Jesus when He Returns, only by His favour; by keeping His Commandments and by living righteously. People will still die in the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20

many verses have different facts about the pre-Trib rapture.

I have yet to see a verse that actually says; God will take His people to heaven, or anything similar.
The pre-trib rapture is a made up theory, which will never happen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

John 3:16....everyone who believes in Jesus may not perish, but have Eternal Life.
That is our Promise, but the reality does not come until the Judgment after the Millennium, when the Book of Life is opened.

We will be like Jesus when He Returns, only by His favour; by keeping His Commandments and by living righteously. People will still die in the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20

I have yet to see a verse that actually says; God will take His people to heaven, or anything similar.
The pre-trib rapture is a made up theory, which will never happen.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove that John was shown everything in his vision by one angel. That eliminates any possibility that John left Patmos and went to Heaven. If he did, somewhere he would've said so. He would've also commented on coming back to Earth, because we know he lived on Earth after writing Rev.

Therefore, by all of the evidence in Scripture regarding Rev 4:1, it stands as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

 

[keras]

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove that John was shown everything in his vision by one angel. That eliminates any possibility that John left Patmos and went to Heaven. If he did, somewhere he would've said so. He would've also commented on coming back to Earth, because we know he lived on Earth after writing Rev.

Therefore, by all of the evidence in Scripture regarding Rev 4:1, it stands as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Please case posting pathetic nonsense.
Revelation 4:1 obviously has nothing to do with what happens to the Church.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Please case posting pathetic nonsense.
Revelation 4:1 obviously has nothing to do with what happens to the Church.

John was never taken to Heaven in Rev 4:1. That is proven by Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8. Rev 4:1 was therefore written as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

There is no mention of the Church in the Trib.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): ... "I will keep you from the hour of trial." Jesus meant we believers will never enter the Trib.

1 Th 1:10 "delivers us" from "the coming wrath." The coming wrath in the Trib is the earliest wrath in the Trib. That is in the 2nd seal (worldwide wars) which are a form of God's wrath per Ezekiel 14:21. "Delivers us" in 1 Th 1:10 therefore means we will be snatched away from Earth before the Trib. Rev 4:1 will take us straight to Heaven.

There is proof that only unbelievers enter the Trib. Jesus said so in Rev 3:10 that only "those who dwell on the earth" will be tried by God's wrath in the Trib. In the context of the Trib, "those who dwell on the earth" refers to unbelievers, only. Proof: Rev 6:10 (ESV) and Rev 11:10 (ESV).

There are other references that prove Jesus' words are true that no believers will enter the Trib: Rev 6:4, Rev 6:15-17 and Rev 9:4.

There are millions of new converts in the Trib that begin in the 4th seal (if not the 2nd seal). Those new converts become martyrs and they are the souls under the altar in Rev 6:9 and in Rev 20:4. Those martyrs represent new converts in the Trib, by the millions, from at least the 4th seal (Rev 6:8) all the way through the Trib to Rev 16:9, per Rev 7:16. All those martyrs are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are next seen in Heaven in Rev 7:9. They immediately give profuse thanks to God Almighty specifically for their salvation, in Rev 7:10.

Keras, are Jesus's words false in Rev 3:10 about keeping us from the Trib? Is 1 Th 1:10 false about Jesus, who "delivers us from the wrath to come" before the Trib, due to God's wrath coming in the 2nd seal?

Are Jesus's words false in Rev 3:10 that only unbelievers will enter the Trib, when only "those who dwell on the earth" will be tried by God's wrath in the Trib, when "those who dwell on the earth," in the context of the Trib, only refers to unbelievers?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Rev 2:9 is your own example that describes tribulation (as one of its definitions) as the trials and travails of life as a Christian.

There are many verses with the word “tribulation.” They refer to the trials and travails of everyday life, most particularly involving persecution as the result of witnessing.

The book of Revelation is based on Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

One “week” in the above verse is seven years. Those seven years are about God’s wrath poured out on an unbelieving world, in the form of 21 judgments: seven seals (Rev 6 and Rev 8:1-5), seven trumpets (Rev 8:6-13; Rev 9 and Rev 11:15-19), and seven bowls (Rev 16).

Jesus referred to the Trib as “the hour of trial” in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib. Jesus said “I will keep YOU from the hour of trial.” We believers will not enter the Trib.

Jesus distinguished a second group in Rev 3:10 as “those who dwell on the earth.” That is a demeaning phrase that always refers to unbelievers, in the context of the Trib. Jesus said in Rev 3:10 that, “the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” Only unbelievers will be subjected to the 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

Rev 3:10


**What are Indicatives?**

Indicatives are the most common verb mood in Koine Greek. They express a statement of fact, a question, or a command. They are used to describe actions that are real, possible, or certain.

**Key Features of Indicatives:**

* **Expressing Reality:** They describe things that are happening, happened, or will happen.
* **Direct Statement:** They make a direct statement about an event or situation.
* **Questions:** They can be used to ask questions.
* **Commands:** In some cases, they can be used to give commands, although the imperative mood is more common for this.

**Tenses of Indicatives:**

Koine Greek indicatives have various tenses, each expressing a different time relationship:

* **Present:** Describes an action happening now.
* **Imperfect:** Describes an action happening in the past, often ongoing or repeated.
* **Aorist:** Describes a completed action in the past.
* **Future:** Describes an action that will happen in the future.
* **Perfect:** Describes an action that is completed and has a lasting result in the present.
* **Pluperfect:** Describes an action that was completed before another past action.

**Examples:**

* **Present:** **λέγει** (legei) - "he speaks" (action happening now)
* **Imperfect:** **ἔλεγεν** (elegen) - "he was speaking" (action happening in the past, ongoing)
* **Aorist:** **ἔλεξε** (elexe) - "he spoke" (action completed in the past)
* **Future:** **λέξει** (lexei) - "he will speak" (action happening in the future)
* **Perfect:** **λελέχα** (lelecha) - "he has spoken" (action completed with a lasting result)
* **Pluperfect:** **ελελέχει** (elelechei) - "he had spoken" (action completed before another past action)

You're claiming a "pre wrath" rapture at the same time you call it a "pre tribulation" rapture. In either case, the resurrection takes place first, and Jesus said over and over again that it would take place on the last day.

Rev 2:9 is your own example that describes tribulation (as one of its definitions) as the trials and travails of life as a Christian.

There are many verses with the word “tribulation.” They refer to the trials and travails of everyday life, most particularly involving persecution as the result of witnessing.

The book of Revelation is based on Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

One “week” in the above verse is seven years. Those seven years are about God’s wrath poured out on an unbelieving world, in the form of 21 judgments: seven seals (Rev 6 and Rev 8:1-5), seven trumpets (Rev 8:6-13; Rev 9 and Rev 11:15-19), and seven bowls (Rev 16).

Jesus referred to the Trib as “the hour of trial” in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib. Jesus said “I will keep YOU from the hour of trial.” We believers will not enter the Trib.

Jesus distinguished a second group in Rev 3:10 as “those who dwell on the earth.” That is a demeaning phrase that always refers to unbelievers, in the context of the Trib. Jesus said in Rev 3:10 that, “the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” Only unbelievers will be subjected to the 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

The first 3 1/2 years were "for thy people" when Christ came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Then the sacrifice for sin was ended in His blood. Hebrews 9:26Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
The second 3 1/2 years were for 'thy city" Rev11:1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
The forty years in between was the second Exodus when Christ was led the believers out of the bondage of sin into the New Jerusalem.

I'm with these early church fathers who believed Daniels 70 weeks was fulfilled when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed.
Several Ante-Nicene Church Fathers interpreted the destruction of Jerusalem as fulfilling the prophecy of the 70 weeks found in the Book of Daniel. These Fathers include:

1. **Julius Africanus** (c. 160 – c. 240 AD): Julius Africanus is one of the earliest Christian chronographers who interpreted Daniel's 70 weeks. He proposed that the 70 weeks prophecy pointed to events culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem.

2. **Origen** (c. 184 – c. 253 AD): Origen, an early Christian scholar and theologian, also connected the 70 weeks prophecy with the destruction of Jerusalem. He saw the events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem as the fulfillment of Daniel's vision.

3. **Eusebius of Caesarea** (c. 260/265 – 339/340 AD): Eusebius, a church historian, wrote extensively about the prophecy of the 70 weeks in his works. He interpreted the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD as a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

4. **Hippolytus of Rome** (c. 170 – c. 235 AD): Hippolytus, an early Christian theologian and apologist, also interpreted Daniel's 70 weeks as being fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem. In his works, he linked the events of the 70 weeks with the coming of Christ and the subsequent desolation of the city.

5. **Tertullian** (c. 155 – c. 240 AD): Tertullian, an early Christian author from Carthage, made connections between the 70 weeks prophecy and the destruction of Jerusalem in his writings. He viewed the events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem as a significant fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

Rev 3:10-1110Because you have kept My command to persevere(This is what the church at Philadelphia was already doing and was the reason He would do the following), I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

"YOU" is a pronoun that replaces the antecedent nouns "church at Philadelphia". Are you using some new kind of grammar that I'm unaware of? It is my belief that if He was referring to all believers He would have told them.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Rev 3:10


**What are Indicatives?**

Indicatives are the most common verb mood in Koine Greek. They express a statement of fact, a question, or a command. They are used to describe actions that are real, possible, or certain.

**Key Features of Indicatives:**

* **Expressing Reality:** They describe things that are happening, happened, or will happen.
* **Direct Statement:** They make a direct statement about an event or situation.
* **Questions:** They can be used to ask questions.
* **Commands:** In some cases, they can be used to give commands, although the imperative mood is more common for this.

**Tenses of Indicatives:**

Koine Greek indicatives have various tenses, each expressing a different time relationship:

* **Present:** Describes an action happening now.
* **Imperfect:** Describes an action happening in the past, often ongoing or repeated.
* **Aorist:** Describes a completed action in the past.
* **Future:** Describes an action that will happen in the future.
* **Perfect:** Describes an action that is completed and has a lasting result in the present.
* **Pluperfect:** Describes an action that was completed before another past action.

**Examples:**

* **Present:** **λέγει** (legei) - "he speaks" (action happening now)
* **Imperfect:** **ἔλεγεν** (elegen) - "he was speaking" (action happening in the past, ongoing)
* **Aorist:** **ἔλεξε** (elexe) - "he spoke" (action completed in the past)
* **Future:** **λέξει** (lexei) - "he will speak" (action happening in the future)
* **Perfect:** **λελέχα** (lelecha) - "he has spoken" (action completed with a lasting result)
* **Pluperfect:** **ελελέχει** (elelechei) - "he had spoken" (action completed before another past action)

You're claiming a "pre wrath" rapture at the same time you call it a "pre tribulation" rapture. In either case, the resurrection takes place first, and Jesus said over and over again that it would take place on the last day.


The first 3 1/2 years were "for thy people" when Christ came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Then the sacrifice for sin was ended in His blood. Hebrews 9:26Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
The second 3 1/2 years were for 'thy city" Rev11:1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
The forty years in between was the second Exodus when Christ was led the believers out of the bondage of sin into the New Jerusalem.

I'm with these early church fathers who believed Daniels 70 weeks was fulfilled when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed.
Several Ante-Nicene Church Fathers interpreted the destruction of Jerusalem as fulfilling the prophecy of the 70 weeks found in the Book of Daniel. These Fathers include:

1. **Julius Africanus** (c. 160 – c. 240 AD): Julius Africanus is one of the earliest Christian chronographers who interpreted Daniel's 70 weeks. He proposed that the 70 weeks prophecy pointed to events culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem.

2. **Origen** (c. 184 – c. 253 AD): Origen, an early Christian scholar and theologian, also connected the 70 weeks prophecy with the destruction of Jerusalem. He saw the events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem as the fulfillment of Daniel's vision.

3. **Eusebius of Caesarea** (c. 260/265 – 339/340 AD): Eusebius, a church historian, wrote extensively about the prophecy of the 70 weeks in his works. He interpreted the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD as a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

4. **Hippolytus of Rome** (c. 170 – c. 235 AD): Hippolytus, an early Christian theologian and apologist, also interpreted Daniel's 70 weeks as being fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem. In his works, he linked the events of the 70 weeks with the coming of Christ and the subsequent desolation of the city.

5. **Tertullian** (c. 155 – c. 240 AD): Tertullian, an early Christian author from Carthage, made connections between the 70 weeks prophecy and the destruction of Jerusalem in his writings. He viewed the events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem as a significant fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

Rev 3:10-1110Because you have kept My command to persevere(This is what the church at Philadelphia was already doing and was the reason He would do the following), I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

"YOU" is a pronoun that replaces the antecedent nouns "church at Philadelphia". Are you using some new kind of grammar that I'm unaware of? It is my belief that if He was referring to all believers He would have told them.

Daniel's 70th week has not yet occurred. Matt 24 and Rev 6, 8, 11 and 16 prove that Daniel's 70th week is in the future.

Matt 24:3 (ESV): As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The answer Jesus gave is in Matt 24:4-28. The first half of Daniel's 70th week is described by Jesus in Matt 24:4-9. The second half is described in verses 15-28.

In Matt 24:4-9, Jesus was describing what will appear later in Rev 6:1-7.

One point to prove that all of that has not yet occurred is in Rev 6:8. Over a fourth of the population will be killed within months. Rev 6:8 (ESV) says this massive death total will occur from "sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth." "Sword" refers to wars. This probably means nuclear wars that cause this much death over a short period of time. That certainly has not yet occurred.

The 3.5 years of tribulation (Matt 24:4-14) and great tribulation (Matt 24:21) are about God’s wrath poured out on an unbelieving world, in the form of 21 judgments. Those judgments will be seven seals (Rev 6 and Rev 8:1-5), seven trumpets (Rev 8:6-13; Rev 9 and Rev 11:15-19), and seven bowls (Rev 16).

Those 21 judgments of God's wrath that are concentrated in a seven-year period have not yet occurred.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Daniel's 70th week has not yet occurred. Matt 24 and Rev 6, 8, 11 and 16 prove that Daniel's 70th week is in the future.

Matt 24:3 (ESV): As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The answer Jesus gave is in Matt 24:4-28. The first half of Daniel's 70th week is described by Jesus in Matt 24:4-9. The second half is described in verses 15-28.

In Matt 24:4-9, Jesus was describing what will appear later in Rev 6:1-7.

One point to prove that all of that has not yet occurred is in Rev 6:8. Over a fourth of the population will be killed within months. Rev 6:8 (ESV) says this massive death total will occur from "sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth." "Sword" refers to wars. This probably means nuclear wars that cause this much death over a short period of time. That certainly has not yet occurred.

The 3.5 years of tribulation (Matt 24:4-14) and great tribulation (Matt 24:21) are about God’s wrath poured out on an unbelieving world, in the form of 21 judgments. Those judgments will be seven seals (Rev 6 and Rev 8:1-5), seven trumpets (Rev 8:6-13; Rev 9 and Rev 11:15-19), and seven bowls (Rev 16).

Those 21 judgments of God's wrath that are concentrated in a seven-year period have not yet occurred.

Daniel 7:25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.
3 1/2 Years again.
Saints can't be raptured and given into his hands at the same time.

The judgements were those of Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26:21“Then if you walk contrary to me and will not listen to me, I will continue striking you, sevenfold for your sins. 22And I will let loose the wild beasts against you, which shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock and make you few in number, so that your roads shall be deserted.

And obviously the sacrifice and the grain offering ended 2,000 years ago.

Luke 23:27A great number of people followed Him, including women who kept mourning and wailing for Him. 28But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed!’ 30At that time
‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’
(The reason the daughters of Jerusalem should weep for themselves and their children and right after their men said they had no king but Caesar and said His blood be upon us and our children, cursing their own selves)

Rev 6:15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”
From a biblical standpoint, this is the whole earth Table of nations Genesis 10
Each of the successive 4 kingdoms described in Daniel was "called the whole earth". We can see this in Rev as the New Jerusalem is described as the Most Holy Place and the size of the Roman empire, about 2,000,000 square miles or 5,000,000 square kilometers.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Daniel 7:25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.
3 1/2 Years again.
Saints can't be raptured and given into his hands at the same time.

The judgements were those of Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26:21“Then if you walk contrary to me and will not listen to me, I will continue striking you, sevenfold for your sins. 22And I will let loose the wild beasts against you, which shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock and make you few in number, so that your roads shall be deserted.

And obviously the sacrifice and the grain offering ended 2,000 years ago.

Luke 23:27A great number of people followed Him, including women who kept mourning and wailing for Him. 28But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed!’ 30At that time
‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’
(The reason the daughters of Jerusalem should weep for themselves and their children and right after their men said they had no king but Caesar and said His blood be upon us and our children, cursing their own selves)

Rev 6:15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”
From a biblical standpoint, this is the whole earth Table of nations Genesis 10
Each of the successive 4 kingdoms described in Daniel was "called the whole earth". We can see this in Rev as the New Jerusalem is described as the Most Holy Place and the size of the Roman empire, about 2,000,000 square miles or 5,000,000 square kilometers.

The book of Revelation is the last book of the Bible. It is all about the future from chapter
4 onward. That would include chapter 6.

The 21 judgements of God’s wrath in Revelation have no equal anywhere else in the Bible. There are other earthquakes and famines, etc., but none are equal to the death tolls and horrific elements that are included in the 21 judgments.

A good example is Rev 9:3-10. Those are locusts that have never been on Earth, before. Read about those locusts, please. They will only occur in the future, just as the 21 judgments of God’s wrath (which include the locusts cited in Rev 9:3-10).

 

[Ed Parenteau]

The book of Revelation is the last book of the Bible. It is all about the future from chapter
4 onward. That would include chapter 6.

The 21 judgements of God’s wrath in Revelation have no equal anywhere else in the Bible. There are other earthquakes and famines, etc., but none are equal to the death tolls and horrific elements that are included in the 21 judgments.

A good example is Rev 9:3-10. Those are locusts that have never been on Earth, before. Read about those locusts, please. They will only occur in the future, just as the 21 judgments of God’s wrath (which include the locusts cited in Rev 9:3-10).

The book of Revelation may be placed last in the Bible, but Jude must be the last book written as he says:1:3 "...the faith once and for all delivered to the saints".
Besides they were already knowledgeable about the "revelation of Jesus Christ."
In the following verses we are told 4 things:
1 Corinthians 1:7Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly await the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
A. They didn't lack any spiritual gift.
B. They were eagerly waiting for the revelation of Jesus Christ.
C. He would sustain them to the end so that.
D. They would be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Then Hebrews 9:28:so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Here are others who were revealed by the Holy Spirit to be eagerly waiting for Him. Strong's Greek: 553. ἀπεκδέχομαι (apekdechomai) -- To eagerly await, to expect fully
There are 3 choices:
A. Kept His promise.
B. Has never to this day kept that promise.
C. Scripture doesn't mean what it says.
D. Or?

As to Revelation 9, like most of Revelation, it's seen in a vision in the spirit making it figurative and not literal.
Joel 1-3 is the prophecy of these "locusts" of the "day of the Lord" at the time of the Spirit being poured out in the "last days".
Rev 9 is figurative of the Roman army as God's army. One can clearly see this as to what's written according to Joel, especially in chapter 2 describing how they marched through their enemies.

One has to understand what a simile is. Then count how many times "like" is used in
chapter 9 as well as in Joel.
A simile is a figure of speech that compares two different things using the words like or as. It is used to create vivid imagery or make a description more expressive by highlighting similarities between the two subjects.

For example:

• "Her smile was as bright as the sun."
• "He runs like the wind."

Both comparisons use as or like to show how one thing resembles another.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The book of Revelation may be placed last in the Bible, but Jude must be the last book written as he says:1:3 "...the faith once and for all delivered to the saints".
Besides they were already knowledgeable about the "revelation of Jesus Christ."
In the following verses we are told 4 things:
1 Corinthians 1:7Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly await the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
A. They didn't lack any spiritual gift.
B. They were eagerly waiting for the revelation of Jesus Christ.
C. He would sustain them to the end so that.
D. They would be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Then Hebrews 9:28:so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Here are others who were revealed by the Holy Spirit to be eagerly waiting for Him. Strong's Greek: 553. ἀπεκδέχομαι (apekdechomai) -- To eagerly await, to expect fully
There are 3 choices:
A. Kept His promise.
B. Has never to this day kept that promise.
C. Scripture doesn't mean what it says.
D. Or?

As to Revelation 9, like most of Revelation, it's seen in a vision in the spirit making it figurative and not literal.
Joel 1-3 is the prophecy of these "locusts" of the "day of the Lord" at the time of the Spirit being poured out in the "last days".
Rev 9 is figurative of the Roman army as God's army. One can clearly see this as to what's written according to Joel, especially in chapter 2 describing how they marched through their enemies.

One has to understand what a simile is. Then count how many times "like" is used in
chapter 9 as well as in Joel.
A simile is a figure of speech that compares two different things using the words like or as. It is used to create vivid imagery or make a description more expressive by highlighting similarities between the two subjects.

For example:

• "Her smile was as bright as the sun."
• "He runs like the wind."

Both comparisons use as or like to show how one thing resembles another.

Are you saying that Rev 9:3-10 is not a literal description of the locusts mentioned therein?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Are you saying that Rev 9:3-10 is not a literal description of the locusts mentioned therein?

What did the locusts look like? Just like a Roman army with horses, riders, chariots, breastplates as well as Roman scorpions taken along in the final 5month siege of Jerusalem.
Joel 2:
4Their appearance is like that of horses, and they gallop like swift steeds.
5With a sound like that of chariots they bound over the mountaintops,
Revelation 9:7:In appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, 8their hair like women’s hair, and their teeth like lions’ teeth; 9they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle.

Then v17 makes it clear.17Now the horses and riders in my vision looked like this: The riders had breastplates the colors of fire, sapphire, and sulfur. The heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceeded fire, smoke, and sulfur.
Why would you take visions in the Spirit literally? Is Jesus literally a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns, or does He have hair like wool with eyes ablaze, or does He have a sword coming out of His mouth, etc.?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What did the locusts look like? Just like a Roman army with horses, riders, chariots, breastplates as well as Roman scorpions taken along in the final 5month siege of Jerusalem.
Joel 2:
4Their appearance is like that of horses, and they gallop like swift steeds.
5With a sound like that of chariots they bound over the mountaintops,
Revelation 9:7:In appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, 8their hair like women’s hair, and their teeth like lions’ teeth; 9they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle.

Then v17 makes it clear.17Now the horses and riders in my vision looked like this: The riders had breastplates the colors of fire, sapphire, and sulfur. The heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceeded fire, smoke, and sulfur.
Why would you take visions in the Spirit literally? Is Jesus literally a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns, or does He have hair like wool with eyes ablaze, or does He have a sword coming out of His mouth, etc.?

There is an abundance of details in those visions. Those details came from God. Are you calling God, Joel and John liars for their factual descriptions of what's to come in Rev 9:3-10?

 

[keras]

There is an abundance of details in those visions. Those details came from God. Are you calling God, Joel and John liars for their factual descriptions of what's to come in Rev 9:3-10?

This is just goofy.
In Joel and Revelation, the descriptions are 'like', not actual locusts. There is a physical way these Prophesies can be fulfilled, something not known in ancient times, that is why Joel and John used metaphorical language.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Rev 9:3-10 (ESV): 3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

7 In appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, 8 their hair like women's hair, and their teeth like lions' teeth; 9 they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. 10 They have tails and stings like scorpions, and their power to hurt people for five months is in their tails.

Verses 3 and 7 use the word "locusts" and never the phrase "like locusts." Therefore, those locusts are actual. The focus is Rev 9:3-10, because this is proof that the 21 judgments of God's wrath in the Trib have no equal outside of the Trib. The locusts cited above are the centerpiece of the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:1-3).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Rev 9:3-10 (ESV): 3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

7 In appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, 8 their hair like women's hair, and their teeth like lions' teeth; 9 they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. 10 They have tails and stings like scorpions, and their power to hurt people for five months is in their tails.

Verses 3 and 7 use the word "locusts" and never the phrase "like locusts." Therefore, those locusts are actual. The focus is Rev 9:3-10, because this is proof that the 21 judgments of God's wrath in the Trib have no equal outside of the Trib. The locusts cited above are the centerpiece of the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:1-3).

Keras, are you laughing at apostle John? You mock but you fail to refute.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Rev 9:3-10 (ESV): 3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

7 In appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, 8 their hair like women's hair, and their teeth like lions' teeth; 9 they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. 10 They have tails and stings like scorpions, and their power to hurt people for five months is in their tails.

Verses 3 and 7 use the word "locusts" and never the phrase "like locusts." Therefore, those locusts are actual. The focus is Rev 9:3-10, because this is proof that the 21 judgments of God's wrath in the Trib have no equal outside of the Trib. The locusts cited above are the centerpiece of the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:1-3).

Keras, you criticize when you can't refute. Thank you for admitting defeat.