Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Douggg]

Sure if you skip over what actually happens when a Trumpet sounds.

That verse does not say the 7th Trumpet would sound, and then the 5th Trumpet, and then the 6th Trumpet.

Those 42 months do not cover the 5th and 6th Trumpet.

Textually, in Revelation 9-12, the fifth angel sounds, then the sixth angel sounds, then the seventh angel sounds, revealing what the woes will be.

On the time line, the third woe begins, then the first woe takes place, then the second woe takes place, then the third woe ends when Jesus returns and Satan imprisoned.

 

[Timtofly]

Textually, in Revelation 9-12, the fifth angel sounds, then the sixth angel sounds, then the seventh angel sounds, revealing what the woes will be.

I will stick with the text, and not "The Dougg".

Your version leaves out the fact that the text actually declares 7 Thunders happen between the 2nd woe and the 7th Trumpet. They are not part of the 2nd woe.

The 7 Thunders are just as applicable as a Trumpet judgment. Since you do not know what they do, and their length, you cannot change what John wrote and move events around just because you don't accept God's timing.

How do you know if that 200 million man army is not destroyed in one of the 7 Thunders?

Currently available from the east would be around 10 million troops. To get to the 200 million point would be a lot of untrained soldiers, but scripted for an emergency. That would mean an instant 190 million civilians. And these all could fit into the valley of Jezreel.

The point I am making is that after 3.5 years, there may only be about 100 to 90 million people left on the earth, and all part of this instant military explosion. There is currently no plans by any world nation to have a combined strength of 200 million. At the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, and the total destruction, that would precipitate an immediate survival military mode for many nations. That is why you have 10 horns pop up commanding 10 different national interest. And Asia is the most multi national area. Asia also has the largest population centers of the world.

John is just telling us that by means of an instant military build up, 2 billion other people will be killed in the process. The 2nd woe is a drastic decrease in population equal to the already 2 billion decrease in the 4th Seal. By the 6th Trumpet including the church removed the current 8 billion population could easily have been lowered to only 2 billion total. And one quarter of that count are scripted military personnel with constant use of weapons. Since we have no information from the 7 Thunders that amount by the end of the 7th Thunder could be down to only a billion, and half of that a scripted army.

That will be the makeup of Satan's empire the last 3.5 years, and all humanity will have been already gathered into the ME area. And the process of survival at that point will create all people as having the mark, and all will be ruthless just to survive. After 3.5 years God will gather all of humanity to Megiddo to stand in judgment. All will be under the assumption Satan requested their presence to defend his empire.

You place the two woes in those last 42 months to make it look like all are being gathered at the last minute, then want billions of others to be left scattered across the earth. That is not how John depicted the end to play out. Most of the trained military and even conscripted civilians will have already been gathered to protect Satan's empire from the get go. Most non military people will have been killed in the process.

Then you all deny that Jesus is on the earth redeeming millions and tossing billions into the LOF.

Does John figure in the final harvest of redeemed into his figures?

Jesus sits in judgment over those still physically alive on the earth, not after all are dead at Armageddon.

Those people actually killed by others during this time are all the rest of the dead waiting in death and sheol until after the thousand years. However there are many during this time tossed alive into the LOF. Their eternal destination already handed down by Jesus before physical death. There is no waiting for a thousand years for millions.

3 groups of people will not be on the earth by the 7th Trumpet. The church will have been removed. Either in heaven or in the LOF. The tares being judged and their eternal destination already determined. All of Jacob's offspring removed. Not one soul left on the earth. The sheep removed to the sea of glass. The goats tossed into the LOF.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

This is the LOF. This is not the temporary grave called sheol. Same with the tares:

"And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

These are not the rest of the dead. These have already stood in Judgment before Jesus and their names removed from the unsealed Lamb's book of life, and there is no more judgment to stand at.

 

[Douggg]

Your version leaves out the fact that the text actually declares 7 Thunders happen between the 2nd woe and the 7th Trumpet. They are not part of the 2nd woe.

We are not told what the 7 thunders say. Nor that when they take place on a time line.

The point I am making is that after 3.5 years, there may only be about 100 to 90 million people left on the earth, and all part of this instant military explosion. There is currently no plans by any world nation to have a combined strength of 200 million.

It is not known what the population of the world will be at the time of the sixth trumpet second woe. China's current population is 1,400,000,000. Japan's current population is 125,000,000. Korea's (north and south) current population is 80,000,000 . Vietnam's current population is 101, 000,000.

Total of around 1,700, 000, 000. So if at the time that the sixth trumpet second woe takes place and the population has been cut in half, leaving mostly younger people in the 20-50 year old range. That would leave a 850,000,000 fighting age population. So a combined armies of 200,000,000 is possible.

 

[Timtofly]

We are not told what the 7 thunders say. Nor that when they take place on a time line.


It is not known what the population of the world will be at the time of the sixth trumpet second woe. China's current population is 1,400,000,000. Japan's current population is 125,000,000. Korea's (north and south) current population is 80,000,000 . Vietnam's current population is 101, 000,000.

Total of around 1,700, 000, 000. So if at the time that the sixth trumpet second woe takes place and the population has been cut in half, leaving mostly younger people in the 20-50 year old range. That would leave a 850,000,000 fighting age population. So a combined armies of 200,000,000 is possible.

Of course we know when they happen. The 7 Thunders happen just after the 2nd woe.


"By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.... And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices."

Your army count is based on what though? I already pointed out that out of billions of possible individuals, the nation's of Asia still have only trained a standing army of 10 million. Having an army and having people shoot a gun are two seperate phenomenon. A nation could conscript their police force, but still not an army.

Scripture states that 25 percent of humanity is killed in the Seals. Then 30 percent in the first 6 Trumpets. Right there is half the population, and we don't even know if that includes the 2 billion people who claim to be Christians.

I am not saying that army is not impossible. I am saying that it will not be a trained professional army under normal standards.

 

[Douggg]

Of course we know when they happen. The 7 Thunders happen just after the 2nd woe.

Revelation 10:1 starts another vision. John was told not to write down what the voices of the seven thunders said.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You think in your second half period of the two witnesses that when they are killed at the very end of the 70th week in your view, the world is going to make merry and exchange gifts over their deaths.

Look at these different renditions on a google search of what the cities and land will look like at that time. Plus men are going to be crushed with giant hailstones at that time, Revelation 16:21. You notion of celebrating and making merry and exchanging gifts at that time is not realistic.

apocalyptic scene near the end of the great tribulation - Bing

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Doug, you rely on non-biblical sources, including your erroneous timeline. I rely on God's words in the Bible. Prove to me that "will trample" and "will prophesy" in Rev 11:2-3 aren't future tense for the trampling and for the 2W to start their prophesying just before the midpoint. Prove it!

Malachi 4:5 (NLT): “Look, I am sending you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord arrives.

Prove to me that Elijah, as one of the 2W, doesn't arrive just before the midpoint to have the prophesying start.

Prove to me that the beast that kills the 2W isn't the beast in Rev 13:1-7.

 

[Douggg]

Prove to me that the beast that kills the 2W isn't the beast in Rev 13:1-7.

The beast that kills the two witnesses is the beast king in Revelation 13:1-7. He rules as the beast-king for 42 months, Revelation 13:5

He becomes the beast in the first half, before the statue image is made of him and placed on the temple mount, 1335 days before Jesus return.

As the beast, he kills the two witnesses on day 1260. Then the beast rules for 42 months, without the presence of the two witnesses to hamper him. During the 42 months, his armies will trample down Jerusalem.

 

[Douggg]

Malachi 4:5 (NLT): “Look, I am sending you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord arrives.

Yes, that will be in the 1260 days of the first half.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes, that will be in the 1260 days of the first half.

Doug, Elijah will return just before the midpoint. He returns just before the GT in the second half. The first half is history.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The beast that kills the two witnesses is the beast king in Revelation 13:1-7. He rules as the beast-king for 42 months, Revelation 13:5

He becomes the beast in the first half, before the statue image is made of him and placed on the temple mount, 1335 days before Jesus return.

As the beast, he kills the two witnesses on day 1260. Then the beast rules for 42 months, without the presence of the two witnesses to hamper him. During the 42 months, his armies will trample down Jerusalem.

Doug, that beast starts his 42 months in Rev 13:5. He does not kill the 2W until verse 7. Therefore the beast fulfills the majority of his 42 months (verse 5) before he kills the 2W (verse 7).

I am going by the strict sequence in the Bible. Please do likewise.

It’s the same with Rev 11:2-3. The future tenses point to the future. The midpoint is that first future point. The biblical sequence therefore is Rev 11:2-3, then Matt 24:14-16. Go by the strict sequence in the Bible, please. I am going by the strict sequence. You insist on reshuffling them, just like you’re insisting in Rev 13. Doug, verse 5 comes before verse 7, about 41.5 months before.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, that beast starts his 42 months in Rev 13:5. He does not kill the 2W until verse 7.

Before verse 7,

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Who had the beast just make war on, before his 42 months of verse 5 begins ?

 

[Douggg]

Doug, Elijah will return just before the midpoint. He returns just before the GT in the second half. The first half is history.

You did not read the rest of Malachi 4 concerning Elijah. In verse 6, Elijah softens the heats of the fathers and their children before the great tribulation begins. The great tribulation begins on day 1185 of the 7 years, 1335 days before Jesus returns. Elijah will be preaching for first 1260 days of the 7 years.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 11:16-18 is the reaction of them in heaven when they hear the seventh angel sound his trumpet - because in Revelation 10:7 in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, the mystery of God shall be finished. Revelation 11:18 is what God had declared through his servants the prophets.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is not the reaction of them in heaven to the seventh angel sounding. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is Revelation 12:12.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I don't know what you're talking about. There are certain things said to happen at the seventh trumpet, as recorded in Revelation 11:15-18. Such as the kingdom(s) of the world becoming the kingdom(s) of God the Father and His Christ, God's wrath having come, those who destroy the earth being destroyed, the dead being judged and believers being rewarded. What do those things have to do with "the reaction of them in heaven when they hear the seventh angel sound his trumpet"? You seem to ignore all the things that it says will happen at the sound of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. None of which have anything to do with Satan being cast out of heaven and Satan having great wrath.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You did not read the rest of Malachi 4 concerning Elijah. In verse 6, Elijah softens the heats of the fathers and their children before the great tribulation begins. The great tribulation begins on day 1185 of the 7 years, 1335 days before Jesus returns. Elijah will be preaching for first 1260 days of the 7 years.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Doug, the “great and terrible day of the Lord” is the GT. Jesus spoke of it in Matt 24:21 (ESV): For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

You still ignore the future tense in Rev 11:2-3. The future tense in “will trample” and “will prophesy” points forward in time only, to Matt 24:14-16.

There are 42 months for the beast that start in Rev 13:5. Those 42 months end shortly after Rev 13:7. Those 42 months comprise the biblical gap in time of about 3.5 years between Rev 11:3 and Rev 11:7.

I’m going by the strict sequence of the Bible.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

By "reason of". No verse says a Trumpet is also a woe.

Right. The three woes are a direct result of (caused by, by reason of) the sounding of the last 3 trumpets. What is hard to understand about that?

That is exactly what this verse indicates:

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So, if you want to know what happens with the first woe, you just need to read the description of what happens at the sounding of the fifth trumpet in Revelation 9:1-11. For the second woe, just read the description of what happens at the sound of the sixth trumpet in Revelation 9:13-21. For the third woe just read the description of what happens at the sounds of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Very simple.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, the “great and terrible day of the Lord” is the GT.

I agree.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel is standing in a holy place.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

So the abomination of desolation will be setup 1335 days before Jesus returns on day 2520 of the 7 years. 2520-1335 = 1185.

The abomination of desolation will be set up on day 1185. Before then, Elijah will be preaching, softening the hearts of the fathers and their children.

Elijah will be softening the hearts of the Jews, who presently have hardened their hearts to the gospel of salvation and Jesus.

Elijah will be preaching for 1260 days of the first half of the 7 years.

 

[Douggg]

I don't know what you're talking about.

You don't know what the word "reaction" means ? The reaction in heaven to Satan's time being about up is the rejoicing in Revelation 11:15-17.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

rejoice, ye heavens...15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

and ye that dwell in them....16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Revelation 11:18, summarizes the mystery of God (Revelation 10:7) that He had declared to His servants, the prophets.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I agree.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel is standing in a holy place.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

So the abomination of desolation will be setup 1335 days before Jesus returns on day 2520 of the 7 years. 2520-1335 = 1185.

The abomination of desolation will be set up on day 1185. Before then, Elijah will be preaching, softening the hearts of the fathers and their children.

Elijah will be softening the hearts of the Jews, who presently have hardened their hearts to the gospel of salvation and Jesus.

Elijah will be preaching for 1260 days of the first half of the 7 years.

Doug, Elijah shows up just before the 2nd half, when the first half is already near its end. Rev 11:2-3 are about the future. The 'will trample" (verse 2) and "will prophesy" (verse 3) are in the future, meaning they happen just before the midpoint. It is scripturally impossible to put the 2W back in time, to align with your claim that their 1,260 days are fulfilled in the first half.

Your claim is further invalidated by Rev 13:5-7. The beast first embarks on his 42 months (verse 5). Then, near the end of those 42 months, he kills the 2W (verse 7). Those are scriptural facts you cannot invalidate.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 10:1 starts another vision. John was told not to write down what the voices of the seven thunders said.

Are you saying John had 2 dreams running concurrently at the same time?

John never stated when he stopped having a vision. Or a new one started.

Besides, I don't see John as having "waking visions". I see him writing down events as they happened, while awake.

Are you saying that when John arrived in heaven, he fell asleep?

 

[Douggg]

Are you saying John had 2 dreams running concurrently at the same time?

They are not dreams. They are visions that played out in heaven. As everyone in heaven watched.

Not concurrently. But one following the other.