Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Douggg]

Doug, Elijah shows up just before the 2nd half, when the first half is already near its end. Rev 11:2-3 are about the future. The 'will trample" (verse 2) and "will prophesy" (verse 3) are in the future, meaning they happen just before the midpoint. It is scripturally impossible to put the 2W back in time, to align with your claim that their 1,260 days are fulfilled in the first half.

The use of future tense in Revelation 11:2-3 means things that take place in the end times, not back in John's day.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes, future of us, in the coming 7year 70th week.


You are not being clear.

There are these end time's time frames in the bible.



View attachment 357376



Matthew 24:14 is the long term 2000 year spreading of the gospel of the kingdom of God. It is not restricted to the 1260 days of the two witnesses.

The fleeing begins when the abomination of desolation will be set-up, on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns, Daniel 12:12, not the midpoint day 1260. The 42 months that the gentiles will trample down Jerusalem under the reign of the beast king of 42 months will be after the two witnesses will have left this earth.



View attachment 357379

The midpoint is not the exact middle of the Trib. It’s simply the dividing point of the first and second half. You’re trying to make exact math define the Trib. You can’t succeed at that because both halves of the Trib are not equal. Even Jesus says they’re not equal in Matt 24:22 (ESV):

We are not told what the 7 thunders say. Nor that when they take place on a time line.


It is not known what the population of the world will be at the time of the sixth trumpet second woe. China's current population is 1,400,000,000. Japan's current population is 125,000,000. Korea's (north and south) current population is 80,000,000 . Vietnam's current population is 101, 000,000.

Total of around 1,700, 000, 000. So if at the time that the sixth trumpet second woe takes place and the population has been cut in half, leaving mostly younger people in the 20-50 year old range. That would leave a 850,000,000 fighting age population. So a combined armies of 200,000,000 is possible.

You can make reasonable estimates of the Trib’s population this way:

Let’s say the population will be 8 billion before the pre-Trib rapture.

Just before the Trib starts, all believers (alive and newly resurrected) will be taken to Heaven (about 2 billion people).

Rev 6:4 kills no less than millions of people.

Rev 6:8 kills at least 25% of the population.

Rev 9:8 kills one-third of the population.

Even before the bowl judgements, the population is down to about 2.5 billion.

 

[Timtofly]

Right. The three woes are a direct result of (caused by, by reason of) the sounding of the last 3 trumpets. What is hard to understand about that?

That is exactly what this verse indicates:

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So, if you want to know what happens with the first woe, you just need to read the description of what happens at the sounding of the fifth trumpet in Revelation 9:1-11. For the second woe, just read the description of what happens at the sound of the sixth trumpet in Revelation 9:13-21. For the third woe just read the description of what happens at the sounds of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Very simple.

No.

The event that happens is not the actual woe.

The event does lead to another event. The secondary event is not the primary event. The Trumpet is the primary event. The woes are secondary events.


When the angels are loosed, after 5 months, they are attacking even heaven itself, thus two secondary events. The attack on heaven is not a woe. So why would you say the 5th Trumpet is an attack on heaven? Why would God send a Judgment on heaven itself?

All the 5th Trumpet does is allow the pit to be opened. That pit opened could lead to a lot of things. Obviously it is closed back when Satan is bound and placed in that pit.

 

[Timtofly]

They are not dreams. They are visions that played out in heaven. As everyone in heaven watched.

Not concurrently. But one following the other.

How could all in heaven be seeing the same vision at the same time? Do you have a verse that says God was showing all in heaven the same projection?

How can you say every one saw the Thunders before the 7th Trumpet, but then you go back and say they saw the 5th and 6th Trumpet again?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The use of future tense in Revelation 11:2-3 means things that take place in the end times, not back in John's day.

Doug, Rev 11:2-3 are future tense for "trampling" and "prophesying." They both take 42 months. So, no, the future tense is not about the end times. The trampling occurs before Matt 24:16 because the trampling creates the fleeing in verse 16. The 2W start in Matt 24:14.

 

[Douggg]

Let’s say the population will be 8 billion before the pre-Trib rapture.

The current population of those Eastern nations I listed, that would make up the armies of the kings of the east, Total of around
1,700, 000, 000. i.e. 1.7 billion.

Use real numbers.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, Rev 11:2-3 are future tense for "trampling" and "prophesying."

In Revelation 11:1, John is told to measure the end times temple. In Revelation 11:2, John was told not to measure the outer court. Revelation 11:2-3, trampling of Jerusalem and prophesying of the two witness - future - in the end times. But Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 11:3 do not run concurrent with one another in the end times.

The 1260 days is first, then the 42 months.

first half
1260 days, Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

Second half
42 months, Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5

They both take 42 months.

No, the text says 42 months in Revelation 11:2. 1260 days in Revelation 11:3

You think they are concurrent - because you are unable to properly place the timeframes on the 7 year timeline -

and you don't understand why the two time frames are expressed as 42 months, the other as 1260 days.

And you have made no effort to create a timeline chart and post it.

. So, no, the future tense is not about the end times.

No, the two events will take place in the end times. Not something that has happened in the past.

The trampling occurs before Matt 24:16 because the trampling creates the fleeing in verse 16. The 2W start in Matt 24:14.

More misunderstanding of the scriptures by you. Matthew 24:14, the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom has been taking place over the past 2000 years, so that it has been heard in all nations. It is the calling that has been given to all Christians ever since Luke 24:44-48, the great commission to spread the gospel.

Luke 24:
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Matthew 24:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Douggg]

How could all in heaven be seeing the same vision at the same time? Do you have a verse that says God was showing all in heaven the same projection?

How can you say every one saw the Thunders before the 7th Trumpet, but then you go back and say they saw the 5th and 6th Trumpet again?

John did not make a video when he was in heaven. John wrote things down of what the saw and heard, that is known as the book of Revelation.

How everyone saw the visions played out in heaven - it was by the power of God.

In our times, we think of big screen TV's, the internet, and motion pictures projected, begun in 1920's, by the invention of men. In heaven, the power of God is immeasurably greater than the inventions by men.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The seven thunders were seven thunder-like voices uttering their words. The thunders were heard - not seen. John was told not to reveal, not write down, the uttered words.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The current population of those Eastern nations I listed, that would make up the armies of the kings of the east, Total of around
1,700, 000, 000. i.e. 1.7 trillion.

Use real numbers.

Real numbers?

Try using credible sources:

The global population reached nearly 8.2 billion by mid-2024 and is expected to grow by another two billion over the next 60 years, peaking at around 10.3 billion in the mid-2080s.

Source: Growing or shrinking? What the latest trends tell us about the world’s population

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

In Revelation 11:1, John is told to measure the end times temple. In Revelation 11:2, John was told not to measure the outer court. Revelation 11:2-3, trampling of Jerusalem and prophesying of the two witness - future - in the end times. But Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 11:3 do not run concurrent with one another in the end times.

The 1260 days is first, then the 42 months.

first half
1260 days, Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

Second half
42 months, Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5



No, the text says 42 months in Revelation 11:2. 1260 days in Revelation 11:3

You think they are concurrent - because you are unable to properly place the timeframes on the 7 year timeline -

and you don't understand why the two time frames are expressed as 42 months, the other as 1260 days.

And you have made no effort to create a timeline chart and post it.


No, the two events will take place in the end times. Not something that has happened in the past.



More misunderstanding of the scriptures by you. Matthew 24:14, the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom has been taking place over the past 2000 years, so that it has been heard in all nations. It is the calling that has been given to all Christians ever since Luke 24:44-48, the great commission to spread the gospel.

Luke 24:
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Matthew 24:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Doug, let’s settle this difference in Heaven, when all the facts will be undeniable.

God bless!

 

[Douggg]

Real numbers?

Try using credible sources:

The global population reached nearly 8.2 billion by mid-2024 and is expected to grow by another two billion over the next 60 years, peaking at around 10.3 billion in the mid-2080s.

Source: Growing or shrinking? What the latest trends tell us about the world’s population

I meant to say...

The current population of those Eastern nations I listed, that would make up the armies of the kings of the east, Total of around
1,700, 000, 000. i.e. 1.7 billion.

From my post #503.....

Total of around 1,700, 000, 000. So if at the time that the sixth trumpet second woe takes place and the population has been cut in half, leaving mostly younger people in the 20-50 year old range. That would leave a 850,000,000 fighting age population. So a combined armies of 200,000,000 is possible.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You don't know what the word "reaction" means ?

Of course I do. Why would you ask a dumb question like that?

The reaction in heaven to Satan's time being about up is the rejoicing in Revelation 11:15-17.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

rejoice, ye heavens...15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

and ye that dwell in them....16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Revelation 11:18, summarizes the mystery of God (Revelation 10:7) that He had declared to His servants, the prophets.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Do you see that part in verse 18 about God's wrath having come, those who destroy the earth being destroyed and the judgment of the dead? Why do you not mention any of that in relation to the seventh trumpet/third woe?

The third woe is caused by the seventh trumpet. That isn't even debatable because Revelation 8:13 makes it very clear that the three woes relate directly to the last 3 trumpets. So, the reason that the third woe is considered a woe is because of God's wrath and judgment against unbelievers that occurs after the seventh trumpet sounds. To try to make the third woe about Satan's wrath instead of God's wrath requires you to just completely ignore what is written in Revelation 11:18 in relation to the seventh trumpet/third woe.

 

[Douggg]

Do you see that part in verse 18 about God's wrath having come, those who destroy the earth being destroyed and the judgment of the dead? Why do you not mention any of that in relation to the seventh trumpet/third woe?

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Revelation 11:18 is part of the reaction when the seventh angel sounds, But what Revelation 11:18 does, it summarizes the mystery of God (read Revelation 10:7) that He had declared to His servants, the prophets.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

John did not make a video when he was in heaven. John wrote things down of what the saw and heard, that is known as the book of Revelation.

How everyone saw the visions played out in heaven - it was by the power of God.

In our times, we think of big screen TV's, the internet, and motion pictures projected, begun in 1920's, by the invention of men. In heaven, the power of God is immeasurably greater than the inventions by men.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The seven thunders were seven thunder-like voices uttering their words. The thunders were heard - not seen. John was told not to reveal, not write down, the uttered words.

You are still not backing up your point that all in heaven were seeing the same things: about the future.


Of course they saw them. John was in the future writing down everything he saw. Then he was taken back to Patmos to deliver the seven letters he wrote.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

In Revelation 11:1, John is told to measure the end times temple. In Revelation 11:2, John was told not to measure the outer court. Revelation 11:2-3, trampling of Jerusalem and prophesying of the two witness - future - in the end times. But Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 11:3 do not run concurrent with one another in the end times.

The 1260 days is first, then the 42 months.

first half
1260 days, Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

Second half
42 months, Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5



No, the text says 42 months in Revelation 11:2. 1260 days in Revelation 11:3

You think they are concurrent - because you are unable to properly place the timeframes on the 7 year timeline -

and you don't understand why the two time frames are expressed as 42 months, the other as 1260 days.

And you have made no effort to create a timeline chart and post it.


No, the two events will take place in the end times. Not something that has happened in the past.



More misunderstanding of the scriptures by you. Matthew 24:14, the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom has been taking place over the past 2000 years, so that it has been heard in all nations. It is the calling that has been given to all Christians ever since Luke 24:44-48, the great commission to spread the gospel.

Luke 24:
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Matthew 24:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The authority of the 2W is given just ahead of the midpoint because Rev 11:2-3 are verses just ahead of the midpoint. Verses 2 & 3 each contain future tense: “will trample” and “will prophesy.” They both start together, so the 42 months DOES run concurrently with the 1,260 days. That is further proven by the future tense in each of verses 2 & 3. Even more proof is Elijah, as one of the 2W, shows up just before the midpoint. Lastly, Rev 13:5 starts the beast for 42 months. Then, in Rev13:7, the beast kills the 2W. Therefore, Rev 11:3 and Rev 11:7 have about a 3.5-year gap between them. You cannot disprove that by the strict sequence of the verses I cited.

Matt 24:14 therefore does start the 2W, just as Matt 24:16 proves the trampling has started.

 

[Douggg]

They both start together, so the 42 months DOES run concurrently with the 1,260 days.

The 1260 days of Revelation12:6 is the same 1260 days of Revelation 11:2.

In Revelation 12 is the 7 year 70th week.

1260 days of Revelation 12:6 - making up the first half.
then the war in the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9.
then the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth in Revelation 12:12 - Satan's wrath.
a times, times, half time long in Revelation 12:14 - of the second half


You have no understanding of why the time expressions of the time, time, half time and the 42 months are not expressed as 1260 days. Here's why, because of the small chunks of time for the war in the second heaven and the 3 1/2 days that the two witlessness's bodies lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

1260 days + (the war in the second heaven time) + time, times, half time = 2520 days.

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 42 months (1256 1/2 days) = 2520 days

first half
1260 days, Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

(in the) second half
3 1/2 days, Revelation 11:11
42 months, Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half time, Revelation 12:14

Lastly, Rev 13:5 starts the beast for 42 months. Then, in Rev13:7, the beast kills the 2W. Therefore, Rev 11:3 and Rev 11:7 have about a 3.5-year gap between them. You cannot disprove that by the strict sequence of the verses I cited.

You did not prove anything because in Revelation 13:7 the two witnesses are not mentioned.

In Revelation 13:4, this expression (bolded) is found because the beast will have just made war on the two witnesses and killed them before his 42 months of reign begins in Revelation 13:5.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try making some timeline charts for the 7 year 70th week. And then post them. Don't keep repeating yourself of things that I have already proven wrong.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Revelation 11:18 is part of the reaction when the seventh angel sounds, But what Revelation 11:18 does, it summarizes the mystery of God (read Revelation 10:7) that He had declared to His servants, the prophets.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

You continue to act as if the part where it talks about God's wrath having come and Him destroying those who destroy the earth and it being the time of the dead being judged isn't there. Since it doesn't fit your doctrine to have God's wrath occurring at the seventh trumpet instead of Satan's wrath, you decided that you can just ignore the parts of Revelation 11:18 that don't line up with your doctrine.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The 1260 days of Revelation12:6 is the same 1260 days of Revelation 11:2.

In Revelation 12 is the 7 year 70th week.

1260 days of Revelation 12:6 - making up the first half.
then the war in the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9.
then the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth in Revelation 12:12 - Satan's wrath.
a times, times, half time long in Revelation 12:14 - of the second half


You have no understanding of why the time expressions of the time, time, half time and the 42 months are not expressed as 1260 days. Here's why, because of the small chunks of time for the war in the second heaven and the 3 1/2 days that the two witlessness's bodies lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

1260 days + (the war in the second heaven time) + time, times, half time = 2520 days.

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 42 months (1256 1/2 days) = 2520 days

first half
1260 days, Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

(in the) second half
3 1/2 days, Revelation 11:11
42 months, Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half time, Revelation 12:14


You did not prove anything because in Revelation 13:7 the two witnesses are not mentioned.

In Revelation 13:4, this expression (bolded) is found because the beast will have just made war on the two witnesses and killed them before his 42 months of reign begins in Revelation 13:5.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try making some timeline charts for the 7 year 70th week. And then post them. Don't keep repeating yourself of things that I have already proven wrong.

Doug, Rev 11:2-3 are about the future JUST BEFORE THE MIDPOINT. The "will trample" in verse 2 aligns with Matt 24:16. Verse 3 aligns with Matt 24:14 for the start of the 2W.

You can't show me one verse that aligns with the 2W starting in the first half, because they start at Matt 24:14.

 

[armchairscholar]

Where did the Great Multitude come from?

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:13 And *(1st) of the elders (Rev 5:5) answered, saying (participating authority) unto me (John), What are these (the great (significant) multitude) which are arrayed in white (purity) robes (Rev 7:12)? and whence (where did they come from) came they?

Rev 5:5 And *one of the elders says to me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to lose its seven seals.

What are these? (Rev Chapters 2&3

• Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and languages, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sit upon the throne, and to the Lamb.
• Rev 7:14-17 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they (Tribulation Saints) who came out of great (significant) tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple (1000-year Kingdom): and he (Jesus) that sits on the throne will dwell among them (New Creation). Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. Rev 7:17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them, and will lead them to living fountains of waters: and God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Significant Multitude are Tribulation Saints

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Rev 7:14a And I (John) said unto him (1st Elder), Sir, you know. And he said to me (John), These (the significant multitude) are they which came out of great (significant Tribulation (Saints), and have washed their robes,

It’s my belief the Seven Seals take place between the Resurrection and Tribulation. About a Seven Year Period of Time, beginning with the conclusion of the gog war (Ezek 38, 39) and ending with the conclusion of the Seventh Seal (Rev 8:1-5).

Rev 7:14a And I (John) said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me (John), These (the great multitude) are they which came out of great tribulation (Saints),

Different Groups of Saints

Christians are Resurrected, Denominationalist remain on Earth

Scourge Saints: Rev 5:8-10 Rev 6:9-11

Tribulation Saints before the Image Rev 7:9-17 Dan 9:27

Beheaded Tribulation Saints: Rev 13:7, 12:6, 14-17, Rev 14:12,13 Rev 15:2-4 Rev 20:4

From Resurrection to the 8th Seal are the group of Scourge Saints: Rev 5:8-10 Rev 6:9-11 (do not enter tribulation)

1st Trumpet until the last thirty days of the 6th Trumpet are a group of Tribulation Saints: Rev 7:9,10, 14-17 (not necessarily beheaded)

From the last thirty days of the 6th Trumpet through the Great Tribulation: Rev 13:7 Rev 14:6,7 Rev 14:9-11 Rev 15:2-4 Rev 20:4 (Image Tribulation Saints these saints are beheaded)

6th Trumpet Kingdom Saints are from the last thirty days of the 6th Trumpet through the Great Tribulation: Rev 12:6, 14-17

Rev 7:14 continues

Rev 7:14b (significant multitude) and made them (robes) white in the blood of the Lamb (tittle of Jesus).

Denominationalists left on Earth that are Victorious through the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus Christ are given the nineteen gifts offered by Jesus. Rev chapters 2&3

Beginning of Denominationalism Matt 26:14-16 Mark 14:15, 44 Acts 3:14,15 Luke 22:5,6 Luke 22:47,48 unholy kiss John 12:6-money bag Luke 22:5,6 Rev 1:18 3:20 Isa 28:15-18-SCOURGE {Jer 6:30 Luke 18:33 2Tim 3:7-9 Titus 1:16 Rev 2&3})

Nineteen Gifts offered by Jesus to the Membership within the Seven Divisions forming the General Assembly of the Denominational Church system left on Earth:

1st Division Ephesus Rev 2:7 Eat of Tree of Life, Access to Midst of Paradise of God

2nd Division Smyrna Rev 2:10,11 Crown of Life, Escapes 2nd Death.

3rd Division Pergamos Rev 2:17 Hidden Manna, White Stone, New Name

4th Division Thyatira 2:26-29 Power over Nations, Rod of Iron, Morning Star

5th Division Sardis Rev 3:5,6 White Raiment, Eternal Life, Confession

6th Division Philadelphia Rev 3:12,13 Pillar, Rest, Name of God, City of God, New Name Jesus

7th Division Laodicea Rev 3:21,22 Sit with Jesus on Throne

The Blood of the Lamb

Rev 18:24 And in her (Jerusalem) was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he has judged the great harlot (Jerusalem), which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, you are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, how long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him (son of perdition) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Historically we've traditionally interpreted the Great Multitude as representing all the faithful who have endured persecution and suffering for their faith. The imagery of white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb is particularly major, as it connects to our understanding of martyrdom and redemptive suffering.

What intrigues me is the archetypal nature of this vision. The human mind often processes powerful truths through symbolic imagery, and John's vision employs universal symbols of purification (white robes), authority (thrones), and triumph (palm branches). The psychological impact of such imagery on early Christians facing persecution must have been immensely comforting.

What strikes me most is how this passage speaks to the universal human experience of suffering and the hope of ultimate vindication. Whether one takes a pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, or alternative view, the core message of hope and divine protection resonates across theological boundaries.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this. How do you interpret the psychological significance of these "white robes" in relation to human transformation?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Historically we've traditionally interpreted the Great Multitude as representing all the faithful who have endured persecution and suffering for their faith. The imagery of white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb is particularly major, as it connects to our understanding of martyrdom and redemptive suffering.

What intrigues me is the archetypal nature of this vision. The human mind often processes powerful truths through symbolic imagery, and John's vision employs universal symbols of purification (white robes), authority (thrones), and triumph (palm branches). The psychological impact of such imagery on early Christians facing persecution must have been immensely comforting.

What strikes me most is how this passage speaks to the universal human experience of suffering and the hope of ultimate vindication. Whether one takes a pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, or alternative view, the core message of hope and divine protection resonates across theological boundaries.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this. How do you interpret the psychological significance of these "white robes" in relation to human transformation?

The GM ("great multitude") is the result of the greatest revival in the Trib. It is the job of the 144k (Rev 7:1-8) to facilitate the greatest revival in the Trib. We get a clue to this by there being only the 144k and unbelievers on Earth as of Rev 9:4. Verse 4 is the first mention of the 144k; verse 4 (NIV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

The only folks on Earth as of Rev 9:4 who have the seal of God on their foreheads are the 144k: Rev 7:3-4 (ESV): :saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Now, that doesn't mean the 144k start their revival in Rev 9.

The 144k are on Earth as early as the 2nd and 4th seals, as the incredible carnage from those two seals creates billions of dead unbelievers (Rev 6:8). Before it's too late, many unbelievers will see the light, repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. They then give testimony of Jesus Christ, and they are soon martyred.

All those martyrs end up under the altar in Rev 6:9. In Rev 6:11, they are told to wait a little longer for their fellow servants; verse 11 (ESV): Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Those "fellow servants" are their fellow martyrs from Rev 12:17 and Rev 13:15. Those fellow martyrs are found in Rev 20:4 (strongly implied to be under the altar). All those martyrs under the altar are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They appear next, in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17. They first praise God for their salvation. Rev 7:10 (ESV): and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Rev 7 is about the greatest revival in the Trib, wherein millions of new converts (Rev 7:9) are saved. Those new converts are the GM.