Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That verse simply does not say that. Neither does any other Bible verse.
Unless a scripture can be found that says the Lords people will go to live in heaven, then it is a lie and will never happen.

Your lengthy posts are just opinion and guesswork. You are discredited and shown to be a false teacher.
But; to your credit, you have made some people re-think their beliefs, as they see how ridiculous and arrogant the belief of a rapture to heaven is.

Keras, Rev 6:15-17 simply do not say anything about any believers. Rev 6:4 simply does not say anything about any believers because believers do not enter the Trib.

What a coincidence that Jesus says in Rev 3:10 that, "I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

Jesus meant that "you" (we believers) will be kept from the Trib "that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

Jesus specifically meant that "you" (all believers) will not enter the Trib and that only unbelievers ("those who dwell on the earth") will enter the Trib and be tried by 21 judgments of God's wrath.

1 Th 1:10 "delivers us" (snatches us away) from Earth before the Trib -- before "the wrath to come." All of the pre-Trib rapture verses are fulfilled together, completing every detail about us being raptured directly to Heaven (Rev 4:1).

Where has Elijah lived since 2 Kings 2:11? And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Where will the 2W live after Rev 11:12? Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Where will the GM live after Rev 7:9? After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

 

[keras]

Jesus meant that "you" (we believers) will be kept from the Trib "that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

Your rejection of the Lords ability to protect His own, as we all pass through the tests and trials to come; will count against you.
Your lack of faith is sufficient to cut you out from being 'raptured', if there ever was one.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your rejection of the Lords ability to protect His own, as we all pass through the tests and trials to come; will count against you.
Your lack of faith is sufficient to cut you out from being 'raptured', if there ever was one.

Show me ONE verse that says "we all will pass through tests and trials to come," that is about the 21 judgments of God's wrath in the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your rejection of the Lords ability to protect His own, as we all pass through the tests and trials to come; will count against you.
Your lack of faith is sufficient to cut you out from being 'raptured', if there ever was one.

Keras, you won't find a verse that says what you claim about the 21 judgments of God's wrath in the Trib. That's because what you claim is false. I know it's false because either you're right and Jesus is wrong, or Jesus is right and YOU are wrong. Jesus said in Rev 3:10 that, paraphrased, we will not enter the Trib. So, who's right: you or Jesus?

 

[Douggg]

Nothing you post, or anything in the Bible; supports the rapture to heaven fable.

You really need to think how stupid you are going to look, when disaster comes and you will still be on earth.

keras, you believe that the rapture is to another place on earth, correct ? And does not include the changing of our bodies into eternal life everlasting bodies, correct ?

So, lets say the rapture takes place - and you are not outside, but inside in a building - how then, in your natural body are you going to pass through the walls of that building ?

It is not possible. There has to be a change from the natural body to the eternal life everlasting bodies.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

keras, you believe that the rapture is to another place on earth, correct ? And does not include the changing of our bodies into eternal life everlasting bodies, correct ?

So, lets say the rapture takes place - and you are not outside, but inside in a building - how then, in your natural body are you going to pass through the walls of that building ?

It is not possible. There has to be a change from the natural body to the eternal life everlasting bodies.

I have done it before. That verse has no support for the false rapture theory.

Nothing you post, or anything in the Bible; supports the rapture to heaven fable.

You really need to think how stupid you are going to look, when disaster comes and you will still be on earth.

Keras, 1 Th 4:16-17 cannot occur without our changing into our eternal bodies. 1 Cor 15:52 only matches the wording of 1 Th 4:16-17. Therefore, 1 Cor 15:52 only serves 1 Th 4:16-17.

Rev 4:1 proves that the rapture occurs pre-Trib, and that the rapture goes straight to Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your rejection of the Lords ability to protect His own, as we all pass through the tests and trials to come; will count against you.
Your lack of faith is sufficient to cut you out from being 'raptured', if there ever was one.

I have done it before. That verse has no support for the false rapture theory.

Nothing you post, or anything in the Bible; supports the rapture to heaven fable.

You really need to think how stupid you are going to look, when disaster comes and you will still be on earth.

Mr. Keras, the pre-Trib rapture is shaping up to occur in about two, maybe three years at the most.

Countries that are in wars are coming forward with peace proposals because of President-elect Trump. He is well-known for being very anti-war, and he has a passion for ending existing wars.

It might take up to a year to get all wars to stop. It then might take another year to prove we all truly have peace & security.

This is all about the fulfillment of 1 Th 5:2-3. What is happening now is entirely biblical. All these happenings forecast the probable occurrence of the pre-Trib rapture within two to three years.

 

[Douggg]

Mr. Keras, the pre-Trib rapture is shaping up to occur in about two, maybe three years at the most.

Countries that are in wars are coming forward with peace proposals because of President-elect Trump. He is well-known for being very anti-war, and he has a passion for ending existing wars.

It might take up to a year to get all wars to stop. It then might take another year to prove we all truly have peace & security.

This is all about the fulfillment of 1 Th 5:2-3. What is happening now is entirely biblical. All these happenings forecast the probable occurrence of the pre-Trib rapture within two to three years.

Hi Jeffrey, I hope we can get keras on-board with the rapture to heaven to take place at any time. We get closer everyday.

I don't think Trump's actions will result in the 1Thessalonians5:2-3 peace and safety. I don't think that is going to happen until right after the Gog/Magog event with the Antichrist person arriving in Israel and anointed the king of Israel, initiating a false messianic age and the false sense of peace and safety.

Having said that though, Trump's actions, whatever they may be, might result in Israel living in an enhanced state of comfort pre-Gog/Magog, as indicated in Ezekiel 38: 11.

We will just have to keep an eye on how things progress.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Hi Jeffrey, I hope we can get keras on-board with the rapture to heaven to take place at any time. We get closer everyday.

I don't think Trump's actions will result in the 1Thessalonians5:2-3 peace and safety. I don't think that is going to happen until right after the Gog/Magog event with the Antichrist person arriving in Israel and anointed the king of Israel, initiating a false messianic age and the false sense of peace and safety.

Having said that though, Trump's actions, whatever they may be, might result in Israel living in an enhanced state of comfort pre-Gog/Magog, as indicated in Ezekiel 38: 11.

We will just have to keep an eye on how things progress.

Doug, the peace and safety in 1 Th 5:3 is the state of affairs before the start of the Trib (the Day of the Lord in 1 Th 5:2). It is upon verse 3 that all hell breaks loose at the start of the Trib. Rev 6:1-2 (the first revelation of the AC) will have happened. The 2nd seal is opened and simultaneous wars break out all over the planet. The God-Magog war will be one of those wars.

The degree if calamity from the first four seals alone will kill over 25% of the world's population. There is no biblical period of "peace and safety" or "peace and security" of any extended period, once the Trib starts. There won't be any durable peace again until Armageddon is completed. That's when the AC and the false prophet will be tossed into the lake of fire (Rev 19:20).

The one chance for worldwide peace to occur anytime soon is the "peace and security" that will immediately precede the Trib (1 Th 5:3). Therefore, I do believe that Trump {Mr. No Wars) is the leading player in making that happen.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, the peace and safety in 1 Th 5:3 is the state of affairs before the start of the Trib (the Day of the Lord in 1 Th 5:2). It is upon verse 3 that all hell breaks loose at the start of the Trib. Rev 6:1-2 (the first revelation of the AC) will have happened. The 2nd seal is opened and simultaneous wars break out all over the planet. The God-Magog war will be one of those wars.

If you want to state that the rapture must take place before the Day of the Lord begins - then I can agree.

But saying that the start of the "Trib" is the start of the Day of the Lord is a mistake. I hope I can explain why it is a mistake clearly.

Here goes....

The term "trib" as used in pre-trib rapture means pre-70th week. The trib part of pre-trib is misleading because for most of the first half of the 70th week is not tribulation, but a false messianic age.

Thomas Ice, a well known advocate of the pre-trib rapture makes the clarification that pre-trib actually means pre-70th week at his site.... Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center

From his site... (my highlighting his words in red)

The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC) is committed to the study, proclamation, teaching, and defense of the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-70th week of Daniel) and related end-time prophecy.

So, the pre-70th week rapture view is that the rapture must take place before the 70th week of Daniel 9 takes place.

In Ezekiel 39, we can see that 7 year 70th week is the same 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 following the Gog/Magog event.

And right after the Gog/Magog event, the person who becomes the Antichrist arrives in Israel. And is anointed the king of Israel (that's what makes him the Antichrist). And the false messianic age of peace and safety begins. And lasts about 3 years, until one day, he goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, the 2Thesslanonians2:4 act. That triggers the beginning of the day of the Lord.

compared to the pre-trib rapture view....

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

If you want to state that the rapture must take place before the Day of the Lord begins - then I can agree.

But saying that the start of the "Trib" is the start of the Day of the Lord is a mistake. I hope I can explain why it is a mistake clearly.

Here goes....

The term "trib" as used in pre-trib rapture means pre-70th week. The trib part of pre-trib is misleading because for most of the first half of the 70th week is not tribulation, but a false messianic age.

Thomas Ice, a well known advocate of the pre-trib rapture makes the clarification that pre-trib actually means pre-70th week at his site.... Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center

From his site... (my highlighting his words in red)

The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC) is committed to the study, proclamation, teaching, and defense of the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-70th week of Daniel) and related end-time prophecy.

So, the pre-70th week rapture view is that the rapture must take place before the 70th week of Daniel 9 takes place.

In Ezekiel 39, we can see that 7 year 70th week is the same 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 following the Gog/Magog event.

And right after the Gog/Magog event, the person who becomes the Antichrist arrives in Israel. And is anointed the king of Israel (that's what makes him the Antichrist). And the false messianic age of peace and safety begins. And lasts about 3 years, until one day, he goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, the 2Thesslanonians2:4 act. That triggers the beginning of the day of the Lord.


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compared to the pre-trib rapture view....


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Daniel's 70th week is defined in Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

One week = seven years, give or take some weeks or even months, per Matt 24:22.

In Daniel 9:27 (ESV) we find that "half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering." This is the AC's immediate and brutally enforced departure from Jewish tradition. The brutality is backed up by the wording of Rev 6:2 (ESV): he came out conquering, and to conquer.

In other words, the 1st seal's "conquering and to conquer" are immediate brutality upon the Jewish people. There is clearly rebellion against the AC from the all the wars that break out in the 2nd seal. The early weeks of the Trib (the seven years of God's 21 judgments of wrath) are provably hell on earth from day 1. Rev 6:1-4 brutally kill over 25% of the world's population.

How do millions of souls (new converts in the Trib) end up under the altar in the 5th seal (Rev 6:9)? They are not products of "peace and safety." Those souls are millions of casualties from the 1st, 2nd and 4th seals.

There you have the biblical evidence that "peace and safety" are nowhere to be found in the first half of the Trib. Therefore, 1 Th 5:3 only applies to the days leading up to Rev 6:1-2, the 1st seal. Those days leading up to Rev 6:1-2 are currently unfolding before our eyes with the international push to end all wars. We will then see a period of "peace and safety." In due course, that will trigger Rev 6:1-2, the start of the 7-year Trib.

 

[Douggg]

In other words, the 1st seal's "conquering and to conquer" are immediate brutality upon the Jewish people. There is clearly rebellion against the AC from the all the wars that break out in the 2nd seal. The early weeks of the Trib (the seven years of God's 21 judgments of wrath) are provably hell on earth from day 1. Rev 6:1-4 brutally kill over 25% of the world's population.

The first seal rider on the white horse, given a crown is the Antichrist arriving as the perceived messiah by the Jews, and the crown given him is that of the king of Israel.

The conquering and to conquer will be the Antichrist putting down any residual, post Gog/Magog, attempts by muslims to stop the building of the temple on the temple mount.

How do millions of souls (new converts in the Trib) end up under the altar in the 5th seal (Rev 6:9)? They are not products of "peace and safety." Those souls are millions of casualties from the 1st, 2nd and 4th seals.

The souls under the altar are the great tribulation martyrs, who are become Christians after the rapture/resurrection has taken place. The peace and safety of course is long over at that point.

There you have the biblical evidence that "peace and safety" are nowhere to be found in the first half of the Trib.

Jeffrey, you are misunderstanding the seals and what they mean. And it is not first half of "the Trib", but first half of the 70th week. That 7 year period is not called "the Trib" in the bible.

The 7 seals cover the 70th week. day 1 to day 2520 of the 70th week.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The first seal rider on the white horse, given a crown is the Antichrist arriving as the perceived messiah by the Jews, and the crown given him is that of the king of Israel.

The conquering and to conquer will be the Antichrist putting down any residual, post Gog/Magog, attempts by muslims to stop the building of the temple on the temple mount.


The souls under the altar are the great tribulation martyrs, who are become Christians after the rapture/resurrection has taken place. The peace and safety of course is long over at that point.


Jeffrey, you are misunderstanding the seals and what they mean. And it is not first half of "the Trib", but first half of the 70th week. That 7 year period is not called "the Trib" in the bible.

The 7 seals cover the 70th week. day 1 to day 2520 of the 70th week.


View attachment 356874

Doug, Daniel 9:27 proves there are seven years to the "hour of trial" cited in Rev 3:10. The "hour of trial" is 21 judgments of God's wrath.

The term "Trib" is short for Tribulation, including Great Tribulation. Here's proof: Deuteronomy 4:30 (ESV): When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the Lord your God and obey his voice.

There you have it, in the Bible, that Tribulation is a term for the seven years of God's 21 judgments of wrath. It is abbreviated to "Trib" for convenience.

Day of the Lord is a term that includes the seven years of Tribulation (about 3.5 years of seven seals then seven trumpets) then the Great Tribulation (about 3.5 years of bowl judgments).

Therefore, I am correct in that 1 Th 5:3 refers to the start of the Trib (the 7-year Tribulation period, including Great Tribulation) upon "peace and security" or "peace and safety" in what is believed to be northern Israel (Magog). When peace and security are found in that particular region, that is a sign that the pre-Trib rapture is imminent.

 

[Douggg]

Therefore, I am correct in that 1 Th 5:3 refers to the start of the Trib (the 7-year Tribulation period, including Great Tribulation) upon "peace and security" or "peace and safety" in what is believed to be northern Israel (Magog). When peace and security is found in that particular region, that is a sign that the pre-Trib rapture is imminent.

The great tribulation impacts the entire world. And if not limited in length, no flesh on earth would survive, Matthew 24:22.

No-one will be saying "peace and safety" during that time.

So the saying of peace and safety is before the Great Tribulation begins. Of the seven years, the last 1335 days are the Great Tribulation, because it begins when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup - and ends when Jesus returns.

So during the peace and safety portion of the 7 years - no one is in "tribulation", including the Jews.

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In 2Thessalonians2::4 what triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord ? It is the sit in act by the Antichrist in the temple of God, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Does that start at the beginning of the 7 years ? No. But somewhere in the middle.

So the Day of the Lord beginning, like a thief in the night, takes the world by surprise - and ends the false messianic age, when peace and safety is being said.

The point is that you are calling the entire 7 year 70th week as "tribulation" when it is not all "tribulation".

Calling your rapture timing view as pre-70th week, does not alter your view of when the rapture will take place.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The great tribulation impacts the entire world. And if not limited in length, no flesh on earth would survive, Matthew 24:22.

No-one will be saying "peace and safety" during that time.

So the saying of peace and safety is before the Great Tribulation begins. Of the seven years, the last 1335 days are the Great Tribulation, because it begins when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup - and ends when Jesus returns.

So during the peace and safety portion of the 7 years - no one is in "tribulation", including the Jews.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

In 2Thessalonians2::4 what triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord ? It is the sit in act by the Antichrist in the temple of God, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Does that start at the beginning of the 7 years ? No. But somewhere in the middle.

So the Day of the Lord beginning, like a thief in the night, takes the world by surprise - and ends the false messianic age, when peace is safety is being said.

The point is that you are calling the entire 7 year 70th week as "tribulation" when it is not all "tribulation".

Ezekiel 14:21 names the four most dreaded forms of God's wrath. They are wars (caused by God on large scales), famine, disease and wild animals (that brutally kill humans and livestock).

Please read Rev 6:4 ("sword" is a synonym for "war") and Rev 6:8 wherein you will find all four of the most dreadful punishments by God. Therefore, to say that the early seals, as some people say, do not contain God's wrath, is a statement of ignorance of Rev 6:4 and Rev 6:8. Those two verses are about complete hell on Earth from day 1 of the Trib. Where else in the Trib is 25% of the world's population brutally killed in a matter of months? The early seals are chock-full of God's wrath. Rev 6:4 and Rev 6:8 prove it,

 

[Douggg]

Please read Rev 6:4 ("sword" is a synonym for "war") and Rev 6:8 wherein you will find all four of the most dreadful punishments by God. Therefore, to say that the early seals, as some people say, do not contain God's wrath, is a statement of ignorance of Rev 6:4 and Rev 6:8. Those two verses are about complete hell on Earth from day 1 of the Trib.

You are calling the 70th week - the Trib. Which is incorrect, and not a biblical term for the 70th week.

day 1 of the 70th week begins in seal 1, not seal 2 (Revelation 6:4).

I show the horsemen of the apocalypse on this timeline critical path (the red line) chart.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are calling the 70th week - the Trib. Which is incorrect, and not a biblical term for the 70th week.

day 1 of the 70th week begins in seal 1, not seal 2 (Revelation 6:4).

I show the horsemen of the apocalypse on this timeline critical path (the red line) chart.



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I am well aware that Rev 6:1-2 begin the Trib with seal #1.

Per Daniel 9:27, The Trib (the seven years of God's 21 judgments of wrath) is about seven years long: about 3.5 years for the seven seals and the seven trumpets; and about 3.5 years for the bowl judgments.

In the 2nd seal (Rev 6:4), I was pointing out that wars breaking out all over the world refute your claim of "peace and safety" in the first months of the Trib. There is NO peace and safety once the Trib begins.

The purpose in citing Rev 6:8 refutes all claims that there is peace and safety in the first year and more of the Trib. Is 25% of the world's population being brutally slaughtered not enough for you to believe there is no peace and safety in the first year and more of the Trib?

You are reading false timelines. Here's proof: The first two-thirds of Rev 11 are an interlude, just like all of Rev 7 is an interlude. Rev 11:3 appoints the 2W (Two Witnesses) shortly before the 2nd half. Therefore, the 2W start their evangelical mission just before the 2nd half. Here's more proof: Rev 11:7 says that when the 2W finish their mission, a beast will rise from the bottomless pit and kill them. When does that occur? It occurs in Rev 17:8, about 1260 days after Rev 11:3.

When will you trust me to be telling you the truth that is based 100% on Scripture, and not on some silly timeline?

 

[Douggg]

Per Daniel 9:27, The Trib (the seven years of God's 21 judgments of wrath) is about seven years long: about 3.5 years for the seven seals and the seven trumpets; and about 3.5 years for the bowl judgments.

There are not 7 years of God's judgements of wrath.

The 7 trumpet plagues and the 7 vials of God's wrath are during the 1335 days long great tribulation.

The 7 seals are not 7 judgments. The 7 seals are locks on the book that Jesus opened. The book is about what will take place during the 70th week of Daniel 9.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There are not 7 years of God's judgements of wrath.

The 7 trumpet plagues and the 7 vials of God's wrath are during the 1335 days long great tribulation.

The 7 seals are not 7 judgments. The 7 seals are locks on the book that Jesus opened. The book is about what will take place during the 70th week of Daniel 9.

Rev 11:15 sounds the 7th trumpet. When does that verse occu?

The trumpets are sounded in the first half.

When will you ever thank me for clarifying — with Scripture — the falsehoods in your timelines?