Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, every one of the timeframes do not pertain to the second half.

In Revelation 12:6 is the 1260 days (first half)
then in Revelation 12:7-9, a war in (the second) heaven and Satan and his angels cast down to earth
then in Revelation 12:14, Satan attempts to destroy the woman (Israel), for a time, times, half time (the second half)

I broke down all the time frames in Revelation in a previous post.

first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

in the second half
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

Doug, the days aren't numbered, as you appear to be implying. They are units of time that point forward in time, not backward. You can't logically connect the authorization of the 2W in Rev 11:3, and say their 1,260 days start early in the Trib, which would be necessary by your pointing backward. All those units of time are about future contexts, in the second half. Again, the 2W are authorized in Rev 11:3. When does that occur on the timeline? The answer is just before the midpoint. They start at Matt 24:14.

Rev 12:7-9 is when Satan is kicked out of Heaven and is cast down to Earth. Matt 24:16 aligns. That is just after the midpoint (Matt 24:15).

Doug, the killer verse of the 2W working in the first half is Rev 17:8. That's the beast cited in Rev 11:7. You are asking Rev 17:8 to apply in the first half, when it only occurs deeply into the second half.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Then you should label your chart.

What is the purpose of showing the Antichrist on the chart ? The abomination of desolation is not the AC person, but a statue image of him in the standing position.. Label it the AoD instead.

Matthew 24:15 is about the abomination of desolation in the holy place, and Jesus referenced what is written Daniel.

In Daniel 12;11, the abomination of desolation will be "set up". The abomination of desolation will be a statue image of the beast-king in a standing position, "set up" on the temple mount.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


When the statue image is "set up" on the temple mount, the Jews will begin fleeing to the mountains.




View attachment 356952

There is one tricky part to when the AC is the AC only, and when is he indwelled by Satan or another beast. That is one tricky point about the midpoint verses.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Also, the 1260 days of the two witnesses being in the first half is that after they ascend to heaven leaving this earth, the 7th angel sounds his trumpet.

The 7th angel sounding announces the third woe. The third woe is in Revelation 12:12, of Satan having great wrath knowing that he has but a short time - the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

1260 days of the two witnesses.
3 /12 days later, they ascend to heaven
then the 7 angel sounds.
then the third woe, Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath, woes to the inhabiters of the earth and sea, Revelation 12:12

The 1,260 days for the 2W run concurrently with the 42 months assigned in Rev 11:2. The trampling of Jerusalem begins in Matt 24:16. The 2W start in Matt 24:14. Jesus made it very clear in Rev 11:2-3, that both of those timeframes run concurrently.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, the days aren't numbered, as you appear to be implying.

Jeffery,

11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

a thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1260 days.

They are units of time that point forward in time, not backward.

What are you talking about ? The two witnesses begin testifying at the beginning of the 70th week.

You can't logically connect the authorization of the 2W in Rev 11:3, and say their 1,260 days start early in the Trib, which would be necessary by your pointing backward.

It is 70th week, not "Trib". The two witnesses begin testifying at the beginning of the 70th week, and continue forward for 1260 days. I don't know what you are talking about "pointing backwards"

All those units of time are about future contexts, in the second half. Again, the 2W are authorized in Rev 11:3. When does that occur on the timeline? The answer is just before the midpoint. They start at Matt 24:14.

I have given you biblical proof in several posts that the 1260 day testimony time of the two witnesses is in the first half.

Matthew 24:14 is a long-term, over 2000 years, spreading of the gospel of the kingdom into the nations.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Doug, the killer verse of the 2W working in the first half is Rev 17:8. That's the beast cited in Rev 11:7. You are asking Rev 17:8 to apply in the first half, when it only occurs deeply into the second half.

Revelation 17:8, the person coming back to life as the beast, takes place near the end of the first half. Around 90 days before the end of the first half. There is not enough information to pinpoint it to an exact day.

What we can point is when the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast is placed on the temple mount. It will be on day 1185 of the timeline - 1335 days before Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

There is one tricky part to when the AC is the AC only, and when is he indwelled by Satan or another beast. That is one tricky point about the midpoint verses.

 

[Douggg]

The 1,260 days for the 2W run concurrently with the 42 months assigned in Rev 11:2. The trampling of Jerusalem begins in Matt 24:16. The 2W start in Matt 24:14. Jesus made it very clear in Rev 11:2-3, that both of those timeframes run concurrently.

No, the two timeframes are expressed differently, i.e. 42 months and 1260 days, because they do not run concurrent to each other.

You are trying your best to put the 1260 days into the second half, but I have shown in multiple posts from scripture of why the 1260 days is the first half of the 70th week.

The 42 months of trampling down of Jerusalem is the 42 months during the beast king's rule in Revelation 13:5 which is second half timing.

 

[keras]

the two timeframes are expressed differently, i.e. 42 months and 1260 days, because they do not run concurrent to each other.

You are shown to be wrong by Rev 11:10-13, where Jesus calls them to Him at His Return, resurrecting the 2W and all the GT martyrs; at that time.
Proved by the earthquake then- the one described in Rev 16:17-18; At the 7th Bowl and Armageddon.

The first half of the final 7 years, commences with a peace treaty, Daniel 9:27, and will be a peaceful time. That period is not mentioned in Revelation. Only when the leader of the One World Govt comes in force to Jerusalem, after 3 1/2 years has passed, does all the Prophesied things in Rev and Daniel, all telling us about the second half of the 70th period of 7 years.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Doug, the days aren't numbered, as you appear to be implying. They are units of time that point forward in time, not backward. You can't logically connect the authorization of the 2W in Rev 11:3, and say their 1,260 days start early in the Trib, which would be necessary by your pointing backward. All those units of time are about future contexts, in the second half. Again, the 2W are authorized in Rev 11:3. When does that occur on the timeline? The answer is just before the midpoint. They start at Matt 24:14.

Rev 12:7-9 is when Satan is kicked out of Heaven and is cast down to Earth. Matt 24:16 aligns. That is just after the midpoint (Matt 24:15).

Doug, the killer verse of the 2W working in the first half is Rev 17:8. That's the beast cited in Rev 11:7. You are asking Rev 17:8 to apply in the first half, when it only occurs deeply into the second half.

The 1,260 days for the 2W run concurrently with the 42 months assigned in Rev 11:2. The trampling of Jerusalem begins in Matt 24:16. The 2W start in Matt 24:14. Jesus made it very clear in Rev 11:2-3, that both of those timeframes run concurrently.

Jeffery,

11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

a thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1260 days.


What are you talking about ? The two witnesses begin testifying at the beginning of the 70th week.


It is 70th week, not "Trib". The two witnesses begin testifying at the beginning of the 70th week, and continue forward for 1260 days. I don't know what you are talking about "pointing backwards"


I have given you biblical proof in several posts that the 1260 day testimony time of the two witnesses is in the first half.

Matthew 24:14 is a long-term, over 2000 years, spreading of the gospel of the kingdom into the nations.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



Revelation 17:8, the person coming back to life as the beast, takes place near the end of the first half. Around 90 days before the end of the first half. There is not enough information to pinpoint it to an exact day.

What we can point is when the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast is placed on the temple mount. It will be on day 1185 of the timeline - 1335 days before Jesus returns.



View attachment 356957

Doug, there are seven years to Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:27). Those seven years are the Trib (Tribulation Period = Tribulation and Great Tribulation). Those are the facts. You keep bringing up the 70th week as some separate timeframe. The 70th week and the Trib are the same 7-year timeframe. You call it the 70th week; I call it the Trib. Please don't claim they are different timeframes, because that is not true per Daniel 9:27.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, there are seven years to Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:27). Those seven years are the Trib (Tribulation Period = Tribulation and Great Tribulation). Those are the facts. You keep bringing up the 70th week as some separate timeframe. The 70th week and the Trib are the same 7-year timeframe. You call it the 70th week; I call it the Trib. Please don't claim they are different timeframes, because that is not true per Daniel 9:27.

Jeffery, the term "Trib" is a man-made term created in the past 100 or so years, to reflect the different rapture timing views of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. It is not a biblical term. And is not in Daniel 9:27.

Daniel 9:27 is the 70th week of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24.

You calling the 70th week as "Trib" is biblically incorrect, as for most of the first half the world is not in tribulation, but in the false messianic age of peace and safety.

In Daniel 9:27, the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the beginning of abominations is not until the middle part of the 70th week.

That the daily sacrifice is taking place (before it is stopped) indicates that the world is not in tribulation for most of the first half of the 7oth week.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, the two timeframes are expressed differently, i.e. 42 months and 1260 days, because they do not run concurrent to each other.

You are trying your best to put the 1260 days into the second half, but I have shown in multiple posts from scripture of why the 1260 days is the first half of the 70th week.

The 42 months of trampling down of Jerusalem is the 42 months during the beast king's rule in Revelation 13:5 which is second half timing.

Doug, let's look at Rev 11:2-3 (ESV): 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

A Jewish month is 30 days. 42 x 30 = 1,260 days. The timeframe for the trampling of the holy city matches the 1,260 days assigned to the 2W.

Rev 11:2 says ...they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. Verse 3 then says, ... they will prophesy for 1,260 days ... Both timeframes are described as being in the future, by the word "will." Both start just before the midpoint. The trampling starts at Matt 24:16 and the 2W start at Matt 24:14.

Rev 11:7 (ESV): And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,

1,260 days later, the beast in Rev 17:8 will rise from the bottomless pit and kill the 2W.

 

[Douggg]

You are shown to be wrong by Rev 11:10-13, where Jesus calls them to Him at His Return, resurrecting the 2W and all the GT martyrs; at that time.

keras, at the end of the 70th week, the conditions of the world will not be a state that people of the world will be celebrating, exchanging gifts over the deaths of the two witnesses.

At the end of the 7 years, the condition of the world will be people dying right and left, all of the green grass burnt up, a third of the trees, waters poisoned, the armies of the world preparing to make their last stand, terrified about having to face Jesus and his armies of heaven.

And in that setting - you are going to have the people of the word exchanging presents celebrating the deaths of the two witnesses ?

Also, communications, like TV and internet, will be out, so worldwide, the people still alive will not even know that the two witnesses have been killed.

The first half of the final 7 years, commences with a peace treaty, Daniel 9:27, and will be a peaceful time. That period is not mentioned in Revelation. Only when the leader of the One World Govt comes in force to Jerusalem, after 3 1/2 years has passed, does all the Prophesied things in Rev and Daniel, all telling us about the second half of the 70th period of 7 years.

In Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days.
In Revelation 12:7-9, the war (in the second) heaven and Satan cast down to earth
In Revelation 12:14, the time,times, half time that Satan will have left.

 

[Douggg]

But a transportation thru the atmosphere is possible, Philip did it; Acts 8:39
Matthew 24:31 is plainly stated: Jesus will send His angels to gather the faithful Christians from wherever they are now, around the world: to where He will be; in Jerusalem.

It is you who must explain how and why anyone becomes immortal before the final Judgment and the Book of Life is opened.

Mortal bodies cannot pass through the structure of a building. Many persons will be inside when the rapture/resurrection event takes place.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jeffery, the term "Trib" is a man-made term created in the past 100 or so years, to reflect the different rapture timing views of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. It is not a biblical term. And is not in Daniel 9:27.

Daniel 9:27 is the 70th week of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24.

You calling the 70th week as "Trib" is biblically incorrect, as for most of the first half the world is not in tribulation, but in the false messianic age of peace and safety.

In Daniel 9:27, the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the beginning of abominations is not until the middle part of the 70th week.

That the daily sacrifice is taking place (before it is stopped) indicates that the world is not in tribulation for most of the first half of the 7oth week.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Doug, the first authors about the rapture used the term Great Tribulation for the entire seven years, Daniel's 70th week. That term, Great Tribulation has even been shortened in some Bible versions, as in (Matt 24:29 ESV) to Tribulation. That, has in turn been shortened to Trib, as in pre-Trib rapture. I have thousands of years of biblical history on my side.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, the first authors about the rapture used the term Great Tribulation for the entire seven years, Daniel's 70th week. That term, Great Tribulation has even been shortened in some Bible versions, as in (Matt 24:29 ESV) to Tribulation. That, has in turn been shortened to Trib, as in pre-Trib rapture. I have thousands of years of biblical history on my side.

What authors ?

Pre-trib rapture timing view does not mean pre-Great Tribulation. It means pre-70th week. The view is hinged on the belief that that the rapture will take place before the 70th week begins.

Matthew 24:29 is not shortening the term "great tribulation". "tribulation of those days" in Matthew 24:29 kjv, indicates that most of the great tribulation has passed, but not all of it, when the sixth seal event takes place.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What authors ?

Pre-trib rapture timing view does not mean pre-Great Tribulation. It means pre-70th week. The view is hinged on the belief that that the rapture will take place before the 70th week begins.

Matthew 24:29 is not shortening the term "great tribulation". "tribulation of those days" in Matthew 24:29 kjv, indicates that most of the great tribulation has passed, but not all of it, when the sixth seal event takes place.

Doug, the "tribulation of those days" was the Great Tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, the "tribulation of those days" was the Great Tribulation.

Part of the Great Tribulation.

What begins the Great Tribulation ? The abomination of desolation set up, right ?

When is the abomination of desolation destroyed to end the Great Tribulation ? At the sixth seal ? No.

The abomination of desolation will be destroyed on the day of Jesus's return, as Jesus turns it to ashes, exposing Satan there on the temple mount.

 

[keras]

Mortal bodies cannot pass through the structure of a building. Many persons will be inside when the rapture/resurrection event takes place.

We are given the precedent for translocation of mortal people, by how Philip was suddenly taken away from talking with the Ethiopian eunuch.
It is as Written, God can and will do it for His people when Jesus Returns. Matthew 24:31

It is you who is trying to add to scripture by demanding immortality for them, a thousand years before the time that will happen.

 

[keras]

Doug, the "tribulation of those days" was the Great Tribulation.

Dougggg makes the basic error of placing the Sixth Seal at the Return.
That idea is proved wrong by Revelation 15:1, which proves the wrath of the Lord is over BEFORE Jesus Returns.

 

[Douggg]

We are given the precedent for translocation of mortal people, by how Philip was suddenly taken away from talking with the Ethiopian eunuch.

Philip was not inside a building when he was caught away. So Philip did not pass through a physical structure.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Mortal bodies cannot pass through walls, and roofs.

 

[Douggg]

Dougggg makes the basic error of placing the Sixth Seal at the Return.
That idea is proved wrong by Revelation 15:1, which proves the wrath of the Lord is over BEFORE Jesus Returns.

No, that is not what I maintain. The sixth seal event will be 45 days before Jesus's return.

The wrath of the Lord, feared by the kings of the earth, and the wicked, when they see Jesus, sickle in hand, at the sixth seal event will be executed 45 days later on the day that Jesus returns.