If it is my "theory", can you explain why it is found in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America?
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Of course it only applies to the beginning of the verse. That's the only way you can get your theory to allegedly work.
Per that translation, as to verse 27, it makes it clear that the 'he' who causeth the sacrifice and present to cease, is the same one who by the wing of abominations is making desolate. If that translation doesn't prove a gap, what does it prove? Does it prove the he meant in that verse is meaning Christ? I don't see how since the part about by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, couldn't possibly fit Christ.
70 AD was a spiritually momentous event. It broke the power of the Sadducees who had been persecuting Christians from the first.Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
This belongs with the first 69 weeks.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself
This leads to Christ's death and resurrection, where that then led to His ascension back into heaven, which means He has to return eventually.
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
This belongs with the final week. These things are fulfilled at the end of this age, because at the end of these things it leads to Christ's 2nd coming. The only logical way this is possible, there has to be a gap between the 69th and 70th week. But the way some folks interpret these things, this latter led to the events of 70 AD instead. But what significant thing did the events of 70 AD lead to? Nothing that I can think of. Which has more significance at the end of it? Something that leads to nothing significant? Or something that leads to the 2nd coming?
you make a strong argument that the "Messianic Prince" of verse 26 is juxtaposed against an anti-Messianic anti-Prince in verse 27.Verse 26 Then another 62 ‘weeks’ = 434 years, plus the 49, makes a total of 483 prophetic years until ‘Messiah, the Prince, is cut off’.
‘There shall be nothing for Him’, means that at that time He did not receive the Millennium Kingdom. ‘The people of the ruler to come, will destroy Jerusalem, including the Temple’, refers to the Roman destruction in 69/70AD.
does seem like you could also apply the anti-Christ prophesies to either Titus & Vespasian, or to the brutal Zealot leaders, in 70 AD.The end period; the 70th of the 7 ‘weeks’ = 7 years will be made up of 2 periods of 1260 days each. It will be the closing time of this age, ‘the end shall be with a flood’. Flood is better translated as – overflowing. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
Verse 27 The Anti Christ will make a 7 year treaty with the ‘many’. That is, the holy people of God: every born again Christian, living in their own Land. There will be a faithful remnant who will oppose this agreement, so this treaty is made with many, but not all of His people, Israel. Daniel 11:32, Isaiah 28:15. The Anti Christ will break this after 1260 days, which will commence the Great Tribulation. He sets up his own image in the Temple, then after the final 1260 days, he will meet his end. Daniel 11:45, Revelation 19:20.
Huge problemOne shall come and become 44th President of the United States. - Barack Obama
The President shall be cutoff after January 20, 2017. - Barack Obama's last day as President
The people of the President that shall come will not be wearing MAGA caps. - Barack Obama's people did not wear MAGA caps.
The same President Barack Obama throughout.
In Daniel 9, the same Prince Messiah throughout.
One thing to look at is context,
So what have we learned here then? That context determines whether something is a grammatical antecedent or not. So let's look at the context of the verses in question.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself---are all of these things something Jesus could fulfill? Absolutely, undoubtedly, yes.
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Is this something Jesus' people would do, come and destroy the city and the sanctuary? No it isn't, therefore context has determined that the prince in verse 26 is not the same prince meant in verse 25.
Aren't Christians Jesus' people? Has there been any Christians that have come and destroyed a city and sanctuary in the past?
If your going to continue to ignore the passages i spoke to you about (lev 26, jeremiah 25, and daniel 9: 1 - 19)like i asked, we have nothing further to speak about, because you are not being honest and having an honest discussion.
We can talk about these passages you want but only after you show you can have an honest discussion and respond to the passages i showed which are the context of the daniel 9 prophesy.
Oh boy.You have the hierarchy reversed. Grammar is objective. It is governed by the duly recognized rules of grammar in every language.
Context, by contrast, is subjective. It is subject to potentially differing interpretations. It thus requires a benchmark to assist in arriving at its correct interpretation.
That benchmark is the objective rules of grammar. They are the first to be applied to the text. The resulting context is then analyzed to arrive at the final interpretation.
This process assures the greatest probability of consistent and reliable interpretation. It is particularly applicable to Daniel 9:24-27.
It is if they were His agents and instruments to accomplish His purposes.
The people of the prince refers to the Roman armies which were Messiah's agents and instruments to accomplish the judgment and destruction which He had prophesied. God's use of such instruments, and His characterization of them as "mine" even though pagan, can be found in several OT instances e.g.:
Jeremiah 25
9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.
Jeremiah 43
10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.
God characterizes the pagan Nebuchadnezzar as "my servant" in using him and his armies against Judah and Egypt.
In the same way as Nebuchadnezzar, though a pagan, was God's servant in executing His judgment, so too were the pagan Roman armies Messiah's people in accomplishing His purposes.
In addition, the Jews themselves, as the historical people of Prince Messiah, were equally responsible for the destruction and suffering. Their own actions in defiling and destroying the buildings and temple prior to the Roman invasion are described by Josephus:
The Lamentation of Josephus
War 5.1.4 19-20
The darts that were thrown by the engines [of the seditious factions] came with that force, that they went over all the buildings and the Temple itself, and fell upon the priests and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and barbarians, with their own blood. The dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves.
Oh most wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy internal pollutions! For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou longer survive, after thou hadst been a sepulchre for the bodies of thine own people, and hast made the Holy House itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.
As seen, Josephus recognizes the Jews as agents of their own destruction, and that destruction as Divinely orchestrated.
Contemporary Jewish historians concur:
"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."
The people, both Roman and Jewish, of the prince Messiah who was to come, were Messiah's agents and instruments in accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction against those who had rejected Him.
The time of jacobs troube is said to be so severe there is NON LIKE IT,Jeremiah was writing at the time of the captivity in Babylon.
That was the time of Jacob's trouble.
The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the "Church Age" cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.
This is confirmed by those under the blood of the Lamb in the verse below.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.
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If i may, if you look at the things of the final beast in dan 2 and daniel 7 with all of the other references to them, niether titus or vespian fit the characteristic, so i would say no, it could not be themyou make a strong argument that the "Messianic Prince" of verse 26 is juxtaposed against an anti-Messianic anti-Prince in verse 27.
And that there is a gap, e.g. from 33 AD to 70 AD. What stopped the Daniel clock during the gap ?
EDIT -- somehow, the first 69 weeks apply to the "Messianic clock"... but the last 1 week applies to the "anti-Messianic clock" ? The transition from "rejected Messiah" to widely-followed anti-Messiah (vv. 26-27) somehow includes a gap, e.g. ~40 years from 30 AD to 70 AD ??
does seem like you could also apply the anti-Christ prophesies to either Titus & Vespasian, or to the brutal Zealot leaders, in 70 AD.
Lol, seriously?What information do you want exactly about these passages?
In a related vein, please answer my repeated question about Daniel 9:24, or quote me if you have already replied, please
Lol, seriously?
I asked you three times to show me how those passages did not apply in context to daniel 9,and how they perfectly explain daniel 9 and why daniel is praying, which would explain Gabriels answer to daniels prayer.
I posted my response in the same post. Where i used those passages to explain what i thought dan 9 meant, this just goes to further show you never read what i posted in the first place,
The time of jacobs troube is said to be so severe there is NON LIKE IT,
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Why not the one/s meant here? Couldn't possibly be referring to something Christ did. As to what sacrifice, it's a little more involved, and it's getting late here, so might have to try and explain that part tomorrow----maybe, so no promises then.
The opp mentions a gap and I do not know what that refers to but I disagree with he SDA regarding the 2300 year prophesy; I expect the 2300 years is the interval between the first and second coming of Christ.
You have the hierarchy reversed. Grammar is objective. It is governed by the duly recognized rules of grammar in every language.
Context, by contrast, is subjective. It is subject to potentially differing interpretations. It thus requires a benchmark to assist in arriving at its correct interpretation.
That benchmark is the objective rules of grammar. They are the first to be applied to the text. The resulting context is then analyzed to arrive at the final interpretation.
This process assures the greatest probability of consistent and reliable interpretation. It is particularly applicable to Daniel 9:24-27.
It is if they were His agents and instruments to accomplish His purposes.
The people of the prince refers to the Roman armies which were Messiah's agents and instruments to accomplish the judgment and destruction which He had prophesied. God's use of such instruments, and His characterization of them as "mine" even though pagan, can be found in several OT instances e.g.:
Jeremiah 25
9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.
Jeremiah 43
10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.
God characterizes the pagan Nebuchadnezzar as "my servant" in using him and his armies against Judah and Egypt.
In the same way as Nebuchadnezzar, though a pagan, was God's servant in executing His judgment, so too were the pagan Roman armies Messiah's people in accomplishing His purposes.
It has everything to do with Jesus Christ
Matthew 27:50-51 King James Version (KJV)
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
The veil was between the Holy and Most Holy of the temple, being rent in two the temple blood sacrafice was ceased as the blood of the Lamb of GOD replaced the CEREMONIAL SACRIFICE OF THE TEMPLE which always pointed forward to the SACRIFICE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN.
You should spend some time studying the ceremonial temple here on earth as it is a pattern of the Heavenly temple.
Leviticus 16:21
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Exodus 25:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Hebrews 8:2
A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Your substitution of this with the anti-christ interpertation is not supported by the rest of the Bible as it is all about JESUS CHRIST
Same could be said about your continued refusal to answer, but thats beside the point,Can you please not kick up all the time EG.
One wonders if the act of aggrieved defensiveness is a cover for not having a proper answer. All the huffing and puffing, and 'oh boy-ing'. Come on man, you're a grown man!!
I read your answer but your reply to my question was skimpy to say the least. If you phrase your question clear and sharp, I will endeavour to answer, but I am moving towards cessation here
Ok, but you haven't really answered my earlier questions. Here is an easier one. Can you, please, Explain how you understand Daniel 9, in its entirety. Thanks
1. start with leviticus, which tells the children of isreal what will happen if they do not obey God, focus on the final form of discipline, where God said he would destroy the city and sanctuary and leave them desolate, then look at what babylon did in fulfillment of that discipline, which daniel partook of when he was taken from nim home almost 70 years earlier
Pay particular attention to this part of the passage
lev 26: 34 ‘and the land shall enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it.
2. Look what Jeremiah prophesied, a passage which daniel spoke of in the opening of daniel 9
First you have the warning, repent, and in doing so dwell in the land that God gave you and your fathers FOREVER! Further proof Isreal was given the land as an eternal promise)
Jeremiah 25:5–6 (NKJV): They said, ‘Repent now everyone of his evil way and his evil doings, and dwell in the land that the Lord has given to you and your fathers forever and ever.
Then He told them since they failed to yeild to the prophets he would punish them
Jeremiah 25:8–14 (NKJV): Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘Because you have not heard My words, 9 behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,’ says the Lord, ‘and Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, against its inhabitants, and against these nations all around, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, a hissing, and perpetual desolations. 10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 And this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
12 ‘Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,’ says the Lord; ‘and I will make it a perpetual desolation. 13 So I will bring on that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied concerning all the nations. 14 (For many nations and great kings shall be served by them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the works of their own hands.)’ ”
In other words, as told in leviticus, god will take the people and make them slaves, he will make the land desolate, and this punishment will last for 70 years. This wil include jerusalem and the temple, this was fullfilled in dan 1
Daniel 1:1–7 (NKJV): In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. 2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the articles of the house of God, which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the articles into the treasure house of his god.
3 Then the king instructed Ashpenaz, the master of his eunuchs, to bring some of the children of Israel and some of the king’s descendants and some of the nobles, 4 young men in whom there was no blemish, but good-looking, gifted in all wisdom, possessing knowledge and quick to understand, who had ability to serve in the king’s palace, and whom they might teach the language and literature of the Chaldeans. 5 And the king appointed for them a daily provision of the king’s delicacies and of the wine which he drank, and three years of training for them, so that at the end of that time they might serve before the king. 6 Now from among those of the sons of Judah were Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. 7 To them the chief of the eunuchs gave names: he gave Daniel the name Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abed-Nego.
So you see, Daniel witnessed the desolation of jerusalem and the temple, and the casting out of the people into babylon as promised in Lev, prophesied by Jeremiah,
3. While in captivity, daniel studied Gods word, at about 70 years in, daniel was reading and came across the words of Jeremiah, knowing the 70 years was up, and his PEOPLE were still in sin, Daniel did what moses did and many other before him did and offered a prayer asking God for mercy
1. He said he understood
Daniel 9:1–2 (NKJV): In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the lineage of the Medes, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans—2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
2. He made prayer of supplication. confessing his own sins and the sins of the people
Daniel 9:3–7 (NKJV): Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes. 4 And I prayed to the Lord my God, and made confession,
we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.
3. He admitted, this disaster came ipon us bsed on gods word in the law, and jeremiahs prophecy
Daniel 9:11–15 (NKJV): Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us;
4. He admits, they did not do what they were supposed to do, and turn from thwir sins, and understand the truth, they were still in sin theirfor god has kep this disaster in mind because god is righteous,, when he says he will do something, he does it
Vs 13 continued
yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice.
5. Then daniel asks for mercy, for his people, for his land, for the holy city jerusalem, and the house of God.
Daniel 9:16–19 (NKJV): O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. 17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”
Then gabriel is sent to give him his answer
70 week (490 years) are given for his people (isreal) and holy city (jerusalem) and the sanctuary (temple)
This is the context of daniel 9 and Gabriels prophesy. The church is in. NO way part of any of these thngs, the things refere to the punishment god warned, he fortold would occure, he carried out and daniels plea for Gods mercy concerning Isreal and Jerusalem and the temple. NOTHING ELSE,
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