Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

[BABerean2]

None of this can work though if all of verse 27 is the 70th week. If you,too, thought all of that verse was the 70th week, you, like me, would be concluding Christ can't fit that verse then.

IOW----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---this can't fit with a 7 year period that allegedly involves Christ's death and resurrection. So if these things, too, occur during the 70th week, how does one reconcile that with that of Christ's death and resurrection happening during this same 7 year period?

The 7 year period only applies to the beginning of the verse.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The desolation is found below.

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.



The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.

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[DavidPT]

The 7 year period only applies to the beginning of the verse.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The desolation is found below.

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.



The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.

.

What in the text itself in verse 27 warrants one to place some of those events within the 70th week, and some of those events outside of the 70th week? I see nothing in the text indicating one should interpret it like that. Did anyone before Christ even came the first time, interpret verse 27 like that to where they took some of it to mean during the 70th week and some of to mean after the 70th week? They wouldn't have had a reason to do that, would they, keeping in mind I'm still referring to interpreters before the time of the first coming?

 

[DavidPT]

The 7 year period only applies to the beginning of the verse.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The desolation is found below.

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.



The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.

.

NM

 

[A71]

The Bible is very simple. You just need to let it speak for itself. Throughout the Old Covenant, God makes it very clear what the penalties are for apostasy and gross disobedience. E.G.

Deuteronomy 28:49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.....
.......63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

God makes it quite clear that the culmination of Israel's punishment will be a foreign nation that comes in and destroys Israel, and scatters the survivors throughout the world. This is the flip-side of the Old Covenant.

Then in Daniel, Daniel tells us who the nation is that is the
Instrument to implement God's wrath:

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it:

So Daniel tells us that Rome will implement the curses of the Old Covenant and be the nation that is "swift as an eagle" that brings about Israel's cataclysmic end.

When we then come to Daniel 9 it is therefore quite apparent that the agency who enforces the covenant, "makes strong the covenant", for one week, is Rome.
It's not rocket science.

 

[DavidPT]

The Bible is very simple. You just need to let it speak for itself. Throughout the Old Covenant, God makes it very clear what the penalties are for apostasy and gross disobedience. E.G.

Deuteronomy 28:49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.....
.......63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

God makes it quite clear that the culmination of Israel's punishment will be a foreign nation that comes in and destroys Israel, and scatters the survivors throughout the world. This is the flip-side of the Old Covenant.

Then in Daniel, Daniel tells us who the nation is that is the
Instrument to implement God's wrath:

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it:

So Daniel tells us that Rome will implement the curses of the Old Covenant and be the nation that is "swift as an eagle" that brings about Israel's cataclysmic end.

When we then come to Daniel 9 it is therefore quite apparent that the agency who enforces the covenant, "makes strong the covenant", for one week, is Rome.
It's not rocket science.

Interesting. Don't know what to make of what you said though, yet I still find it interesting.

 

[DavidPT]

The 7 year period only applies to the beginning of the verse.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Of course it only applies to the beginning of the verse. That's the only way you can get your theory to allegedly work. Some call that cherry picking though. Usually when one has to cherry pick in order to get their theories to seemingly work, that's a big red flag that something might be amiss in the interpretation itself. As to verse 27, there is nothing in that verse that does not occur during the 70th week, therefore debunks any interpretation that has Christ fulfilling verse 27. Go to Daniel 11:31 without any bias, and maybe there's the chance that that verse is further expanding on verse 27 in Daniel 9.

 

[klutedavid]

IMO, throughout some of the chapters in Daniel, there are time indicators, and that all of these are pretty much referring to the same periods of time. A few examples.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.


Daniel 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The time of the end in all these passages can only lead to one thing ultimately----the end of the days(Daniel 12:13). There are not multiple times of the end in the book of Daniel, where some have already come and gone, and where some are yet to come. They all refer to the same time of the end.

This last chapter of Daniel is an interesting chapter indeed.

The time of the end in all these passages can only lead to one thing ultimately----the end of the days(Daniel 12:13).

The first question I would ask you.

Is this chapter talking about the nation of Israel or the world?

The second question I would ask.

If this chapter is talking about the end of the world, then what does the following verse mean?

Daniel 12:11
...How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

How can there be even more years of unknown length after the end of the world?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG, until you learn to spell Israel correctly, I refuse to read your posts.

And as for the colorful and lengthy word expositions of LLoJ and also BaB's repeated cut and pastes, they just waste space.

Sorry to seem so curmudgeonly, but these things detract from genuine discussion and are not helpful for our understanding of the Prophesies.

I was going to respond, but really not worth it, forgive me for not being perfect.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25 Christ said they must be ready before the Bridegroom comes.

In Luke 21:24-28 we find that "the times of the Gentiles" comes to fullness at the Second Coming of Christ.

He return "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Based on these passages, there will be no second chances, at His Second Coming.

The time for taking the Gospel to the Jewish people is now.

.

Oh yes, I agree, we need to take the word to all people,

And maybe just maybe, as scripture says, the time of jacobds troube (otherwise known as the tribulation oeriod)causes isreal to repent right before the end, and her cry out to god is one thing which facilitates his return.


Jeremiah 30:1–24 (NKJV): The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 “Thus speaks the Lord God of Israel, saying: ‘Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”
4 Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the Lord:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord,
‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’
12 “For thus says the Lord:
‘Your affliction is incurable,
Your wound is severe.
13 There is no one to plead your cause,
That you may be bound up;
You have no healing medicines.
14 All your lovers have forgotten you;
They do not seek you;
For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy,
With the chastisement of a cruel one,
For the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased.
15 Why do you cry about your affliction?
Your sorrow is incurable.
Because of the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased,
I have done these things to you.
16 ‘Therefore all those who devour you shall be devoured;
And all your adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
Those who plunder you shall become plunder,
And all who prey upon you I will make a prey.
17 For I will restore health to you
And heal you of your wounds,’ says the Lord,
‘Because they called you an outcast saying:
“This is Zion;
No one seeks her.” ’
18 “Thus says the Lord:
‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the Lord.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord—
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

 

[DavidPT]

I was going to respond, but really not worth it, forgive me for not being perfect.

I was going to respond too, meaning to his post but never got around to it. You already indicated in one post that your ipad had some issues. But even if that weren't the case, to not want to engage someone because of misspellings, which could be typos or whatever, seems a bit excessive IMO.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Bible is very simple. You just need to let it speak for itself. Throughout the Old Covenant, God makes it very clear what the penalties are for apostasy and gross disobedience. E.G.

Deuteronomy 28:49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.....
.......63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

God makes it quite clear that the culmination of Israel's punishment will be a foreign nation that comes in and destroys Israel, and scatters the survivors throughout the world. This is the flip-side of the Old Covenant.

Then in Daniel, Daniel tells us who the nation is that is the
Instrument to implement God's wrath:

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it:

So Daniel tells us that Rome will implement the curses of the Old Covenant and be the nation that is "swift as an eagle" that brings about Israel's cataclysmic end.

When we then come to Daniel 9 it is therefore quite apparent that the agency who enforces the covenant, "makes strong the covenant", for one week, is Rome.
It's not rocket science.

If your going to continue to ignore the passages i spoke to you about (lev 26, jeremiah 25, and daniel 9: 1 - 19)like i asked, we have nothing further to speak about, because you are not being honest and having an honest discussion.

We can talk about these passages you want but only after you show you can have an honest discussion and respond to the passages i showed which are the context of the daniel 9 prophesy.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I was going to respond too, meaning to his post but never got around to it. You already indicated in one post that your ipad had some issues. But even if that weren't the case, to not want to engage someone because of misspellings, which could be typos or whatever, seems a bit excessive IMO.

To me it is just an excuse, if you want to have an honest discussion, typos are not going to be an issue of contention, if handwritting or spelling was an issue, paul would have had serious issues, he had to have others write because of his issues, i do not have that luxery. And it is hard to proofread and get everything corrected.

 

[jgr]

At least you proved it via this opinion.

But if all of verse 27 is the 70th week, no way the AC cannot be in that verse then.

The grammatical antecedent of all of the "he's" in verse 27 is "prince" in verse 26.
The grammatical antecedent of "prince" in verse 26 is "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.

Antichrist is conspicuous by his absence.

 

[DavidPT]

The grammatical antecedent of all of the "he's" in verse 27 is "prince" in verse 26.
The grammatical antecedent of "prince" in verse 26 is "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.

Antichrist is conspicuous by his absence.

One shall come and become 44th President of the United States.

The President shall be cutoff after January 20, 2017.

The people of the President that shall come will be wearing MAGA caps.

The grammatical antecedent then demands that the President in the latter sentence has to also be the same President in the former sentences?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

David PT question who caused the sacifices to cease? and what sacrifices is referenced?

 

[DavidPT]

David PT question who caused the sacifices to cease? and what sacrifices is referenced?

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Why not the one/s meant here? Couldn't possibly be referring to something Christ did. As to what sacrifice, it's a little more involved, and it's getting late here, so might have to try and explain that part tomorrow----maybe, so no promises then.

 

[jgr]

One shall come and become 44th President of the United States.

The President shall be cutoff after January 20, 2017.

The people of the President that shall come will be wearing MAGA caps.

The grammatical antecedent then demands that the President in the latter sentence has to also be the same President in the former sentences?

One shall come and become 44th President of the United States. - Barack Obama

The President shall be cutoff after January 20, 2017. - Barack Obama's last day as President

The people of the President that shall come will not be wearing MAGA caps. - Barack Obama's people did not wear MAGA caps.


The same President Barack Obama throughout.

In Daniel 9, the same Prince Messiah throughout.

 

[DavidPT]

One shall come and become 44th President of the United States. - Barack Obama

The President shall be cutoff after January 20, 2017. - Barack Obama's last day as President

The people of the President that shall come will not be wearing MAGA caps. - Barack Obama's people did not wear MAGA caps.


The same President Barack Obama throughout.

In Daniel 9, the same Prince Messiah throughout.

So what have we learned here then? That context determines whether something is a grammatical antecedent or not. So let's look at the context of the verses in question.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself---are all of these things something Jesus could fulfill? Absolutely, undoubtedly, yes.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Is this something Jesus' people would do, come and destroy the city and the sanctuary? No it isn't, therefore context has determined that the prince in verse 26 is not the same prince meant in verse 25.

Aren't Christians Jesus' people? Has there been any Christians that have come and destroyed a city and sanctuary in the past?

 

[jgr]

So what have we learned here then? That context determines whether something is a grammatical antecedent or not. So let's look at the context of the verses in question.

You have the hierarchy reversed. Grammar is objective. It is governed by the duly recognized rules of grammar in every language.

Context, by contrast, is subjective. It is subject to potentially differing interpretations. It thus requires a benchmark to assist in arriving at its correct interpretation.

That benchmark is the objective rules of grammar. They are the first to be applied to the text. The resulting context is then analyzed to arrive at the final interpretation.

This process assures the greatest probability of consistent and reliable interpretation. It is particularly applicable to Daniel 9:24-27.

Is this something Jesus' people would do, come and destroy the city and the sanctuary?

It is if they were His agents and instruments to accomplish His purposes.

The people of the prince refers to the Roman armies which were Messiah's agents and instruments to accomplish the judgment and destruction which He had prophesied. God's use of such instruments, and His characterization of them as "mine" even though pagan, can be found in several OT instances e.g.:

Jeremiah 25
9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

Jeremiah 43
10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.

God characterizes the pagan Nebuchadnezzar as "my servant" in using him and his armies against Judah and Egypt.

In the same way as Nebuchadnezzar, though a pagan, was God's servant in executing His judgment, so too were the pagan Roman armies Messiah's people in accomplishing His purposes.

In addition, the Jews themselves, as the historical people of Prince Messiah, were equally responsible for the destruction and suffering. Their own actions in defiling and destroying the buildings and temple prior to the Roman invasion are described by Josephus:

The Lamentation of Josephus
War 5.1.4 19-20

The darts that were thrown by the engines [of the seditious factions] came with that force, that they went over all the buildings and the Temple itself, and fell upon the priests and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and barbarians, with their own blood. The dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves.
Oh most wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy internal pollutions! For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou longer survive, after thou hadst been a sepulchre for the bodies of thine own people, and hast made the Holy House itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.

As seen, Josephus recognizes the Jews as agents of their own destruction, and that destruction as Divinely orchestrated.

Contemporary Jewish historians concur:
"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."


The people, both Roman and Jewish, of the prince Messiah who was to come, were Messiah's agents and instruments in accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction against those who had rejected Him.

 

[BABerean2]

And maybe just maybe, as scripture says, the time of jacobds troube (otherwise known as the tribulation oeriod)causes isreal to repent right before the end, and her cry out to god is one thing which facilitates his return.

Jeremiah was writing at the time of the captivity in Babylon.
That was the time of Jacob's trouble.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the "Church Age" cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

This is confirmed by those under the blood of the Lamb in the verse below.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

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