Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

trophy33 · Oct 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
I don't think it is accurate that the entire "the rest of off [my] argumentation is built on this disputed part of the verse." (my emphasis)

Can be, I do not bother to read long texts if even the beginning is something I do not agree with. Thats why I recommend you to post just one thought per post, its much more effective for all sides of a conversation.

trophy33 · Oct 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
If you care, I think you'll bear with reading carefully what is written.
I do YOU the same service.

Posting just one thought per post is the service you can do for others. Do not force readers to read your preachings. Also, be careful with colors and similar distractions.

Its just a recommendation, of course, about the ethic of conversation. You can continue creating long monologues with dozen of questions, points and thought chains. However, be willing to accept that only the first one/ones will be read/addressed.

oikonomia said:
Your response?

My response is still the same. Jesus came from heaven, went again to heaven and prepared places for us there.

trophy33 · Oct 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
For argument's sake let's assume "the Son of Man which is in heaven" does not belong in the autograph original text of John 3:13.

Its not just for argument's sake, its already the accepted position in biblical sciences. Some copyist probably added "and who is in heaven" as a commentary to the text (because Jesus was already back in heaven) and some other copyist thought its a part of the original text.

oikonomia said:
So what would that do for you to prove God wants man's eternal destiny to live up there in Heaven ?
How would the elimination of those five words establish your case ?

Because the places prepared for us are there, thats the text. I do not know "what would that do for me to prove it", its just what the text says. He did not say "and I will come back to live with you here", He said "and I will take you there with me" (not a quotation).

oikonomia said:
And why didin't Paul say "our citizenship WILL BE in the heavens" if we physically are not there yet?

Because you can be a citizen of a country/kingdom even if you are still away and waiting for going there. Which is the context of Paul's words - they were waiting for getting there.

oikonomia · Oct 19, 2023

Clare73 said:
I am not saying you teach riddles.
I am saying God speaks prophecy in riddles.
Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Okay.

Clare73 said:
However, in NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), there is only one rapture at the end of time, at the second coming (1 Th 4:16-17), compared to the multiple raptures derived from incorrect interpretation of prophetic riddles.

Again, very sorry for the misunderstanding.

Okay.
Because this thread intended to be about the misunderstanding of the "going to heaven" error which
is prevalent instead of the nature of the church, I do not want to get too sidetracked into eschatology.

It seems I easily invite excursions into prophecy.
I would say what is shown in symbolism about raptures I feel comfortable can be
shown in plain teaching as well most of the time.

So back to the nature of the church verses "going to heaven".
A few questions for you:

1.) Do you think man can solve his problems by going to another planet, like, let's say Mars?
If so, why?
If not so, why not?

2.) Do you think man can solve his problems being taken to another place, like, let's say Heaven?
If so, why?
If not, why not?

oikonomia · Oct 19, 2023

myst33 said:
Do not force readers to read your preachings.

Is there something wrong with preaching ?

myst33 said:
My response is still the same. Jesus came from heaven, went again to heaven and prepared places for us there.

That is not a good interpretation of John 14.
It is superfiscial somewhat like the old hymn I heard years ago - "I've got a mansion just over the hilltop."

But you run with that.
If and ever you get hungry for the more solid food, maybe we can talk about it more.

It is milk you taste in the Gospel of John.
It is the meat there that you have little taste for at this time.

oikonomia · Oct 19, 2023

myst33 said:
Its not just for argument's sake, its already the accepted position in biblical sciences. Some copyist probably added "and who is in heaven" as a commentary to the text (because Jesus was already back in heaven) and some other copyist thought its a part of the original text.

The textural criticism I will explore for myself to see if I should take scissors to that verse in my NT.
And excuse me if some responses to you are out of sequence.

myst33 said:
Because the places prepared for us are there, thats the text. I do not know "what would that do for me to prove it", its just what the text says. He did not say "and I will come back to live with you here", He said "and I will take you there with me" (not a quotation).

Let's say I have a problem (as a born again Christian) with alcoholism and hitting my wife.

Which requires more labor, skill and effort from the Lord Jesus?
1.) Preparing my mansion in heaven?
2.) Transforming my personality to become more Christ like?

myst33 said:
Because you can be a citizen of a country/kingdom even if you are still away and waiting for going there. Which is the context of Paul's words - they were waiting for getting there.

Do you have a verse proving that "they were waiting for getting there"?

What it actually says is that we eagerly await a Savior from there.
What it actually says is that we expect Him because He will transfigure our bodies to be conformed to be like His glorified body.

For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself. (Phil. 3:20,21)

oikonomia · Oct 19, 2023

In the book of Phillipians we do not see Paul's longing is more about being found in Christ.
Is it more that he longs to be found in Heaven?

To be fair in chapter one he does say because of his intense discomfort from persecution
that he would prefer to die and be with Christ. But his last thought on that is that he would remain
for the benefit of further serving the believers.

Here is his REAL longing. It is not to "go to heaven" but to be found in Christ.
(Enjoy reading the passage for nourishment also, please)

But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ.

But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ

And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith,

To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead. (Phil.3:7-11)

Where in there is indication that he longs to "go to heaven"?

oikonomia · Oct 19, 2023

But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ.

Paul compares all of his nice peddigree background to Jesus Christ.
In comparison to his Christ, he counts all of his past attainments as dung, refuse, dog-food.

But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ

What is excellent to Paul is not Heaven but Christ. He is willing to suffer the loss of all else
not for going to Heaven to be happy but to GAIN Christ. He wants MORE of Christ.

And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith,

He says he wants to be found in Christ with the righteousness of God based on faith.
He does not say if only he could be found in Heaven.

To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

He want to live in the power of Christ's resurrection overoming any and all opposition.

If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead.

Even here it is an outstanding, a superlative resurrection from the dead he wants to attain.
Even here not a word is said about him only wanting to live in Heaven.

keras · Oct 19, 2023

‘Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory just cannot see or understand that belief.
It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, etc.

People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves - that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our purpose and our destiny! But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth. They listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.

This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not. For instance, John 14:1-3 which is a prophecy about the new heavens and earth that comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible. The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere, except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

oikonomia · Oct 19, 2023

keras said:
So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible. The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere, except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

You may be harder than I am Keras.
I mean the part about "the Lord has locked them into their delusion".

I'll have to think about that one.

trophy33 · Oct 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
Do you have a verse proving that "they were waiting for getting there"?

Sure. For example:

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Cor 5:1

or:
God... has given us ...an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you
1Pt 1:4

Waiting here does not mean being passive, it means that the departure to heaven was still in their future. However, they were already the citizens of heaven, as already said.

trophy33 · Oct 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
Is there something wrong with preaching ?

Yes, its too long and unnecessary. If your first presuppositions are wrong (or at least not accepted by others), creating a monologue built upon them is a useless effort.

trophy33 · Oct 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
Which requires more labor, skill and effort from the Lord Jesus?
1.) Preparing my mansion in heaven?
2.) Transforming my personality to become more Christ like?

Its not "either-or". And "more labor, skill or effort" does not apply to God, he is not limited by time, energy or skills.

oikonomia · Oct 19, 2023

myst33 said:
Yes, its too long and unnecessary. If your first presuppositions are wrong (or at least not accepted by others), creating a monologue built upon them is a useless effort.

Good morning myst33.
Well, I try sometimes to be all the things to all people that I may save some.

Now, could you tell me the "wrong presupposition" that my preaching was built upon please, succintly.
Use as many words as you need to make it crystal clear to me. I will read it all if it is in the right spirit.

oikonomia · Oct 19, 2023

myst33 said:
Its not "either-or". And "more labor, skill or effort" does not apply to God, he is not limited by time, energy or skills.

Then let me put it to you this way.

In the Bible God simply creates everything by saying "Let there be."
But to bring fallen Adam and his race, plus Israel with all her historical problems, and the church with all her historical problems,
to a point where there is a new universe in which righteousness dwells -

Why didn't God simply say "Let there be New Jerusalem" ?
Why so many thousands of years to fulfill His purpose when He can simply say "Let there be" ?

oikonomia · Oct 19, 2023

NBB said:
Doesn't the bible says God will descend form heaven, with the city too and all, and he will live with us in a heavenly earth? forgive me if i'm mistaken..

What I would say to you I would also like Kares to read.

Form many years I also notice the Bible concludes it seems with God causing
heaven and earth to come together and unite in Revelation 21,21.

Then it gradually downed upon me then flashed upon me -
What the conclusion of the Bible is really showing is the uniting of God and humanity.

I say again, it dawned upon me that what the Bible really shows is God becomes "man-ized" and man become "God-ized" in
a mingling of the divine with the human.

Your thoughts?

oikonomia · Oct 19, 2023

keras said:
Heaven is God’s home. Earth is our home. The Lord Jesus, as the Son of God and the Son of man will eventually make Heaven and Earth as one.

Ephesians 1:10…everything in heaven and earth will be brought together under one Head; Jesus Christ.
Just as the separation between heaven and earth will be forever demolished through Jesus, so too will the separation between God and mankind be removed.

Revelation 21:3 Now: the dwelling of God is with men and He will live with them.\
Zechariah 9:10 The Lord will banish all the things of war, He will proclaim peace to the nations and His rule will extend to the ends of the earth.

God’s plan is to make all things as one, to remove the separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds. This is the ultimate plan of God and the finale of secular history. When God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, it was then a part of heaven, but when they sinned, angels with flaming swords kept mankind out and we await its re-establishment on earth. Revelation 21 to 22

I would like to say to you also -
For some years I saw in Revelation 21,22 that God seems to unite heaven to the earth and earth to the heaven.

Then the day came when I realized what the Scripture is really showing is that God causes the mingling of Himself
with man in one living entity.

God became man in order to make man God in life, nature, expression, function, but not in His Godhead.

The Triune God's eternal purpose is to dispense Himself into His redeemed people for a mutual indwelling of
the uncreated and eternal life with the created redeemed creature.

Your thoughts now?

ViaCrucis · Oct 19, 2023

The Bible doesn't say that.

Rather, "go to heaven" is common shorthand for describing the intermediate state of being present with the Lord between death and resurrection, which Scripture only briefly talks about.

Between bodily death and bodily resurrection we are, in some way, present with the Lord. We call that "going to heaven" since we read in Scripture that our Lord at His ascension was taken up into the heavens and seated at the right hand of the Father. Now we shouldn't be thinking that there is some place called "Heaven" where God has a big giant chair that He sits on. But what matters here is that there is a kind of experience of God's glorious presence which only the angels and reposed saints in Christ know. Such things, we should say like the Psalmist, are "too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to understand".

Scripture doesn't talk about it a lot, it barely touches upon the intermediate state. But Scripture is clear enough, even in its brevity, that while the body sleeps, there is a conscious experience of God's presence.

Two passages that mention this intermediate state are 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 and Revelation 6:9-11.

For this reason we can remember our Lord's words, that God is not God of the dead, but of the living (Matthew 22:32) and that He is "the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die." (John 11:25-26).

Our hope of future resurrection is certain, for Christ our Lord has Himself been raised from the dead. But even right now, Christ has overcome death so that in Him, even in bodily death it is only a slumber. For the dead shall be raised, and those who are Christ's are ever-alive with and in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

Clare73 · Oct 19, 2023

Berserk said:
And "the new earth is not a restoration or remodeling of the old earth; it is an entirely new world without a sea:
"... the first earth had passed away and the sea was no more (Revelation 21:1)."
Most of our current planet is water! It seems doubtful that this "new earth" will be a new planet orbiting around our very old sun. More likely, it will be an earthlike world in a spiritual plane and in that sense a heaven, perhaps even a newly designed portion of Paradise in the third Heaven:
"In my Father's house are many dwelling places... I go to prepare a place for you (John 14:2-3)."

The new earth in the kingdom of heaven is a spiritual realm that we enter at death, but it is already here in a spiritual dimension that we cannot see with our physical eyes:

The born again are with Jesus at death.
The new earth as presented by Peter is not until the end of time.

Berserk said:
"The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed; nor will they say, "Look, here it is!" or "There it is!" For the kingdom of God is [already] in your midst (Luke 17:20-21)."

The kingdom of God is here now (Mt 12:28, Lk 11:20), within us (Lk 17:21).

Berserk said:
Put differently, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem or kingdom of God is an already present spiritual realm that we have already entered:

It has entered us (Lk 17:21).

Berserk said:
"You have [already] come to... the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem and to innumerable angels in festal gathering and to the assembly of the firstborn WHO ARE ENROLLED IN HEAVEN... (Hebrews 12:22-23)"

Which is referring to the church of both time and eternity (Heb 12:22-23).

Berserk said:
When we are enrolled in a school, we attend that school; and when we are "enrolled in Heaven," we attend and enter Heaven.

Yes, the names of those in "the assembly and a church of the firstborn" (Heb 12:23) are written in heaven.

Clare73 · Oct 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
Okay.
Okay.
Because this thread intended to be about the misunderstanding of the "going to heaven" error which
is prevalent instead of the nature of the church, I do not want to get too sidetracked into eschatology.
It seems I easily invite excursions into prophecy.
I would say what is shown in symbolism about raptures I feel comfortable can be
shown in plain teaching as well most of the time.
So back to the nature of the church verses "going to heaven".

A few questions for you:
1.) Do you think man can solve his problems by going to another planet, like, let's say Mars? If so, why? If not so, why not?
2.) Do you think man can solve his problems being taken to another place, like, let's say Heaven? If so, why? If not, why not?

The problem of sin remains with man this side of the grave.

In heaven (assumed as the location of Jesus), which first requires one's death, there is no sin, we are with Jesus in glory and, therefore, there are "problems" no longer.

Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

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