Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

[Reasonably Sane]

Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.

I actually made the comment in a small bible belt church (into a hot mic) after a particularly nasty "turn or burn" hellfire sermon, "Folks, eternity is not about heaven or hell. It's not about geography. It's about being alive or dead.

It's about condition." Boy did I get a lot of flack. Apparently that particular church was not familiar with John 3:16.

 

[CoreyD]

CoreyD, you will find my responses somewhat leaning towards my burden to emphasize about God moving into
us. My comments are not to be taken as disagreement. I comment gravitating a little towards a certain concern I emphasize.

For example, I would say Phlippians 3:20, especially connected to previous verse 19, shows our citizenship has its source not in
this world but where Christ sits in heaven.

Whose end is destruction, whose god is their stomach, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. (v.19)
For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, (v.20)

The contrast highlights where the mind is set. The worldly people who set their minds on earthly things
are verses the believers whose commonwealth exists in the heavens.

I would emphasize that some may read this as our citizenship or commonwealth WILL BE in heaven.
So we are going to heaven where our citizenship will be. I would rather emphasize that presently
our minds should not be on earthly and fleshly things as those in verse 19 but set on the things above where
Christ is now. A great sister passage to verse 20 is Colossians 3:1,2.

If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth.
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.(Col. 3:1,2)

The cross is needed to secure our experience that we have died to the world and our minds are on
Christ who is our life. And He is in the heaven. I would emphasize that this Philippians 3:20 and Col. 3:1,2
are more about the Triune God coming to us to be our life inwardly, thoroughly, and completely than
it is about going up to heaven.

From heaven we eagerly await the Savior who indwells us as our life.

For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory,
according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself. (Phil. 3:20,21)

When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:4)

The Christ in heaven where our citizenship is also lives in us. He is working from the inside of our being
OUTWARD through our soul and eventially into our body. The spirit is regenerated. The soul is transformed.
And the body is transfigured. Christ appears from the heavens and we are to appear with Him in glory.

My emphasis would therefore be that these passages are more about the Triune God moving into man.
Others may read them and see them more about God moving us up to heaven.
But I think what they show is God moving into man as divine life for His glorification
in us.


I wrote a long post or two on John 14. I would like to come back to it.

This passage is about rapture. And it is about being with the Lord after rapture.
However, the phrase we who are living, who are left remaining in verse 15 and again
Then we who are living, who are left remaining, in verse 16 I believe may indicate the following:

The rapture here in 1 Thess, 4:16,17 is not the first rapture before the tribulation.
It is the rapture of "those who are living, who are LEFT . . . remaning".
It would have been adaquate for Paul to have written "those who are living" period.
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he curiously adds something - "who are left remaining."

This could indicate that some were living and were taken previously because they were READY.
And this could mean that the rest had to wait and be raptured latter - "those who are living, who are LEFT . . . remaning".

God is dispensing His life into man. And when this dispensing causes the readiness for rapture, rapture occurs. (See Mark 4:26-28)

And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth,
And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens — how, he does not know.
The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear.
But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come.

Revelation 14 shows the FIRSTFRUITS (a minority) in heaven. Then the major events of the great tribulation are shown.
Then the HARVEST is shown. The HARVEST (the majority) rapture would therefore be the rapture at the END of the great
tribulation of we who are living, who are left remaining.

The rapture of those watching, vigilant, ready before the GT would be the FIRSTFRUITS. (Rev. 14:1-5)
The majority who were caught off guard would then pass through the great tribulation
They would be ripened under the heat of that troubled time and be rapture at its end as the HARVEST. (Rev. 14:14-16; 1 Thess. 4:16,17)
Again the rapture at the end of the great tribulation would be the rapture of "those who are living, who are left remaning".

They are not just living at that time. They are living and left remaining. The deceased in graves who were not taken pre-tribulation
also join them.

This too is about God dispensing His life and nature into His "crop" for growth, development, and maturity.
I would emphasize this more than "going to heaven."

Now according to the typology in Leviticus the firstfruits were taken into the temple.
But the harvest was taken into another holding area. The places to where the ripened crops were taken differed.
In Revelation 14 the Firstfruits are seen in heaven.
But the Harvest is taken to the air.

will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord.

These are to be words of comfort (v.18). Therefore comfort one another with these words.

However . . . as the firstfruits were taken to the temple and the harvest was taken to another holding area,
so the early rapture is to the third heaven but the latter rapture is to the air where Christ has now
come to hover over and near the earth on a cloud before His descent. (See Leviticus 23:10-11; Exodus 23:19)

This is all the time I can give to this at the moment.
Please, please enjoy reading the verses, even if you see things differently.
That is a win / win situation.

I just gave what the Bible says. The scriptures don't agree with the OP.
If you had asked, what do you believe?, then that would be different, since we could then give long commentary, and that would be fine, bit you wanted to know where the Bible says persons will go to heaven forever.

• 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. And indeed, in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling which is from heaven,
• Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

I don't recall you saying anything on 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2. Is there a reason you didn't?

An understanding of God's purpose is essential.
God's purpose is for a universal family in heaven and on earth.
The Kingdom of God in the hands of Christ would make that possible, since it was instituted to restore paradise on earth, for one thing.
Thus, a select few were given the privilege to be heirs with Christ in that kingdom. Luke 12:32; Luke 22:28-30; Romans 8:17

The kingdom rules from heaven.

Where is the throne of God?
Where is Mount Zion - heavenly Jerusalem?

Hebrews 12:22-24

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [d]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

See Revelation 14:1-5; Psalm 2:6; Revelation 3:21; Matthew 19:28
That's where the Saints are. Heavenly Jerusalem. Heavenly Mount Zion - God's holy mountain.
Remember, Paul referred to the shadow of the realities. Hebrews 8:5

They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

Hebrews 8:1

Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,

So, if the high priest enter the Most Holy in heaven, where is the courtyard? Is it not the earth?

Think of this too.
What bodies do Jesus and the heirs of the kingdom receive? Is it not immortal bodies - heavenly bodies, to live in heaven?
1 Corinthians 15:40

There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.

Because people do not understand the secret of the kingdom, they do not understand this picture:

Things have really changed though. Have you noticed how things went from "Everyone good goes to heaven." to "Everyone good will live on earth."?
That's really interesting.
One extreme to the other. It's like being totally lost to God's purpose, or "plan".

 

[CoreyD]

I actually made the comment in a small bible belt church (into a hot mic) after a particularly nasty "turn or burn" hellfire sermon, "Folks, eternity is not about heaven or hell. It's not about geography. It's about being alive or dead.

It's about condition." Boy did I get a lot of flack. Apparently that particular church was not familiar with John 3:16.

What are you trying to do. Out the flames of hell? You weren't expecting to face the wrath of demons?

 

[CoreyD]

I believe the new testament church came into existence when Jesus in resurrection breathed into
the disciples the Holy Spirit.

When therefore it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and while the doors were shut where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace be to you.

And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced at seeing the Lord.
Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.

And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20:19-22)

Okay, so the Church started from the apostles. The body of Christ, then, is from the chosen 12, onward.
This means that prior to that, no person is part of the church - body of Christ - the stones on which the church is built. Jesus being the cornerstone.
Hence, New Jerusalem - the Bride of Christ, does not include the patriarchs, including kings, prophets, priests, who lived prior to Jesus pouring out holy spirit on his followers.
Do you agree?

 

[oikonomia]

Okay, so the Church started from the apostles. The body of Christ, then, is from the chosen 12, onward.
This means that prior to that, no person is part of the church - body of Christ - the stones on which the church is built. Jesus being the cornerstone.
Hence, New Jerusalem - the Bride of Christ, does not include the patriarchs, including kings, prophets, priests, who lived prior to Jesus pouring out holy spirit on his followers.
Do you agree?

I could not agree that in the millennium and in eternity only church age believers constitute New Jerusalem.

All the saved are constituents of New Jerusalem from all ages.
In the sign of the New Jerusalem the twelve foundations have the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev. 21:14)
And at the twelve gates are inscribed the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, (Rev. 21:12)
So the old testamnt believers are signified as well as the new testament believers.

Abraham the OT patriarch sought for a city with foundations from God. That city which he will find is New Jerusalem.
For he [Abraham] eagerly waited for the city which has the foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God. (Heb. 11:10)

If Abraham the father of faith (See Rom. 4:16) will not be disappointed in God's fulfillment of His promises, we should
expect that the other OT believers, and believing patriarchs, kings, prophets and priests will also be a part of that city.

The Old Testament believers in the sacrifices had their sins passed over in divine forebearance until Christ's
eternal redemption erased them all restrospectively.

Christ Jesus . . . Whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood, for the demonstrating of His righteousness, in that in His forbearance God passed over the sins that had previously occurred, (See Romans 3:24,25)

There are other reasons why it is right to include ALL of the OT believers in the final habitation of God.
These few are enough for one post.

 

[sparow]

I made no error to explain. Is this supposed to make some kind of sense? Your unsupported assumptions/presuppositions are not convincing. As I said the word "rapture" is the anglicization of the Latin word ""rapiemur" which simply means "caught up". See 1 Thess 4:17. quoted above.

The Anglicization of Rapiemur only in volved a potion of the Latin usage. In English rapture is to do with emotion, extreme joy; as jargon of false religion it means other things.

 

[Der Alte]

The Anglicization of Rapiemur only in volved a potion of the Latin usage. In English rapture is to do with emotion, extreme joy; as jargon of false religion it means other things.

Did you consult a dictionary to obtain that "definition?"

 

[oikonomia]

I just gave what the Bible says.

What else does the bible say? We learn what is written. And we learn "Again, it is written . . . ".

It is written that the city of New Jerusalem is our eternal destin. It is called the temple of My God.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (Rev. 3:12)

And it is written that John saw no temple in the city because the temple was God the Almighty and the Lamb!

And I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Rev. 21:22)

If the entire city is a temple, and that temple if God the Almighty and the Lamb, that means our
destiny is to live in the Triune God and He in us making God and man one living temple.

God is therefore building New Jerusalem by building Himself into His people and they into Him.
While some are impressed with "going to heaven" what about the organic mingling of God and man for His temple/city?

In Revelation 3:12 to be made a pillar in His temple is a matter a life union between God and us.
To "go no more out" is a matter of permenancy of uninterrupted union with the Triune God.
We touch Him here and there. But we drift out as easily. The pillar is solidly built in to be a permenant support of the temple.

Where is the excitment of us going no more out of God the Almighty and the Lamb by the power of His Spirit?
Why not more songs about God bulding us into Himself to be His temple? Why should all the songs be about heaven?

It is arguable that man stays in heaven. We see His army coming FROM there to accompany Him to Armageddon.
But the Lord says the one made a pillar in His temple "shall by no means go our anymore."

He will write upon the one organically built into His living temple the name of the city of His God.
and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem,
That must mean ownership. He belongs to and is identified as the city New Jerusalem.

He will write upon him also His new name.
I will write upon him . . . My new name. (Rev. 3:12)
This again must mean His ownership. Like you might write your name upon your bible to indicate you are the owner.
And this is the new name of the Lord Jesus. This must be His name as corporate entity - a city of the mingling of Christ and His redeemed.

Shouldn't there be more gospel songs about becomming the city of God, His living temple?
And so many songs still about going to heaven?
The Triune God wants to build man into Himself and He into man.

The scriptures don't agree with the OP.
If you had asked, what do you believe?, then that would be different, since we could then give long commentary, and that would be fine, bit you wanted to know where the Bible says persons will go to heaven forever.

The OP asks a question. You have done a decent job telling us why you believe the Scripture shows
believers forever in heaven.
But do you want to be in heaven forever and not be conformed to the image of Christ?
There is a story about a vulture who asked a cat if he would ride with him into the sky.
The cat said he didn't want to be in the sky because there were no mice up there.

What we Chrisians really should be conscerned about is transformation and conformation into the "man from heaven" Jesus Christ.

When He conforms all His called to the image of Christ the Firstborn among many brothers, He will obain the full Bride / City
New Jerusalem.

• 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. And indeed, in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling which is from heaven,
• Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Neither one of these passages, strictly speaking, are about GOING to heaven.
Second Corinthisn 5:1,2 is about receiving a transfigured body whose source is not of this earth.
This is the being "swallowed up by [divine] life" the apostle mentions. That it the mortal being swallowed up in God's life.
Strictly speaking it is about receiving something rather than going somewhere.

Philippians 3:20 says we eagerly await the Savior FROM heaven. Our citizenship is there. But you seem to be
reading into it that we eagely await to GO there. Read it again. We eagerly await the One who is coming FROM there.

I don't recall you saying anything on 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2. Is there a reason you didn't?

I just did say something about it.
It is more about being clothed up than it is about GOING somewhere.
Our dwelling place FROM heaven and the New Jerusalem coming down FROM heaven
seem to agree very well.

For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God,
a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven,

I think you are reading into the passage "going to heaven" when the passage says
clothed upon with our dwelling FROM heaven.

An understanding of God's purpose is essential.

I agree. We received God's life imparted into us that we may eventually be swallowed up in that life.
We received the life of God that we may be mingled with God.
We received the Spirit of God that we may be built up together in the Triune God.

Please notice that His purpose is that the entire city He is building is the Holy of Holies.
The measurements of the city New Jerusalem are of a perfect cube as was the Holy of Holies both in the
tabernacle and in the temple.

And the city lies square, and its length is as great as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed to a length of twelve thousand stadia; the length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. (Rev. 21:16)

The footnote in the Recovery Version says of verse 16-
"Square" here signifies that New Jerusalem is perfect and complete in every way,
absolutely straigt, and not in the least obligue.

The dimensions of the Holy of Holies, both in the tabernacle and the temple, are equal in length, breadth and height (Exo. 26:2-8; 1 Kings 6:20). Hence, that "the length and the breadth and the height" of New Jerusalem are "equal" signifies that the entire New Jerusalem will be the Holy of Holies.

Have you ever heard this before? Have you heard that God's essential purpose is that we become living pillars in His living temple.
And that temple is God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Have you heard many songs celebrating that the living temple / city is the eternal Holy of Holies where God and man meet together - LIVE together?

This corporate entity matches Christ as His Bride, His Wife.
He is the Firstborn Son followed by many brothers built up into the Triune God, being with Him where He is.

Look again at Christ's mighty petition to His Father that MUST be fulfilled. He must perform a process
of perfecting the church into one in the Triune God. That is His desire that we be with Him where He is and was even
before that foundation of the world.

That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me.

Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:21-24)

I will write more perhaps latter.

 

[CoreyD]

I could not agree that in the millennium and in eternity only church age believers constitute New Jerusalem.

Why is that?

All the saved are constituents of New Jerusalem from all ages.

Do you have scripture(s) to support that?

In the sign of the New Jerusalem the twelve foundations have the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev. 21:14)
And at the twelve gates are inscribed the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, (Rev. 21:12)
So the old testamnt believers are signified as well as the new testament believers.

Are you saying that the twelve tribes of natural Israel are the Israel of God?
Galatians 6:19; Romans 2:28, 29 Romans 9:6;

Abraham the OT patriarch sought for a city with foundations from God. That city which he will find is New Jerusalem.
For he [Abraham] eagerly waited for the city which has the foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God. (Heb. 11:10)

Yes. Abraham, like all righteous ones, including David, looked forward to the establishment of the Kingdom, which Isaiah later prophesied about. Isaiah 9:6, 7
However, the verse does not say Abraham is a constituent of the New Jerusalem.

Are you saying though, that you do not agree that the building of God is laid on the Christ, the chief cornerstone, and the apostles, which is the foundation? Ephesians 2:19-22; Colossians 2:19
Which is first, the foundation, or the house? Is it not the foundation?

Is Christ the head of the body? Is the body not the Church? Did you not agree the Church started from the apostles?
You haven't changed your mind about the answers to these questions. Have you?
If not, then the belief you are holding to, is not comparable.

Also, would not Hebrews 11:16 be against your argument that no one will live in heaven forever?
It is a heavenly city. Is it, or isn't it?

If Abraham the father of faith (See Rom. 4:16) will not be disappointed in God's fulfillment of His promises, we should
expect that the other OT believers, and believing patriarchs, kings, prophets and priests will also be a part of that city.

They certainly won't be disappointed, because the promise was made to Abraham, which all faithful ones were aware of.
Galatians 3:8-21

8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”​

16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[f] meaning one person, who is Christ.​

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.​

28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

The promises were regarding the seed, and that seed, which is the Christ, is joined by heirs of the promise. Which are:
Ephesians 1:4, 5

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will​

Thus they looked forward to that seed that would bring blessings to the whole earth.
They certainly were not looking to be any place other than earth, and being blessed by the promised Messiah.
The secret regarding the Kingdom was revealed years later. Ephesians 1:9

The Old Testament believers in the sacrifices had their sins passed over in divine forebearance until Christ's
eternal redemption erased them all restrospectively.

I agree. However, they were not predestined to be sons of God, for the following reasons:

1. Christ did not make a covenant with them, for a kingdom. Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 13:1-4
2. Christ did not anoint them with holy spirit, as he promised his disciples, and did on the day of Pentecost 33 A.D. Acts 2:1-4
3. Along with that, they were not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ - a requirement for those who would enter the kingdom of heaven. John 3:3-8
4. They were not of the little flock of Jesus' sheep, who were promised the kingdom. Luke 12:32
5. It is God's will that the blessings come to all nations of the whole earth, by means of the seed. Abraham and his descendants were not the promised seed. Galatians 3:1-29

Please let me know which of these you disagree with, and why.

Christ Jesus . . . Whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood, for the demonstrating of His righteousness, in that in His forbearance God passed over the sins that had previously occurred, (See Romans 3:24,25)

Yes, that is scripture.

There are other reasons why it is right to include ALL of the OT believers in the final habitation of God.
These few are enough for one post.

Thanks, but they were not enough to show that "All the saved are constituents of New Jerusalem from all ages.".
Perhaps you had better post the others, that is, if they are any better than what's here.

 

[CoreyD]

What else does the bible say? We learn what is written. And we learn "Again, it is written . . . ".

It is written that the city of New Jerusalem is our eternal destin. It is called the temple of My God.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (Rev. 3:12)

You read that as speaking to all?
Since I understand that the Church - the body of Christ, is not all Jesus' sheep, but only a little flock (Luke 12:32; Revelation 7:1-9), I do not read that Jesus is making that promise to all his sheep.

And it is written that John saw no temple in the city because the temple was God the Almighty and the Lamb!

And I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Rev. 21:22)

If the entire city is a temple, and that temple if God the Almighty and the Lamb, that means our
destiny is to live in the Triune God and He in us making God and man one living temple.

God is therefore building New Jerusalem by building Himself into His people and they into Him.
While some are impressed with "going to heaven" what about the organic mingling of God and man for His temple/city?

In Revelation 3:12 to be made a pillar in His temple is a matter a life union between God and us.
To "go no more out" is a matter of permenancy of uninterrupted union with the Triune God.
We touch Him here and there. But we drift out as easily. The pillar is solidly built in to be a permenant support of the temple.

Where is the excitment of us going no more out of God the Almighty and the Lamb by the power of His Spirit?
Why not more songs about God bulding us into Himself to be His temple? Why should all the songs be about heaven?

It is arguable that man stays in heaven. We see His army coming FROM there to accompany Him to Armageddon.
But the Lord says the one made a pillar in His temple "shall by no means go our anymore."

He will write upon the one organically built into His living temple the name of the city of His God.
and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem,
That must mean ownership. He belongs to and is identified as the city New Jerusalem.

He will write upon him also His new name.
I will write upon him . . . My new name. (Rev. 3:12)
This again must mean His ownership. Like you might write your name upon your bible to indicate you are the owner.
And this is the new name of the Lord Jesus. This must be His name as corporate entity - a city of the mingling of Christ and His redeemed.

Shouldn't there be more gospel songs about becomming the city of God, His living temple?
And so many songs still about going to heaven?
The Triune God wants to build man into Himself and He into man.

Thanks for sharing your beliefs.
However, I want to focus on the scriptures.

The OP asks a question. You have done a decent job telling us why you believe the Scripture shows
believers forever in heaven.
But do you want to be in heaven forever and not be conformed to the image of Christ?
There is a story about a vulture who asked a cat if he would ride with him into the sky.
The cat said he didn't want to be in the sky because there were no mice up there.

What we Chrisians really should be conscerned about is transformation and conformation into the "man from heaven" Jesus Christ.

When He conforms all His called to the image of Christ the Firstborn among many brothers, He will obain the full Bride / City
New Jerusalem.

I believe we had better be more concerned that we are being taught the truth, rather than teachings of demons. John 18:37: 1 Timothy 4:1

Neither one of these passages, strictly speaking, are about GOING to heaven.

Strictly speaking? What do you mean?

Second Corinthisn 5:1,2 is about receiving a transfigured body whose source is not of this earth.
This is the being "swallowed up by [divine] life" the apostle mentions. That it the mortal being swallowed up in God's life.
Strictly speaking it is about receiving something rather than going somewhere.

Philippians 3:20 says we eagerly await the Savior FROM heaven. Our citizenship is there. But you seem to be
reading into it that we eagely await to GO there. Read it again. We eagerly await the One who is coming FROM there.

Are you saying this verse is not saying persons will receive a body not made with hands, eternal in the heaven?

 

[sparow]

Did you consult a dictionary to obtain that "definition?"

Yes, but not a US Baptist dictionary.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, but not a US Baptist dictionary.

Yeah, right! Your attempted insult noted. As with many you found something somewhere which supports your assumptions/presuppositions.
an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion
2a
: a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion
b
: a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things

3
often capitalized : the final assumption of Christians into heaven during the end-time according to Christian theology

Definition of RAPTURE

an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion; a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion; a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[oikonomia]

Why is that?

My replies again will lean towards the matter of God's habitation, dwelling place, and living temple in His saints.
For some reason you seem to want to debate that Abraham will not be a part of New Jerusalem?
You have some bone to pick about Abraham being left out of New Jerusalem during the millennium ?

I submitted Hebrews 11:10 - For he eagerly waited for the city which has the foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God.

I am not skeptical to believe what Abraham eagerly sought, God will withhold from him in the millennium of reward or in eternity.
In fact all the heroes of the faith in Hebrews 11 will finally not be at all disappointed. Abraham was one mentioned
among many OT seekers who may have died before receiving the promises.
And these all, having obtained a good testimony through their faith, did not obtain the promise, (v.11)

If they "obtained a good testimony" God will indeed honor their faith and do far above all that they could imagine
or think or ask for. It is inconceivable to me that having borne such faithful testimony God withholds from them what they sought.

I do not think either Abraham or the other mentioned heroes of faith KNEW exactly the full significance of New Jerusalem.
That is this that this city which has foundations whose Architect and Builder is God was the enlargment, multiplication, and encrease of Christ. They did not know the full extent of God's eternal economy to unite with man for an eternal life union.

Abraham sought for "a better country" and "a country of their own." The church and New Jerusalem is far above what could
enter into the heart of man. And it is the final result of the God who can operate in us to do far above what we can ask or think- though we do ask and think.
But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think,
according to the power which operates in us (Eph. 3:20)

Do you have scripture(s) to support that?

Are you taking the position that Abraham will not be a constituent of New Jerusalem?

Are you saying that the promise of the inwelling Spirit is granted to those because of Abraham but Abraham himself
will not ever partake of the promise of the Spirit?

In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal. 3:14)

I am not so skeptical to believe others because of Abraham's faith receive the Spirit of the Triune God but Abraham never does.

And the Spirit indwelling man is for the purpose of God building His habitation of God in spirit.
Christ Jesus Himself . . . In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit.

If man receives the Third Person of the Triune God, the Spirit, it is not merely for thier individual salvation.
It is for the building of them also into a dwelling place of God in spirit.

Do you imagine that some who have the Spirit are built into His holy temple and others who have the Spirit
are left out, on the sidelines, excluded from His dwelling place in spirit? I do not believe this.

Now I do not have to know what God has not revealed clearly to us - like WHEN Abraham received the Spirit of Christ.
I have no verse telling me WHEN the OT saved received the Spirit. But I have no doubt that God dispenses His life
into them for their inclusion of the building of His holy temple in the Lord and His consummate dwelling place of God in spirit.

Are you saying that the twelve tribes of natural Israel are the Israel of God?
Galatians 6:19; Romans 2:28, 29 Romans 9:6;

Galatians 6:16 is probably what you meant.
And as many as walk by this rule, peace be upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.
The ones called, chosen, selected, and saved by God will all be brought into "a new creation."
I am saying all whom God ordains from OT times will walk by this rule making them also "the Israel of God."

However the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those who are His, and, Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness. (2 Tim. 2:19)

Besides the heroes of the faith in Hebrews 11 the Lord knows the OT believers who will all be in New Jerusalem.
And that is the ultimate "new creation" and the "Israel of God."

Then you ask if I am contradicting Romans 2:28,29.
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart,
in spirit, not in letter, whose praise is not from men, but from God.

I uphold Romans 2:28,29 because every single person in New Jerusalem for certain will have INWARDLY have had the work
of the cross and the Spirit - the circumcision of the fallen heart.

Once again, I am not told excactly WHEN God operates in them as He does in the NT saints.
That God would LEAVE them unoperated upon inwardly forever is not conceivable to me.
Nor do I contradict Romans 9:6 . . . for not all who are out of Israel are Israel;
I am not worried about this. The Lord knows those who are His,
All those into whom He has dispensed His life and nature, He knows and He already SEES them as part of New Jerusalem.

Paul said - For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God
and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 3:3)

I have confidence that all who become the dwelling place of God in spirit:
1.) will have no confidence in the flesh
2.) will have learned to live and serve in His Spirit.
3.) will have thier total boast in Chirst Jesus WHENEVER they lived in the past.
4.) and will be the true cutting off of the fallen old man - the true circumcision to bring them into a new creation.

Yes. Abraham, like all righteous ones, including David, looked forward to the establishment of the Kingdom, which Isaiah later prophesied about. Isaiah 9:6, 7 However, the verse does not say Abraham is a constituent of the New Jerusalem.

Because you are very impressed with the kingdom you mention it.
But the kingdom and government of God is one aspect of many in His eternal purpose.
Surely, there is this kingdom aspect.

But there is also the aspect of the dwelling place of God.
There is the aspect of the Bride of Christ to match Christ as a counterpart, a Wife for His satisfaction.

These aspects of New Jerusalem are important as well.
So Abraham's eager expectation was not only for the kingdom.
It was a permenent dwelling place that was not a temporary tent.

For he eagerly waited for the city which has the foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God. (Heb 11:10)

He sought rest. He sought a home. He sought God's country and God's city.
What he will receive exceeds by a billion times his fondest imaginations, as with us also.

But as it is written, “Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and which have not come up in man’s heart; things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” (1 Cor. 2:9)

We in the new covenant, if we would be able to listen to the apostles see more into the depths of revelation.

But to us God has revealed them through the Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. (v.10)

Are you saying though, that you do not agree that the building of God is laid on the Christ, the chief cornerstone, and the apostles, which is the foundation? Ephesians 2:19-22; Colossians 2:19

No I am not disagreeing with these truths. Why would I?

Which is first, the foundation, or the house? Is it not the foundation?

From God's transcendent perspective, we were chosen in Christ before the creation of the universe - before the foundation of the world.

Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4,5)

To some extent when we come to a book like Ephesians we have to set aside our time bound concept.
Our typical concept of sequence of causes and effects have their limitations.

Here before there was a problem of sin or death, before there was a creation, God had in His heart a good pleasure.
And this good pleasure was all wrapped up in Christ. Our destiny in the sphere of Christ was foreknown and planned
even before He laid the foundation of the world - ie. created the universe.

The implication of Ephesians 1:4,5 is very strong that His plan to have holy sons with His life and nature was the very
reason why He created the world. In this sense, in the heart of God New Jerusalem preceeds EVERYTHING that has occured.

New Jerusalem, you should know, is the aggregate collective expressions of all the sons of God.

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (Rev. 21:7)

I am going to end this post here.

 

[oikonomia]

Thus they looked forward to that seed that would bring blessings to the whole earth.
They certainly were not looking to be any place other than earth, and being blessed by the promised Messiah.
The secret regarding the Kingdom was revealed years later. Ephesians 1:9

Ephesians is key to the whole Bible because it reveals God's eternal purpose.
. . . the eternal purpose which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord, (Eph. 3:11)

That means this is THE purpose of all the ages.
Therefore when you come to the climax of the entire Bible, Revelation 21,22, you must see this is
the fulfillment of everything God has done. It is all for this eternal purpose.

The kingdom is one of a number of aspects of this eternal purpose.
Jacob, for example had his vision of Bethel - the house of God in Genesis 28.
A dwelling place for God to live on the earth was the governing vision this patriarch saw.

God's profound purpose is exceedingly deep. So in stages He progressively unveiled His heart.
That is also what Ephesians says.

And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughout the ages has been hidden in God, who created all things, In order that now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenlies the multifarious wisdom of God might be made known through the church, According to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus . . . (Eph. 3:9-11a)

But coming back to Jacob's dream of a house for God. Jesus referred to that dream in further unveiling that He Himself
was the living dwelling place of God on the earth in His incarnation. Here is John 2 He points to Himself as the human / divine Bethel, the reality of what Jacob envisioned in Genesis 28.

And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God
ascending and descending on the Son of Man. (John 1:51) The Son of Man - the house of God, the living Bethel -
Jesus, connecting earth to heaven as a ladder. Jacob's dream of the dreadful house of God pointed to Christ, God become a man.

Sure, there is a kingdom aspect to this. But there is the aspect of God finding the place of His rest IN HUMANITY.
All His saints are eventually constituents of this purpose of the ages.

Now I will attempt to convince you of this below.

I agree. However, they were not predestined to be sons of God, for the following reasons:

1. Christ did not make a covenant with them, for a kingdom. Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 13:1-4

All the covenants have the final consummation in view in Ephesians 2:21,22 and Revelation 21,22.
Here again you refer to the kingdom aspect in Luke 22:28. I love the kingdom aspect as well.
But Ephesians concerning the eternal purpose says -

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; (Eph. 2:21,22)

All the fellow citizens, all the members of the household of God, including the former strangers and sojourners are to be one
building in life. That is the church enlarged into New Jerusalem at the climax of all the ages. One building of God and man fitted together.
God's life is growing in them to produce an eternal holy temple in the Lord.

Jacob had a dream of this house of God long before the incarnation of the Son of God.
And Jesus said in essence - "Here I am, the house of God. Destroy this house and in three days I will raise it up."
The cornerstone had come to be lain for the rest of redeemed humanity to be built around.

I had a little technical problem copying your other points for response.
But they all emphasize the KINGDOM aspect.
I think you should be enlarged to see the kingdom plus some other aspects of His purpose of the ages.

1. Along with that, they were not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ - a requirement for those who would enter the kingdom of heaven. John 3:3-8

I don't know why you would consider this as a reason to exclude ALL redeemed humanity of all ages in New Jerusalem.
He told us that He had other sheep and He must bring them also.

And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must lead them also, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one flock, one Shepherd. (John 10:16)

I believe "other sheep" include pre-new covenant age believers. I don't think He meant only "other sheep" of the church age.
For example, the great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, cheering us on in Hebrews 11.
These OT hereos of faith are waiting for our perfection that THEY may also be included in perfecting.
Our perfecting in the church age opens the way for their longed for completion in perfecting.

Much needs to be said about this in Hebrews 11.

And these all, having obtained a good testimony through their faith, did not obtain the promise,
Because God has provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. (Heb. 11:39,40)

But God has His kingdom promises. And God has His other related promises as well. Ie other sheep brought into
one flock and former strangers made fellow cirtizens of the household of God.

1. They were not of the little flock of Jesus' sheep, who were promised the kingdom. Luke 12:32

Once again, you have the kingdom in mind. There are other aspects of His eternal purpose in addition.
For example - ALL His redeemed saints together must match Christ for His Wife/ City.
And ALL His redeemed must eventually be built up into His dwelling place.

Progressively, the Triune God worked for this eternal purpose. He had this in His heart "before the foundation of the world."
He is not the God of many unrelated miscellaneous acts. He has a central purpose.
And that fulfuillment we see in the conclusion of the divine revelation - Revelation 21,22.

When you read about Abraham's longed for "better country" and "city with foundations" or Jacob's dreadful house of God
-Bethel or David's expected kingdom too, you must project forward to the climax of history to New Jerusalem.

Have you read that in Christ are all the promises of God find their YES?

For as many promises of God as there are, in Him is the Yes;
therefore also through Him is the Amen to God, for glory through us to God. ( 2 Cor. 1:21)

Thanks, but they were not enough to show that "All the saved are constituents of New Jerusalem from all ages.".
Perhaps you had better post the others, that is, if they are any better than what's here.

What I have presented is adaquate. Evidence is not persuasion.
The reasons you present for wanting to exclude the OT saints from also coming to the heavenly Jerusalem, are not adaquate to exclude them to me.

The "universal gathering" is just that. And the gathering includes OT and NT believers according to the pure word
in Hebrews 12 about what we all have come forward to.

But you have come forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, to the universal gathering;

And to the church of the firstborn, who have been enrolled in the heavens; and to God, the Judge of all; and to the spirits of righteous men who have been made perfect;

And to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, which speaks something better than that of Abel. (Heb. 12:22-24)

This heavenly Jerusalem is New Jerusalem seen in the sign of her coming down out of heaven from God.
The names of the new covenant apostles on her foundations, the names of the twelve tribes of Israel over her gates.

Do not press me about who from the twelve tribes enters. God knows those who are His.
And if their names are on the gates, how is it that they cannot themselves enter ?
From Abel to John the Baptist, the Lord knows who have received His divine life.

I may not know when or how God perfects the spirits of men from the previous ages.
We are responsible for what we do know as His intention for us in the church age.

The spirits of just men made perfect will include the perfecting of all those whom He has called.
He knows who they are. And I expect that we will be amazed at His faithfulness, wisdom, and skill to perfect all His people.

 

[CoreyD]

My replies again will lean towards the matter of God's habitation, dwelling place, and living temple in His saints.
For some reason you seem to want to debate that Abraham will not be a part of New Jerusalem?
You have some bone to pick about Abraham being left out of New Jerusalem during the millennium ?

I submitted Hebrews 11:10 - For he eagerly waited for the city which has the foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God.

I am not skeptical to believe what Abraham eagerly sought, God will withhold from him in the millennium of reward or in eternity.
In fact all the heroes of the faith in Hebrews 11 will finally not be at all disappointed. Abraham was one mentioned
among many OT seekers who may have died before receiving the promises.
And these all, having obtained a good testimony through their faith, did not obtain the promise, (v.11)

If they "obtained a good testimony" God will indeed honor their faith and do far above all that they could imagine
or think or ask for. It is inconceivable to me that having borne such faithful testimony God withholds from them what they sought.

I do not think either Abraham or the other mentioned heroes of faith KNEW exactly the full significance of New Jerusalem.
That is this that this city which has foundations whose Architect and Builder is God was the enlargment, multiplication, and encrease of Christ. They did not know the full extent of God's eternal economy to unite with man for an eternal life union.

Abraham sought for "a better country" and "a country of their own." The church and New Jerusalem is far above what could
enter into the heart of man. And it is the final result of the God who can operate in us to do far above what we can ask or think- though we do ask and think.
But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think,
according to the power which operates in us (Eph. 3:20)

Do you remember ever looking forward to the ice-cream van? When it came, did you get to be in it, and did it take you along, or did you benefit from, what the ice-cream van brought?
The Bible clearly says, Through your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have heard and obeyed My voice.” Genesis 22:18

Abraham is not left out. He gets ice-cream as well - blessings from the seed.
How does the Bible describe the seed?

“And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:16, 29

It does not say Abraham is the seed, does it?
So, Abraham is neither the Christ, nor the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise.
Do you agree, or disagree?

Are you taking the position that Abraham will not be a constituent of New Jerusalem?

Are you saying that the promise of the inwelling Spirit is granted to those because of Abraham but Abraham himself
will not ever partake of the promise of the Spirit?

In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal. 3:14)

I am not so skeptical to believe others because of Abraham's faith receive the Spirit of the Triune God but Abraham never does.

And the Spirit indwelling man is for the purpose of God building His habitation of God in spirit.
Christ Jesus Himself . . . In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit.

If man receives the Third Person of the Triune God, the Spirit, it is not merely for thier individual salvation.
It is for the building of them also into a dwelling place of God in spirit.

Do you imagine that some who have the Spirit are built into His holy temple and others who have the Spirit
are left out, on the sidelines, excluded from His dwelling place in spirit? I do not believe this.

Now I do not have to know what God has not revealed clearly to us - like WHEN Abraham received the Spirit of Christ.
I have no verse telling me WHEN the OT saved received the Spirit. But I have no doubt that God dispenses His life
into them for their inclusion of the building of His holy temple in the Lord and His consummate dwelling place of God in spirit.

I understand you do not doubt your belief, but please remember that your belief, is not the focus here.
We are looking at the scriptures. If you cannot show from the scriptures that persons prior to Jesus were anointed by holy spirit, as begotten sons of God, then it is a belief that is unsupported scripture wise.
Even if you believe it with all your heart.

Galatians 6:16 is probably what you meant.
And as many as walk by this rule, peace be upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.
The ones called, chosen, selected, and saved by God will all be brought into "a new creation."
I am saying all whom God ordains from OT times will walk by this rule making them also "the Israel of God."

You cannot decide that.

However the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those who are His, and, Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness. (2 Tim. 2:19)

Besides the heroes of the faith in Hebrews 11 the Lord knows the OT believers who will all be in New Jerusalem.
And that is the ultimate "new creation" and the "Israel of God."

Then you ask if I am contradicting Romans 2:28,29.
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart,
in spirit, not in letter, whose praise is not from men, but from God.

I uphold Romans 2:28,29 because every single person in New Jerusalem for certain will have INWARDLY have had the work
of the cross and the Spirit - the circumcision of the fallen heart.

Once again, I am not told excactly WHEN God operates in them as He does in the NT saints.
That God would LEAVE them unoperated upon inwardly forever is not conceivable to me.
Nor do I contradict Romans 9:6 . . . for not all who are out of Israel are Israel;
I am not worried about this. The Lord knows those who are His,
All those into whom He has dispensed His life and nature, He knows and He already SEES them as part of New Jerusalem.

Yes, the Lord knows. and tell us, so we ought not decide otherwise. Ephesians 1:

Paul said - For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God
and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 3:3)

I have confidence that all who become the dwelling place of God in spirit:
1.) will have no confidence in the flesh
2.) will have learned to live and serve in His Spirit.
3.) will have thier total boast in Chirst Jesus WHENEVER they lived in the past.
4.) and will be the true cutting off of the fallen old man - the true circumcision to bring them into a new creation.


Because you are very impressed with the kingdom you mention it.
But the kingdom and government of God is one aspect of many in His eternal purpose.
Surely, there is this kingdom aspect.

But there is also the aspect of the dwelling place of God.
There is the aspect of the Bride of Christ to match Christ as a counterpart, a Wife for His satisfaction.

These aspects of New Jerusalem are important as well.
So Abraham's eager expectation was not only for the kingdom.
It was a permenent dwelling place that was not a temporary tent.

For he eagerly waited for the city which has the foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God. (Heb 11:10)

He sought rest. He sought a home. He sought God's country and God's city.
What he will receive exceeds by a billion times his fondest imaginations, as with us also.

But as it is written, “Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and which have not come up in man’s heart; things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” (1 Cor. 2:9)

We in the new covenant, if we would be able to listen to the apostles see more into the depths of revelation.

But to us God has revealed them through the Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. (v.10)



No I am not disagreeing with these truths. Why would I?


From God's transcendent perspective, we were chosen in Christ before the creation of the universe - before the foundation of the world.

Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4,5)

To some extent when we come to a book like Ephesians we have to set aside our time bound concept.
Our typical concept of sequence of causes and effects have their limitations.

Here before there was a problem of sin or death, before there was a creation, God had in His heart a good pleasure.
And this good pleasure was all wrapped up in Christ. Our destiny in the sphere of Christ was foreknown and planned
even before He laid the foundation of the world - ie. created the universe.

The implication of Ephesians 1:4,5 is very strong that His plan to have holy sons with His life and nature was the very
reason why He created the world. In this sense, in the heart of God New Jerusalem preceeds EVERYTHING that has occured.

New Jerusalem, you should know, is the aggregate collective expressions of all the sons of God.

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (Rev. 21:7)

I am going to end this post here.

Paul Addresses the Church - the body of Christ. Not us, or their predecessors.
Moses addressed Israel, the congregation of God. Not us, or their forefathers.

 

[CoreyD]

Getting back to the OP, @oikonomia
Are you saying that 2 Corinthians 5:1 is not saying persons will receive a body not made with hands, eternal in the heaven?

 

[oikonomia]

The Bible clearly says, Through your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have heard and obeyed My voice.” Genesis 22:18

I don't see how that excludes Abraham from also coming to the Father, the source and origin of eternal life.
And NO ONE comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

Now which is your position?
1.) Abraham will never come to the Father for divine life.
2.) Abraham will come to the Father yet through ANOTHER way besides the Son of God

Or perhaps your position is that some people will have the life of the divine Father
but will not be a part of the "habitation of God in spirit".

But this is shortsighted. This is seeing the receiving of the Father's divine life only for
personal, indiviualistic, isolated blessing having nothing to do with His living temple.

The receiving of the Father's life is of course a personal blessing.
But God has His purpose to dwell in His people as a corporate expression of God mingled with man.

I'll prove to you that God ALWAYS wanted to live in man from Isaiah 66:1,2

Thus says Jehovah, / Heaven is My throne, / And the earth the footstool for My feet. / Where then is the house that you will build for Me, / And where is the place of My rest?

For all these things My hand has made, / And so all these things have come into being, declares Jehovah. / But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor / And of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word.

The throne of God is Heaven.
The earth is His footstool.
All the created things His own hand made.

Being that the case WHERE, He asks, is His house? Where is the place of His rest? How will man build a temple for Him to dwell in ?
To this kind of man He will look for His dwelling place - But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor / And of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word.

That means the Son of God. He is the one absolutely meek, poor in Himself, and of a absolutely contrite spirit trembling at the word of His Father. First off God will look to Jesus as the man Who is the living house of God for His rest.

This is His beloved Son in whom He is well pleased. The dwelling of God in man starts with the incarnation of Christ.

 

[oikonomia]

“And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:16, 29

Before I address this I would ask you about a remark you made.
You remarked something to the effect that I was teaching doctrines of demons.

Before I go on, in your next post to me explain this.
Specifically HOW do any demons or any of Satan's emmissaries benefit from me teaching
that Abraham will be in the final New Jerusalem?

Your accusation amounts to me furthering somehow Satan's schemes by
saying Abraham and the OT believers also arrive in the New Jerusalem.

How does that teaching further the schemes of the Devil and demons ?

 

[oikonomia]

Paul Addresses the Church - the body of Christ. Not us, or their predecessors.
Moses addressed Israel, the congregation of God. Not us, or their forefathers.

I am a constituent of the Church.
You claim to be a Christian and you do not have such a confidence?
That is too bad if you do not think that Ephesians is not written with you as a Christian in mind.

Perhaps your churching life is very practically far from see something of His Body function.
Then you should ask the Lord that He cause this matter to become more apparent in your experience.

I believe that He will answer that desire.

"Paul addresses the Church" you say as if that is not believers in Christ.

The salutation of the letter:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 1;1)

You may say that you and I do not live in Ephesus. But I would hope you would not say we are not to some extent "faithful in Christ Jesus."
The faithful are those who are faithful in "the faith" - (Eph. 4:13; 2 Tim. 4:7; Jude 3).

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (v.2)

You do not enjoy the grace of God? You have no enjoyment of the peace of God?
You cannot say that God is your dear heavenly Father or that Jesus is not Lord to you?

Enough of this nonsense. This letter is addressed to the universal church as well as that local assembly in
Ephesus.

 

[oikonomia]

Getting back to the OP, @oikonomia
Are you saying that 2 Corinthians 5:1 is not saying persons will receive a body not made with hands, eternal in the heaven?

Second Corinthains 5:1 is about what we are to receive.
You are reading into it where we GO.

The Apostle is speaking about what we expect to receive.
You are reading into that where we expect to go.

For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven,

Our dwelling place from heaven describes the origin of this glorified state - certainly not of this world.
We are to be clothed in His divine life and glory - swallowed up in ZOE life.

. . . we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (v.4b)