Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

Major1 said:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Rapture) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;(A/C).

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I can agree with that!

Kaon said:

It is appointed to man to die once, then Judgment.

If you believe you will be whisked away in between advents, and get to watch as the SAME SINNERS go through hell on earth (this, also after NOT believing in full obedience) then I hope you find what you are looking for. It is a strong delusion I hope everyone is released from, but it is intoxicating to think that God would qualify sinners, and that He would let them sit out what He has appointed for the generations since the beginning: to be witnesses and a remnant.



And, I am not denying the Word of God. It is not the biblical canon; it is a Living Entity. Paul is a man; he is not Christ. And, while he is in the canon, I understand he is NOT contradicting Christ even though he is the most overused human.

Christ Himself, and Him on your heart from the New Covenant is what is GUARANTEED to us. We have Grace, the Holy Spirit, God's Mercy, God's forgiveness, God's love, and God's ATTENTION - all given to US by Him. And, despite none of the prophecies yet to come speaking of a rapture we still need to be SWEPT AWAY?

Daniel 11 told you that the "wise ones" will teach many, but some wise ones will die by sword, flame, spoil and captivity. Paul said at the last TRUMP, the dead rise first (since they are already dead,) and then the living rise. That is the RESURRECTION, not rapture.

God is not angry with us; no matter what happens to us, God is not angry with us. I am very afraid this rapture doctrine, and the thought that we don't have to follow God's commandments are parts of strong delusion. You lose your faith if you are wrong about the rapture. And, there is a set up to destroy ALL faith - even atheism - in exchange for a MYSTERY religion served to us by false prophets.

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I can not help but wonder where and from whom you received such false thoughts and teachings.

You said..............
"and the thought that we don't have to follow God's commandments are parts of strong delusion. You lose your faith if you are wrong about the rapture."

Where in the Scriptures is such a teaching found???????

My dear friend. We are saved through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and not anything else including the Rapture.

If anything, Biblical it is the opposite of what you just said.

Titus 2:12–13 ..............
"training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting and looking for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ".

The “blessed hope,” then, is the joyful assurance that God will extend His benefits to us and that Jesus Christ will return. We are waiting for this event now. Jesus said He would return (John 14:3), the angels said He would return (Acts 1:11), and the epistles say He will return. Jesus could come back at any time for His church, which includes all believers in Christ from the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 onward.

This event is called the rapture. If YOU do not want to believe it and accept it.......
no problem for me my friend.

But the Bible says It will be announced by the voice of the archangel and God’s trumpet call. The bodies of those who have died will be raised to be joined with their souls, and then the bodies of those believers still living on earth will be changed into a body like the Lord’s resurrection body. The believers raised from the dead and the believers living at Christ’s return will meet the Lord in the air and be taken to heaven. They will “fly the friendly skies united” (cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18). This will happen in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52).

Should this blessed hope of Christ’s any-time return have an effect on the believer in Jesus Christ? John wrote, “All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as [Jesus] is pure” (1 John 3:3). The believer anticipating Christ’s blessed return will seek to live, in the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, a life of purity. We will all stand before the Lord and give an account of how we lived for Him on earth (2 Corinthians 10:5).
What is the blessed hope?

Since Zephaniah 1:14-18 has been brought up in this thread, let's examine that passage by comparing it with other passages.

Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.


Let's compare to the great tribulation, which for one is meaning the 42 months in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Obviously the events recorded that occur within this 42 months per Revelation 13 can't be occurring during the time of the events recorded in Zephaniah 1:14-18.


That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress(Zephaniah 1:15)---and still referring to this same day---And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung(Zephaniah 1:17)---therefore can't possibly be taking place when the following is taking place instead----And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?(Revelation 13:4)---And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations(Revelation 13:7).

Like I have mentioned in the past, the wrath 1 Thessalonians 5 indicates that those of the day are not appointed to, it is not meaning the great tribulation, it's meaning the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord follows after the tribulation. Therefore Pretrib is based on a false premise from the get go, since that position typically claims the wrath one is not appointed to, it is meaning the wrath concerning the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is the time period Zephaniah 1:14-18 has in view, what I have underlined above. The text indicates it follows after the tribulation of those days, the tribulation of those days obviously referring to this same 42 months recorded in Revelation 13.

Major1 said:

I can not help but wonder where and from whom you received such false thoughts and teachings.

You said..............
"and the thought that we don't have to follow God's commandments are parts of strong delusion. You lose your faith if you are wrong about the rapture."

Where in the Scriptures is such a teaching found???????

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It isn't found ANYWHERE that we don't have to follow God's commandments. Yet, I often hear of an "old law, and new law" a if God is a different God from the time of Noah.

We are expected to be obedient to God - that means we need to know His commandments and follow them. Faith without works is DEAD, and you can say you have faith and believe all day long - but the demons also believe! If you do not substantiate your faith by exercising obedience (such that you show you trust in God's promises when He says He will reward the righteous, and those who follow His commandments.)

But, there is no rapture. That is not how God operates. He will push and strengthen us instead of "removing" us.

Postvieww said:

angels and locusts wear crowns,

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Nope that is not what it says or means

The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.

The Greek original text states "were something like crowns"

Imitation trying to be in opposition of God - in place of

Postvieww said:

I can agree with that!

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v.1 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him..

v.3 For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed.. CJB


I would submit that the "rapture" is not in view but rather the resurrection. To put it another way, the only rapture is the one associated with the resurrection.

Dig4truth said:

v.1 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him..

v.3 For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed.. CJB


I would submit that the "rapture" is not in view but rather the resurrection. To put it another way, the only rapture is the one associated with the resurrection.

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But to put it the correct way you should recognize the harvests by God , do you really think he is telling us about gardening ?
Do you really think the restrainer will continue restraining after being taken out of the way ? The restrainer is restraining the evil to be brought on from the false messiah - this happens long before Jesus returns to earth

Kaon said:

It isn't found ANYWHERE that we don't have to follow God's commandments. Yet, I often hear of an "old law, and new law" a if God is a different God from the time of Noah.

We are expected to be obedient to God - that means we need to know His commandments and follow them. Faith without works is DEAD, and you can say you have faith and believe all day long - but the demons also believe! If you do not substantiate your faith by exercising obedience (such that you show you trust in God's promises when He says He will reward the righteous, and those who follow His commandments.)

But, there is no rapture. That is not how God operates. He will push and strengthen us instead of "removing" us.

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Amen, even Yeshua prayed;

"I have given them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world — just as I myself do not belong to the world. 15 I don’t ask you to take them out of the world, but to protect them from the Evil One. 16 They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. John 17:14-16 CJB

seventysevens said:

But to put it the correct way you should recognize the harvests by God , do you really think he is telling us about gardening ?
Do you really think the restrainer will continue restraining after being taken out of the way ? The restrainer is restraining the evil to be brought on from the false messiah - this happens long before Jesus returns to earth

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I believe I did put it the correct way.
The restrainer will be removed prior to the Great Tribulation and it is clear that Yeshua returns after the GT.

There's those pesky little verses that speaks about;

Rev 13:6-8 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. NASB


Saints who are written in the Book of Life are still on earth when the anti-messiah unleashes his fury on the world.

Dig4truth said:

I believe I did put it the correct way.
The restrainer will be removed prior to the Great Tribulation and it is clear that Yeshua returns after the GT.

There's those pesky little verses that speaks about;

Rev 13:6-8 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. NASB


Saints who are written in the Book of Life are still on earth when the anti-messiah unleashes his fury on the world.

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Since you are looking to be in the Great Tribulation- you shall be in it
But those of us that follow Gods teaching won't be a part of it because we understand the scripture and have faith that Jesus will harpazo those who are faithfully following him
In a world where the fact is that when people suffer starvation and there is no food available they become cannibal , it will too easy for many many many saints to just simply give in to the beast and accept his mark in order to just get food to relieve the starvation
But in this world where the everyday conveniences of cars computers cell phones , indoor plumbing are taken away from people until they accept the mark of the beast will fall away from Christ fast just to get food and the comfort of normal living
Good luck

Major1 said:

1 Thess. 5:9 actually says....
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ".

"US" there is the church! The WRATH is the agony and tribulation taking place at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. We, the church will be spared this event.

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The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are two completely different words.

You are attempting to make them the same in order to make your doctrine work.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In the verse above a person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.
This verse kills the pretrib doctrine.

The following links show the origin of your doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

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seventysevens said:

Since you are looking to be in the Great Tribulation- you shall be in it

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lol

And since you apparently are not looking to be in the GT, only one way that can be possible---the GT doesn't occur within your lifetime. Meaning that you literally physically die before this event ever occurs. Being raptured first doesn't count as something not occurring in your lifetime.

BABerean2 said:

The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are two completely different words.

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Everyone goes through times of tribulation through life , but the time frame that Jesus calls "the hour of trial that will come upon the inhabitants of earth"
If He did not return all flesh on earth would die - the only reason that does not happen is because Jesus does return

God Himself sends the man of lawlessness who becomes the beast , the Man of Lawlessness is the great delusion God sends because people that reject Jesus will accept the false messiah- so God sends an imposter as messiah so that those who rejected Jesus will suffer during the GT
You are attempting to mislead people in order to make your doctrine work.

DavidPT said:

lol

And since you apparently are not looking to be in the GT, only one way that can be possible---the GT doesn't occur within your lifetime. Meaning that you literally physically die before this event ever occurs. Being raptured first doesn't count as something not occurring in your lifetime.

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Wrong - you choose to be among the foolish virgins
you refuse Gods teachings of the harvests -- you gonna have a rough time of it

Major1 said:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 ......
“Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

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Heaven is not mentioned in this prophecy. Jesus has come from heaven, verse 16, to commence His Millennium reign.
There is no scripture that says God will take people to heaven. The 'rapture to heaven' theory is false teaching.

seventysevens said:

Everyone goes through times of tribulation through life , but the time frame that Jesus calls "the hour of trial that will come upon the inhabitants of earth"
If He did not return all flesh on earth would die - the only reason that does not happen is because Jesus does return

God Himself sends the man of lawlessness who becomes the beast , the Man of Lawlessness is the great delusion God sends because people that reject Jesus will accept the false messiah- so God sends an imposter as messiah so that those who rejected Jesus will suffer during the GT
You are attempting to mislead people in order to make your doctrine work.

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Mat_7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


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seventysevens said:

Wrong - you choose to be among the foolish virgins
you refuse Gods teachings of the harvests -- you gonna have a rough time of it

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By claiming that Christians who do not agree with the pretrib doctrine will be "left behind", while you travel to heaven in the pretrib removal of the Church, you have turned your doctrine into a cult.

Whenever, the event occurs whether it be pretrib, midtrib, posttrib, or some other possibility, all Christians will be included.
Otherwise, most of the Christians who lived before 1830, would not be included in the event.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf



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BABerean2 said:

By claiming that Christians who do not agree with the pretrib doctrine will be "left behind", while you travel to heaven in the pretrib removal of the Church, you have turned your doctrine into a cult.Whenever, the event occurs whether it be pretrib, midtrib, posttrib,

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Your teaching of replacement theology and denial of the harvests of God is a cult teaching and you obviously do not understand the harvests of Gods people will be before the GT , and after it begins , and after it ends , and only those who are looking for Jesus to come will be going , those who refuse to believe there will be a harvest before the GT will have to wait until the next harvest occurs -that is if they were able to be strong enough in their faith to deal with starvation , and lose of everything including their homes which they need money to pay for - all while trying to keep hidden from the AC army looking for people who have refused to worship the false Messiah
it definitely will be a very difficult tribulation for those who reject Christ harpazo

BABerean2 said:

The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are two completely different words.

You are attempting to make them the same in order to make your doctrine work.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In the verse above a person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.
This verse kills the pretrib doctrine.

The following links show the origin of your doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

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Indeed. Wrath and tribulation are two different words but that is hardly the point.

The "Wrath" of God will be seen during the last 3 & 1/2 years of the Tribulation period.

Romans 2:5 says...........
“But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed”.

Jere. 30:23...........
"Behold the storm of the Lord! Wrath has gone forth, a whirling tempest; it will burst upon the head of the wicked."

Nahum 1:2................
"The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies."

Rom 1:18..........
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

The Old Testament prophets often wrote of a day in the future, the "day of wrath" and that will be the Day of the Lord which will be Armageddon.

Zephaniah 1:14-15............
"The great day of the LORD is near- near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the LORD is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry. That day will be a day of wrath- a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness".


You then posted..........Rev 12:11----
" And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

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You are very mistaken my dear friend. And they overcame him = continues the explanation concerning why Satan is thrown down from heaven to earth. The pronoun they refers to the brethren on earth. ​

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The blood of the Lamb refers to the death of Jesus of course.. Because of the death of Jesus, the brethren conquered Satan. They believed that Jesus is Lord.​

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The church is NOT in view in chapter 12 as the WOMAN is the Nation of Israel.​

If anything at all, the people in Rev. 12 in my opinion would then be the Old. Test. saints that Jesus took with Him on His assentation to heaven.​

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As far as when the Rapture was developed......it makes no difference at all.​

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The Doctrine of Grace was in the Bible for 1500 years before Luther brought it out.​

If we follow your logic then the doctrine of Grace by which YOU are saved does not exist.​

​

The Rapture was in the Bible for 2000 years and it was developed exactly at the time God wanted it to be.​

BABerean2 said:

By claiming that Christians who do not agree with the pretrib doctrine will be "left behind", while you travel to heaven in the pretrib removal of the Church, you have turned your doctrine into a cult.

Whenever, the event occurs whether it be pretrib, midtrib, posttrib, or some other possibility, all Christians will be included.
Otherwise, most of the Christians who lived before 1830, would not be included in the event.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf



.

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Agreed! As I have stated, we are saved by FAITH in the Lord Jesus and not by faith in the Rapture.

And then it is just as Biblically true that if a man has heard the Gospel and rejected Christ, he then will not be able to be saved after the Rapture.