• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

where exactly did preterist beliefs orginate

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by gwyyn, Jun 6, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,940
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make.

    Is it that you believe everything in the Bible is meant to be only relevant to us today, and not to the generations that preceeded us?

    There can be only one endtimes generation, and Jesus and the apostles all taught and believed that they were that generation.

    Were they wrong?
     
  2. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    No, please, why do you hold firm to the belief that the disciples believed they were the end time generation? They had an important mission: to teach others the word of God, through his son Jesus Christ. Can you imagine what the world would be like today, if there was no bible published? If the letters that the disciples written- bearing witness to the son of God- were destroyed? There would be silence in this world. Blessed is he who has not seen and believes. They saw Jesus. They walked with him. They traveled with him. They learned from him. He was their <master>. And we (generations preceding and following, if God is willing) are also his disciples, when we gain the insight and share that knowledge with others.

    The book of Revelation is interesting to study; there is a length of time involved, which increases near the seventh seal being opened. I believe it is important to have patience regarding time, because we are told that although we change and the world changes, God does not change. Yes, our ancestors before us were all part of the prophecy, as we are. They suffered wars, and disease and plagues. But at what point of the opening of the seals, are we? who am I to say, but God alone who knows the time and hour.
    I am careful to watch, I encourage you too my friend.
    Wildfire
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,940
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Because the Bible says so! I have this funny notion that what the Bible says is true.

    Of this I am again uncertain of your point.
    Are you saying that IF Jesus returned already, we don't need to spread the Gospel?

    Remember Wildfire, it's the "Everlasting Gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth"

    There is no "use by" or "expiration" date to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, It is eternal, without end, everlasting, and it's sole purpose is to be preached to them that dwell on the earth.

    How do you figure that we are to ever stop preaching what was given to be preached forever?
     
  4. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    What was told to the disciples immediately after they had seen Jesus ascend?????
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,940
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    The disciples were told that Jesus would return in like manner as He entered heaven, and in Acts 1:9, we are told that he entered heaven "Hidden from the eyes by a cloud".

    The angels didn't give the disciples any new Revelation. they did not tell the disciples anything Jesus didn't tell them first.

    Jesus said he would return in the coulds, the angels simply confirmed Jesus own words.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,940
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Bump
     
  7. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

    90
    +0
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    I see this "bump" every now and then. What the heck is it?!?!?!
     
  8. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

    90
    +0
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    Ooooohhhhhhhh ... I SEE!!! Bumps the thread up to the top of the list!!! And I thought Parousia70 would have something good to say ... :D
     

  9. Picture a man and his family in a ford truck going to the Pocono Mountains for a vacation. Everything is going just fine when their truck has a blow out on the left rear tire. The man gives all he has to keep the truck under control however nothing works and the truck flips over and over until it lands of the road.

    The man and his wife are badly huart and trapped in the truck so there small child looks for a phone to call for help :pray: The small child see a phone that is back up on the road and calls for help. The child tells the operator what happened and she said the police and emergency ambulance would be there soon.

    The child goes back to the truck and says help will be here soon. 20 minutes goes by and no police or emergency ambulance. A hour goes by and no police or emergency ambulance. 5 HOURS go by and no police or emergency ambulance.

    6 hours go by and no police or emergency ambulance and buy this time the "man and his wife are dead." When suddenly the child hears the sounds of sirens and squealing tires on the surface of the road. The child says with tears in his eyes to the police and emergency people "you said you were coming soon?"

    Then the police and emergency people all laught and said: That did not mean we were coming soon. We meant once we started out we would be coming soon. I think you get the idea. Jesus is God and He cannot lie or play word games as man (Hebrews 6:18)

    Jesus did indeed return soon just as he said he would. Just as that small child looked for help soon. So did the saints who were being trubled with tribulations by the undelieving Jews. They look for Jesus to return soon taking vengeance on them who troubling them. (2 Thessalonians 1:1-12) And that is not adding one word to the Bible.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,940
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Well (blushing), comming from someone of your stature, I take that as a compliment.
    Thanks!
     
  11. prodigal

    prodigal Member

    267
    +2
    Non-Denom
    Just to get this straight, you guys believe that Jesus was crucified, dead and buried, rose from the grave, ascended into heaven, took a seat at the right hand of God, and then in 70 AD, asked to be excused from the table and came back to earth and did what?

    "The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." Ps 110:1

    I love the image that verse conjures up. Jesus with his feet propped up on his enemies, reigning on the earth.

    "See, the Lord is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For with fire and with his sword the Lord will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the Lord." Isaiah 66:15,16

    If you are saying that this has happened already, then you are sorely mistaken. However, one verse of prophecy that you are helping to fulfill is: "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-- bringing seift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute." 2 Peter 2:1,2

    Also, if Jesus took his church away, how did the church continue? What about Timothy? Why was he not taken?
     
  12. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Well, not quite excused, it was all in God's plan and timing, for Jesus returned [not leaving them orphans] as He promised "to tHIS generation." -if you can believe Jesus, [I do]. Besides, what's a party without the guests :cool:

    That's the trouble with much [or most] of dispensationalism futurism -it relates more to fantastic imaginings than it does to scripture. The enemy that is under the feet of Christ is the separation of sin-death -He made reconciliation.

    Your quote from Isa 66 relates to the ending of the old covenant, being fulfilled in the new -typifing in prophetic language His judgment.

    Who said the Church was taken away??? That sounds more like a futurists idea. Did you know that as it was in the days Noah, so it was in Christ's Parousia -when judgment came it was the unrighteous that were taken out of the way -interesting thought hey. :wave:

    As for Timothy, not being a dispensational futurist he new he was in for the long haul -and wasn't waiting around for some mythical rapture whose inception is not even 200 year old.

    davo
     
  13. prodigal

    prodigal Member

    267
    +2
    Non-Denom
    Again, in 70 AD, Christ, according to heretical preterist views, came back and did what?
     
  14. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    I beg to differ on your heretical tag [especially since you seem not to know much about the "fulfilled view"]. That aside: Christ consumated what He established through the Cross i.e., salvation :clap:

    davo
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,940
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Heresey is indeed a strong charge.

    Do you have any evidence to support it?
     
  16. prodigal

    prodigal Member

    267
    +2
    Non-Denom
    I am sorry. Maybe heretical is too soft a term. How about apostate ? Of course there can be no end to this if you infer certain "truths" from a non-contextual point of view. I do not subscribe to man's views on scripture. Man can, and does, twist scripture, to get his desired effect.

    In the book of John, chapter 14, Jesus promises his disciples that he will come back for them after he goes to prepare a place for them. He then tells them again, "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. " John 14:18,19

    All of these guys he was talking to were martyrd, for their faith in God.

    In John 17, Jesus prays to God, "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray alo for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so thet the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave ;me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me ." John 17:13-23

    Ask yourself why Jesus would tell them that the world hated them and was going to kill them and then say, "I'll be right back!" It is called encouragement. The world may destroy our flesh, but praise God, Jesus has overcome the world. Even Jesus did not know when he would return, but by saying soon he covered the bases. How long does a man live? While we live in the flesh, we will have troubles, "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world ." John 16:33
     
  17. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +1
    I'm not a preterist...but prodigal...

    Aren't you(man) reading into Jesus' words and twisting scripture to get a desired result...there is no evidence that he was "encouraging" them by saying the Day of the Lord was coming soon...within their generation...

    And how, may I ask, did He cover His bases by giving them, as you seem to suggest, an abstract timetable for the Day of the Lord...Prophecy given to us by God, was done for one reason...to allow us to come unto Him...the abstractness you twist into it, does not allow that affect...

    You also seem to think that Jesus, after His ascension, did/does not know when that Day would be...but after reading Revelations how would one come to that conclusion...but, beside that point, Jesus definitely knew what signs and prerequisite's(sp) that were involved for that Day while he was on earth as flesh...

    If I were you I would step lightly on throwing around those words, because more often than not, we(me included) are just as guilty...
     
  18. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    Prodigal,

    Many people agree with you. Please read:
    The Allurement of Hymenaen Preterism:
    The Rise of "Dispensable Eschatology"
    By Jim West

    http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=index_esch.html

    The site is a real eye-opener to the truth about preterism:


    "Satanic Pride"

    The fifth reason for Hymanæn theology is Satanic pride, a desire to pass muster before men. Heretics love novelties. The pride in this case is not just opposing the resurrection theology of the Bible, but the craving to make a name for oneself--the desire to have the preeminence, that is, the spirit of Diotrephes ( 3 Jn. 9 ). The pride factor is particularly easy to spot in the Hymenæns, for they are obsessed with a resurrectionless preterism. It extends further than identifying oneself as a "preterist" on the guest registrar of the church. The Hymenæns are campaigning to "subvert" the Faith of others. Believing that they have discovered some new truth that has been hidden from the church for the last 2000 years, we can well understand their zeal. In Paul's last words to the elders at Ephesus, he wept, stating that after his departure, grievous wolves would enter in, and from even their own selves "shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" ( Ac. 20:30 ). Since Paul was writing to Timothy who was probably in Ephesus, we can identify Hymenæus and Philetus as two of these invaders."
     
  19. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Tsk, tsk, tsk. :( . The "truth" of that particular paragraph is just a heaping mass of generalizations, falsehoods, and propoganda. This isn't directed at you, Auntie, but Mr. West. It doesn't open anyone's eyes to the truth of preterism, but rather, it's just another sleepy article that weighs down the eyelids with much error.

    Truth that's been hidden for some 2000 years? Hmmm, dispensationalism and the majority of modern futurist thought comes to mind, eh? ;) Heck, every major futurist author that churns out another endtimes scenario claims they have figured out the apocolypse time-table that has been hidden for centuries.

    For a real "eye-opener" check out two other articles on the very same site:

    Matthew 24 (Part One.) http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol8/esch8-3.htmBy: Jack Van Deventer
    Van Deventer (in two parts) examines this hotly debated prophetic portion of scripture.

    Matthew 24 (Part Two.) http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol8/esch8-3.htm
    By: Jack Van Deventer
    Part two of Van Deventer's examination of Matthew 24.

    The study ends with this:

    "In summary, though it is often not taught from the pulpits, Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 24 and the parallel passages of the Olivet Discourse are very adequately explained in preterist fashion as God's holy judgment against unbelieving Israel in A.D. 70."

    Although the site does not support certain teachings in full-preterism, it does support partial-preterism (and it trounces dispensationalism).

    This last quote from the site is especially telling:

    "You don't often find scholarly books on eschatology in Christian book stores anymore. The booksellers are pushing "the world's going to end any moment" literature and have convinced bookstores into thinking that anything else is a departure from orthodox Christianity. These "chicken little" books are the prophetic equivalent of Christian romance novels: sensational, suspenseful, and highly questionable in terms of edification. Given the silliness of pop eschatology, I can hardly blame nonchristians for ridiculing those who profess Christ."



    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  20. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +1
    Hey Auntie...

    Mr. West seems to think that Matthew 24:1-34 is past...are you changing your toon on this...or do you just agree with his consistent preterist view and ignore what he said about the rest...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...