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where exactly did preterist beliefs orginate

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by gwyyn, Jun 6, 2002.

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  1. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    I was wondering when did the first preterist views orginate? Do you get all your evidence about the fulfillment of the first part of Revelations and Matthew 24 from Josephus?
     
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  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    The Preterist belief originated with Jesus and the apostles, all of whom taught that the 2nd coming would ocourr within the lifetime of the apostles generation.

    Preterism simply affirms that they were in fact correct in their unanimous teaching.
     
  3. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    yes but who came to the final conclusion that the AD 70 confirms the prophecy
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Jesus came to that final conclusion, and told His apostles about it 40 years earlier:

    Luke 21:20-22
    20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


    Preterism simply comes to the same conclusion Jesus did, by trusting in Him and affirming that He was, in fact, correct.
     
  5. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    I still don't understand why Jesus told them that every eye would see Him and yet no one seemed to see Him return at all. It doesn't make sense that He returned spiritually, when He made it clear, His return would be physical.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Isaiah 52:10a
    The Lord has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations;


    Mandy, Isaiah states here that Gods arm was seen by the "eyes" of all nations.

    When did this ocourr?

    Surely such a monumental global event of God's actual arm being seen by every eye of everyone of every nation would have been recorded in History.

    If, however, you believe this to be metaphore, what scriptuaral basis do you have for interprating "every eye shall see" in polar opposite fashion to "seen by the eyes of all nations"?

    I can find none.
     
  7. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    "OUCH! I don't care what planet you're from, that's gotta hurt!" :cry: --Star Wars: Episode I--The Phantom Menace
     
  8. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    LOL!

    I think you make a big mistake spiritualizing verses that are plainly literal. I believe that Jesus meant His return to be literal and physical, simply because He said He would be seen. Also every other verse that says He will be seen, Acts 1:11, Matt. 24:30, Mark 14:62, Rev. 1:7.


    Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:

    Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God.


    1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Mandy, are you saying Isaiah 52:10 is not plainly literal?
    Why not?

    As far as Job19:25 goes,It was fulfilled in Jesus first advent for Jesus the redeemer DID stand on earth in the last days. the Bible plainly says so:

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;


    On to Job 19:26:
    Here is a literal translation of Job 19:25-26:



    "For [or "Yet"] I know that my Kinsman-Redeemer [or "Avenger" or "Vindicator"] is living, and at last He shall arise [or "stand"] on the dust [or "earth"]. Even after they surround [or "destroy"] my skin, yet this: From [or "without"] my flesh I shall see God...." (Job 19:25-26)

    ...and at last He shall arise [or "stand"] on the dust [or "earth"]...


    In this statement, Job could have been prophesying of a time after his death when God would vindicate and deliver him. (Job 3:21-22; 6:8; 7:5-10,15-16,21; 14:14; 16:18; 17:1,13-16) Or Job could have been prophesying of a day within his lifetime when God would vindicate and deliver him. (Job 10:9; 13:15-21; 11:20-22; 23:10; 17:9; 23:10; 29:1-25; cf. Ps. 3:7) Either interpretation is possible.

    ...Even after they surround [or "destroy"] my skin....

    Who were "they?" "They" could have been the "worms" and "dust" that were "covering" Job's skin while he was yet alive, (Job 7:5) or they could have been the "worms" and "dust" of the grave. (Job 17:14; 21:26; 24:20) Or "they" could have been God's "troops," i.e., Job's accusers and former friends who were "encompassing" him and who could not, metaphorically speaking, get enough of his "flesh." (Job 10:17; 16:13; 19:12-20,22; 30:1-15; 31:31; Ps. 14:4; 27:2) Any of these interpretations is possible.

    ...From [or "without"] my flesh I shall see God...

    Here Job could have meant, "from the vantage point of my flesh," that it to say, "looking out from my flesh I shall see God." Or Job could have meant, "from outside of my flesh," that is, "free from my flesh I shall see God." Either interpretation is possible.

    In light of the above possible interpretations, there are four basic possibilities as to the meaning of Job's prophecy:

    1. Job expected to die from his afflictions, and to be delivered and vindicated at a non-fleshly resurrection at the Last Day.

    2. Job expected to die from his afflictions, and to be delivered and vindicated in Sheol.

    3. Job expected to be vindicated and delivered from all his afflictions, and to see God within his own lifetime, before he died, while still in his flesh.

    4. Job expected to die from his afflictions, and to be delivered and vindicated in a "resurrection of the flesh" at the Last Day.

    Due to the difficulties in translating this prophecy, expositors and translators have rendered Job's meaning in these four different lights. Which position one takes depends not simply on one's skill as a translator or on one's understanding of the overall meaning of the book of Job, but to an extent on one's personal eschatological presuppositions.

    All preterists reject #4, which option incidentally enjoys the least amount of scholarly support, and is the only option that contradicts the preterist view. (This option is also quickly eliminated when we see that Job explicitly denies a resurrection of the flesh in Job 14:7-12.)

    On to 1 John 3:2

    John saw Christs resurected flesh Body, yet still claimed he did not know what our body would be like, even though it would be Like Christs. This indaicates that The body Christ was resurrected in is not the Body that Christ had after the ascention. Christ was not resurrected in a glorified Body, His return was in His glorified body, the Glory of the father. Flesh no more.
     
  10. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    Preterism came from Jesus Christ?

    Please. Those who believe that statement should read the REVELATION of Jesus Christ, that was written for his servants, to <reveal> to them: the unfolding process of his return.

    To fear the Lord, is the beginning of having wisdom.

    Wildfire
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    actually it's "the Revelation of Jesus Christ, Which God gave him to show his servants what must shortly take place."

    Preterism came from Jesus Christ, who placed the fulfillment of "all things written" at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.(Luke 21:20-22), which is exactly what preterists believe.

    In fact, you could even say Jesus is a preterist!
     
  12. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    Parasuoi, you must understand what Jesus was revealing (and later to John in Revelations) at the mount of Olives, what would happen before his return. This phrase "what would shortly take place" has been instructed for us NOT to be taken literally.

    Please read Luke 12. It is important to understand the meaning behind the bridegroom and those who are watching for him.

    But of the times and seasons, brethren ye have no need that I write unto you.
    For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord cometh like a thief in the night.
    For when they say Peace and Security; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    But ye, brethren are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.
    Therefore let us NOT SLEEP as do others, but let us WATCH and be sober.

    Jesus tells us plainly:

    For the son of man (Jesus Christ) is as a man taking a FAR JOURNEY, (the allowance of time for repentance) who left his house, (earth) and gave authority to his servants, (follow my commandments) and to every man his work, (parable of talents) and commanded the porter to WATCH. (STAY ALERT/ for I am returning)

    WATCH ye therefore: for ye know not when the MASTER (Jesus) of the house cometh. At even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning.
    Lest coming suddenly he find YOU sleeping.
    And what I say unto you, I say unto all.
    WATCH.

    Before his death, Jesus was explaining to his disciples <why> he must leave them. This was a sorrowful time, as indicated in chapter 14.

    Yet, a little while, and the world SEETH ME NO MORE; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    AT THAT DAY ye shall know that I AM in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
    Ye have heard how I said unto you, I GO AWAY, and COME AGAIN unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go to the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
    And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
    Hereafter I WILL NOT TALK MUCH WITH YOU: for the <Prince of this world> COMETH (satan), and hath nothing in me.

    Wildfire
     
  13. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    I think the preterist view was originally from Josephus, and Josephus was not a believer in Christ. The seed of preterism was planted by a non-Christian.
     
  14. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    I know that they take alot of their history from Josephus and other early historians. Josephus was a Jew, who IMHO who rode the fence during the Jewish revolt. He tryed to get those in Galiee to revolt to no sucess, then after the whole ordeal he adopted a Roman name and lived among the Roman Empires.

    hmmm kinda makes me suspicious of the guy, not a Church historian, maybe just a historian.
     
  15. davo

    davo Member

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    "I think" hmmm -well not enough. Mate you guys talk some dribble :( -or should I say lies. If you bothered to do any study you'd know that like premillennialism, some of the Church Fathers held to preteristic views. Not that they're the authority -Scripture is, and "fulfilled eschatology" harmonises a lot more with the scriptures than does Dispensational Futurism -for futurism is as current as the latest headline -"keep an eye on .... could he be the anti-christ???" Well heck why not -just tell him to stand in line. Or, "have you seen those latest troop movements -could this be it??" :sigh: What an embassement.

    Is it any wonder that folk laugh at this stupidity. :(

    davo
     
  16. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    I have been to the preterist hompage and read where the historic information came from that gives you the insight of what historic data confurs with the scripture! I have done my research, however your views still don't settle with me, as I still believe the Jews are still God's chosen people. We all can argue our views till we are all blue in the face and suffer severe pain in our hands from typing messages back and forth.

    HOWEVER, I do not use my post to ridicule you and refer to you as an embarressment, nor do I tell you that you are stupid for your beliefs, so please be so kind and truly Christ like to refrain from doing this to others who disagree with you.

    Just a thought
     
  17. davo

    davo Member

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    Well, take a breath and sit down. My thoughts were generated from the quote I quoted -and the embassement and stupidity were not aimed at any person -I was talking about "futurism" -as for your view on the Jews, I didn't say anything in my post about them. Besides you are welcome to believe as you do :rolleyes:

    davo
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Really Wildflier? where is that instruction? Chapter and verse please.

    In actuality, every time a time limit is placed on a prophesy's fulfillement, it is given to be taken literally, by how time realtes to MAN, not Spiritually by how tome relates to God.
    Every time, without fail, always.
    The Bible NEVER uses prophetic time allagoricly or spiritually. NEVER.


    Wildflier, did you notice that in all the above examples, the person in question (all parables indicating Jesus) returns to "the exact same people he left!
    In none of the passages does He return to their descendants, and in ALL of the examples, he returns within the lifetime of the people he left.

    As you quoted:
    "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I GO AWAY, and COME AGAIN unto you."

    Could Jesus have made it any more clear?
    He used the personal pronoun YOU 3 times in that short sentance to drive home the point!

    Ye [the 1st century disciples] have heard how I said unto you [the 1st century disciples] I go away and come again unto you [the 1st century disciples]

    Any 2000+ year gap has been inserted by the mind of man, not the word of God.

    I'll stick to the word.
     
  19. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    Gwyyn, I have discovered the value of the "Ignore Button". I use it sparingly, only for those few who continually bash and attack personally. I occasionally check their posts to see if they have had a change in their attitude. Life is too short to waste time reading words designed to hurt.
     
  20. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    parasouia, Gods word and instructions were not limited to only his disciples. Why did he tell them about the kingdom of heaven? Why did he wash their feet before he was crucified? So that they would do unto others as I (Jesus) have done unto you. It was important for them to understand his teachings; and when he had accomplished that task, and his work was done, he was killed.
    The servant is not greater than the master, and greater is he (the Father) whom has sent me to you.
    They were chosen to teach the works of Jesus and to spread the Word of God.

    Feed my sheep.

    We are the sheep, the bible is the Word of God. The bible was not written and published to the world during their lifetime. The word of God could only be heard by the disciples when they taught to the crowds, by moving from place to place.
    When they began to write their letters, God kept their letters and words <safe> and they were translated into a book for US to read.
    Where is our comforter?
    Do you see, that Jesus was the master who was instructing his servants on how to teach us; all of us?
    We are the generation to come.

    Wildfire
     
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