Where does this stuff come from?

stevil · Oct 26, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
Ok....I think I see the problem. Old timey racist theories did usually involve an element of superiority. The modern usage of racism doesn't.

Our use of words is important if we are genuinely trying to explore ideas together.

Ana the Ist said:
Simple racial prejudice and discrimination qualify as racism.

yes, agree.

Ana the Ist said:
For example, if a guy who owns a store says he doesn't hire black people because they're all lazy....he may not hate black people, he may not feel superior to black people, but he is making a negative judgement about them based on race.

Claiming that blacks are lazy and hence less likely to be good employees is putting superiority onto non blacks (perhaps whites). This is blatant racism, not just systemic.

Ana the Ist said:
One of the many commonly accepted racist beliefs in the medical profession is that black people have a higher pain tolerance.

I have no idea as to the truth of the above statement. Whether it is a common belief or whether it is actually true. Have there been scientific studies on this?
I think it would be an interesting question and it would be interesting to know why this might be the case. I wouldn't call this racist.

Ana the Ist said:
That's not a belief that other races are superior....it's not born out of hatred....it's simply a prejudiced judgement based on race.

The word for that is racism.

Do we agree on that?

No, I don't agree that pointing out some differences equates to racism.
If we state that blacks are more likely to have darker skin than whites, this isn't a racist statement.
If we state that blacks are less likely to get skin cancer than whites, this isn't a racist statement.

If we hypothesis that blacks are more likely to be better at explosive sports e.g. sprinting, boxing etc because we often see them excel in these particular sports, I wouldn't consider this racist. I would consider it interesting to try to understand why.
But it would be racist to reject a young promising boxer just because he is white and assuming he will not be able to cut it against his black counterparts.

Trogdor the Burninator · Oct 26, 2020

Just loving all the "masks don't work" or "masks will kill you" conspirajunk in this thread. "Do your research!" they scream.

By all means - let me help.

LostMarbels · Oct 26, 2020

stevil said:
Your claim is that cloth masks are not good enough for a deadly highly contagious airbourne virus.

What is the difference between a mask and a respirator?

stevil said:
(without evidence, without support of anyone qualified)

I constantly provide proof, and was a licensed professional utilizing SCABA/PAPR & APR.

stevil said:
What needs to happen is to reduce the R0 which is the rate of spread.

What is your dosing at or below IDHL? Above IDHL? Dry or vapor? Organic? Inorganic? ...... (question... question... question...) What is your point of gross contamination during dosing? Mucus membranes a threat? Skin contact/decon? On and on....

We are supposedly discussing a virus that is so completely devastating you need to shut down normal societal life.

stevil · Oct 26, 2020

LostMarbels said:
What is the difference between a mask and a respirator?

What is your dosing at or below IDHL? Above IDHL? Dry or vapor? Organic? Inorganic? ...... (question... question... question...) What is your point of gross contamination during dosing? Mucus membranes a threat? Skin contact/decon? On and on....

Rather than trying to dazzle me with your grasp of Jargon, could we simply address the idea that if something has some effect then it might help reduce the rate of spread.

LostMarbels said:
We are supposedly discussing a virus that is so completely devastating you need to shut down normal societal life.

The approach is to reduce the R0. Not to protect each and every person within society.
A practical solution is required. You're not going to get everyone wearing full on contagion suits.

LostMarbels · Oct 26, 2020

To work with covid in a lab the CDC/OSHA requires a BSL-2 environment minimum. I touched on that here: X

Laboratory biosafety recommendations for SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19

Training programs (certifications) list it as a level C response.

The stuff that is supposedly walking around in peoples bodies requires level C PPE to even work with. But you think paper masks are going to save you?

Kentonio · Oct 26, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
Eesh...

Psychology’s Favorite Tool for Measuring Racism Isn’t Up to the Job

"A pile of scholarly work, some of it published in top psychology journals and most of it ignored by the media, suggests that the IAT falls far short of the quality-control standards normally expected of psychological instruments. The IAT, this research suggests, is a noisy, unreliable measure that correlates far too weakly with any real-world outcomes to be used to predict individuals’ behavior — even the test’s creators have now admitted as such. The history of the test suggests it was released to the public and excitedly publicized long before it had been fully validated in the rigorous, careful way normally demanded by the field of psychology. In fact, there’s a case to be made that Harvard shouldn’t be administering the test in its current form, in light of its shortcomings and its potential to mislead people about their own biases. There’s also a case to be made that the IAT went viral not for solid scientific reasons, but simply because it tells us such a simple, pat story about how racism works and can be fixed: that deep down, we’re all a little — or a lot — racist, and that if we measure and study this individual-level racism enough, progress toward equality will ensue."

There's no reliable way to measure "implicit bias". There's no significant connection between behavior and implicit bias.

Probably most importantly, being aware of implicit bias doesn't change anything.

Fun fact- You can easily "beat" the test by deliberately slowing down your responses to white people. Taa-daaaa....you're the least racist person ever!

1) It's not supposed to be a scientific experiment that predicts people's behaviour, and the idea that it was ever intended as such is laughable. It was a simplistic test that if taken honestly can reveal to the person being tested a subconscious bias. It doesn't rely on the answer at the end, the process is part of the result if you actually go into it with an open mind.
2) Of course there is a connection between behaviour and implicit bias, do you actually understand what implicit bias actually means?
3) Of course being aware of implicit bias means something. If you actually accept that you have implicit biases towards something you can monitor your own reactions in those situations and avoid negative reactive behaviour.
4) Fun fact, the only person who you would be cheating by cheating on the test is yourself! Seriously, its an internet based test with literally no consequences besides any you apply yourself. Why on earth would you cheat? Are you that insecure about your own potential implicit biases?

Kentonio · Oct 26, 2020

LostMarbels said:
To work with covid in a lab the CDC/OSHA requires a BSL-2 environment minimum. I touched on that here: X

View attachment 287221

Laboratory biosafety recommendations for SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19
View attachment 287224
Training programs (certifications) list it as a level C response.

The stuff that is supposedly walking around in peoples bodies requires level C PPE to even work with. But you think paper masks are going to save you?

No, of course they won't save you. If you're exposed to a heavy dose of the virus then you're going to catch it regardless. But what they can do is reduce a little the spread of the water droplets the virus is riding on, and reduce the chances of someone being exposed to a heavy dose in the first place.

Seriously man, how is this hard to understand? It's basic logic.

LostMarbels · Oct 26, 2020

stevil said:
Rather than trying to dazzle me with your grasp of Jargon, could we simply address the idea that if something has some effect then it might help reduce the rate of spread.

It is simple logic. The RO is just how infectious something is. But we have misinformation here. CV is large particle transmissible, not aerosol transmissible. Breathing, is not a large part of this viruses RO.

The particulates that do turn ariosloe are far too small to be blocked by either cloth or paper masks, and can still be inhaled by another person wearing a mask. It is far safer for me to walk into a store and "be avoided like the plague" since I do not have a mask on, then have people walking right up to me.

Washing/sanitizing your hands, taking a shower directly after returning from shopping, keeping people away from, social distancing....you will do far more than a mask can even pretend to do.

stevil said:
The approach is to reduce the R0. Not to protect each and every person within society.
A practical solution is required. You're not going to get everyone wearing full on contagion suits.

Wash your hands. Do not touch your face. Practice social distancing and you're good.

Speedwell · Oct 26, 2020

LostMarbels said:
That's awesome... maybe you should check out Florida. They have entire nudist communities that even have their own clothing optional Publix and other name brand stores.

But other than that... I see no reason you comment was made concerning wearing masks.

My reasons for resenting wearing pants as about as cogent as your reason for not wearing a mask.

LostMarbels · Oct 26, 2020

Kentonio said:
Seriously man, how is this hard to understand? It's basic logic.

There are too many intentionally misleading things for me to take this seriously. Literary... stay away from me. That's all you have to do. Keep your distance. It is not airborne.

LostMarbels · Oct 26, 2020

Speedwell said:
My reasons for resenting wearing pants as about as cogent as your reason for not wearing a mask.

Awsome... and we both have a right to that opinion, don't we?

stevil · Oct 26, 2020

LostMarbels said:
To work with covid in a lab the CDC/OSHA requires a BSL-2 environment minimum. I touched on that here: X

Training programs (certifications) list it as a level C response.

The stuff that is supposedly walking around in peoples bodies requires level C PPE to even work with. But you think paper masks are going to save you?

I would expect people working in labs to use the highest of precautions.

But this is a very different approach in protecting a few scientists in a lab vs protecting a society of hundreds of millions of people. It is nonsense to equate the two.

The goal in society is to implement a practical solution that the common people will do and is affordable and usable.

People cannot go about their daily lives in protective suits. A mask is much less obtrusive, is practical and works to reduce the R0 of this disease spreading throughout society.

To spread the idea that masks don't work and hence should not be bothered with, is highly irresponsible and will lead to more deaths in society than would otherwise have been the case.

LostMarbels · Oct 26, 2020

stevil said:
I would expect people working in labs to use the highest of precautions.

The point you are not getting the mask is a placebo for even the wrong kind of transmission the public faces.

stevil said:
The goal in society is to implement a practical solution that the common people will do and is affordable and usable.

Annnnd... done!

renniks · Oct 26, 2020

Speedwell said:
No, that's true. I don't understand. I'm fortunate in that my every move is not controlled by the powers that be.

Not yet anyway. Just most of them.

renniks · Oct 26, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
Freedom to what? Freedom to be ignorant? Freedom to die? Seems like a nihilistic notion of freedom.

I see you swallowed that bait and belived the popular narrative. That makes tightening the moose next time even easier. Don't worry, you won't feel a thing.

renniks · Oct 26, 2020

LostMarbels said:
And again... this is presented as a worldwide pandemic killing millions and possibly millions more. The minimum is level C PPE that is not available to the public in the quantities needed. The face masks are a placebo. All they are is a security blanket to make people feel like they are in control and have sort of safety. Paper and cloth face masks are not stopping anything. Anyone who routinely utilizes them is still at risk of contacting and/or spreading the virus.

Quite literally, the face masks just emotionally make people feel better about a situation they have no control over.

The overreach is in forcing others to take wear a mask even tho they recognize it as a placebo. In order to placate the sensibilities of others that believe in the placebo/token/talisman/favor.... as in: "if I wear this 'item' I am protected"

LostMarbels said:
No it's not... what threat response is polyester good for? Fire? Would it be better than nothing to misuse PPE's in a fire, or high heat situation?

You can breathe right through cotton. Try it when you can see your breath...um yeah, that's gonna stop a virus.

The SARS CoV-2 virus responsible for COVID-19 infection is 0.1 micron.
The CDC has published conflicting data on protection implied by cloth masks and/or surgical masks. Suffice it to say, the concern centers on a shortage of N-95 respirators and surgical masks during a pandemic, ensuring adequate supplies are available for health care workers on the frontline of this pandemic who require personal protection equipment.

Cloth masks are like 97 percent ineffective. But hey if it makes someone feel better...

stevil · Oct 26, 2020

LostMarbels said:
The point you are not getting the mask is a placebo for even the wrong kind of transmission the public faces.

The mask isn't a placebo at all.

What you are totally ignoring is the effectiveness in widespread use of masks to lower the rate of spread.
You won't even talk about this aspect, just keep on ignoring it.

stevil · Oct 26, 2020

renniks said:
You can breathe right through cotton. Try it when you can see your breath...um yeah, that's gonna stop a virus.

Noone is going to suggest people wear masks that stop them from breathing.

renniks said:
Cloth masks are like 97 percent ineffective. But hey if it makes someone feel better...

Yeah but, what are the actual experts saying, rather than random people on internet forums?

renniks · Oct 26, 2020

Speedwell said:
Yeah, I know how you feel. When I go out in public I have to wear pants just because of other peoples' feelings and if I don't I'll be arrested. It's an unreasonable infringement of my liberty.

Actually you don't... you just can't be exposing certain areas.

Yttrium · Oct 26, 2020

renniks said:
You can breathe right through cotton. Try it when you can see your breath...um yeah, that's gonna stop a virus.

The SARS CoV-2 virus responsible for COVID-19 infection is 0.1 micron.
The CDC has published conflicting data on protection implied by cloth masks and/or surgical masks. Suffice it to say, the concern centers on a shortage of N-95 respirators and surgical masks during a pandemic, ensuring adequate supplies are available for health care workers on the frontline of this pandemic who require personal protection equipment.

Cloth masks are like 97 percent ineffective. But hey if it makes someone feel better...

The virus particles are indeed small enough to go right through a cloth mask. But the particles are carried in water droplets, which are quite large enough to be mostly stopped by the masks.

If the virus particles could readily spread through the air outside of water droplets, then practically everybody in Tokyo would have the virus by now. The subways alone would transmit the virus like mad. But look, the Tokyo residents are all wearing masks.

Where does this stuff come from?

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