Where does morality come from?

[Kaon]

I have another very important question to ask of everyone.

I am a firm believer in God and believe that morality is certainly derived from Him and Him alone... that being said, however, I'm wondering how a person would debate this with someone like an Atheist? Atheists do not believe in God, so telling them that morality comes from God would probably not be all that convincing.

If morality comes from God and God only, then there would obviously be no other answer to tell anyone who was asking since the truth is objective and not just some kind of malleable or subjective reality. But, even still, how would someone discuss this point with an Atheist who clearly does not believe in God and seems highly unlikely to cave in to the idea?

Morality is for entities that die. Holy entities do not follow morality; they follow the Law.

We cannot follow the Law, but we cannot reconcile how we have been redeemed without being perfect(ed), so we make up degrees of the law to help us reign in our sin for a society.

Morality is, unfortunately, subjective. That is the spiel. If it was Truth, there would be no excuses, degrees or apologies.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If morality comes from God and God only, then there would obviously be no other answer to tell anyone who was asking since the truth is objective and not just some kind of malleable or subjective reality. But, even still, how would someone discuss this point with an Atheist who clearly does not believe in God and seems highly unlikely to cave in to the idea?

Righteousness is from God. Morality might only be of human origin, not of God.

God's Righteousness is clearly in Scripture, and in TORAH (His Instructions).

I think sticking with Righteousness instead of morality might help ?

i.e. stick with SCRIPTURE, for everything, as the one and only standard. SCRIPTURE is always TRUTH, and is UNchanging, and is UNchangeable.

Morality might come and go with the wind.

 

[Kaon]

Righteousness is from God. Morality might only be of human origin, not of God.

God's Righteousness is clearly in Scripture, and in TORAH (His Instructions).

I think sticking with Righteousness instead of morality might help ?

i.e. stick with SCRIPTURE, for everything, as the one and only standard. SCRIPTURE is always TRUTH, and is UNchanging, and is UNchangeable.

Morality might come and go with the wind.

It does come and go with the wind, and it is subjective and of pure human origin.

Morality gives rules and guidelines for mortals to behave for the purposes of extending life/postpone death. That is what it comes down to: a code to prolong life... for entities that die. Suffice it to say that morality is as deeply flawed as the humans that use it - even more so, because of how it can be romanticized, weaponized and bastardized in the form of some other philosophical monstrosity.

 

[Ken-1122]

The laws of logic apply inside the universe as we know it and not in all cases. For example, in the quantum realm it is possible for something to be in two places at once. Logic is predicated on the "rules" (for lack of a better term) that are consistent within this universe. They do not apply prior to plank time after the big bang.

So explain how outside the Universe as we know it; something can be "A" and not "A" at the same time?

 

[Belk]

So explain how outside the Universe as we know it; something can be "A" and not "A" at the same time?

That is my point. We do not know how anything works outside of our universe. We do not even know if "A" exists outside of our universe. We do know that all the laws and mathematics breaks down as we approach the big bang.

 

[Belk]

I´m not sure that this is what I meant to say. (I guess my point is more that logic determines what a a god (or anyone else) can be said (or not be said) to be able to do within the (assumed to be agreed upon) semantics of logic.
But maybe we can use an example for clarification?

Your point is sounding pretty esoteric. An example would be great.

 

[jayem]

If anyone is interested, Time magazine has a special issue out this week. It's a compilation of articles about current research into morality. It's becoming more and more apparent that a moral sense is instinctive in Homo sapiens. It can vary in strength among different individuals. And it can be modified by learning and acculturation. But at a basic level, morality is hard wired into our brains. It's as much a function of our biology as is our language ability, our stereoscopic vision, our manual dexterity, our upright posture, and our bipedal locomotion.

Doesn't the Bible say that the knowledge of good and evil has been written in each man's heart? Which is just a poetic way of saying that morality is instinctive. Religious believers say it came from God. Naturalists say it came from evolution. Seems to me that's the only real difference in our viewpoints.

 

[Kaon]

If anyone is interested, Time magazine has a special issue out this week. It's a compilation of articles about current research into morality. It's becoming more and more apparent that a moral sense is instinctive in Homo sapiens. It can vary in strength among different individuals. And it can be modified by learning and acculturation. But at a basic level, morality is hard wired into our brains. It's as much a function of our biology as is our language ability, our stereoscopic vision, our manual dexterity, our upright posture, and our bipedal locomotion.

Doesn't the Bible say that the knowledge of good and evil has been written in each man's heart? Which is just a poetic way of saying that morality is instinctive. Religious believers say it came from God. Naturalists say it came from evolution. Seems to me that's the only real difference in our viewpoints.

Knowledge of good and evil was a duality (false binity) that we exposed ourselves to without realizing its damage. The knowledge of good and evil made us judges - yet, because we would never live up to the standard of being a judge (i.e. perfection), we have a constant conflict between our mortal life that holds ego in esteem, and our spiritual existence which is dead, but ingrained in us. As said, He has put immortality on our hearts; that is a reminder of what we freely gave up, and why we have to settle for mortality.

It isn't just the "Tree of Knowledge" as if the Most High God was keeping Adam from knowledge (science) itself; the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil is what literally killed us, because (as we can see to this day), we are too immature as entities to judge good and evil. We think skin color and income determine how evil a person it...

That was not, and is not ingrained on our hearts. The truth is ingrained in our hearts by the promise of the New Covenant; we just ignore the connection to the Most High God, and call the parts of this conviction in which we resonate "morality". But, no spiritual entity follows morality; only humans. It is a human construct to help us maintain our species for as long as possible.

 

[Ken-1122]

That is my point. We do not know how anything works outside of our universe. We do not even know if "A" exists outside of our universe. We do know that all the laws and mathematics breaks down as we approach the big bang.

The Universe is defined as "all that exists". So going by that definition, there is no such a thing as "outside of our Universe". If something exists, it's within the Universe.
Universe - Wikipedia

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Universe is defined as "all that exists". So going by that definition, there is no such a thing as "outside of our Universe". If something exists, it's within the Universe.
Universe - Wikipedia

Universe is finite.


Yahuweh is infinite (in every way, or beyond all that we can ever think or imagine).

 

[Belk]

The Universe is defined as "all that exists". So going by that definition, there is no such a thing as "outside of our Universe". If something exists, it's within the Universe.
Universe - Wikipedia

All well and good except the Christians claim God exists outside of the universe. Obviously I am treating this as a hypothetical since I lack a belief in gods but within that framework the issue I see is that we can't know the rules for such a being.

 

[Ken-1122]

Universe is finite.


Yahuweh is infinite (in every way, or beyond all that we can ever think or imagine).

Where does the Universe end? By definition, if it exists, it is a part of the Universe.

 

[Ken-1122]

All well and good except the Christians claim God exists outside of the universe. Obviously I am treating this as a hypothetical since I lack a belief in gods but within that framework the issue I see is that we can't know the rules for such a being.

Kinda hard to defend a position you don't hold huh? But I was just responding to this idea of something existing outside the Universe. By definition that's impossible

 

[Belk]

Kinda hard to defend a position you don't hold huh?

It can be challenging, yes. Though I do hold the position that we lack knowledge of anything that might exist outside our universe and the rules that would be in effect.

But I was just responding to this idea of something existing outside the Universe. By definition that's impossible

I'll take the definition of a group that has barely managed to explore and explain a tiny fraction of existence with a grain of salt.

 

[Kaon]

Where does the Universe end? By definition, if it exists, it is a part of the Universe.

You can have a universe (really, its a semi-infinite dimension) tangent to another (semi-infinite) dimension. They are only a part of each other at one finite set of points.

 

[Ken-1122]

It can be challenging, yes. Though I do hold the position that we lack knowledge of anything that might exist outside our universe and the rules that would be in effect.

How can something exist outside of "all that exists"?

 

[Belk]

How can something exist outside of "all that exists"?

How can we claim to know "All that exists"?

 

[quatona]

That is my point. We do not know how anything works outside of our universe. We do not even know if "A" exists outside of our universe. We do know that all the laws and mathematics breaks down as we approach the big bang.

"A" (as in Aristotelean logic) doesn´t even exist in this universe. It´s mental abstraction that doesn´t point to anything in particular. Logic determines what may or may not be said within the formal system of binary language without this language getting meaningless. Very useful, yet not a representation of reality but of a certain way of thinking.

 

[Ken-1122]

How can we claim to know "All that exists"?

Nobody makes that claim. As a matter of fact, science claims to know approx. 4% of the Universe, the other 96% they have no clue about. But not knowing the entirety of the Universe doesn't prevent us from giving it a name.

 

[stevil]

How can we claim to know "All that exists"?

In general I find that atheists are great at accepting a position of "I don't know". It is a satisfactory answer especially if the data is not readily available and the conclusions have not been thoroughly and critically tested.

That's why the scientific method exists, its a method of discovery. If all was known then you wouldn't need a method of discovery.