Where does morality come from?

[Ken-1122]

Exception: parents in nature will sacrifice for their young, that is actually instinctual love. That is not what I am talking about, I am talking about loving strangers, sacrificially, even loving one's enemy. I don't see a giraffe, stick it's neck out to the lion, saying eat me, I know your hungry.

I've never seen a human do that either.

again there is no example of self sacrificial love, altruism is not self sacrificial, but a more general form of caring for others. Dogs and cats can care for others, and love and respect their owners. But if they had the choice of eating, or giving their food to another of the pack, they will eat first. I don't see my dogs sharing their food, and waiting for the other to eat first, they eat as fast as they can before the other dog get's their food. But humans are not that way, there are thousands of food charities that well document that low to medium income people give more than wealthy individuals. This shows self sacrificial love. You will see people who don't have much money giving to the poor all the time.

Humans are more intelligent than animals. So when we love each other, we are able to do it at a much higher level, and when we hate each other; we do that at a much greater level as well. Yeah; animals don't set up charities, and other safety nets for those less fortunate than us out of love, but you also don't see them committing the atrocities of Mao, Hitler, Stalin, or Amin; killing millions out of hatred either.

 

[Belk]

again there is no example of self sacrificial love, altruism is not self sacrificial, but a more general form of caring for others. Dogs and cats can care for others, and love and respect their owners. But if they had the choice of eating, or giving their food to another of the pack, they will eat first. I don't see my dogs sharing their food, and waiting for the other to eat first, they eat as fast as they can before the other dog get's their food. But humans are not that way, there are thousands of food charities that well document that low to medium income people give more than wealthy individuals. This shows self sacrificial love. You will see people who don't have much money giving to the poor all the time.

Seriously? You have never seen shows that document parental animals sacrificing themselves for offspring?

 

[createdtoworship]

I've never seen a human do that either.


Humans are more intelligent than animals. So when we love each other, we are able to do it at a much higher level, and when we hate each other; we do that at a much greater level as well. Yeah; animals don't set up charities, and other safety nets for those less fortunate than us out of love, but you also don't see them committing the atrocities of Mao, Hitler, Stalin, or Amin; killing millions out of hatred either.

Seriously? You have never seen shows that document parental animals sacrificing themselves for offspring?

yes parents sacrificing themselves is a instinctual pattern(that is the exception, but non parents don't show love in nature, not sacrificial love, the real love). You don't see dogs for example sharing with other dogs of the same pack. Humans however will sacrifice for each other. Elephants have a large brain than humans, yet you don't see them showing sacrificial love for each other. So it's not about intelligence. Dolphins they say are about as intelligent as humans, yet they don't show sacrificial love for others of the same pack either.

 

[Ken-1122]

yes parents sacrificing themselves is a instinctual pattern(that is the exception, but non parents don't show love in nature, not sacrificial love, the real love). You don't see dogs for example sharing with other dogs of the same pack. Humans however will sacrifice for each other. Elephants have a large brain than humans, yet you don't see them showing sacrificial love for each other. So it's not about intelligence. Dolphins they say are about as intelligent as humans, yet they don't show sacrificial love for others of the same pack either.

Dolphins aren't nearly as intelligent as humans, they're only intelligent when compared to other animals. But as I said, you won't find animals capible of love or hate to the extent of humans; intelligence has everything to do with it.

 

[createdtoworship]

Dolphins aren't nearly as intelligent as humans, they're only intelligent when compared to other animals. But as I said, you won't find animals capible of love or hate to the extent of humans; intelligence has everything to do with it.

you would have to prove that sacrificial love takes more intelligence, and you can't.

kids can be sacrificial.

and the other comment you made was also in error.
This article says dolphins share similar brain size as humans:

Dolphins have ‘human-like’ societies...but are held back by a lack of opposable thumbs, say scientists

 

[Belk]

yes parents sacrificing themselves is a instinctual pattern(that is the exception, but non parents don't show love in nature, not sacrificial love, the real love).

Please tell me the characteristics by which I can tell if an action is "real love".

You don't see dogs for example sharing with other dogs of the same pack.

Yes, I do. I have seen this behavior in both dogs and cats.

Humans however will sacrifice for each other. Elephants have a large brain than humans, yet you don't see them showing sacrificial love for each other. So it's not about intelligence. Dolphins they say are about as intelligent as humans, yet they don't show sacrificial love for others of the same pack either.

I do not spend large amounts of time with these animals so I can not say what they do or do not. What is your expertise with these animals that I should find your claims definitive?

 

[createdtoworship]

Please tell me the characteristics by which I can tell if an action is "real love".



Yes, I do. I have seen this behavior in both dogs and cats.



I do not spend large amounts of time with these animals so I can not say what they do or do not. What is your expertise with these animals that I should find your claims definitive?

Altruism exists in animals but no more than instinct needs. You see sharing amongst animals but not sacrificial sharing among animals (that are not parents and children). That is the point. love isn't love if it's not sacrificial. A self centered love can be debated if it is true love at all. So we are talking about sacrificial love among animals and I fail to see any examples of this in nature. I see for example a wolf pack going in for a kill and them taking their fill of the food, then perhaps taking food back or at least guiding the others to the food (after they themselves have eaten first). what I don't see is wolves for example letting others of the pack eat first, and in a way that means they won't get enough food. But I do see that in animal parents, but I have repeatedly said that that is the one exception. Human beings on the other hand have been proven to give to charity even more so on a poverty level and on a middle income level than the rich. People who are low income understand the pitfalls of low income and have pity on those who are poorer than themselves, this sacrificial love is unique among humans. Christians have love for even their enemies. That means christians in sudan that are being persecuted by islamic militants, loving and praying for their persecutors salvation and all the while being polite and courteous. There is one story of elizabeth elliot, a wife of a missionary who was killed on a mission in africa among a violent tribe. She went back and witnessed to them, many of them were converted to christianity later. You can read about her testimony online in many places. So sacrificial love is unique to humans and even more so unique and more common in christianity. This flow of love rationally leads back to the God of christianity, not instinct or evolution.

 

[Ken-1122]

you would have to prove that sacrificial love takes more intelligence, and you can't.

I said nothing about “sacrificial love”, I said intelligence allows humans to love to a greater degree, and it allows them to hate to a greater degree.

kids can be sacrificial.

So can animals. There are countless stories of dogs risking their lives for their human friends; didn’t sacrificial love lead to “old yeller’s” demise? And humans have been known to risk their lives for their dog friends as well.

and the other comment you made was also in error.
This article says dolphins share similar brain size as humans:

I said nothing about brain size, I said intelligence. Remember humans train dolphins for our recreation and use, they don’t train us. We train elephants, horses, and countless other animals on land. How many animals in the sea do you see trained by dolphins? If an alien from another planet came to earth, do you think dolphins would care? Do you think humans would care?

Dolphins have ‘human-like’ societies...but are held back by a lack of opposable thumbs, say scientists

I didn’t see any part of the article that suggested dolphins are at the same intelligent level as humans; did I miss something?

If Dolphins were as intelligent as humans, they would build machines to compensate for their lack of ability; just like humans do. C’mon! You can’t seriously be implying dolphins are any where near the level of humans are you?

 

[Kylie]

again there is no example of self sacrificial love, altruism is not self sacrificial, but a more general form of caring for others. Dogs and cats can care for others, and love and respect their owners. But if they had the choice of eating, or giving their food to another of the pack, they will eat first. I don't see my dogs sharing their food, and waiting for the other to eat first, they eat as fast as they can before the other dog get's their food. But humans are not that way, there are thousands of food charities that well document that low to medium income people give more than wealthy individuals. This shows self sacrificial love. You will see people who don't have much money giving to the poor all the time.

Your experiences are statistically insignificant. Just because your dogs don't do it, doesn't mean that no animal does it.

Exception: parents in nature will sacrifice for their young, that is actually instinctual love. That is not what I am talking about, I am talking about loving strangers, sacrificially, even loving one's enemy. I don't see a giraffe, stick it's neck out to the lion, saying eat me, I know your hungry. Yet I see christian folk forgiving and loving enemies all the time.

sacrificial love, is obviously from above, and from God- as that is the only option. It does not naturally occur in nature.

Except that it does, and you gave an example of it.

How does it feel when you disprove your own argument?

 

[Belk]

Altruism exists in animals but no more than instinct needs. You see sharing amongst animals but not sacrificial sharing among animals (that are not parents and children). That is the point. love isn't love if it's not sacrificial. A self centered love can be debated if it is true love at all. So we are talking about sacrificial love among animals and I fail to see any examples of this in nature. I see for example a wolf pack going in for a kill and them taking their fill of the food, then perhaps taking food back or at least guiding the others to the food (after they themselves have eaten first). what I don't see is wolves for example letting others of the pack eat first, and in a way that means they won't get enough food. But I do see that in animal parents, but I have repeatedly said that that is the one exception. Human beings on the other hand have been proven to give to charity even more so on a poverty level and on a middle income level than the rich. People who are low income understand the pitfalls of low income and have pity on those who are poorer than themselves, this sacrificial love is unique among humans. Christians have love for even their enemies. That means christians in sudan that are being persecuted by islamic militants, loving and praying for their persecutors salvation and all the while being polite and courteous. There is one story of elizabeth elliot, a wife of a missionary who was killed on a mission in africa among a violent tribe. She went back and witnessed to them, many of them were converted to christianity later. You can read about her testimony online in many places. So sacrificial love is unique to humans and even more so unique and more common in christianity. This flow of love rationally leads back to the God of christianity, not instinct or evolution.

Again I will ask, what is your expertise with these animals that we should find your lack of observing these things definitive?

 

[createdtoworship]

I said nothing about “sacrificial love”, I said intelligence allows humans to love to a greater degree, and it allows them to hate to a greater degree.

you need to prove this. or at least provide evidence for it. Just because one is more intelligent does not mean they love more. Stupid people can love as much or moreso than intelligent people.

So can animals. There are countless stories of dogs risking their lives for their human friends; didn’t sacrificial love lead to “old yeller’s” demise? And humans have been known to risk their lives for their dog friends as well.

a human/dog relationship is sort of like a parent child relationship, so that does not count. Can you provide an example that is not parent/child related. No, and that is my whole premise.

I said nothing about brain size, I said intelligence. Remember humans train dolphins for our recreation and use, they don’t train us. We train elephants, horses, and countless other animals on land. How many animals in the sea do you see trained by dolphins? If an alien from another planet came to earth, do you think dolphins would care? Do you think humans would care?

so you don't think that the fact that apes are more intelligent that this is an evidence that humans evolved from apes? You cannot use brain size as a sign for intelligence in one argument, and then deny that same argument when you dislike it.

I didn’t see any part of the article that suggested dolphins are at the same intelligent level as humans; did I miss something?

the social structure of dolphins is similar to humans. The point is that they are very similar in intelligence, or the point of the article would be null and void.

If Dolphins were as intelligent as humans, they would build machines to compensate for their lack of ability; just like humans do. C’mon! You can’t seriously be implying dolphins are any where near the level of humans are you?

then you disagree with that evolutionary biologist.

 

[createdtoworship]

Your experiences are statistically insignificant. Just because your dogs don't do it, doesn't mean that no animal does it.

I gave several examples, sacrificial love was only one example you can't replicate in nature. What about loving one's enemies. Try to find that in the law of the wild.

Except that it does, and you gave an example of it.

How does it feel when you disprove your own argument?

parental instinct is simply herd instinct for the survival of the pack. It's sacrificial because it has to be. I am talking about sacrificing when you don't have to do it. But the point is, that only in families do you see self sacrificial love in animals. You don't see it in nature in general. Nor do you see loving one's enemies. So I would love to talk to you more about this. But you really have no evidence that the moral law is natural. It is obviously supernatural.

 

[Kylie]

I gave several examples, sacrificial love was only one example you can't replicate in nature. What about loving one's enemies. Try to find that in the law of the wild.

Given the way gay people, refugees and the poor are treated these days, I'm not even sure Humans do this.

parental instinct is simply herd instinct for the survival of the pack. It's sacrificial because it has to be. I am talking about sacrificing when you don't have to do it. But the point is, that only in families do you see self sacrificial love in animals. You don't see it in nature in general. Nor do you see loving one's enemies. So I would love to talk to you more about this. But you really have no evidence that the moral law is natural. It is obviously supernatural.

You haven't studied animals much, have you?

 

[createdtoworship]

Given the way gay people, refugees and the poor are treated these days, I'm not even sure Humans do this.



You haven't studied animals much, have you?

so here you have self refuting concepts. Your first comment says that not even humans have self sacrificial love, then in your second comment you imply that animals do have self sacrificial love.

 

[Ken-1122]

you need to prove this. or at least provide evidence for it.

I already provided examples of people committing evil and expressing hatred at a level no animal ever has, and you provided examples of humans expressing love at a level no animal has. What other type of evidence are you looking for?

Just because one is more intelligent does not mean they love more. Stupid people can love as much or moreso than intelligent people.

Intelligence is generally defined as the ability to acquire knowledge, retain it, and apply it to your life experiences. Even the most stupid of people are able to accomplish this far better than any animal, they still have the ability to acquire and apply knowledge this way and this ability makes them better at expressing love, hatred, or any other emotion.

a human/dog relationship is sort of like a parent child relationship, so that does not count.

I disagree! Dog owner/dog relationship is not equal to parent/child, it is equal to a friend relationship.

Can you provide an example that is not parent/child related. No, and that is my whole premise.

About a week ago, I saw a bunch of crows circling an intersection making a lot of noise, when I approached, I went around the circling birds, and noticed an injured crow that had gotten hit by a car. There was at least a half dozen crows risking their lives circling this way, I doubt this was a parent/child relationship.

so you don't think that the fact that apes are more intelligent that this is an evidence that humans evolved from apes?

The type of Ape humans (Monkey’s, modern apes, Gorilla’s, etc) evolved from have not been around for millions of years. Just like Tigers, lepords, and lions are called cats, the type of cat they evolved from haven’t been around for millions of years either.

You cannot use brain size as a sign for intelligence in one argument, and then deny that same argument when you dislike it.

I never said anything about brain size, you are the one who keeps bringing that into the picture.

the social structure of dolphins is similar to humans.

Having a social structure similar to us doesn’t mean they are as intelligent as us.

The point is that they are very similar in intelligence, or the point of the article would be null and void.

Perhaps it means you have misunderstood the article; believing it is saying something it is not.

then you disagree with that evolutionary biologist.

No, I disagree with you.

 

[createdtoworship]

I already provided examples of people committing evil and expressing hatred at a level no animal ever has, and you provided examples of humans expressing love at a level no animal has. What other type of evidence are you looking for?


Intelligence is generally defined as the ability to acquire knowledge, retain it, and apply it to your life experiences. Even the most stupid of people are able to accomplish this far better than any animal, they still have the ability to acquire and apply knowledge this way and this ability makes them better at expressing love, hatred, or any other emotion.

providing examples of evil in humanity does not nullify the good found in humanity, that is the fallacy of poisoning the well. The fact that even mentally ill humans (not much smarter than elephants or dolphins) can love sacrificially, shows you that humanity has higher morality dis-regardless of intelligence.

I disagree! Dog owner/dog relationship is not equal to parent/child, it is equal to a friend relationship.

well you would be plain wrong according to most animal owners and lovers.

About a week ago, I saw a bunch of crows circling an intersection making a lot of noise, when I approached, I went around the circling birds, and noticed an injured crow that had gotten hit by a car. There was at least a half dozen crows risking their lives circling this way, I doubt this was a parent/child relationship.

what were they sacrificing? packs protect their own, that is not the sacrificial love I am talking about, I am talking about doing something that sometimes goes against instinct. Like loving enemies.

The type of Ape humans (Monkey’s, modern apes, Gorilla’s, etc) evolved from have not been around for millions of years. Just like Tigers, lepords, and lions are called cats, the type of cat they evolved from haven’t been around for millions of years either.

so you don't deny what I said. The fact that you believe brain size makes apes a good candidate for human evolutionary tree's reveal that you do believe brain size is equal to intelligence. So like I said you can use whatever rule you wish, but you must apply the same rule to both sides, those you disagree with, as well as those you agree with.

I never said anything about brain size, you are the one who keeps bringing that into the picture.

they are correlated, obviously.

Having a social structure similar to us doesn’t mean they are as intelligent as us.

very similar in intelligence is what the evolutionary biologist was saying, so again you are disagree with them, not me.

No, I disagree with you.

and an evolutionary biologist that wrote the article.

 

[Ken-1122]

providing examples of evil in humanity does not nullify the good found in humanity, that is the fallacy of poisoning the well.

I made no attempt to nullify the good of humanity, I agreed with you remember? I was just pointing out the bad exists also.

The fact that even mentally ill humans (not much smarter than elephants or dolphins) can love sacrificially, shows you that humanity has higher morality dis-regardless of intelligence.

How do you know of the extent elephants or dolphins are able to love? Have you studied them? And how many retarded people do you know of who express what you call “sacrificial love”? (since that seems to be your barometer of judging love)

well you would be plain wrong according to most animal owners and lovers.

I am a dog owner and lover, yet I would be far more hurt if my dog died than my child. That goes for all the animal lovers I know.

what were they sacrificing? packs protect their own, that is not the sacrificial love I am talking about, I am talking about doing something that sometimes goes against instinct. Like loving enemies.

What type of enemies are you talking about? Enemies within the pack? If so, what do you base this on? What data do you have that animals have enemies within the pack and don’t sacrifice their safety for those pack members?

so you don't deny what I said.

You implied humans evolved from modern apes; they don’t.

The fact that you believe brain size makes apes a good candidate for human evolutionary tree's

I never said that. And there you go bringing in brain size; where are you getting this stuff? Remember, humans only use a small portion of their brains for thinking; when it comes to brains, size isn’t everything.

reveal that you do believe brain size is equal to intelligence.

Again; brain size does NOT equal intelligence; why are you trying to insist that it is?

they are correlated, obviously.

Just because you keep saying this does not make it true. What do you base this on?

very similar in intelligence is what the evolutionary biologist was saying, so again you are disagree with them, not me.

I am having a conversation with YOU, not some biologist. If you can’t back up somebody else's position, don’t quote them

and an evolutionary biologist that wrote the article.

True, and you misunderstood the article; believing it meant something it does not.

 

[createdtoworship]

I made no attempt to nullify the good of humanity, I agreed with you remember? I was just pointing out the bad exists also.

How do you know of the extent elephants or dolphins are able to love? Have you studied them? And how many retarded people do you know of who express what you call “sacrificial love”? (since that seems to be your barometer of judging love)

sir I said they don't love, you said they do. So now prove it.

I am a dog owner and lover, yet I would be far more hurt if my dog died than my child. That goes for all the animal lovers I know.

nearly all the people I know, good or bad, would disagree with you on this point. I believe you are overwhelmingly wrong here.

What type of enemies are you talking about? Enemies within the pack? If so, what do you base this on? What data do you have that animals have enemies within the pack and don’t sacrifice their safety for those pack members?

I was thinking only of strong enemies, not mere disagreements, but arch rivals. That proves the point more.

You implied humans evolved from modern apes; they don’t.

humans as we know did not evolve from any ape or monkey. The exact science is that ape like creatures evolved into human like creatures.

Again; brain size does NOT equal intelligence; why are you trying to insist that it is?

most scientists would disagree with you on this, a simple google search for brain size relating to higher intelligence is apt here.

Just because you keep saying this does not make it true. What do you base this on?

the article scope

I am having a conversation with YOU, not some biologist. If you can’t back up somebody else's position, don’t quote them

our opinions don't matter, citing official sources is better.

True, and you misunderstood the article; believing it meant something it does not

.we are all entitled to our opinion. But simply reading the scope is key here.

 

[Ken-1122]

sir I said they don't love, you said they do. So now prove it.

Check out this youtube video of various dogs and cats expressing love and sorrow for other dogs and cats when killed.

nearly all the people I know, good or bad, would disagree with you on this point. I believe you are overwhelmingly wrong here.

Did they tell you they care equally for their dog as they do their children? Or is this another one of your assumptions? I cannot speak for your experiences, only mine.

I was thinking only of strong enemies, not mere disagreements, but arch rivals. That proves the point more.

Again; enemies WITHIN THE PACK? Or enemies outside of the pack? And what evidence do you have that animals actually have what could be classified as “arch rivals”?

humans as we know did not evolve from any ape or monkey. The exact science is that ape like creatures evolved into human like creatures.

Gorilla's, monkey's and modern Ape's, evolved from this ape like creature as well. And um... what do modern scientists call that original ape like creature? (hint; 3 letter word starts with the letter A, and ends with P.

most scientists would disagree with you on this, a simple google search for brain size relating to higher intelligence is apt here.

Didn’t you point out earlier that elephants have larger brains than humans but are not nearly as intelligent? Humm… looks like you kicked your own a$$ on that one.

the article scope

our opinions don't matter, citing official sources is better.

.we are all entitled to our opinion. But simply reading the scope is key here.

The article scope does not imply dolphins are as intelligent as humans, if it did you would have been able to point to where it is implied this when I asked you. I think you simply misunderstood what the article.

 

[createdtoworship]

Check out this youtube video of various dogs and cats expressing love and sorrow for other dogs and cats when killed.

Did they tell you they care equally for their dog as they do their children? Or is this another one of your assumptions? I cannot speak for your experiences, only mine.


Again; enemies WITHIN THE PACK? Or enemies outside of the pack? And what evidence do you have that animals actually have what could be classified as “arch rivals”?


Gorilla's, monkey's and modern Ape's, evolved from this ape like creature as well. And um... what do modern scientists call that original ape like creature? (hint; 3 letter word starts with the letter A, and ends with P.


Didn’t you point out earlier that elephants have larger brains than humans but are not nearly as intelligent? Humm… looks like you kicked your own a$$ on that one.


The article scope does not imply dolphins are as intelligent as humans, if it did you would have been able to point to where it is implied this when I asked you. I think you simply misunderstood what the article.

but do you see dogs grieving over enemies. Not a cat that is was raised with as that is a family unit. But for example a neighbor cat you hurts himself jumping over the fence, so you see a dog grieving for them? This proves my point that true self sacrificial and not self serving love does not exist in the animal world. (sorry I don't have time to reply to your whole post, I am busy with everything right now).