Where did the concept of 'Celibacy' come from?

[SoldierOfTheKing]

In the ante-Nicene years of the church, single men were typically chosen as bishops because bishops were very likely to be martyred; to put a family man in that position was to run a serious risk of making his wife a widow and his children orphans.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Your supposed married popes shot flopped but you were able to score on the rebound. Nice touch.

What does that mean?

 

[civilwarbuff]

In the ante-Nicene years of the church, single men were typically chosen as bishops because bishops were very likely to be martyred; to put a family man in that position was to run a serious risk of making his wife a widow and his children orphans.

And the evidence of this is where?....certainly not in scripture.....

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

And the evidence of this is where?....certainly not in scripture.....

Are you asking for historical evidence that leaders of the Christian church were often martyred?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Are you asking for historical evidence that leaders of the Christian church were often martyred?

No, that single men were selected for that reason.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I believe that celibacy should be decision made by an individual between the individual and God alone. Anyone can choose to remain celibate, including protestants. I don't think that a religious institution has the authority to mandate celibacy as a requirement for priesthood or the convent. I believe that celibacy is honorable, however, priest and nuns should be free to marry at their own choosing or remain celibate at their own choosing.

 

[tz620q]

Your supposed married popes shot flopped but you were able to score on the rebound. Nice touch.

Yes, but it was an offensive rebound.

 

[tz620q]

I believe that celibacy should be decision made by an individual with God alone. Anyone can choose to remain celibate, including protestants. I don't think that a religious institution has the authority to mandate celibacy as a requirement for priesthood or the convent. I believe that celibacy is honorable, however, priest and nuns should be free to marry at their own choosing or remain celibate at their own choosing.

You seem to be someone who has thought deeply about a topic before forming an opinion and not just adopting knee jerk opinions from whoever they listen to on TV or radio. So I salute you for this.

Believe me, within Catholicism this has been a point of contention throughout history. The requirement has changed over time and over region. For instance, when going into Ireland, the church decided not to require celibacy of the priests there at that time. Looking at this historically though, the advantages and disadvantages of having celibate versus non-celibate priests and nuns have shown through. The Roman Rite church decided to make celibacy a discipline and not a doctrine, therefore changeable. At the time this decision was made, the world was in a feudal system where each lord ruled about 6 miles on either side of their castle and between was no man's land. There was little control over large areas because of problems in communications and the inability to exert any force on someone who disobeyed. This affected the priesthood because they rarely saw their bishop and hardly had any contact with the Pope. Also during these centuries there were many investiture controversies going on. The Kings, Princes, etc. wanted to be able to select their bishops and the Pope saw that as his right. So often a priest was selected by a bishop who was selected by a king. These selections were mainly political and so the religious credentials of the candidate were secondary to what family he had come from. Priests were often married with children and used the church coffers to support their families, possibly to the detriment of their church and congregation. Also there was a problem where priests tried to leave their parish to their children. The Roman Rite of the Catholic Church saw these problems as caused by a married priesthood and decided that a celibate priesthood would avoid them.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It was a joke not to be taken seriously. Hence the "sarcasm alert". My point was that we are getting off topic and I am trying to get it back on topic.

I didn't see it. Sorry, when you say sarcasm and then what followed, I just didn't get it. Also didn't get the 'my friends' idiom. Sorry busy week, with travel and away from home. So I was grumpy. Mea Culpa!

 

[Root of Jesse]

You seem to be someone who has thought deeply about a topic before forming an opinion and not just adopting knee jerk opinions from whoever they listen to on TV or radio. So I salute you for this.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, regarding his deep thought. Regarding the choice priests or nuns make, they DO have a choice. That choice is to be a priest or nun, or not. If they want to be, the requirements are these...poverty, chastity, obedience. If they search deep and cannot meet the requirement, they are free to serve in other ways. I'm speaking as one who wanted to serve the Church as a deacon, and wasn't accepted based on a random age requirement. I resented this at first, but I still serve the Church in a really more fulfilling capacity.

Believe me, within Catholicism this has been a point of contention throughout history. The requirement has changed over time and over region. For instance, when going into Ireland, the church decided not to require celibacy of the priests there at that time. Looking at this historically though, the advantages and disadvantages of having celibate versus non-celibate priests and nuns have shown through. The Roman Rite church decided to make celibacy a discipline and not a doctrine, therefore changeable. At the time this decision was made, the world was in a feudal system where each lord ruled about 6 miles on either side of their castle and between was no man's land. There was little control over large areas because of problems in communications and the inability to exert any force on someone who disobeyed. This affected the priesthood because they rarely saw their bishop and hardly had any contact with the Pope. Also during these centuries there were many investiture controversies going on. The Kings, Princes, etc. wanted to be able to select their bishops and the Pope saw that as his right. So often a priest was selected by a bishop who was selected by a king. These selections were mainly political and so the religious credentials of the candidate were secondary to what family he had come from. Priests were often married with children and used the church coffers to support their families, possibly to the detriment of their church and congregation. Also there was a problem where priests tried to leave their parish to their children. The Roman Rite of the Catholic Church saw these problems as caused by a married priesthood and decided that a celibate priesthood would avoid them.

Amen. Great explanation.

 

[now faith]

Here's some good news for those who cannot contain, as Paul said.


LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - As it stands now, Catholic priests take a vow of celibacy and cannot be married. The Catholic church simply does not accept divorce, and anyone divorced, who then remarries or starts a sexual relationship with a new person, is committing adultery under Catholic law.

"He said, these were his priorities as Pope. The first of all is to change the rules for divorced couples," claims Crespo on his conversation with Francis. "The second was to eliminate the law of celibacy. He said it was not part of the doctrine of the church. It was started more than 1,000 years ago by a pope, and he considers it archaic, an antiquity which needs to be reconsidered."

"He thinks God made everyone to live in family, including priests."

 

[Erose]

Here's some good news for those who cannot contain, as Paul said.


LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - As it stands now, Catholic priests take a vow of celibacy and cannot be married. The Catholic church simply does not accept divorce, and anyone divorced, who then remarries or starts a sexual relationship with a new person, is committing adultery under Catholic law.

"He said, these were his priorities as Pope. The first of all is to change the rules for divorced couples," claims Crespo on his conversation with Francis. "The second was to eliminate the law of celibacy. He said it was not part of the doctrine of the church. It was started more than 1,000 years ago by a pope, and he considers it archaic, an antiquity which needs to be reconsidered."

"He thinks God made everyone to live in family, including priests."

If this was true, then Pope Francis would have already done so. He does have the authority to do so. So until I see something official from the Vatican, then I will call this dubious as best.

It has been pretty sad that those on the left of the Church have so much hope that Francis is going to make all these changes, and yet they don't happen. At some point they are going to turn on him, instead of realizing that they are on the wrong side of this one.

 

[Erose]

I believe that celibacy should be decision made by an individual between the individual and God alone. Anyone can choose to remain celibate, including protestants. I don't think that a religious institution has the authority to mandate celibacy as a requirement for priesthood or the convent. I believe that celibacy is honorable, however, priest and nuns should be free to marry at their own choosing or remain celibate at their own choosing.

Jason, the problem with your assertion is that for some reason you think that people are forced to become priests, monks and nuns, which isn't the case. Everyone who decides to make a vow of celibacy to be a priest or a nun or a monk, go through years of discernment before they are allowed to make those vows. No one is forced to take the vow.

Concerning laity who want to live a religious life, and be married, there are third orders of various monastic groups that they can become members of.

If one wants to be a priest and be married, all they have to do is become a member of an Eastern Catholic Church, get married, and then apply for the seminary, or at least get married before they become priests. For afterwards, they cannot.

So I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that people are forced to chastity. Those who take the vows of celibacy and chastity are not being forced to do anything. In fact the vows would be considered invalid if it is discovered that an individual was coerced to take those vows.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Here's some good news for those who cannot contain, as Paul said.


LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - As it stands now, Catholic priests take a vow of celibacy and cannot be married. The Catholic church simply does not accept divorce, and anyone divorced, who then remarries or starts a sexual relationship with a new person, is committing adultery under Catholic law.

"He said, these were his priorities as Pope. The first of all is to change the rules for divorced couples," claims Crespo on his conversation with Francis. "The second was to eliminate the law of celibacy. He said it was not part of the doctrine of the church. It was started more than 1,000 years ago by a pope, and he considers it archaic, an antiquity which needs to be reconsidered."

"He thinks God made everyone to live in family, including priests."

I have news for you...priests indeed have family. Their flock. Secondly, priests will never be allowed to marry, if they're already priests. It's possible that married men may become priests, but I hope they're ready to raise their families on $20,000 a year (the salary of a diocesan priest in the US...maybe it's $30K now). Because of all the scandal and lawsuits, the dioceses will not be able to pay more than that...

 

[now faith]

I have news for you...priests indeed have family. Their flock. Secondly, priests will never be allowed to marry, if they're already priests. It's possible that married men may become priests, but I hope they're ready to raise their families on $20,000 a year (the salary of a diocesan priest in the US...maybe it's $30K now). Because of all the scandal and lawsuits, the dioceses will not be able to pay more than that...

It seems this Pope is more liberal in his mindset,it wouldent surprise me if he lifted the vow of cebilicy.

 

[JackRT]

It seems this Pope is more liberal in his mindset,it wouldent surprise me if he lifted the vow of cebilicy.

Hierarchial forms of church government tends to consolidate power at the top of the pyramid and almost inevitably becomes rigid and self serving. It becomes rigid not just in its structure and authority but also in its belief. Generally speaking the development of dogma and creed serve less to enlighten the faithful than to confuse them. It becomes a litmus test to identify the faithful as either one of ours or one of those horrible heretics. Dogma and creed become sacrosanct ---- locked in place and not to be tampered with even when new information or new understandings of old information comes along. Even in the rare event that an enlightened progressive leader takes power, the structure itself ensures that little if any real change takes place.

 

[Erose]

Hierarchial forms of church government tends to consolidate power at the top of the pyramid and almost inevitably becomes rigid and self serving. It becomes rigid not just in its structure and authority but also in its belief. Generally speaking the development of dogma and creed serve less to enlighten the faithful than to confuse them. It becomes a litmus test to identify the faithful as either one of ours or one of those horrible heretics. Dogma and creed become sacrosanct ---- locked in place and not to be tampered with even when new information or new understandings of old information comes along. Even in the rare event that an enlightened progressive leader takes power, the structure itself ensures that little if any real change takes place.

Thank God!

 

[Root of Jesse]

It seems this Pope is more liberal in his mindset,it wouldent surprise me if he lifted the vow of cebilicy.

I doubt it. It wouldn't be 'fair' for all the men who are already priests and have already taken the vow. It also wouldn't have any effect on those communities, such as the Jesuits and Franciscans. The Church already makes exceptions for those of, say, Anglican priests who convert, but they are very rare.
As I said, apart from the fact that priests have never been allowed to marry, though married men have been allowed to be priests, there's an issue of how a priest would be able to support a family.

 

[JackRT]

fact that priests have never been allowed to marry

That is not a fact.

 

[Root of Jesse]

That is not a fact.

Prove it. Point to a time when the Catholic Church allowed those already ordained to get married.