Where did the concept of 'Celibacy' come from?

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You a Dan Brown Conspiracy kind of guy, eh?

I wasn't going to say it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Popes who were married
St. Peter, Apostle
St. Felix III 483-492 (2 children)
St. Hormidas 514-523 (1 son)
St. Silverus (Antonia) 536-537
Hadrian II 867-872 (1 daughter)
Clement IV 1265-1268 (2 daughters)
Felix V 1439-1449 (1 son)

Those weren't married. Their children were out of wedlock, except for Peter. Glad you can acknowledge him as the first pope, though. There was, in the past, no requirement for priestly celibacy, though you could never be married and be a bishop. Nor could you become a priest and then get married.

 

[civilwarbuff]

But which is worse being married or having children out of wedlock?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Just to be clear, I never said celibacy in itself is anti-biblical. Rather making celibacy a requirement for priesthood is. Thus, the tradition of celibacy for catholic priests and nuns are not biblical but rather a tradition of man. Yes, there are exceptions. There are Catholic priests who are married. But they are only allowed under certain circumstances. If a priest later decided to become married after becoming ordained, I am pretty sure that would require him to leave the priesthood.

Priestly celibacy is a discipline, not included in Sacred Tradition. It can be changed, if the hierarchy ever sees fit. Also, you can be married and become a priest, but you can't become a priest and then get married. Nuns have always been wedded to Christ, so have never been married at the same time as being a nun. There have been women who married, had children, were widowed, and became nuns.

 

[Root of Jesse]

But which is worse being married or having children out of wedlock?

I'm with you on that. There's no question that there were some wicked popes. Not a lot, praise God. Thankfully, those bad ones were too interested in themselves and their wealth to do much damage to the Church.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Priestly celibacy is a discipline, not included in Sacred Tradition. It can be changed, if the hierarchy ever sees fit. Also, you can be married and become a priest, but you can't become a priest and then get married. Nuns have always been wedded to Christ, so have never been married at the same time as being a nun. There have been women who married, had children, were widowed, and became nuns.

In either case, be it priest or nuns, it is not biblical for anyone to be told the have remain celibate. It is even written in 1 Timothy 4 that forbidding people to marry is one of the identifying factors that describes those who follow "deceiving spirits". It cannot be more clear than that.

1 Timothy 4:1-5

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.


I would go on to say that "For everything God created is good (marriage included) , and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer", marriage cannot be rejected by anyone for any reason and thus making the tradition of celibacy for nuns an priests anti-biblical.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I'm with you on that. There's no question that there were some wicked popes.

Yet as a catholic, one absolutely must obey the pope no matter how wicked he is. That is the main reason why I am not a catholic anymore. My soul is too precious to me to put it in the hands of the Pope or any man for that matter. Only God through his son.

 

[JackRT]

You a Dan Brown Conspiracy kind of guy, eh?

I did my research long before I ever heard of Dan Brown.

 

[Root of Jesse]

In either case, be it priest or nuns, it is not biblical for anyone to be told the have remain celibate. It is even written in 1 Timothy 4 that forbidding people to marry is one of the identifying factors that describes those who follow "deceiving spirits". It cannot be more clear than that.

1 Timothy 4:1-5

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.


I would go on to say that "For everything God created is good (marriage included) , and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer", marriage cannot be rejected by anyone for any reason and thus making the tradition of celibacy for nuns an priests anti-biblical.

They aren't told. They're asked. It's a free gift of the person. End of story. There is no right to be a priest or nun. It is a calling, part of which is the requirement. If they aren't willing, they can go back to their former life. Many are called, few are chosen.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yet as a catholic, one absolutely must obey the pope no matter how wicked he is. That is the main reason why I am not a catholic anymore. My soul is too precious to me to put it in the hands of the Pope or any man for that matter. Only God through his son.

Obey the pope? Do you think that, when Pope Francis said we must fight climate change, that I had to obey him? He's not authoritative on that. Only on faith and morals is the Pope authoritative. So how much do you think a pope who's running around with mistresses is going to spout off on faith and morals???

 

[Root of Jesse]

I did my research long before I ever heard of Dan Brown.

Read the same books, I'll wager. There is no reliable source that confirms Jesus was married or had children. I've done my research too.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Obey the pope? Do you think that, when Pope Francis said we must fight climate change, that I had to obey him? He's not authoritative on that. Only on faith and morals is the Pope authoritative. So how much do you think a pope who's running around with mistresses is going to spout off on faith and morals???

The question is are all Catholics as informed as you? Most certainly not. There is going to be certain number of Catholics who go with the Pope no matter what he says or on the topic. Just at there are going to be Protestants who go with the "Wealth & Health" preachers that inundate the airwaves. Way back then, without the modern tech, people followed what their priests told them....most certainly when it concerned the Pope...the priest represented the Pope who represented Jesus....and not many had the courage to question the church.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Obey the pope? Do you think that, when Pope Francis said we must fight climate change, that I had to obey him? He's not authoritative on that. Only on faith and morals is the Pope authoritative. So how much do you think a pope who's running around with mistresses is going to spout off on faith and morals???

Are you suggesting that Catholics can pick and choose when to obey the pope? Why is it that celibacy ok but climate change isn't? Even Pope Francis is making global warming a moral issue in regards to the future of humanity yet you clearly say he is authoritative in the moral and ethics department. You have even said yourself that some popes were "wicked". How can a pope be both "wicked" and the "moral authority"?

 

[JackRT]

Read the same books, I'll wager. There is no reliable source that confirms Jesus was married or had children. I've done my research too.

You are certainly right that the question remains wide open. But, in my mind at least, there is much to suggest it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

g

Are you suggesting that Catholics can pick and choose when to obey the pope? Why is it that celibacy ok but climate change isn't? Even Pope Francis is making global warming a moral issue in regards to the future of humanity yet you clearly say he is authoritative in the moral and ethics department. You have even said yourself that some popes were "wicked". How can a pope be both "wicked" and the "moral authority"?

That is the fault of the individual Catholic. It is the responsibility of the individual to learn their faith.

Celibacy is not a proclamation of the pope. It's a discipline, which can be changed at any time, with the stroke of a pen. Men give the gift of their sexuality to God. Regarding global warming, there is truth in the pope's words-that we must be good stewards of our Earth. On that, he's authoritative-that's a moral issue. But whether (or not) our interaction is causing global warming is not something he's authoritative on.
The real question is "Will a pope who is morally corrupt use the moral authority he has to corrupt the people?" I don't think so. Of course, he causes scandal by his actions, especially in the information age, where popes on airplanes step into the weeds in interviews and it gets global attention.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

g

The real question is "Will a pope who is morally corrupt use the moral authority he has to corrupt the people?" I don't think so.

The answer is "yes" and "they have" look at the inquisitions and the crusades.

 

[civilwarbuff]

They aren't told. They're asked. It's a free gift of the person. End of story.

In this I agree....If you are applying for a job you gotta read the job description....don't complain afterwards.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The answer is "yes" and "they have" look at the inquisitions and the crusades.

The popes weren't, in most cases, involved in any atrocities, minimal though they were, in the inquistions or the crusades. The Inquisition was simply a court system. Once in a while individuals in the Church took it upon themselves to do something they shouldn't. But not the Pope.
The Crusades were just wars aimed at protecting Christians in the Holy Land. That they went off course, a lot, is a result of human failing, not papal.
Most of the corrupt popes were about money, power and legacy, rather than anything else.

 

[Root of Jesse]

In this I agree....If you are applying for a job you gotta read the job description....don't complain afterwards.

And you can always go back on your vows...

 

[civilwarbuff]

The Crusades were just wars aimed at protecting Christians in the Holy Land. That they went off course, a lot, is a result of human failing, not papal.

The crusades were a response to Islam invading the Holy Land and subjugating Christians.The Popes supported and frequently called on support for these conflicts....I see no failing in that...human or otherwise....