Where Did Humans Come From?

[JAL]

From what I’ve seen on this thread, you’d rather use ad hominem attacks rather than discuss and, hopefully, learn something,

I supplied REASONS for my beliefs. If any ad hominem occurred, it was only in response to the same.

 

[FaithT]

I supplied REASONS for my beliefs. If any ad hominem occurred, it was only in response to the same.

Pfffft.

 

[JAL]

Pfffft.

My sentiments exactly.

You talk about teachability - and yet I've seen no indication that you are open-minded. You might want to take your own advice.

 

[FaithT]

The much bigger mainstream Lutheran church grouping is the ELCA (I'm in one actually), which is typically very mainstream I think. Our congregation I think is very typical, and is full of conservative people right along with centrists and liberal members too -- an entire spectrum of attitudes, just like people in general -- all together in the same congregation (!) We all get along beautifully. That the congregation is quite a bit more conservative overall than some members isn't really a problem. We are Christians. But you'd also find you would not be judged for thinking the Earth is old for instance.

Every time I have a problem regarding my faith, it’s over stuff like this. Pre hominids, age of the earth, science related subjects.

 

[JAL]

Every time I have a problem regarding my faith, it’s over stuff like this. Pre hominids, age of the earth, science related subjects.

I think at times I perhaps felt the way you did. And that's why I opened my mind to a non-traditional position.

A while back I had a Christian coworker so overwhelmed by the Problem of Evil that she tried to commit suicide. She couldn't reconcile a supposedly good God permitting a dark world.

Yet when I tried to open her mind to a solution, she didn't seem interested in what I had to say. It almost felt like she was so used to blaming God for bad stuff that she didn't want to lose Him as her favorite scapegoat.

 

[JAL]

I think you're relying way too much on your own reasoning for something you don't seem to know very much about.

I think you've overestimated the level of difficulty facing me. If choice A is incoherent, go with B, thereby eliminating about 15 charges of incoherence. This isn't rocket science.

 

[The Barbarian]

Everything seems simple if one doesn't know anything about it.

 

[JAL]

Everything seems simple if one doesn't know anything about it.

Between the two of us, it seems odd that somebody indicted me as the one guilty of ad hominem.

 

[renniks]

How do you interpret the evidence? Science is very clear in its belief that there was never a human bottle neck of two people. I think the fewest number of people in the world was something like 10,000 or maybe I’m mistaken on the number but it was far greater than two.

How did we get from Zero to 10k?

 

[FaithT]

How did we get from Zero to 10k?

I don’t know

 

[FaithT]

I don’t know

I guess evolution

 

[JAL]

Genesis seems to differentiate between the souls of animals and the souls that God gives to humans directly.

That's not very clear. Animal souls are not God-given? Where do animals get their souls?

Anyway, since you haven't shown much appreciation for the philosophical issues raised, maybe we can briefly shift to your turf?

Here's my take: I have a LOT more faith in devolution than evolution. Examples:

- Consider a computer program stored on a floppy disc. Somebody steps on the disc. What's the reaction? "Great news! At least one line of code probably got warped - likely you have now evolved a better program."

- Similarly, consider a pregnant women informed of an infant mutation. What's her reaction? "Great news! Very likely it will confer a selective advantage, allowing him to surpass his peers."

- Similarly, consider a truck-driver who slams his vehicle into a nuclear power plant. What's the reaction? "Great news! Chances are the radiation made random improvements to his DNA, and any sustained injuries/mutilations/mutations will likely prove beneficial as well."

You'll likely reply, "In nature we observe beneficial evolutions all the time." I doubt it. I think what you're seeing is the ingenuity of the Creator in designing highly adaptive genetic material.

Moving on. A body is just a machine. Therefore pain is an experience of the soul. Since many species exhibit signs of pain, it seems reasonable to conclude that all animals have souls. This entails a Creator intimately involved with every birth, and every speciation, and thus casts a bit of doubt on the relatively hands-off approach suggested by evolution.

One of my biggest doubts about evolution is heterosexuality. In humans, for example, the physiological differences between male and female are dramatic. After all:
- Evolutionary mutations are supposed to occur slowly over time.
- Only those that confer a selective advantage should persist.
- Here we're talking about a HUGE number of changes.

Am I to entertain seriously the notion that each of these minute changes conferred a selective advantage? Sorry but I don't have that much faith. I remind you again of the dented floppy disk. Random changes to code are NOT beneficial but, on the contrary, highly destructive. This favors devolution over evolution.

If you have enough faith to believe this evolutionary stuff, kudos to you. Meanwhile I'll stick with the OEC model for the moment.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Every time I have a problem regarding my faith, it’s over stuff like this. Pre hominids, age of the earth, science related subjects.

...meh! I wouldn't even worry about it all, Sis.

I know. It's complicated but, seriously, it's not that serious. Really, it's not.

 

[The Barbarian]

I know. It's complicated but, seriously, it's not that serious. Really, it's not.

Today's winner.

 

[The Barbarian]

BTW, there is no "devolution''; that was a one-joke new wave group. There is only evolution. And natural selection is why it tends to improve fitness in a population. (Details available for anyone slept through biology class in high school)

 

[renniks]

I guess evolution

Then how can you say there was never only two? Did 10000 just pop into existence from nothing?

 

[FaithT]

Then how can you say there was never only two? Did 10000 just pop into existence from nothing?

No, they probably evolved from other life forms. I guess.

 

[renniks]

No, they probably evolved from other life forms. I guess.

And this is why evolution never makes sense.

 

[FaithT]

...meh! I wouldn't even worry about it all, Sis.

I know. It's complicated but, seriously, it's not that serious. Really, it's not.

Well, it’s also been about the topic that other poster mentioned earlier, about Quirinius (sp), Herod and Luke’s Gospel, which is supposed to be in error.…

 

[FaithT]

And this is why evolution never makes sense.

Can you explain further?