Where Arminianism Fails.

[royal priest]

Can't find it?
Got a verse?
M-Bob

Regarding the widow's persistence with the unjust judge.
Luke 18:8
"Shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

 

[royal priest]

So you get saved twice?
Calvinism is wacky.
Yes, you have to be convicted by the spirit... but you can reject or follow that conviction.

With monergistic salvation, God does the saving once for all. He cannot lose those whom He saves. He allows none to snatch them from the Shepherd's hand. He completes the work which He begins.
You cannot be in and out of God's kingdom. You are either destined for it or not. Nothing will seperate God's children from their Father. Especially the children themselves since the Father is saving them from themselves.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Have you ever met a Calvinist who was a warm and loving guy?

Is that the defense of Arminianism?

But yes, I have met many, and hope (and make an effort) to be that myself. However, for whatever it is worth, Truth is worth more than affability. Specially when it concerns the source of all good --the truth of the Gospel is that it is ALL of it the work of God.

I will happily admit --even claim-- that God doesn't seem to hold it against the many truly born again believers who think it was their act of believing that enabled God to do what he had chosen to do from the beginning. But I'm not as good nor as patient and accommodating as him. I hate to see his goodness and power denied and ignored in favor of "free will" and the power of choice.

I've heard the same sort of argument against Reformed Theology, in that it fails to motivate people to do what is good and right --fails to compel believers to obey. That is as false as the notion that Calvinists are mean and arrogant. We love him because he first loved us --not because we are loving people. His goodness, patience, tenderness and mercy in the face of awful sin and self-importance of his creatures is motivation enough, but even more is the change of heart that comes with regeneration, that is the work of the Spirit within that causes such grief at one's own sin that repentance is unavoidable.

As it is with Salvation, so it is with Sanctification --the Spirit does not allow us to sit idle. And along with repentance comes a burning love for the Truth. I'm sorry if it hurts you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The basic claim Arminians make is "You must choose to believe in order to be saved". But you must already believe [have the Holy Spirit] or you would not choose to believe. And Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So choosing to believe is a quasi repentance that leads to true repentance.

Hey, Dave. Thanks for the thread. I would have heartily said I agree, except I'm wondering just what you mean by your last sentence. It almost sound tongue-in-cheek. If you are saying that the choosing to believe (which follows regeneration) is a step toward repentance, I agree. Wholeheartedly.

Again, thanks, Brother.

 

[Mark Quayle]

First, there is no decision that leads to salvation. Jesus says whoever believes has (already has) eternal life. Any decision follows (believing) in the form of repentance.

Others hear the same gospel as law. And think they must choose Christ as a legal act which God must honor with salvation. That is, unless they don't keep their end of the deal. These cannot discern the true Christ not being born again and choose an idol in his name.

I want to add to what you say here, and I think you will agree, that not all those who "trust" synergism to do that job, actually have put their trust in self. Intellectually, they may, but in fact, many of them are truly born again, and simply don't know that their faith and repentance is God-made. Their trust is in God, even if they don't know it.

I personally know many many of these Christians, and I have noticed a curious thing --the theology they espouse is Arminian --or leaning that way-- but their prayers are Calvinistic!

 

[fhansen]

The basic claim Arminians make is "You must choose to believe in order to be saved". But you must already believe [have the Holy Spirit] or you would not choose to believe. And Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So choosing to believe is a quasi repentance that leads to true repentance.

Man is lost; he cannot possibly find God even if he wanted to. So while the Holy Spirit finds us and enables us to believe, He still nonetheless never forces us to believe. We can, IOW, still say "no" at any point along the way even if we cannot say "yes" to begin with without Him. Faith is both a gift-and a choice-the choice to accept that gift.

 

[rockytopva]

I had a book ministry at work in which some guy, after reading one of the testimonial books, wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal Holiness church. I had a friend I knew as Ray who was baptist, so I took him to a Baptist church. Well, they had a Franklin Graham testimonial film that Sunday night and my friend goes up to get saved... Only... There is no altar! Some guy gets my friend and takes him to a Sunday School room and begins to talk all that doctrine.... Now get the picture... Here is a guy ready to receive Christ with tears running down his cheek and he is getting doctrinalized! I was thinking to myself for the crying out loud say the sinners prayer! Let him acknowledge Christ so he can go through to salvation!

...The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - Romans 10:8-9

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:3

The most spiritual people I have met were able to simply acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ, and then believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead. And then happily go from there. I find myself fearing, along with Paul, that too much doctrine can damage the simplicity of it all.

 

[DamianWarS]

The basic claim Arminians make is "You must choose to believe in order to be saved". But you must already believe [have the Holy Spirit] or you would not choose to believe. And Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So choosing to believe is a quasi repentance that leads to true repentance.

So the HS chooses those for eternal life which implicitly means he also chooses those for the antithesis of eternal life. The gospel then seems rather arbitrary and it turns from the good news to the lucky news as salvation is no more than a lottery (at least from our perspective)

Paul tells us in Galations we receive the HS by hearing with faith. So this informs us prior to the receiving the HS there is a response that is pre-HS.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The basic claim Arminians make is "You must choose to believe in order to be saved". But you must already believe [have the Holy Spirit] or you would not choose to believe. And Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So choosing to believe is a quasi repentance that leads to true repentance.

This is a lot of speculation that looks very much like a strawman arguement. Jesus tells us: "7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." (Matthew 7:7,8) This is more along the line of what I actually experienced. I had problems and I needed solutions. I had questions and I needed answers. Science does not have all the answers and all the solutions. A friend told me to "try God'. I actually had nothing to lose and everything to gain. I had looked everywhere I knew to look and I had tried everything I had known to try. So I tried the Bible only the Bible did not make any sense and reading the Bible seems to make things worse. Then they told me to pray and ask for God to give me the Holy Spirit of God. That is what I did and the Bible began to make sense. We are told that the Holy Spirit is our teacher and our guide to lead us into all truth. We do not need man to teach us we have our Bible and the Holy Spirit.

One thing people forget it that the discussion has lot more then just Calvan and Arminian. You have Wesley and Smith that want to be a part of this discussion. Wesley kind of came with my wife sense she was a Methodist. But the Holiness teaching is very much a part of the Pentacostal and Charisatic. I have found that holiness and sanctification is very important to God if we want to draw close to Him. I do not know if I made a choice to believe as you suggest so much as I made a choice to try God. To try to do what the Bible says to do to see if I would get the results the Bible said I would get. This all worked out for me. We are told NOT to lean on our own understanding but to trust in God. It looks to me like your mental gymnastics here is little more then man's attempt to try to figure out what God tells us not to try to understand. Rather we are to trust in Him and He will find a way for us.

 

[Dave L]

So the HS chooses those for eternal life which implicitly means he also chooses those for the antithesis of eternal life. The gospel then seems rather arbitrary and it turns from the good news to the lucky news as salvation is no more than a lottery (at least from our perspective)

Paul tells us in Galations we receive the HS by hearing with faith. So this informs us prior to the receiving the HS there is a response that is pre-HS.

The flesh cannot hear the gospel in a saving way. It hears a law and tries to earn salvation by obeying it. When Paul speaks of hearing the word and receiving the Spirit thereby, the word is Spirit that opens the hearts of the elect building faith in them.

 

[Dave L]

Man is lost; he cannot possibly find God even if he wanted to. So while the Holy Spirit finds us and enables us to believe, He still nonetheless never forces us to believe. We can, IOW, still say "no" at any point along the way even if we cannot say "yes" to begin with without Him. Faith is both a gift-and a choice-the choice to accept that gift.

Where you are missing it is in the new birth we experience Christ in our hearts and believe because of that. Force implies we only gamble that Christ might be real and we take a stab at believing.

 

[Dave L]

So you get saved twice?
Calvinism is wacky.
Yes, you have to be convicted by the spirit... but you can reject or follow that conviction.

No, it's about believers being confused. God must save a person before they can believe at a saved level. But Arminianism teaches we must save ourselves through obedience. So in essence, many believe (are saved by God) but think they must choose to believe (redundant) and this is a type of repentance that leads to true repentance.

 

[Dave L]

You using Jesus words is a false premise, at least in how you use them. Jesus wasn't saying someone believes because they have eternal life. That's like someone saying, Someone who eats is full. Being full doesn't cause a person to eat.

Jesus was saying if a person chooses to believe, they have at the moment of belief, salvation. And as long as they continue to believe, they will continue to have salvation.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” John 6:47 (KJV 1900)

It's like saying whoever has lottery ticket numbers ##### has won the jackpot. If you believe, it's because you have eternal life residing in you.

 

[section9+1]

I am sure belief relies upon us. I don't care about total depravity or about God picking out who gets saved.
The world is a hard place to live in. Life is a hard experience all around. Trouble and pain and heartache and suffering is everywhere. In Calvinism I can see no meaning or purpose to any of this. Nothing matters because nothing impact the outcomes. It's all a pointless stage play in which the players move through their roles and nothing more. It is far more evil than it would be if it meant anything.

 

[fhansen]

Where you are missing it is in the new birth we experience Christ in our hearts and believe because of that. Force implies we only gamble that Christ might be real and we take a stab at believing.

Well...no, force implies the opposite-that we have no choice but to believe because we're caused to do so.

But faith has always been an option. Adam's sin was a sin of disbelief; by denying God's authority he denied His godhood, His right to be obeyed. And this in spite of Adam's closer relationship to God. Faith is offered as a free gift of grace, and the new birth is the consequence, as we accept.

 

[Dave L]

Well...no, force implies the opposite-that we have no choice but to believe because we're caused to do so.

But faith has always been an option. Adam's sin was a sin of disbelief; by denying God's authority he denied His godhood, His right to be obeyed. And this in spite of Adam's closer relationship to God. Faith is offered as a free gift of grace, and the new birth is the consequence, as we accept.

Do you choose to believe you are sitting when you are sitting? It's the same with believing in Christ. Because you experience him in your heart and believing is inevitable.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Yes, you have to be convicted by the spirit... but you can reject or follow that conviction.

So Saul could have rejected and stayed blinded?
M-Bob

 

[-57]

I am sure belief relies upon us. I don't care about total depravity or about God picking out who gets saved.
The world is a hard place to live in. Life is a hard experience all around. Trouble and pain and heartache and suffering is everywhere. In Calvinism I can see no meaning or purpose to any of this. Nothing matters because nothing impact the outcomes. It's all a pointless stage play in which the players move through their roles and nothing more. It is far more evil than it would be if it meant anything.

The problem with your view is that the happenstance life impacts your outcome. What you went through, experience, learned or didn't learn etc. is part of the acceptance or rejection formula.

 

[-57]

Well...no, force implies the opposite-that we have no choice but to believe because we're caused to do so.

But faith has always been an option. Adam's sin was a sin of disbelief; by denying God's authority he denied His godhood, His right to be obeyed. And this in spite of Adam's closer relationship to God. Faith is offered as a free gift of grace, and the new birth is the consequence, as we accept.

Why does one accept or reject this free gift of grace?

 

[DamianWarS]

The flesh cannot hear the gospel in a saving way. It hears a law and tries to earn salvation by obeying it. When Paul speaks of hearing the word and receiving the Spirit thereby, the word is Spirit that opens the hearts of the elect building faith in them.

Paul speaks of "hearing with faith" (ESV), other translations say "believing what you heard" (NIV). Although a message is implicit Paul does not speak of this "word" and his focus is on the hearer and then believer. Your version removes the focus from "hearer" and places it on the parts unwritten and not focused on calling it the Spirit. What gives you such liberties to pry open scripture and say "what he really meant was..."

I know you have an allergy to all things remotely similar to pentecostalism and so defend only the polar reverse but eventually, it starts sounding like the bias.