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Where are the current ripples from Noah's Flood?

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stevevw

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As to tech, the "step" appears to have taken many thousands of years and we are still not sure exactly how it proceeded. Of course, since you don't have any idea what their religious beliefs actually were, or what constitutes a "sophisticated" belief, that part of your statement is just moonshine.
No its not moonshine lol. We have dicovered their religious icons and practices and they are far more sophisticated than we thought compared to pre historic humans. Sure there may have been a gradual evolution of this but that doesn't change the fact that there was a far more sophisticated level of knowledge and belief than we gave humans credit for.
According to the article you quoted, Gobekli Tepe was in use from about 9500 to 8000 BC.

But according to you they were religious knuckleheads. Maybe you're just as wrong.
No I said according to mainstream beliefs humans should have been religious knuckleheads as they claimed that religion didn't c ome until we settled down as farmers and formed communities around 6000 years ago with Sumar.

But here we have ancient peoples with very sophisticated religions. Not just burials with impliments but with complex beliefs reflected in the Temple like structures where people came to worship well before Sumar and Mesopotamia.

But I am not sure if these are a pre or post flood cultures. Scholars have worked out the flood happened around 6,000 years ago which would put cultures like Göbekli Tepe well before Noahs flood.

But if some big disater like the melting of glaziers around the last Ice age 12,000 years ago then it would put cultures like Gobekli Tepe right around the time of the flood. In fact some scholars say some of the despictions at Gobekli Tepe predicted the flood. It makes some sense that Gobekli Tepe is preflood as many of these ancient cultures were abandoned in tact and buried deep under sediments.

There seems to be a gap missing between these cultures which are around 11,500 plus years ago and the later Sumar and Mesopotamia cultures of around 6,000 years ago which may be the cultures that sprang up after the flood.

Thats why I think the flood disater happened between cultures like Gobeki Tepe and those said to be the birth of civilisation in and around Mesopotamia.
 
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Astrid

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No its not moonshine lol. We have dicovered their religious icons and practices and they are far more sophisticated than we thought compared to pre historic humans. Sure there may have been a gradual evolution of this but that doesn't change the fact that there was a far more sophisticated level of knowledge and belief than we gave humans credit for.

No I said according to mainstream beliefs humans should have been religious knuckleheads as they claimed that religion didn't c ome until we settled down as farmers and formed communities around 6000 years ago with Sumar.

But here we have ancient peoples with very sophisticated religions. Not just burials with impliments but with complex beliefs reflected in the Temple like structures where people came to worship well before Sumar and Mesopotamia.

But I am not sure if these are a pre or post flood cultures. Scholars have worked out the flood happened around 6,000 years ago which would put cultures like Göbekli Tepe well before Noahs flood.

But if some big disater like the melting of glaziers around the last Ice age 12,000 years ago then it would put cultures like Gobekli Tepe right around the time of the flood. In fact some scholars say some of the despictions at Gobekli Tepe predicted the flood. It makes some sense that Gobekli Tepe is preflood as many of these ancient cultures were abandoned in tact and buried deep under sediments.

There seems to be a gap missing between these cultures which are around 11,500 plus years ago and the later Sumar and Mesopotamia cultures of around 6,000 years ago which may be the cultures that sprang up after the flood.

Thats why I think the flood disater happened between cultures like Gobeki Tepe and those said to be the birth of civilisation in and around Mesopotamia.
what flood disaster do you refer to?
 
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sjastro

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No its not moonshine lol. We have dicovered their religious icons and practices and they are far more sophisticated than we thought compared to pre historic humans. Sure there may have been a gradual evolution of this but that doesn't change the fact that there was a far more sophisticated level of knowledge and belief than we gave humans credit for.

No I said according to mainstream beliefs humans should have been religious knuckleheads as they claimed that religion didn't c ome until we settled down as farmers and formed communities around 6000 years ago with Sumar.

But here we have ancient peoples with very sophisticated religions. Not just burials with impliments but with complex beliefs reflected in the Temple like structures where people came to worship well before Sumar and Mesopotamia.
The 'possible' evidence for religious beliefs goes far beyond 6000 years ago.

Mungo_Man.png

These are the remains of Lake Mungo man from Australia dated 42,000 years ago.
Note the brownish residue around the remains, this is red ochre which the body was coated in at the time of burial.
Red ochre is often associated with ritualistic or symbolic uses in ancient cultures worldwide, frequently linked to beliefs about the afterlife, so it is distinctly possible the burial had religious significance.

But I am not sure if these are a pre or post flood cultures. Scholars have worked out the flood happened around 6,000 years ago which would put cultures like Göbekli Tepe well before Noahs flood.

But if some big disater like the melting of glaziers around the last Ice age 12,000 years ago then it would put cultures like Gobekli Tepe right around the time of the flood. In fact some scholars say some of the despictions at Gobekli Tepe predicted the flood. It makes some sense that Gobekli Tepe is preflood as many of these ancient cultures were abandoned in tact and buried deep under sediments.

There seems to be a gap missing between these cultures which are around 11,500 plus years ago and the later Sumar and Mesopotamia cultures of around 6,000 years ago which may be the cultures that sprang up after the flood.

Thats why I think the flood disater happened between cultures like Gobeki Tepe and those said to be the birth of civilisation in and around Mesopotamia.
The interglacial period began around 11,700 years ago, Gobekli Tepe existed from 11,600 to 10,200 years ago putting it in the very early period of the interglacial.
Rising sea levels increased at a very low rate and when the occupation of Gobekli Tepe ended, sea levels were still considerably lower compared to today so we can eliminate this as a possibility.

Your link provides a reason why these hunter gatherers abandoned Gobekli Tepe and why Gobekli Tepe is not an example of an earlier civilization predating Mesopotamia.

Around the beginning of the 8th millennium BCE, Göbekli Tepe lost its importance. The advent of agriculture and animal husbandry brought new realities to human life in the area, and the "Stone-age zoo" apparently lost whatever significance it had had for the region's older, foraging communities.
 
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stevevw

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what flood disaster do you refer to?
I am talking about the flood associated with the Younger Dryas. The sudden melting of northen glaziers and the resulting flooding around 12,000 years ago.
 
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stevevw

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The 'possible' evidence for religious beliefs goes far beyond 6000 years ago.

These are the remains of Lake Mungo man from Australia dated 42,000 years ago.
Note the brownish residue around the remains, this is red ochre which the body was coated in at the time of burial.
Red ochre is often associated with ritualistic or symbolic uses in ancient cultures worldwide, frequently linked to beliefs about the afterlife, so it is distinctly possible the burial had religious significance.
Yes there is evidence of ceremonial burials. But cultures like Gobekli Tepe around 12,000 years ago far exceed burial practices. We are talking about full on worship. the building of temples and worshiping the cosmos and nature. Scientist thought that level of religion did not happen until humans began to settle down in cities like in Mesopotamia around 6,000 years ago.
The interglacial period began around 11,700 years ago, Gobekli Tepe existed from 11,600 to 10,200 years ago putting it in the very early period of the interglacial.
Rising sea levels increased at a very low rate and when the occupation of Gobekli Tepe ended, sea levels were still considerably lower compared to today so we can eliminate this as a possibility.
So therefore Gobekli Tepe may have been a pre flood culture. Like I said some scientists claim that depictions within Gobekli Tepe refer to star and sun alignments that were associated with a flood. So they may have been predicting the coming flood.

Some say the glazial melt happened over 4,000 years but there is also evidence for the Younger Dryas where a possible celestial disaster like a comet hit and set off a sudden melt with the associated heat. Another idea is the shutdown of the North Atlantic "Conveyor" others say a Sun flare. Either way there was a sudden spike in temperature that caused the melt.
Your link provides a reason why these hunter gatherers abandoned Gobekli Tepe and why Gobekli Tepe is not an example of an earlier civilization predating Mesopotamia.
Of course Gobekli Tepe is a culture that pre dates Mesopotamia. Gobekli Tepe is dated around 11,000 years old. Mesopotamiais only around 6,000 years old making Gobekli Tepe nearly twice as old.

We don't know why Gobekli Tepe and other cultures suddenly disappeared but they did.
 
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Zaha Torte

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I do not believe that the Noahic Flood was a real global event that happened and I am under no necessity to believe it as an event since it is not necessary for salvation nor belief in Christ being the saviour and the Son of God to do so.

End of discussion.
I never called your faith in Christ into question - nor did I claim that anyone having doubts about or disagreeing with the global Flood event as described in Genesis cannot be Christian (or anything like that)

What I did call into question was the bad logic you yourself claimed to use to discredit claims made in the Bible.

You claimed that since miraculous results were had onetime - only to certain people under certain circumstances - then they should conform to what we expect or see and that they should be repeatable.

There is no reason to assume any of that.

I am not saying that you do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ or anything like that - I am saying that you have not given enough time and consideration to all the claims made in the Bible - especially in regard to God and how He operates - to reasonably and responsibly claim that anything recorded in the Bible does not conform with reality.

I mean - the Resurrection of the Lord does not conform to what we expect or have seen in this life - and we certainly cannot repeat it - does that mean we can reasonably and responsibly dismiss it?

How could you claim to have faith in the risen Lord - or any hope that He is the means of salvation - if you could just use the same bad logic you used for other testimonies in the Bible (like the account of Jacob and the goats) - to explain away His Resurrection?

And your many attempted dodges and distractions you use to excuse your bad logic and to misrepresent what I have said in order to save face leads me to believe that you are not being fully honest with yourself and others.
 
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BCP1928

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Yes there is evidence of ceremonial burials. But cultures like Gobekli Tepe around 12,000 years ago far exceed burial practices. We are talking about full on worship. the building of temples and worshiping the cosmos and nature. Scientist thought that level of religion did not happen until humans began to settle down in cities like in Mesopotamia around 6,000 years ago.
Are you saying that cultures which build temples have a "better" religion than cultures which do not?
So therefore Gobekli Tepe may have been a pre flood culture. Like I said some scientists claim that depictions within Gobekli Tepe refer to star and sun alignments that were associated with a flood. So they may have been predicting the coming flood.

Some say the glazial melt happened over 4,000 years but there is also evidence for the Younger Dryas where a possible celestial disaster like a comet hit and set off a sudden melt with the associated heat. Another idea is the shutdown of the North Atlantic "Conveyor" others say a Sun flare. Either way there was a sudden spike in temperature that caused the melt.

Of course Gobekli Tepe is a culture that pre dates Mesopotamia. Gobekli Tepe is dated around 11,000 years old. Mesopotamiais only around 6,000 years old making Gobekli Tepe nearly twice as old.

We don't know why Gobekli Tepe and other cultures suddenly disappeared but they did.
What evidence do you have that the culture disappeared? In my example of the Mayans, the Mayans didn't disappear, their culture didn't disappear--the Mayan people and their culture exist to this day. They just, for one reason or another, had no further use for the elaborate stone structures they had built so they were abandoned.
 
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sjastro

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Yes there is evidence of ceremonial burials. But cultures like Gobekli Tepe around 12,000 years ago far exceed burial practices. We are talking about full on worship. the building of temples and worshiping the cosmos and nature. Scientist thought that level of religion did not happen until humans began to settle down in cities like in Mesopotamia around 6,000 years ago.
By your logic Australian aboriginals have a lower level of religion because they did not construct temples to worship their spirits and ancestors.

The Egyptian god Horus was worshipped in predynastic times before the dawn of Egyptian civilization, Egyptians of this period were into animism and nature worship while Horus the falcon god transitioned to the pharaonic Egypt period.
Does this mean the predynastic Egyptians had a lower level of religion compared to their later counterparts who built temples to worship gods like Horus; I don’t think so.
So therefore Gobekli Tepe may have been a pre flood culture. Like I said some scientists claim that depictions within Gobekli Tepe refer to star and sun alignments that were associated with a flood. So they may have been predicting the coming flood.

Some say the glazial melt happened over 4,000 years but there is also evidence for the Younger Dryas where a possible celestial disaster like a comet hit and set off a sudden melt with the associated heat. Another idea is the shutdown of the North Atlantic "Conveyor" others say a Sun flare. Either way there was a sudden spike in temperature that caused the melt.
Now I am confused this is what you wrote.

"But if some big disater like the melting of glaziers around the last Ice age 12,000 years ago then it would put cultures like Gobekli Tepe right around the time of the flood. In fact some scholars say some of the despictions at Gobekli Tepe predicted the flood. It makes some sense that Gobekli Tepe is preflood as many of these ancient cultures were abandoned in tact and buried deep under sediments."

Are there two different floods here, a flood due to the melting of glaciers which threatened Gobekli Tepe and its prediction of a later flood that was global?
If this is the case you run into the same problem as I explained to another poster, the dates when this global flood occurred as recorded by different cultures and civilizations do not line up.
Of course Gobekli Tepe is a culture that pre dates Mesopotamia. Gobekli Tepe is dated around 11,000 years old. Mesopotamiais only around 6,000 years old making Gobekli Tepe nearly twice as old.

We don't know why Gobekli Tepe and other cultures suddenly disappeared but they did.
You were also making the claim Gobekli Tepe is an example of an older civilization.

"Archeologist use to say that the birth of civilization happened around 6,000 years ago around Mesopotamia. Yet we are finding advanced cultures like Göbekli Tepe all over the globe which go back 12,000 to 20,000 years ago."

Gobekli Tepe is clearly not an example of an older civilization, it was not a site of urban development like the city of Ur in Mesopotamia, a writing system was not developed and tribal structures had not evolved into social classes such as leaders, artisans and farmers.

What is even more perplexing your Wiki link on Gobekli Tepe which I quoted makes it clear the site fell out of use with the introduction of agriculture and animal husbandry.
You are contradicting your link.
 
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stevevw

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By your logic Australian aboriginals have a lower level of religion because they did not construct temples to worship their spirits and ancestors.

The Egyptian god Horus was worshipped in predynastic times before the dawn of Egyptian civilization, Egyptians of this period were into animism and nature worship while Horus the falcon god transitioned to the pharaonic Egypt period.
Does this mean the predynastic Egyptians had a lower level of religion compared to their later counterparts who built temples to worship gods like Horus; I don’t think so.
This is a logical fallacy of false comparison. The beliefs that prehistoric humans had was primitive. It was the first signs of belief with simple practices like placing an item in the grave when buried. Thats compared to the complex religion of cultures like at Gobekli Tepe where they had got to the point of creating temples and spirits and a whole range of practices.

Aboriginal peoples had sophisticated beliefs of the Dreamtime which was way more than simple placement to a tool in a grave. Aboriginals don't make monuments they use nature, rocks, billabongs and landmarks as their temples. The point is they advanced their beliefs from the simple practices to include these things.
Now I am confused this is what you wrote.

"But if some big disater like the melting of glaziers around the last Ice age 12,000 years ago then it would put cultures like Gobekli Tepe right around the time of the flood. In fact some scholars say some of the despictions at Gobekli Tepe predicted the flood. It makes some sense that Gobekli Tepe is preflood as many of these ancient cultures were abandoned in tact and buried deep under sediments."

Are there two different floods here, a flood due to the melting of glaciers which threatened Gobekli Tepe and its prediction of a later flood that was global?
If this is the case you run into the same problem as I explained to another poster, the dates when this global flood occurred as recorded by different cultures and civilizations do not line up.
I am not saying the glacial flood is the Biblical flood. I am proposing possible floods that may account for the Flood legends of different cultures. If the glacial flood happened around 12,000 years ago then this may be the one cultures refer to as it had to be a big flood that would at least cover much of the areas they lived in. Such as around the northern hemisphere coming down into the Middle East, Asia and North America.
You were also making the claim Gobekli Tepe is an example of an older civilization.

"Archeologist use to say that the birth of civilization happened around 6,000 years ago around Mesopotamia. Yet we are finding advanced cultures like Göbekli Tepe all over the globe which go back 12,000 to 20,000 years ago."

Gobekli Tepe is clearly not an example of an older civilization, it was not a site of urban development like the city of Ur in Mesopotamia, a writing system was not developed and tribal structures had not evolved into social classes such as leaders, artisans and farmers.
Göbekli Tepe is only a tempe. So we don't know where they lived as yet. But other cultures have been found like in South American where vast cities have been discovered going back 8 to 20,000 years.

But I am not talking about large cities or civilizations. I am saying that the level of knowledge and religion was more advanced that archeologists thought and at a similar level and if not more advanced when you consider the monoliths and structures they built which are on par with Egypt which came much later.

These are not the work on some Hunter gatherers but much more organised. More cities are being dicovered under the sea which makes sense because if there was a big flood then there should be evidence along coast lines of ancient cities now submerged.

What is even more perplexing your Wiki link on Gobekli Tepe which I quoted makes it clear the site fell out of use with the introduction of agriculture and animal husbandry.
You are contradicting your link.
That can't be right as the they found many animal bones around the site. In fact 1,000s. So they were already working with animals. We don't know what happened to them like the other cites. But to have such organisation would suggest they also organised their communities.

 
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stevevw

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Are you saying that cultures which build temples have a "better" religion than cultures which do not?
No but building temples is a sign of more sophisticated religion, But its not just the temples. Its also whats depicted on the pillars of the temples that show a more complex belief system about animal and cosmic spirits as well as astrology.
What evidence do you have that the culture disappeared? In my example of the Mayans, the Mayans didn't disappear, their culture didn't disappear--the Mayan people and their culture exist to this day. They just, for one reason or another, had no further use for the elaborate stone structures they had built so they were abandoned.
But the they also abandoned entire cities than held 10,s of 1,000s of people. In fact it is said that there was a population of around 10 to 20 million people throughout the Amazon at this time.

All taken by the jungle now. Massive pyramids and monoliths that rival Egypt. There was a complex culture around 10,000 plus years ago. Why would they then abandon this and go back to living like hunter gathers or simple farmers.
 
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BCP1928

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No but building temples is a sign of more sophisticated religion, But its not just the temples. Its also whats depicted on the pillars of the temples that show a more complex belief system about animal and cosmic spirits as well as astrology.
How do you know that they didn't believe in those same animal and cosmic spirits before they built a temple--perhaps a long time before?
But the they also abandoned entire cities than held 10,s of 1,000s of people. In fact it is said that there was a population of around 10 to 20 million people throughout the Amazon at this time.

All taken by the jungle now. Massive pyramids and monoliths that rival Egypt. There was a complex culture around 10,000 plus years ago. Why would they then abandon this and go back to living like hunter gathers or simple farmers.
What else are they supposed to do? If life in a city is no longer sustainable, for whatever reason, they go back to doing what most of the people have been doing all along anyway.
 
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Astrid

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How do you know that they didn't believe in those same animal and cosmic spirits before they built a temple--perhaps a long time before?

What else are they supposed to do? If life in a city is no longer sustainable, for whatever reason, they go back to doing what most of the people have been doing all along anyway.
Probably the people managed to overthrow
the despotic theocracy that forced them to
construct those hugely costly and useless
pyramids.

Free people don’t do megalith structures to
while away their time.

The Tibetan theocracy is finally dead but
theres others that need the same.
 
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Astrid

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By your logic Australian aboriginals have a lower level of religion because they did not construct temples to worship their spirits and ancestors.

The Egyptian god Horus was worshipped in predynastic times before the dawn of Egyptian civilization, Egyptians of this period were into animism and nature worship while Horus the falcon god transitioned to the pharaonic Egypt period.
Does this mean the predynastic Egyptians had a lower level of religion compared to their later counterparts who built temples to worship gods like Horus; I don’t think so.

Now I am confused this is what you wrote.

"But if some big disater like the melting of glaziers around the last Ice age 12,000 years ago then it would put cultures like Gobekli Tepe right around the time of the flood. In fact some scholars say some of the despictions at Gobekli Tepe predicted the flood. It makes some sense that Gobekli Tepe is preflood as many of these ancient cultures were abandoned in tact and buried deep under sediments."

Are there two different floods here, a flood due to the melting of glaciers which threatened Gobekli Tepe and its prediction of a later flood that was global?
If this is the case you run into the same problem as I explained to another poster, the dates when this global flood occurred as recorded by different cultures and civilizations do not line up.

You were also making the claim Gobekli Tepe is an example of an older civilization.

"Archeologist use to say that the birth of civilization happened around 6,000 years ago around Mesopotamia. Yet we are finding advanced cultures like Göbekli Tepe all over the globe which go back 12,000 to 20,000 years ago."

Gobekli Tepe is clearly not an example of an older civilization, it was not a site of urban development like the city of Ur in Mesopotamia, a writing system was not developed and tribal structures had not evolved into social classes such as leaders, artisans and farmers.

What is even more perplexing your Wiki link on Gobekli Tepe which I quoted makes it clear the site fell out of use with the introduction of agriculture and animal husbandry.
You are contradicting your link.
Threads do tend to wander but if I may, to point it back toward the topic,
whivh was one of the many disproofs of “ flood”.

As there was no flood, how it affected religion and cities is kind of
a silly discussion.
 
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BCP1928

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No but building temples is a sign of more sophisticated religion, But its not just the temples. Its also whats depicted on the pillars of the temples that show a more complex belief system about animal and cosmic spirits as well as astrology.
It seems to me that a truly sophisticated religion would require no temples. You need to be paying more attention to what the man behind the curtain is doing.
 
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Astrid

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It seems to me that a truly sophisticated religion would require no temples. You need to be paying more attention to what the man behind the curtain is doing.
What do you mean by sophisticated?

Your friend seems to think it means more complicated.
 
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BCP1928

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What do you mean by sophisticated?
Religion feeds on faith to establish social order. It seems to me that the more sophisticated religion is the more it should be able to do so without a lot of expensive physical infrastructure.
Your friend seems to think it means more complicated.
I think you will find in the end that he means more like Western Christianity.
 
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sjastro

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This is a logical fallacy of false comparison. The beliefs that prehistoric humans had was primitive. It was the first signs of belief with simple practices like placing an item in the grave when buried. Thats compared to the complex religion of cultures like at Gobekli Tepe where they had got to the point of creating temples and spirits and a whole range of practices.

Aboriginal peoples had sophisticated beliefs of the Dreamtime which was way more than simple placement to a tool in a grave. Aboriginals don't make monuments they use nature, rocks, billabongs and landmarks as their temples. The point is they advanced their beliefs from the simple practices to include these things.
And what is the point you are trying to make?

Irrespective of how far Aboriginal peoples "advanced their beliefs" before we largely destroyed their cultures by trying to convert them into good Christians following a Western culture, we had a first hand view of hunter gatherer Palaeolithic/Mesolithic type cultures representative of what you would describe as being primitive.

Yet by your own admission for the reasons given their beliefs were sophisticated which highlights the folly of defining their ‘level of religion’ as being lower as they did not construct temples.
I am not saying the glacial flood is the Biblical flood. I am proposing possible floods that may account for the Flood legends of different cultures. If the glacial flood happened around 12,000 years ago then this may be the one cultures refer to as it had to be a big flood that would at least cover much of the areas they lived in. Such as around the northern hemisphere coming down into the Middle East, Asia and North America.
I did not suggest the glacial flood was Biblical nor any other flood that followed.
Are you not alluding to the idea these post floods were catastrophic events wiping out civilizations in the process which incidentally is not supported by evidence.
Göbekli Tepe is only a tempe. So we don't know where they lived as yet. But other cultures have been found like in South American where vast cities have been discovered going back 8 to 20,000 years.
This is factually wrong.
Göbekli Tepe was a centre for ritual and communal activities when hunter gathering existed. Archaeologists have not found evidence of residential structures or permanent settlement at the site for the obvious reason hunter gatherers, did not live in permanently built structures.

There were no vast cities in South America dating 8-20,000 years ago, one of the oldest known complexes in South America, is Caral in Peru, dates back to around 4,500 years ago.
But I am not talking about large cities or civilizations. I am saying that the level of knowledge and religion was more advanced that archeologists thought and at a similar level and if not more advanced when you consider the monoliths and structures they built which are on par with Egypt which came much later.
Despite the fact in your previous paragraph, you were referring to non-existent vast cities in South America older than those in Mesopotamia.

Here is something else to consider, in the first three centuries of Christianity’s existence no churches were built in the Roman empire, Christians assembled in private homes appropriately named ‘Home Churches’ as the religion at various times was declared illegal in the empire.
It was only after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire that churches as public buildings came into existence.

By your logic the ‘level of religion’ of Christianity increased as a result despite the fact from a theological perspective the basic principles of Christianity remained unchanged.
These are not the work on some Hunter gatherers but much more organised. More cities are being dicovered under the sea which makes sense because if there was a big flood then there should be evidence along coast lines of ancient cities now submerged.

This is straight out quote mining which does not support any of your statements.

The first link requires a subscription but referring to other references the oldest sites are 2500 years old, far younger than your supposed 8-20,000 year old vast cities.
The second link is of a submerged monolith which is not a city while the third is of a stonewall, likewise not a city, with the added information it was “likely built by hunter gatherer groups”
That can't be right as the they found many animal bones around the site. In fact 1,000s. So they were already working with animals. We don't know what happened to them like the other cites. But to have such organisation would suggest they also organised their communities.

Once again more quote mining, like the wiki link it contradicts your argument as it states explicitly the hunter gatherer culture at Gobeki Tepe was abandoned to be replaced by settlements along with the introduction of crops and domesticated animals.

An important point needs to be made here civilizations imply the existence of agriculture and animal domestication but the converse is not true. Civilization came after the introduction of agriculture and domestication as evidenced by the Neolithic age where the agricultural communities of the time were not considered cradles of civilization.
 
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sjastro

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Threads do tend to wander but if I may, to point it back toward the topic,
whivh was one of the many disproofs of “ flood”.

As there was no flood, how it affected religion and cities is kind of
a silly discussion.
To some literalists however the no flood scenario is an attack on religion.
I have no objection to people believing in the flood but when the science forum is used to defend the flood or YEC particularly when using misinformation about the science as served up by creationist sites such as AIG or ICR, it should scrutinized and criticized accordingly.
 
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Astrid

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To some literalists however the no flood scenario is an attack on religion.
I have no objection to people believing in the flood but when the science forum is used to defend the flood or YEC particularly when using misinformation about the science as served up by creationist sites such as AIG or ICR, it should scrutinized and criticized accordingly.
True.
it’s one side that’s silly not the info you
present.
The flood - insisters are So like my uncle, late of the Red Guard
who is still such an ardent Maoist.

Carry on the good work.
 
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BCP1928

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Threads do tend to wander but if I may, to point it back toward the topic,
whivh was one of the many disproofs of “ flood”.

As there was no flood, how it affected religion and cities is kind of
a silly discussion.
One "disproof" of The Flood" boils down to how come nobody noticed? I believe that what Steve is trying to do is identify a gap or discontinuity in the course of human civilization at the relevant time period, based on what he conceives to be unexplained developments in religion and technology.
 
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