Where are the current ripples from Noah's Flood?

[Piers Plowman]

That seems very foolish of him. God could have saved himself a great deal of trouble if he had drowned everybody, Noah and his family included. There would have been no need of the crucifixion of Jesus, no heresy hunts or witch hunts, and no necessity of creating a new heaven and a new earth.

Your attitude is pretty much why angels don't cater to your nihilism

 

[Piers Plowman]

Revelation 6:12 shows no more understanding of the causes of eclipses than the lizard/moon story.

And you care about the causes of eclipses because... why?

 

[Astrid]

Reality? A solar eclipse and a lunar eclipse happening at the same time? brings with it a t

No it is not that what is real doesn't matter to me, and other Christians who believe as I do. It's simply that believing in Almighty God brings with it a different view of what is real than one has without such a belief. In view of the fact that these are Christian forums, it should surprise you that many here do believe what the bible says.

Consider well if it’s your own infallible interpretation, or
Almighty God you believe when you take your own
“ view” of what the god you believe in set right in front of you.

That is exactly not caring what’s real!

Are you even denying the existence of polar ice?

 

[Piers Plowman]

Consider well if it’s your own infallible interpretation, or
Almighty God you believe when you take your own
“ view” of what the god you believe in set right in front of you.

That is exactly not caring what’s real!

Are you even denying the existence of polar ice?

I think you have way too much faith in your personal perception of reality.

 

[CoreyD]

Hypothetical question:

If all religious texts and religious knowledge disappeared from reality tomorrow, what reason(s) would humans have to believe a global flood occurred within the span of human existence?

Tomorrow cannot erase what is in one's brain.
People are in prison, whom have not seen a religious text, in decades. They haven't stopped believing in what they read.

A better hypothetical would be, if there was never a religious text, in the first place, would humans even believe a global flood occurred within the span of human existence?
The answer would depend on man, and how thing "played out".
Would there be any recordings at all?

For example, would there be people who recorded any event in history? Would people only write myths? Why do myths exist, anyway? Did people just wake up one morning and decide to write a story, or are people writing stories based on their own experience, and what they see?
True, some do write things that are only imagined, but that is not how everyone writes. Some write what they actually know.

If nobody wrote what they actually know, then we only have what modern day experts tell us, from the research done through the study we call science... which isn't actually history, but a story itself, put together to fill in the gap that no one has ever recorded.
Would that not be myth itself?

For example, was there really a big bang?
The Myth Of The Beginning Of Time
String theory suggests that the BIG BANG was not the origin of the universe but simply the outcome of a preexisting state

Beginning in the 1970s, scientists started identifying some puzzles surrounding the Big Bang... There really was a Universe before the hot Big Bang, and some very strong evidence from the 21st century truly proves that it’s so.

The documents making up our Bible today, are actually recordings of events in history, by people living in the past. If we erase all recordings, and depend on people to use extrapolation, interpretations, inferences, assumptions, and ideas, it is quite likely we will live our entire lives believing something, but not knowing if it is the truth or not.

When we have records, which are a primary source of evidence, and secondary sources can verify it, we have something we can be sure of. That is better than explanations that are favored, which people.. including scientists themselves, question.
Records actually help archaeologist to know where to look, and this saves the taking hundreds of years to find answers... answers which may be wrong.

If no record of a global flood were made, people would have no reason to contend that there was, or there was not.

 

[CoreyD]

Are you saying that the Jews had no tradition of scriptural interpretation?

The Bible itself does not contain such.
In the Hebrew scriptures...
The Israelites were required to carry out the ordinances God gave to Moses, to write down for the people.
The only thing needing to be done, was to teach it. 2 Chronicles 15:3; 2 Chronicles 17:7-9; Ezra 7:10
Of course, if the audience is made up of youth, having a good teacher to explain so that they understand clearly, is important. Nehemiah 8:1-15

When Jesus came on the scene, the teachers of Israel were corrupt, and Jesus had a lot of teaching and explaining to do, for those who were "distressed and scattered, as sheep not having a shepherd" (Matthew 9:36).

Jesus would also explain things to his disciples, which were related to prophecy, which does require interpreting.
Yes, Jews today have various interpretations, but this did not exist among the Israelite. There were not various sects, until about 300 years before the Messiah was born.

Yes, the tradition that the scriptures are the literal and inerrant, perspicuous and self-interpreting product of plenary verbal inspiration is definitely a modern invention.

Where did you get that from?
Jesus and his apostles quoted from the Hebrew scriptures repeatedly, in their ministry, and they viewed it as the inerrant word of God. John 17:17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13
They certainly viewed it as self-explanatory. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; Hebrews 4:12

Of course, to understand it in its entirety, you need to be taught, but it is simple to understand. John 6:45; Matthew 13:16; Luke 10:21
What may appear difficult, is realized to be so simple, with the help of a teacher.

Why did you place the word literal in there? Everything in the Bible is not literal, but neither is everything figurative. Even Jesus and his apostles knew this.
They made references to sheep so often, one would think they had a farm, but neither of them referred to literal sheep, and they used such scriptures from the Hebrew scriptures, as well. Isaiah 53:6, 7; Matthew 10:6

You don't know very much about the Bible, do you?
Did you switch from Christianity at some point, that you assume to know what the Bible actually contains?

 

[BCP1928]

The Bible itself does not contain such.
In the Hebrew scriptures...
The Israelites were required to carry out the ordinances God gave to Moses, to write down for the people.
The only thing needing to be done, was to teach it. 2 Chronicles 15:3; 2 Chronicles 17:7-9; Ezra 7:10
Of course, if the audience is made up of youth, having a good teacher to explain so that they understand clearly, is important. Nehemiah 8:1-15

When Jesus came on the scene, the teachers of Israel were corrupt, and Jesus had a lot of teaching and explaining to do, for those who were "distressed and scattered, as sheep not having a shepherd" (Matthew 9:36).

Jesus would also explain things to his disciples, which were related to prophecy, which does require interpreting.
Yes, Jews today have various interpretations, but this did not exist among the Israelite. There were not various sects, until about 300 years before the Messiah was born.


Where did you get that from?

Perhaps you prefer the Chicago Statement. Or is that not rigorous enough for you?

Jesus and his apostles quoted from the Hebrew scriptures repeatedly, in their ministry, and they viewed it as the inerrant word of God. John 17:17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13
They certainly viewed it as self-explanatory. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; Hebrews 4:12

Of course, to understand it in its entirety, you need to be taught, but it is simple to understand. John 6:45; Matthew 13:16; Luke 10:21
What may appear difficult, is realized to be so simple, with the help of a teacher.

Why did you place the word literal in there? Everything in the Bible is not literal, but neither is everything figurative. Even Jesus and his apostles knew this.
They made references to sheep so often, one would think they had a farm, but neither of them referred to literal sheep, and they used such scriptures from the Hebrew scriptures, as well. Isaiah 53:6, 7; Matthew 10:6

It appears that you still may be using "literal" as if it meant "actual."

You don't know very much about the Bible, do you?
Did you switch from Christianity at some point, that you assume to know what the Bible actually contains?

You remind me of another of our colleagues on CF, a biblical creationist who argued that the ante Nicene Fathers secretly believed in Sola Scriptura but were forced by the authorities to teach something else.

 

[sjastro]

Tomorrow cannot erase what is in one's brain.
People are in prison, whom have not seen a religious text, in decades. They haven't stopped believing in what they read.

A better hypothetical would be, if there was never a religious text, in the first place, would humans even believe a global flood occurred within the span of human existence?
The answer would depend on man, and how thing "played out".
Would there be any recordings at all?

For example, would there be people who recorded any event in history? Would people only write myths? Why do myths exist, anyway? Did people just wake up one morning and decide to write a story, or are people writing stories based on their own experience, and what they see?
True, some do write things that are only imagined, but that is not how everyone writes. Some write what they actually know.

If nobody wrote what they actually know, then we only have what modern day experts tell us, from the research done through the study we call science... which isn't actually history, but a story itself, put together to fill in the gap that no one has ever recorded.
Would that not be myth itself?

For example, was there really a big bang?
The Myth Of The Beginning Of Time
String theory suggests that the BIG BANG was not the origin of the universe but simply the outcome of a preexisting state

Beginning in the 1970s, scientists started identifying some puzzles surrounding the Big Bang... There really was a Universe before the hot Big Bang, and some very strong evidence from the 21st century truly proves that it’s so.

The documents making up our Bible today, are actually recordings of events in history, by people living in the past. If we erase all recordings, and depend on people to use extrapolation, interpretations, inferences, assumptions, and ideas, it is quite likely we will live our entire lives believing something, but not knowing if it is the truth or not.

When we have records, which are a primary source of evidence, and secondary sources can verify it, we have something we can be sure of. That is better than explanations that are favored, which people.. including scientists themselves, question.
Records actually help archaeologist to know where to look, and this saves the taking hundreds of years to find answers... answers which may be wrong.

If no record of a global flood were made, people would have no reason to contend that there was, or there was not.

Ignoring the irrelevant subject of the Big Bang, civilizations and nomadic cultures existed around river systems so it is not surprising written stories and oral traditions passed onto succeeding generations may have referred to real floods in the distant past.
If @CoreyD wants to make the case for a great flood then it would have occurred at the same time around the planet.

Yet the evidence shows floods were local and occurred at different times.

 

[stevevw]

I am very interested in the Flood cultures around the world. Theres this common story about a flood that represented a reset of some sort for humankind to to with God or the gods. So something big happened for people to tell such stories.

Some say it could be associated with the last iceage and a natural disaster that melted the ice. It seems strange that recorded history seems to disappear for a bit and then reappear with fairly advanced societies around the globe at around about the same time.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I am very interested in the Flood cultures around the world. Theres this common story about a flood that represented a reset of some sort for humankind to to with God or the gods. So something big happened for people to tell such stories.

Some say it could be associated with the last iceage and a natural disaster that melted the ice. It seems strange that recorded history seems to disappear for a bit and then reappear with fairly advanced societies around the globe at around about the same time.

It very much DOESN'T suddenly disappear and then reappear more advanced. That's not what history shows at all.

 

[BCP1928]

It very much DOESN'T suddenly disappear and then reappear more advanced. That's not what history shows at all.

I'm not even sure how you would measure "more advanced."

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I'm not even sure how you would measure "more advanced."

That is another thing, sure. But the main point still stands: Recorded history doesn't just disappear and then reappear in those locations.

 

[Astrid]

I am very interested in the Flood cultures around the world. Theres this common story about a flood that represented a reset of some sort for humankind to to with God or the gods. So something big happened for people to tell such stories.

Some say it could be associated with the last iceage and a natural disaster that melted the ice. It seems strange that recorded history seems to disappear for a bit and then reappear with fairly advanced societies around the globe at around about the same time.

its a sign of actual interest if a
person studies a subject instead
of just making things up
and then believing them.

 

[stevevw]

It very much DOESN'T suddenly disappear and then reappear more advanced. That's not what history shows at all.

Not suddenlt disappear as in overnight. But on the time scales of human history of the type that has advanced architextual and religious knowledge I think so. Archeologist use to say that the birth of civilization happened around 6,000 years ago around Mesopotamia. Yet we are finding advanced cultures like Göbekli Tepe all over the globe which go back 12,000 to 20,000 years ago.

Before these ancient cultures theres little evidence of the evolution of such cultures. We were hunters and gatherers and it seems a fairly quick transition into advanced societies with abilities to build these massive structures that seem to crop up around the same time all over the globe. According to the mainstream belief people at this time were not suppose to be that advanced.

It makes sense that if there was a widely dispersed disaster os some sort that wiped out much of the earths population or most of the northern hemiphere then those who soon came after to rebuild their culture would recreate a new level of knowledge around the same time in many locations.

It seems a pretty big coincident that many cultures had the same tech and level of religious belief at around the same time.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Not suddenlt disappear as in overnight. But on the time scales of human history of the type that has advanced architextual and religious knowledge I think so. Archeologist use to say that the birth of civilization happened around 6,000 years ago around Mesopotamia. Yet we are finding advanced cultures like Göbekli Tepe all over the globe which go back 12,000 to 20,000 years ago.

Before these ancient cultures theres little evidence of the evolution of such cultures. We were hunters and gatherers and it seems a fairly quick transition into advanced societies with abilities to build these massive structures that seem to crop up around the same time all over the globe. According to the mainstream belief people at this time were not suppose to be that advanced.

It makes sense that if there was a widely dispersed disaster os some sort that wiped out much of the earths population or most of the northern hemiphere then those who soon came after to rebuild their culture would recreate a new level of knowledge around the same time in many locations.

It seems a pretty big coincident that many cultures had the same tech and level of religious belief at around the same time.

And that's evidence for a global flood... how?

Also, please: define 'advanced'.

 

[BCP1928]

Not suddenlt disappear as in overnight. But on the time scales of human history of the type that has advanced architextual and religious knowledge I think so. Archeologist use to say that the birth of civilization happened around 6,000 years ago around Mesopotamia. Yet we are finding advanced cultures like Göbekli Tepe all over the globe which go back 12,000 to 20,000 years ago.

Before these ancient cultures theres little evidence of the evolution of such cultures. We were hunters and gatherers and it seems a fairly quick transition into advanced societies with abilities to build these massive structures that seem to crop up around the same time all over the globe. According to the mainstream belief people at this time were not suppose to be that advanced.

You are speculating well ahead of the data. The recent discoveries of city-state "civilizations" older than the Mesopotamian, are just that--recent. There is no reason to conclude that we have come to the end of them. Further, it is at least clear that these civilizations did not arise directly from hunter-gatherer groups, but arose from sedentary agriculturalist societies.

It makes sense that if there was a widely dispersed disaster os some sort that wiped out much of the earths population or most of the northern hemiphere then those who soon came after to rebuild their culture would recreate a new level of knowledge around the same time in many locations.

It seems a pretty big coincident that many cultures had the same tech and level of religious belief at around the same time.

We have no idea what the political organization or the religion of these societies was, but they were clearly not all the same. Some of the sites show no evidence of elite political and priestly castes, being without temples or palaces.

 

[Astrid]

Not suddenlt disappear as in overnight. But on the time scales of human history of the type that has advanced architextual and religious knowledge I think so. Archeologist use to say that the birth of civilization happened around 6,000 years ago around Mesopotamia. Yet we are finding advanced cultures like Göbekli Tepe all over the globe which go back 12,000 to 20,000 years ago.

Before these ancient cultures theres little evidence of the evolution of such cultures. We were hunters and gatherers and it seems a fairly quick transition into advanced societies with abilities to build these massive structures that seem to crop up around the same time all over the globe. According to the mainstream belief people at this time were not suppose to be that advanced.

It makes sense that if there was a widely dispersed disaster os some sort that wiped out much of the earths population or most of the northern hemiphere then those who soon came after to rebuild their culture would recreate a new level of knowledge around the same time in many locations.

It seems a pretty big coincident that many cultures had the same tech and level of religious belief at around the same time.

Like the big coincidence that world wide everyone uses traffic lights.

 

[stevevw]

You are speculating well ahead of the data. The recent discoveries of city-state "civilizations" older than the Mesopotamian, are just that--recent. There is no reason to conclude that we have come to the end of them. Further, it is at least clear that these civilizations did not arise directly from hunter-gatherer groups, but arose from sedentary agriculturalist societies.

Its not so much that they may have arisen from sedentary lifestyles but that the had that level of organisation and religious belief so long ago, well before archeologist had claimed.

If they had that level of sophistication back then then how can we explain the lag in time between then and the cultures we find later in Mesopotamia.

We have no idea what the political organization or the religion of these societies was, but they were clearly not all the same. Some of the sites show no evidence of elite political and priestly castes, being without temples or palaces.

Are you sure. As far as I understand they all display some sort of religious belief. They buried their dead as though they believed in an afterlife. They all seem to look to the stars and most had some sort of animal symbols as some sort of spirit of worship. Well before scientist tought. Most also had monoliths and their structures were laaaaid out in particular ways that resembled some sort of place of spiritual worship. I think perhaps mainly Pagan.

 

[stevevw]

Like the big coincidence that world wide everyone uses traffic lights.

Well like traffic lights electric light was discovered and then spread. It wasn't discovered in 10 places around the same time in different parts of the world.

Especially when your talking about for example precise cutting of large monolith stones and then moving them into position. Why that particular size. It would be logical to use smaller stones.

Also especially having fundementally similar beliefs. From memory there are similar symbols structures across different cultures in different locations all around the same time. This is when it would have been impossible to share that in such a short time considering the distance and isolation of the different cultures.

If it is a common set of beliefs and knowledge then it was something around that time that caused people to have that mindset and consciousness at the same time. That is usually the result of some world event or common consciousness due to similar experiences.;

 

[Piers Plowman]

Ignoring the irrelevant subject of the Big Bang, civilizations and nomadic cultures existed around river systems so it is not surprising written stories and oral traditions passed onto succeeding generations may have referred to real floods in the distant past.
If @CoreyD wants to make the case for a great flood then it would have occurred at the same time around the planet.

Yet the evidence shows floods were local and occurred at different times.

View attachment 356589​

Actually, such disparate range of estimated dating in reality point toward the organic nature of such oral transmissions of the ancient deluge event. And unsurprisingly so-- these cultures listed above did not appear simultaneously with each other. As each culture split off from the earlier ones, it would only make sense for them to develop their own take on common oral traditions, with different memories of the precise dating of significant events.
As for the 'local' vs 'global' part... it only makes sense for each cultures to focus their viewpoint on their geographic point on the earth. It's not like the native american culture of the mississippi would concern themselves very much as to whether the flood they experienced was also experienced by folks residing in, say, mesopotamia. Assuming that they even had an inkling of an idea that an entirely different continent from theirs existed, inhabited by entirely different culture.
In this case of differences in oral tradition, It doesn't matter as to if you subscribe to 'evolutionary' mindset or 'creationist' mindset. Both mindset has to deal with the fact that cradle of civilization of current humanity began at some point in time someplace near northern africa, and that ~200 nationalities which exist today (along with their each respective past predecessive cultures!) all are mere branches from that cradle. Which raises the question as to why different cultures in past centuries/millennia were recorded as to having to actually explore different oceans and continents just to realize that entirely different cultures existed there. We simply don't remember each other's ancestors.
You cannot expect them to have near-identical timeline and memories of past events, regardless of the impact of said events.