Where are the current ripples from Noah's Flood?

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Its not so much that they may have arisen from sedentary lifestyles but that the had that level of organisation and religious belief so long ago, well before archeologist had claimed.

If they had that level of sophistication back then then how can we explain the lag in time between then and the cultures we find later in Mesopotamia.

Are you sure. As far as I understand they all display some sort of religious belief. They buried their dead as though they believed in an afterlife. They all seem to look to the stars and most had some sort of animal symbols as some sort of spirit of worship. Well before scientist tought. Most also had monoliths and their structures were laaaaid out in particular ways that resembled some sort of place of spiritual worship. I think perhaps mainly Pagan.

I really don't get what you're trying to claim: that ancient people had organizations and religions in their own way, therefore the global flood as described in the Bible was a factual event?

You haven't even backed up your claim of "recorded history seems to disappear for a bit and then reappear with fairly advanced societies around the globe at around about the same time."

 

[BCP1928]

Its not so much that they may have arisen from sedentary lifestyles but that the had that level of organisation and religious belief so long ago, well before archeologist had claimed.

If they had that level of sophistication back then then how can we explain the lag in time between then and the cultures we find later in Mesopotamia.

What time lag?

Are you sure. As far as I understand they all display some sort of religious belief.

Quite possibly, but you don't know what it was

They buried their dead as though they believed in an afterlife.

A human practice at least 100,000 years old.

They all seem to look to the stars and most had some sort of animal symbols as some sort of spirit of worship. Well before scientist tought. Most also had monoliths and their structures were laaaaid out in particular ways that resembled some sort of place of spiritual worship. I think perhaps mainly Pagan.

What "scientists" are these? The staff archaeologists at the National Inqulrer?

 

[Astrid]

Actually, such disparate range of estimated dating in reality point toward the organic nature of such oral transmissions of the ancient deluge event. And unsurprisingly so-- these cultures listed above did not appear simultaneously with each other. As each culture split off from the earlier ones, it would only make sense for them to develop their own take on common oral traditions, with different memories of the precise dating of significant events.
As for the 'local' vs 'global' part... it only makes sense for each cultures to focus their viewpoint on their geographic point on the earth. It's not like the native american culture of the mississippi would concern themselves very much as to whether the flood they experienced was also experienced by folks residing in, say, mesopotamia. Assuming that they even had an inkling of an idea that an entirely different continent from theirs existed, inhabited by entirely different culture.
In this case of differences in oral tradition, It doesn't matter as to if you subscribe to 'evolutionary' mindset or 'creationist' mindset. Both mindset has to deal with the fact that cradle of civilization of current humanity began at some point in time someplace near northern africa, and that ~200 nationalities which exist today (along with their each respective past predecessive cultures!) all are mere branches from that cradle. Which raises the question as to why different cultures in past centuries/millennia were recorded as to having to actually explore different oceans and continents just to realize that entirely different cultures existed there. We simply don't remember each other's ancestors.
You cannot expect them to have near-identical timeline and memories of past events, regardless of the impact of said events.

Only the most blind and rigid mindset
would insist on flood despite the
existence of polar ice.

 

[Astrophile]

I was thinking... and I wouldn't see a post like this.

God is supposed to be omniscient. Since He knows everything, He must have known beforehand that Noah and his descendants would go to the bad, would commit even worse crimes than their antedilluvian ancestors, and, in particular, that they would inflict the great evils of drunkenness and slavery on the world. Why, since He must have known this, did God enable Noah and his family to survive the flood?

 

[sjastro]

Actually, such disparate range of estimated dating in reality point toward the organic nature of such oral transmissions of the ancient deluge event. And unsurprisingly so-- these cultures listed above did not appear simultaneously with each other. As each culture split off from the earlier ones, it would only make sense for them to develop their own take on common oral traditions, with different memories of the precise dating of significant events.
As for the 'local' vs 'global' part... it only makes sense for each cultures to focus their viewpoint on their geographic point on the earth. It's not like the native american culture of the mississippi would concern themselves very much as to whether the flood they experienced was also experienced by folks residing in, say, mesopotamia. Assuming that they even had an inkling of an idea that an entirely different continent from theirs existed, inhabited by entirely different culture.
In this case of differences in oral tradition, It doesn't matter as to if you subscribe to 'evolutionary' mindset or 'creationist' mindset. Both mindset has to deal with the fact that cradle of civilization of current humanity began at some point in time someplace near northern africa, and that ~200 nationalities which exist today (along with their each respective past predecessive cultures!) all are mere branches from that cradle. Which raises the question as to why different cultures in past centuries/millennia were recorded as to having to actually explore different oceans and continents just to realize that entirely different cultures existed there. We simply don't remember each other's ancestors.
You cannot expect them to have near-identical timeline and memories of past events, regardless of the impact of said events.

Where on earth did you come up with the idea the cradle of civilization originated in north Africa from which subsequent cultures and civilizations branched off from?
The facts are there were various cradles of civilizations formed independently and at different times.

The common denominator with these cradles of civilization they were formed around river systems which being prone to flooding adds weight to the argument flood stories were based on regional not global flooding.

Furthermore ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia were aware of each others existence, in 2350 BC the traditional date of the Biblical flood, the region around Tigris and Euphrates rivers was occupied by the Akkadian empire while Egypt was transitioning from the 5th to 6th dynasties.
The Akkadians had the Epic of Gilgamesh as their flood story, in Egypt Nile floods were recorded as annual events which by this time were reducing in frequency and intensity due to climate change and ultimately led to the collapse of the Old Kingdom some 200 years later.

It is most unusual for these two regions being geographically close and connected to each other through common trade in regions such as the Levant would come up with very different versions for the flood unless the floods were purely regional events.

​

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread had a clean up of some flaming and disruptive posts.

Also, if you are aware that a word is considered especially vulgar or profane to those outside the US, don't use it.​

 

[Piers Plowman]

Where on earth did you come up with the idea the cradle of civilization originated in north Africa from which subsequent cultures and civilizations branched off from?
The facts are there were various cradles of civilizations formed independently and at different times.

View attachment 356608​

The common denominator with these cradles of civilization they were formed around river systems which being prone to flooding adds weight to the argument flood stories were based on regional not global flooding.

Furthermore ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia were aware of each others existence, in 2350 BC the traditional date of the Biblical flood, the region around Tigris and Euphrates rivers was occupied by the Akkadian empire while Egypt was transitioning from the 5th to 6th dynasties.
The Akkadians had the Epic of Gilgamesh as their flood story, in Egypt Nile floods were recorded as annual events which by this time were reducing in frequency and intensity due to climate change and ultimately led to the collapse of the Old Kingdom some 200 years later.

It is most unusual for these two regions being geographically close and connected to each other through common trade in regions such as the Levant would come up with very different versions for the flood unless the floods were purely regional events.

​

Sorry, but none of these words above have any implications against the global flood.

I am interested in seeing your responses to the following:

Where on earth did you come up with the idea the cradle of civilization originated in north Africa from which subsequent cultures and civilizations branched off from?

You tell me as to where human beings in Americas and East Asia originated from.

Furthermore ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia were aware of each others existence,

Obviously, seeing that they are not far apart. Why didn't you go with my original example, between Americas and Mesopotamia?

It is most unusual for these two regions being geographically close and connected to each other through common trade in regions such as the Levant would come up with very different versions for the flood unless the floods were purely regional events.

Actually, it would require higher suspension of disbelief to accept the idea that all these cultures had exact same records with each other. That sort of accuracy is pretty much only found with immensely-meticulous Old Testament scribes.

 

[dlamberth]

You tell me as to where human beings in Americas and East Asia originated from.

The civilizations in the America's rose and developed in the America's on their own accord in their own time.

 

[stevevw]

I really don't get what you're trying to claim: that ancient people had organizations and religions in their own way, therefore the global flood as described in the Bible was a factual event?

You haven't even backed up your claim of "recorded history seems to disappear for a bit and then reappear with fairly advanced societies around the globe at around about the same time."

I am not making any claims. I am just putting forward past events that point to some large catastrophic event around 12 to 13,000 years ago. Such as the Younger Dryas hypothesis or the shutdown of the North Atlantic "Conveyor" where the glacial ice melted as a result of some natural disaster and flooded wide ares which lead to the extinction of the majority of Mega creatures and the Clovis peoples who were hunter gatherers.

Then later around 11,500 years ago we begin to see these cultures pop up around the world with a sophisticated level of tech and religious belief. Tech as in the megaliths and structures they build and the ability to cut and move such material as well as the tools and organisation of these cultures compared to what was before the Younger Dryas.

I think it is from these cultures that the idea of a global flood traces back to.

Multiple lines of evidence for possible Human population decline/settlement reorganization during the early Younger Dryas

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040618211002333?via%3Dihub

Human Y chromosome sequences from Q Haplogroup reveal a South American settlement pre-18,000 years ago and a profound genomic impact during the Younger Dryas

Human Y chromosome sequences from Q Haplogroup reveal a South American settlement pre-18,000 years ago and a profound genomic impact during the Younger Dryas

The settlement of the Americas has been the focus of incessant debate for more than 100 years, and open questions regarding the timing and spatial patterns of colonization still remain today. Phylogenetic studies with complete human Y chromosome sequences are used as a highly informative tool to...

journals.plos.org

Megafaunal extinctions

Pleistocene Epoch - Megafaunal Extinctions | Britannica

Pleistocene Epoch - Megafaunal Extinctions: The end of the Pleistocene was marked by the extinction of many genera of large mammals, including mammoths, mastodons, ground sloths, and giant beavers. The extinction event is most distinct in North America, where 32 genera of large mammals vanished...

www.britannica.com

 

[sjastro]

Sorry, but none of these words above have any implications against the global flood.

It certainly does have implications against a global flood particularly the claim made by @CoreyD that non-Biblical sources of the flood supports the Geneses account.
Where do think the dating of these various accounts come from, out of thin air?

What the science indicates through sediment analysis and its dating, archaeological discoveries, changes in climate by analysis of ice core samples, dendrochronology and astronomical records is that not only were there real floods behind these myths but they occurred at different times excluding the possibility they were one in the same flood.

I am interested in seeing your responses to the following:

You tell me as to where human beings in Americas and East Asia originated from.

Obviously, seeing that they are not far apart. Why didn't you go with my original example, between Americas and Mesopotamia?

You made the spurious claim of the cradle of civilization originated in north Africa which spread out to the other regions on the planet.
By definition a cradle of civilization is formed when there is a transition from a hunter/gatherer nomadic society to a non-nomadic one based on agriculture.
Not only were the original inhabitants of the Americas hunter/gatherer nomads but civilisation in the Americas formed thousands of years later and therefore no relationship exists between Mesopotamia and civilizations in the Americas.

Actually, it would require higher suspension of disbelief to accept the idea that all these cultures had exact same records with each other. That sort of accuracy is pretty much only found with immensely-meticulous Old Testament scribes.

One doesn’t require belief (or disbelief) when it is the evidence or rather the lack of it which leads to the conclusion.
The complete absence of sedimentation beyond the Nile valley and delta in Egypt indicates it was not part of a flood common with the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Mesopotamia anytime in history.

 

[BCP1928]

I am not making any claims. I am just putting forward past events that point to some large catastrophic event around 12 to 13,000 years ago. Such as the Younger Dryas hypothesis or the shutdown of the North Atlantic "Conveyor" where the glacial ice melted as a result of some natural disaster and flooded wide ares which lead to the extinction of the majority of Mega creatures and the Clovis peoples who were hunter gatherers.

Then later around 11,500 years ago we begin to see these cultures pop up around the world with a sophisticated level of tech and religious belief. Tech as in the megaliths and structures they build and the ability to cut and move such material as well as the tools and organisation of these cultures compared to what was before the Younger Dryas.

I think it is from these cultures that the idea of a global flood traces back to.

Multiple lines of evidence for possible Human population decline/settlement reorganization during the early Younger Dryas

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040618211002333?via%3Dihub

Human Y chromosome sequences from Q Haplogroup reveal a South American settlement pre-18,000 years ago and a profound genomic impact during the Younger Dryas

Human Y chromosome sequences from Q Haplogroup reveal a South American settlement pre-18,000 years ago and a profound genomic impact during the Younger Dryas

The settlement of the Americas has been the focus of incessant debate for more than 100 years, and open questions regarding the timing and spatial patterns of colonization still remain today. Phylogenetic studies with complete human Y chromosome sequences are used as a highly informative tool to...

journals.plos.org

Megafaunal extinctions

Pleistocene Epoch - Megafaunal Extinctions | Britannica

Pleistocene Epoch - Megafaunal Extinctions: The end of the Pleistocene was marked by the extinction of many genera of large mammals, including mammoths, mastodons, ground sloths, and giant beavers. The extinction event is most distinct in North America, where 32 genera of large mammals vanished...

www.britannica.com

That's all very well to say, but civilization doesn't just "pop up." A whole lot of basic technological development had to be done during the neolithic, before you start getting cities, palaces and temples. Work that was being done all over the world.

 

[BCP1928]

The civilizations in the America's rose and developed in the America's on their own accord in their own time.

I went down to the Yucatan recently to see what happened to the Mayans. Guess what? The Mayans are still there, They still think of themselves as Mayans, still speak the Mayan language, still go to work every day in the fields and as small-scale artisans just like they always have. The only thing missing are the elite ruling castes who once made them build the stone cities and temples which now lie abandoned in the jungle.

 

[CoreyD]

God is supposed to be omniscient. Since He knows everything, He must have known beforehand that Noah and his descendants would go to the bad, would commit even worse crimes than their antedilluvian ancestors, and, in particular, that they would inflict the great evils of drunkenness and slavery on the world. Why, since He must have known this, did God enable Noah and his family to survive the flood?

Does God know everything? Or does God choose to know what he wants?
The Bible tells us, that God does not know everything. Not that he cannot know, but he is selective about what he knows. He is in control. he is not controlled.

One example found in the Bible, is Genesis 22:12
The thing about God, is he allows people their freedom to exercise free will, so he does not peep into their future decisions, as if he need to, because they will do something beyond his ability to alter.

Nothing can stop God's purpose from being fulfilled, and this is what God seeks to know - the working out of his purpose. Hence why he could prophecy exactly what would happen to his son, from his birth, to his death.

 

[stevevw]

That's all very well to say, but civilization doesn't just "pop up." A whole lot of basic technological development had to be done during the neolithic, before you start getting cities, palaces and temples. Work that was being done all over the world.

Ok I am not saying they popped up overnight but that there seems to be a pretty big step in tech and beliefs from the hunter gatherer to these well organised cultures. From basic stone huts to giant monoliths. From little or no belief to sophisticated beliefs.

It makes sense in that if there was a massive disaster then people have to re-establish themselves and in doing so they would have been thinking differently about how to organise themselves. Thats when I think religious belief took a giant step forward and why many cultures had Flood stories and other myths. Especially gods and spirits around nature like the moon, stars, certain animals, the seasons and harvest.

The cultures I am talking about like Göbekli Tepe existed around 11,500 years ago even as early as 20,000 years ago before or at the beginning of the neolithic period. Thats the point. Archeologist thought that humans had learnt to formulate cultivation and form communities leading into the Mesopotamian period. They are discovering we were far more advanced than thought back then. Mesopotamia would have been the bigger version of what had already been happening for 1,000's of years.

I think if we relate this to the Biblical flood it seems to me that if there was a flood due to human kinds immorality they must have reach a certain level of sophistication for the civilisation to collapse and then reset. They could not have been hunters and gatherers as they had not yet reached that level of organisation to be concerned about immorality to the point of destroying themselves in flood myths.

Something major happened to early humans who had a fairly sophistical level of tech, knowledge and belief that they got to a point where that caused their own demise. Not tech as we know it but with the monoliths and ability to build such structures with precision and knowledge about the cosmos and a fairly sophisticated belief system similar to what we have in modern times.

This was by the way at a time when most mainstream scientist thought humans could not have such levels of knowhow and belief. That they were more or less prehistoric knuckleheads.

 

[Larniavc]

You tell me as to where human beings in Americas and East Asia originated from.

Africa. But the change from Hunter gather to settlement based society started in various places at various times throughout history.

 

[Larniavc]

Actually, it would require higher suspension of disbelief to accept the idea that all these cultures had exact same records with each other.

They don’t.

 

[Larniavc]

That sort of accuracy is pretty much only found with immensely-meticulous Old Testament scribes.

It’s not accurate though. Exodus has no evidence it happened. Stories of floods predate the Bible. Your position on the historicity of the Noachian flood inaccurate.

 

[Larniavc]

I went down to the Yucatan recently to see what happened to the Mayans. Guess what? The Mayans are still there, They still think of themselves as Mayans, still speak the Mayan language, still go to work every day in the fields and as small-scale artisans just like they always have. The only thing missing are the elite ruling castes who once made them build the stone cities and temples which now lie abandoned in the jungle.

That’s interesting. I honestly thought that the Spanish and Portuguese Catholics wiped them out.

 

[BCP1928]

Ok I am not saying they popped up overnight but that there seems to be a pretty big step in tech and beliefs from the hunter gatherer to these well organised cultures. From basic stone huts to giant monoliths. From little or no belief to sophisticated beliefs.

As to tech, the "step" appears to have taken many thousands of years and we are still not sure exactly how it proceeded. Of course, since you don't have any idea what their religious beliefs actually were, or what constitutes a "sophisticated" belief, that part of your statement is just moonshine.

It makes sense in that if there was a massive disaster then people have to re-establish themselves and in doing so they would have been thinking differently about how to organise themselves. Thats when I think religious belief took a giant step forward and why many cultures had Flood stories and other myths. Especially gods and spirits around nature like the moon, stars, certain animals, the seasons and harvest.

The cultures I am talking about like Göbekli Tepe existed around 11,500 years ago even as early as 20,000 years ago before or at the beginning of the neolithic period. Thats the point. Archeologist thought that humans had learnt to formulate cultivation and form communities leading into the Mesopotamian period. They are discovering we were far more advanced than thought back then. Mesopotamia would have been the bigger version of what had already been happening for 1,000's of years.

According to the article you quoted, Gobekli Tepe was in use from about 9500 to 8000 BC.

I think if we relate this to the Biblical flood it seems to me that if there was a flood due to human kinds immorality they must have reach a certain level of sophistication for the civilisation to collapse and then reset. They could not have been hunters and gatherers as they had not yet reached that level of organisation to be concerned about immorality to the point of destroying themselves in flood myths.

Something major happened to early humans who had a fairly sophistical level of tech, knowledge and belief that they got to a point where that caused their own demise. Not tech as we know it but with the monoliths and ability to build such structures with precision and knowledge about the cosmos and a fairly sophisticated belief system similar to what we have in modern times.

This was by the way at a time when most mainstream scientist thought humans could not have such levels of knowhow and belief. That they were more or less prehistoric knuckleheads.

But according to you they were religious knuckleheads. Maybe you're just as wrong.

 

[BCP1928]

That’s interesting. I honestly thought that the Spanish and Portuguese Catholics wiped them out.

As far as I know, the Mayan empire was busted by about the 10th century.