When Will Christ Return?

[eclipsenow]

The second coming already occurred (on Oct. 28th, 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds) We are now expirencing the 7 last plagues which must run their course, and then the third coming occurs.

heresy

 

[ViaCrucis]

I disagree. There is nothing in all of Scripture to indicate exactly what it will be like before the Lord returns. We have generic descriptions, not specific prescriptions. People will be selfish, will murder, will ignore the poor, will be rude to their parents, there will be natural disasters, etc. As there always has and always will be until the Lord returns.

Bingo.

Jesus didn't set out a road map. He gave us warning signs so that we would not be led astray by the things we hear and see.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Biblewriter]

I disagree. There is nothing in all of Scripture to indicate exactly what it will be like before the Lord returns. We have generic descriptions, not specific prescriptions. People will be selfish, will murder, will ignore the poor, will be rude to their parents, there will be natural disasters, etc. As there always has and always will be until the Lord returns.

We have been given a great many very specific details. We know, for instance, that before the end there will be a great collection of gold and silver somewhere in the Middle East. We know that Europe will be united under a single head, That Judah wil;; be back in her homeland, And that she will be surrounded by nations intend on destroying her. We know that these nations will include revivals of Egypt, the Philistines (Palestianians) Edom, Moab, and Ammon (Jordan) We also know that there will be a great world power in the homeland of the Scythians (Russia) and another very great power in the far east (China.)

We also know that Assyria (northern Iraq) and Babylon (southern Iraq) will be revived, along with Persia (Iran)

We are specifically told that Assyria (northern Iraq) will invade Israel, and are even given the daily progress of that invasion.

Those who are paying attention to Bible prophecy are told how to know when it is time to run, where to go when they have to run, and how many days to stay there.

All of this is revealed in explicitly stated prophecies. It is not derived from questionable interpretations of apocalyptic prophecies.

 

[JLB777]

We have been given a great many very specific details. We know, for instance, that before the end there will be a great collection of gold and silver somewhere in the Middle East. We know that Europe will be united under a single head, That Judah wil;; be back in her homeland, And that she will be surrounded by nations intend on destroying her. We know that these nations will include revivals of Egypt, the Philistines (Palestianians) Edom, Moab, and Ammon (Jordan) We also know that there will be a great world power in the homeland of the Scythians (Russia) and another very great power in the far east (China.)

We also know that Assyria (northern Iraq) and Babylon (southern Iraq) will be revived, along with Persia (Iran)

We are specifically told that Assyria (northern Iraq) will invade Israel, and are even given the daily progress of that invasion.

Those who are paying attention to Bible prophecy are told how to know when it is time to run, where to go when they have to run, and how many days to stay there.

All of this is revealed in explicitly stated prophecies. It is not derived from questionable interpretations of apocalyptic prophecies.

that before the end there will be a great collection of gold and silver somewhere in the Middle East.

Could you share the scripture for this?


Thanks JLB

 

[zeke37]

dan11?

 

[Biblewriter]

Could you share the scripture for this?


Thanks JLB

"He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps." (Daniel 11:42-43)

 

[Achilles6129]

I agree as well. We have been given many details that must be fulfilled before Christ can return. The book of Revelation must be fulfilled, as well as the Olivet Discourses, etc.

 

[eclipsenow]

I agree as well. We have been given many details that must be fulfilled before Christ can return. The book of Revelation must be fulfilled, as well as the Olivet Discourses, etc.

I disagree. Revelation was written to John's generation and describes the persecution the church was about to experience. In the first chapter John explains that HIS generation were to OBEY his commands in this book. They can't do that if it's all about thousands of years later, can they?

The Olivet discourse was fulfilled when Titus sacked Jerusalem. The temple was destroyed. Not one stone was left on another. The temple is gone. The disciples asked about THAT temple, and THAT temple was destroyed in AD70. It's so simple I can't get my head around how much scripture twisting you have to do to make the disciples ACTUALLY ask about a hypothetical THIRD temple that STILL hasn't been built yet!!!!!

I'm amazed at the capacity of people to deceive themselves.

Please show me the Olivet discourse moment when Jesus said, "Actually, I'm talking about a hypothetical THIRD temple that's going to be destroyed. You Jewish Christians wouldn't really CARE about the end of this temple you can see with your own eyes right now, would you? No, of course you're ACTUALLY interested in 21st century geopolitics, not the fact that the ROMANS are going to destroy Jerusalem in this generation. Well, it starts like this... there was this war in 1948 that led to stuff, then there was Ronald Reagan of course........."

 

[Biblewriter]

I agree as well. We have been given many details that must be fulfilled before Christ can return. The book of Revelation must be fulfilled, as well as the Olivet Discourses, etc.

I agree that the book of Revelation has to be fulfilled. But most of that is presented in symbols whose meaning can legitimately be debated. But there are a great many explicitly stated Old Testament prophecies that have never been fulfilled. Without a single exception, every one of these that applies to a time before Messiah appears must be fulfilled before He comes in power and glory. These explicitly detailed prophecies contain many details about a war that they say is coming in the holy land. As these prophecies have unquestionably not been fulfilled, we know that they will be fulfilled in the future. If this were not true, then one of two things absolutely has to be true. Either the Bible is not really the Word of God, or God lied. Since neither of these alternate possibilities is an acceptable conclusion for any Christian to reach, we have to conclude that every one of these prophecies will indeed be fulfilled.

 

[ebedmelech]

I agree as well. We have been given many details that must be fulfilled before Christ can return. The book of Revelation must be fulfilled, as well as the Olivet Discourses, etc.

Much of both have been fullfilled already! Very little has not.

 

[Biblewriter]

Much of both have been fullfilled already! Very little has not.

Not a single event prophesied for Daniel's seventieth week or for the time afterward has happened. These fill the last half of the Old Testament, and include literally hundreds of specific details that have not been fulfilled. My book reviewing these unfulfilled prophecies took three hundred pages, and I did not include all of them..

 

[interpreter]

heresy

What is a heresy? The second coming is recorded in all the world history books. On Oct. 28, 312 AD, the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. It is known as the turning point in history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth. This viewpoint does not violate the Nicene Creed because it does not rule out a third coming.

 

[interpreter]

Much of both have been fullfilled already! Very little has not.

 

[ebedmelech]

Not a single event prophesied for Daniel's seventieth week or for the time afterward has happened. These fill the last half of the Old Testament, and include literally hundreds of specific details that have not been fulfilled. My book reviewing these unfulfilled prophecies took three hundred pages, and I did not include all of them..

Really?

The 70th week started when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit, and God said "This is My beloved Son..."

Peter affirms this when he speaks to Cornelius in Acts 10:38:
38You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Of course you'll come with this gap that nobody sees...

 

[Douggg]

Really?

The 70th week started when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit, and God said "This is My beloved Son..."

Peter affirms this when he speaks to Cornelius in Acts 10:38:
38You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Of course you'll come with this gap that nobody sees...

Jesus was not baptized in Jerusalem. The weeks of years in Daniel speak to when the Messiah arrives in Jerusalem. Jesus did arrive in Jerusalem riding a donkey as prophesied. How many days later was he crucified?

The point is that the baptism of Jesus is not the arrival of Jesus as the messiah in Jerusalem. Jesus did arrive in Jerusalem, riding a donkey as prophesied, hailed as king messiah. 4 days later he was crucified. After 69 weeks of years had passed, not 69 1/2 weeks of years.

The 7 years of the 70th week is still outstanding.


Doug

 

[Biblewriter]

Really?

The 70th week started when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit, and God said "This is My beloved Son..."

Peter affirms this when he speaks to Cornelius in Acts 10:38:
38You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Of course you'll come with this gap that nobody sees...

Actually, everybody that wrote on the subject in the first two hundred years of the church (and whose writing was preserved to the present day) saw the gap and said the week would be fulfilled in the future. (See "Against Heresies," by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4 and "Commentary on Daniel," by Hyppolytus, book 4, 35.3, for which a translation by T. C. Schmidt is available online at http://www.chronicon.net.)

And even as late as the fifth century, Jerome wrote that "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

 

[ebedmelech]

Actually, everybody that wrote on the subject in the first two hundred years of the church (and whose writing was preserved to the present day) saw the gap and said the week would be fulfilled in the future. (See "Against Heresies," by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4 and "Commentary on Daniel," by Hyppolytus, book 4, 35.3, for which a translation by T. C. Schmidt is available online at http://www.chronicon.net.)

And even as late as the fifth century, Jerome wrote that "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

You mean everybody you know of...but even so, that that's not the measure of truth Biblewriter.

Could you please show where the gap is until the 70th week in scripture?

 

[eclipsenow]

We have been given a great many very specific details. We know, for instance, that before the end there will be a great collection of gold and silver somewhere in the Middle East. We know that Europe will be united under a single head, That Judah wil;; be back in her homeland, And that she will be surrounded by nations intend on destroying her. We know that these nations will include revivals of Egypt, the Philistines (Palestianians) Edom, Moab, and Ammon (Jordan) We also know that there will be a great world power in the homeland of the Scythians (Russia) and another very great power in the far east (China.)

We also know that Assyria (northern Iraq) and Babylon (southern Iraq) will be revived, along with Persia (Iran)

We are specifically told that Assyria (northern Iraq) will invade Israel, and are even given the daily progress of that invasion.

Those who are paying attention to Bible prophecy are told how to know when it is time to run, where to go when they have to run, and how many days to stay there.

All of this is revealed in explicitly stated prophecies. It is not derived from questionable interpretations of apocalyptic prophecies.

Dream on baby. Seriously, some of these predictions are so wishy washy that they could apply to any country. EG: "a great collection of gold and silver somewhere in the Middle East". Are you kidding? When the world economy keeps growing exponentially a few percent each year do you know how fast that doubles the wealth in each nation? Just 1% growth doubles wealth in one lifetime. 2% = 70/2 = doubles in 45 years. 3% growth = 23 years, etc. What you are describing could be true anywhere on the planet.

As for the slightly more specific 'prophecies', you've ripped them out of their Old Testament context to fit some whacky End Times table, and the more you go on about it, the more they'll just end up looking like failed Mayan Prophecies. (BTW, we've only got 2 hours left, didn't you know? )

Those who are paying attention to Bible prophecy are told how to know when it is time to run, where to go when they have to run, and how many days to stay there.

Ummm, Jesus told the Disciples to run away when Rome trashed THAT temple in AD70. You know? The one the disciples were actually asking about, not some (still hypothetical) 3rd temple that there is just NO WAY Jesus was talking about?

 

[JLB777]

What is a heresy? The second coming is recorded in all the world history books. On Oct. 28, 312 AD, the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. It is known as the turning point in history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth. This viewpoint does not violate the Nicene Creed because it does not rule out a third coming.

It is heresy because it is a belief that spreads like a cancer and undermines the faith of believers in the word of God.

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:17

Stating that Jesus Christ has returned is to say that the resurrection is past as well.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

and again -

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

and again -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

The resurrection takes place when Jesus Christ returns!

To say that Jesus has returned, is to say the resurrection is past!

To say the resurrection is past is HERESY!

Those who promote HERESIES will not enter the kingdom of God!

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

 

[eclipsenow]

He will return in 2018. Satan has deceived people into thinking that the regathering of Israel happened in 1948. This was Satan's counterfeit regathering. Israel (the nation in the middle east) is Mystery Babylon the Great.



Many Christians believe Israel is a divine nation of God based on the founding of the nation Israel in 1948 which seems to correspond to Ezekiel’s prophecy. Most historians agree with the fact that Judah was enslaved by the Babylonians for 60 years rather than the necessary 70 that is used to arrive at the 1948 number (Wikipedia). Also why would you use the number 70, a number that is symbolic of completeness, when we know that Judah’s punishment was not completed because they were punished 7x more for their sins. Lets see what happens when we use the number 60 which seems to be more historically accurate…


390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes ‘Israel’
+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes ‘Judah’
= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel


With the northern tribes of Israel having already been taken captive by the Assyrians, in 597 B.C. Judah was also taken into captivity by the Babylonians until 537 B.C. for a grand total of exactly 60 years (Wikipedia). Instead of the 70 that most use to arrive at the year 1948. We’ll get into where this commonly used 70 number comes from later…


430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel
- 60 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity
= 370 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel


“And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins.” (Leviticus 26:18)
”And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.”
(Leviticus 26:27-28)

Surely enough, Judah did not obey God and was forced to endure the 7x multiplier of God’s wraith.


This leaves us with:
370 Remaining years of judgment
x 7 ’7X’ rule
= 2,590 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel


2,590 years
x 360 days
= 932,400 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity


Convert the 932,400 days into our 365.25 day solar (Julian) years.
932,400 days ÷ 365.25 days = 2,552.77 years of God’s judgment remained

597 BCE
+ 60 Years
= 537.3 B.C. Spring of 537 B.C. Cyrus allows Jews to return to Jerusalem
+ 2552.77 Years Now add the 2,552 years remaining in this judgment
= 2017 A.D. End of judgment against Israel


Click here for the date calculator I used.


2017 A.D seems to be much closer to the date of the real regathering. However I would have been much happier to see 2018, as that correlates to the year that I believe the Israel will be destroyed. I believe that I am one of the witnesses spoken of in Revelation. I was called by God in the 7th month of 2011, which I believe marked the point that is 7 years from the completion of the tribulation. 7 years from 2011 would be 2018. The 2017 date obviously is off by a year. Then again those who use the 70 year captivity theory to arrive at the 1948 date were off by 2 years. (Source) Apparently the ancient Hebrews counted portions of a year as one year, with this acknowledged then the 2018 date appears to be valid. Also it does not necessarily need to be 2018. As the time that God will end his judgment upon Israel (2017) does not necessarily need to be the exact year that Mystery Babylon the Great will be destroyed (2018).
Now to address the issue of the number 70 and why many Christians use it..


Mystery Babylon the Great will be a nation that lasts 70 years

This is what the LORD says: “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place. 11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back from captivity.[a] I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.” (Jeremiah 29:10-14)

This segment of Jeremiah conflicts with the historically accepted 60 year length of Judah’s Babylonian captivity. Could it be that this passage, instead of referring to the length of the upcoming captivity, is instead referring to the duration, the total amount of years, that ancient Babylon would be a superpower? Will it also refer to the amount of years that Mystery Babylon the Great will be a nation?


Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. (Jeremiah 25:9-11)

It seems clear from the context in these two segments that the seventy years applies to Babylon itself, not to the period of time that the people of Judah are to spend in Babylon. In chapter 25 it says that the nations would serve Babylon for 70 years. Again in chapter 29, Jeremiah makes the connection to Babylon by saying that 70 years are “for Babylon”.
So the 70 years refers to the period of Babylonian Empire. When did this start and finish? As alluded to earlier, Babylon was conquered by Cyrus II of Persia in 539 BC. So this is the finish. When was the start? For our purposes, the start would have to be when the other “nations will serve the king of Babylon” (see excerpt from Jeremiah 25 above). The major world power prior to Babylon was Assyria.


“For a good overview of the decline of the Assyrian Empire refer to the Encyclopaedia Britannica (see article in Britannica CD 99: The History of Ancient Mesopotamia: Mesopotamia to the end of the: THE NEO-ASSYRIAN EMPIRE (746-609): Decline of the Assyrian empire). Here it describes how the Assyrian empire, after becoming weakened through civil war, fell to the combined forces of the Medes and the Babylonians, finally being extinguished in 609 BC. In this final battle, the Assyrians and the Egyptians fought side-by-side. Prior to being conquered by the Medes and Babylonians, the Egyptians fought against Judah – and Judah lost. This is the battle where Josiah was killed. The chronology of Judah places this event in 608 BC – but that is close enough to 609 BC when a 1 year margin of error is assumed.” (BibleWorldHistory)


The very name Mystery Babylon the Great implies that this adulterous nation will have many of the same qualities and characteristics of ancient Babylon. Israel became a nation in 1948. 70 years from this would be 2018. Notice, Jeremiah 29:10-14 uses terminology which has previously been used to describe the tribulation-era regathering of both kingdom’s of Israel… “I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you“, meaning that this is also talking about the great regathering of both kingdoms that happens during the tribulation. This passage is stating that when Mystery Babylon the Great’s 70 years are complete then the regathering will begin. Israel was founded in 1948. 70 years from that date would be 2018! Obviously this corresponds to the 2017-2018 date that we came to earlier using the more accurate 60 year Babylonian captivity.

Mystery Babylon The Great Is Israel

It's 2013 soon. Only 6 years before the end of 2018. Then we'll see.

Does someone compile all the predictions like these and publish the failures? You know, the Futurist Fizzles that are basically a Christian version of all that Mayan calendar 21.12.12 silliness?

(I think the Lord could return tonight, really, I do. Or in 50,000 years! We just don't know).