When Will Christ Return?

[mandyangel]

Barack Hussein Obama might be the anti-christ (I've heard that from some friends who I trust) so it may be sooner than we think.

 

[eclipsenow]

Barack Hussein Obama might be the anti-christ (I've heard that from some friends who I trust) so it may be sooner than we think.

Hi Mandy,
this is my standard cut & paste about the anti-Christ. Generally, my whole congregation (Sydney Anglican) find the obsession with 'spot the anti-Christ' quite bizarre.

Regards,
Eclipse.

****

Who is the anti-Christ?

Playing ‘spot the anti-Christ’ has been a favourite past time of many Christians, especially since Hollywood produced the Omen movies. However, I’m convinced the burning urgency many have about identifying an individual anti-Christ is misplaced.

Everything the entire Bible says about "antichrist":

1 John 2:18
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7
7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

To me that's generic descriptions of many, many, many people. I read this as saying the spirit of antichrist has always been with us and that there is no special antichrist period we are waiting for.

I don't think there are any prophecies about an AntiChrist.

1. The Beasts in Revelation.
John's "beasts" are a symbolic amalgamation of Daniel's beasts. He takes bits and pieces of the 4 beasts of Daniel and welds them together into one super-beast. Daniel's vision is broken down into a specific kingdom by kingdom prophecy: John's apocalyptic writing doesn't do any such thing. That is because it's a sermon, not a timetable. It's generic writing for all ages. John is in effect saying that *any* time worldy governments persecute God's people they are a beast. It's generic writing describing *any* government that sets itself up against Christians, not a *specific* description of any one specific event. Also please consider that John does not use the term Anti-Christ here.

2. The Dragon of Revelation.
The Dragon is Satan, and this scene is where Satan tries to persecute Mary and kill Jesus, the incarnate son of God. These few Chapters are a gospel recap: the story so far. They are not prophetic so much as a gospel tract within Revelation to make some statements about the infallibility of God's plans. The lady with the 12 stars runs do the desert as God's people have done in exodus and God's prophets have done in times of persecution. It's the language of seeking refuge. God gives his church periods of refuge in the terrible persecution of these Last Days (since Acts 2 and counting...)

3. The man of lawlessness.
As my good mate Dr Greg Clarke says:

“But is there going to be one mega-evil ruler who will deceive the world and lead millions astray and do things like brand ‘666’ on their foreheads?
Probably not. There are passages in the Bible, which talk about a particular being that is Christ's foe (e.g., “the man of lawlessness” in 2 Thessalonians 2 or the dragon of Revelation 12-13 who is identified as the Devil). But this kind of symbolic language is used to describe an attitude or spirit of evil rather than a single evil person. The fact that some parts of Scripture bring ultimate evil to a head by using an individual character to identify it probably says more about how dramatic literature operates than it does about predicting history.”

The devil you know | The Briefing

Or try Luke Woodhouse:
To explain this present spiritual reality in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul draws a picture of the last days, when the man known as ‘lawlessness’ will be exposed. On that day, rebellion at its highest magnitude will be revealed for all to see. Comparisons with ‘lawless’ figures over history have often been distractions for Christians, in that they miss the picture Paul sketches. But comparisons should not be totally dismissed. The global outrage at figures like Adolf Hitler is a rare opportunity to see the secret power of lawlessness brought out into the open and examined. It is a moment where the whole world stops and notices anarchy with its disguise removed. It's a glimpse of hell.
Getting refocused on the return of Jesus | The Briefing

Or Try this 5 minute video by the Dean of St Andrew's Cathedral, Sydney, Phillip Jensen.
Video | Antichrist: Who Is He? | Phillip Jensen

So basically I just feel sad for Christians obsessed with tracking down one almighty 'antiChrist' figure when there are clearly many AntiChrists. I feel sad for futurists who see Revelation as some sort of future timetable instead of a generic sermon about trusting God in these Last Days, of 2000 years and counting. I feel sad that so many modern evangelicals have abandoned the Covenant Theology Amil position of the great Reformation thinkers. Last Days cults are a dime a dozen, and Christians that become obsessed with all their (contradictory) last days timetables, whether Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Pre-Mil, Post-Mil, and whatever, are often fair game for cults. It's just sad.

 

[vocalyocal]

for sure not this week

 

[Echolipse]

Zeke, you didn't offend me at all. I've always enjoy discussing and debating eschatology with friends and acquaintenances. I don't have alot where I live and my wife doesn't like me talking about it around her (then again that was primarily about 12-21-12, not sure how she feels since we've passed that now)


Sorry it's taken so long to get back, life and work have really been slamming me. If you don't mind again, I'd like to come back with a few comments and see what I get back from you and the community.

Rev12:17 says that Satan goes after the woman's remnant, who keep the commandments and have the testimony of JESUS CHRIST

That means they are Christians, being wathed on by Satan, and that is well after chapter 4

the trib, whether it is 7 years or not, is not the wrath of God...
it's Satan's wrath that God allows....
and Christians have a job to do during it...

they have to witness against the false Christ that is coming to conquer the world...

This is one thing I don't understand. See in Revelation it speaks of the angels breaking seals and pouring out. I always understood that this WAS God pouring out his Wrath against unbelievers (again this is after [pre-trib] the legit and believing church is raptured up, so that we won't have to deal with it all and those who rejected God's word or didn't believe but knew the truth are left on the earth).

I listened to Impe for a few years too, but although I don't doubt his passion,

now I find that I disagree with just about everything he says
with regards to the rapture and end time events

Who do you listen to or get your info now? I'm trying to keep an open mind for the different beliefs.

Bro, many here agree with you, however i completely disagree.

Jesus warned us of false Christ(s) and most of us believe the bible depicts a specific one at the end
the bible is full of the signs that herald that time...
we as Christians that study the bible, should be able to see those signs.

why would God bother telling us of the trib, at all,
if we were not going to be here to experience it?

I always believed that the warnings and fore-tellings of the false Christ and signs was literally to warn us of what was to come and to spread the word of what was to come.

I agree that those Christians who read the bible should know what to look for and watch for, but those who don't and those non-christians would either have no clue or would hear some 5th-party telling of the warnings that none of it would make since or sound so foolish that they would steer away from the church.

That way once we are gone in that blink of an eye and the entire world is in chaos and scared, those who didn't fully believe would be then recognizing what happened. Thus they start spreading the word and ministering, but they have to deal with the 21 judgements.

na, the bible says that the resurrection of the dead in Christ, is on the last day

and the bible says that the gathering to Christ (rapture) is after the resurrection of the dead in Christ

so pre trib must be wrong, for many reasons

Thought that related to the 2nd resurrection and not the first. Since there is two resurrections of the dead.

 

[eclipsenow]

This is one thing I don't understand. See in Revelation it speaks of the angels breaking seals and pouring out. I always understood that this WAS God pouring out his Wrath against unbelievers (again this is after [pre-trib] the legit and believing church is raptured up, so that we won't have to deal with it all and those who rejected God's word or didn't believe but knew the truth are left on the earth).

Why do you think Revelation is even speaking of the future? Why isn't it speaking generally of all the 'Last Days' (which started 2000 years ago when Jesus was resurrected into his heavenly body, redeeming not just humanity but this entire creation for re-creation, and which started the Last Days. Acts 2 and Hebrews 1).

Revelation isn't some specific description of a specific End Times time table that only we can understand with OUR specific newspaper headlines. Revelation is something that should have comforted all the saints in all generations. I don't understand why everyone here thinks it is only relevant to us, 2000 years later. John wanted HIS generation to hear and obey. That means it was about them and applied to them as much as us. I take it, because of his gospel focus in chapter 1, that the whole book is actually an apocalyptic statement of the gospel.

I find these endless debates about what Revelation means, and which timetable it supports, utterly depressing. So many cults start from this millennial stuff.

 

[vocalyocal]

Why do you think Revelation is even speaking of the future? Why isn't it speaking generally of all the 'Last Days' (which started 2000 years ago when Jesus was resurrected into his heavenly body, redeeming not just humanity but this entire creation for re-creation, and which started the Last Days. Acts 2 and Hebrews 1).

Revelation isn't some specific description of a specific End Times time table that only we can understand with OUR specific newspaper headlines. Revelation is something that should have comforted all the saints in all generations. I don't understand why everyone here thinks it is only relevant to us, 2000 years later. John wanted HIS generation to hear and obey. That means it was about them and applied to them as much as us. I take it, because of his gospel focus in chapter 1, that the whole book is actually an apocalyptic statement of the gospel.

I find these endless debates about what Revelation means, and which timetable it supports, utterly depressing. So many cults start from this millennial stuff.

most Christians see Revelations as a look at the final end of the world because completely woven into the Revelation story is judgement day and the second coming of Jesus,

you can not separate these facts from the Revelation, saying the Revelation has occured already (fall of Jerusalem 70ad) yet void of the second coming and judgement would be the greatest hermeneutical mistake

 

[interpreter]

It is heresy because it is a belief that spreads like a cancer and undermines the faith of believers in the word of God.

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:17

Stating that Jesus Christ has returned is to say that the resurrection is past as well.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

and again -

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

and again -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

The resurrection takes place when Jesus Christ returns!

To say that Jesus has returned, is to say the resurrection is past!

To say the resurrection is past is HERESY!

Those who promote HERESIES will not enter the kingdom of God!

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

I did not say that the resurrection has already passed, just that the second coming and first horseman have already come to pass. The first resurrection occurs much later, in chapter 20, in our future.

 

[zeke37]

Zeke, you didn't offend me at all. I've always enjoy discussing and debating eschatology with friends and acquaintenances. I don't have alot where I live and my wife doesn't like me talking about it around her (then again that was primarily about 12-21-12, not sure how she feels since we've passed that now)


Sorry it's taken so long to get back, life and work have really been slamming me. If you don't mind again, I'd like to come back with a few comments and see what I get back from you and the community.



This is one thing I don't understand. See in Revelation it speaks of the angels breaking seals and pouring out.

hi
the seals are not the specific wrath of God that we are not appointed to.
God's wrath begins when Christ gets here, which is at Judgement and the time of the dead (same timing as 1Thes4's rapture , which is post trib)
see Rev11's 7th trump and Rev19

I always understood that this WAS God pouring out his Wrath against unbelievers

the latter days leading up to the end, will not be God's wrath

The trib is Satan's wrath according to Rev12

God's wrath is a whole lot worse and follows Satan's wrath. see Rev20

(again this is after [pre-trib] the legit and believing church is raptured up, so that we won't have to deal with it all and those who rejected God's word or didn't believe but knew the truth are left on the earth).

fantasy

Who do you listen to or get your info now? I'm trying to keep an open mind for the different beliefs.

the foundation of my specific dogma, was taught to me by Pastor Arnold Murray,
a preacher in a small town in Arkansas
he taught me HOW to study, but admittedly I have been self taught for many years

I always believed that the warnings and fore-tellings of the false Christ and signs was literally to warn us of what was to come and to spread the word of what was to come.

sure was, and that would be a waste if we were gone, wouldn't it?
the warnings are for "us" to recognize the season,
'cause everyone else but us who remain faithful will be in the dark
and not see the signs that point to The Light

I agree that those Christians who read the bible should know what to look for and watch for, but those who don't and those non-christians would either have no clue or would hear some 5th-party telling of the warnings that none of it would make since or sound so foolish that they would steer away from the church.

huh? I don't understand your point?
that's the way it is TODAY

That way once we are gone in that blink of an eye and the entire world is in chaos and scared, those who didn't fully believe would be then recognizing what happened. Thus they start spreading the word and ministering, but they have to deal with the 21 judgements.

we see things so differently, it's not funny.
there is no pre trib rapture. it's fantasy.
the signs are for YOU and me, if we live to see them,
and the test is for YOU and me, if you live to see that hour of testing.

Thought that related to the 2nd resurrection and not the first. Since there is two resurrections of the dead.

where? there are not two resurrections of the dead in Christ.
all righteous dead are brought from heaven and raised here at His Coming,
which happens on the last day according to John 6 and 11

and the rapture is after that, according to 1Thes4


I believe the last day, is the Millennium or 1000 years, so the righteous are "raised" at it's beginning

but the rest of the dead (unrighteous) are raised at the end of the 1000 year long last day for destruction

 

[eclipsenow]

most Christians see Revelations as a look at the final end of the world because completely woven into the Revelation story is judgement day and the second coming of Jesus,

you can not separate these facts from the Revelation, saying the Revelation has occured already (fall of Jerusalem 70ad) yet void of the second coming and judgement would be the greatest hermeneutical mistake

Is the gospel 'turn or burn'? If Revelation is actually a metaphorical gospel, shouldn't it have God's final judgement spelt out as part of that gospel? Isn't the gospel not just that Jesus died and rose again, but is coming back to save his people for good and judge his enemies?

In a nutshell: Judgement Day is shown in metaphor in Revelation because Judgement Day is part of the gospel that gives us hope as we patiently endure the suffering we are sometimes called to bear. Revelation was the gospel declared to John's generation, and it was a message he knew they could hear and understand and obey.

Read chapter 1, and explain to me how that could possibly be about 2000 years later because I just CANNOT see it!

 

[Echolipse]

hi the seals are not the specific wrath of God that we are not appointed to. God's wrath begins when Christ gets here, which is at Judgement and the time of the dead (same timing as 1Thes4's rapture , which is post trib)
see Rev11's 7th trump and Rev19

the latter days leading up to the end, will not be God's wrath

The trib is Satan's wrath according to Rev12

God's wrath is a whole lot worse and follows Satan's wrath. see Rev20

I'm starting to understand where you're coming from on this topic.

sure was, and that would be a waste if we were gone, wouldn't it?

the warnings are for "us" to recognize the season,
'cause everyone else but us who remain faithful will be in the dark
and not see the signs that point to The Light

huh? I don't understand your point?
that's the way it is TODAY

The pretense I was trying to use (forgive me if it came out confused (was and still am running on low sleep due to work and holidays) was (again assuming there was a pre-trib rapture) as if we warned the people around us and we're taken up and they're left, but there are those who didn't believe fully and do believe, after the rapture happens. Good example is the movie "Left Behind".

we see things so differently, it's not funny.

there is no pre trib rapture. it's fantasy.
the signs are for YOU and me, if we live to see them,
and the test is for YOU and me, if you live to see that hour of testing.

We may see things differently now, but after I do my own research and seeking, I might agree with you or I might continue on with my beliefs.

where? there are not two resurrections of the dead in Christ.

all righteous dead are brought from heaven and raised here at His Coming, which happens on the last day according to John 6 and 11
and the rapture is after that, according to 1Thes4

I cannot go against this statement right now, where I thought I was referencing is incorrect and did not say it. What I thought was that the first resurrection was just before the (pre-trib) rapture and then the second is at the beginning of the millennium.

I believe the last day, is the Millennium or 1000 years, so the righteous are "raised" at it's beginning

but the rest of the dead (unrighteous) are raised at the end of the 1000 year long last day for destruction

I understand what you're saying here. Again, I can't advise against this statement due to I can't remember where my reference was. Once I find it, ill let you know.

By your statements, I take it your post-trib?

 

[zeke37]

I'm starting to understand where you're coming from on this topic.

The pretense I was trying to use (forgive me if it came out confused (was and still am running on low sleep due to work and holidays) was (again assuming there was a pre-trib rapture) as if we warned the people around us and we're taken up and they're left, but there are those who didn't believe fully and do believe, after the rapture happens. Good example is the movie "Left Behind".

I've seen some of the movies.
they are fiction tho., and IMO not based on the truth of the scriptures...

We may see things differently now, but after I do my own research and seeking, I might agree with you or I might continue on with my beliefs.

that's all I can ever ask, personally.
I've heard things folks have said, and not agreed right away,
but in time, I have come to change opinions on certain subjects.

"put it on a shelf" in your mind, for a while...

I cannot go against this statement right now, where I thought I was referencing is incorrect and did not say it. What I thought was that the first resurrection was just before the (pre-trib) rapture and then the second is at the beginning of the millennium.

I don't think you can find biblical support for a pre trib Resurrection of the dead

Jesus said that those that believe in Him, would be raised on the last day

I understand what you're saying here. Again, I can't advise against this statement due to I can't remember where my reference was. Once I find it, ill let you know.

let me know if u do

By your statements, I take it your post-trib?

completely, however I used to be a pre tribber once upon a time,
so I am quite familiar with the scriptures used in it's support

 

[interpreter]

There are many who believe that the Revelation is the 70th week in Daniel and that it take place in the future. Wrong. The Revelation has been unfolding for many centuries, since 312 AD when the first Christian conqueror appeared, riding a white horse and conquering with a bow.

 

[Achilles6129]

I thought I would re-awaken this thread with a few interesting questions:

1. In Matthew 24:22, by the days being cut short does Christ mean a literal shortening of the 24 hour day, or a shortening of some future period of time?

A literal shortening of the 24-hour day may be mentioned in the book of Revelation in chapter 8, where "the day shone not for the third part of it, and the night likewise."

2. Mt. 24:23-26 - Will people really believe that Jesus Christ has returned? Christ says that they will say "Here is Christ" or "There" - this must be quite some deception if people really believe Jesus Christ has returned.

Is it possible that the antichrist is the fake Jesus Christ - the fake Second Coming (maybe described in 2 Th. 2?). If so, why does the antichrist open his mouth in blasphemy against God? Wouldn't it seem odd that "Christ" is opening his mouth in blasphemy against God? Or perhaps people get God mixed up with Satan - e.g., it is simply a redefinition of words. God becomes Satan and Satan becomes God?

3. What does Christ mean when he makes the enigmatic statement that he is coming at an hour we do not expect (Mt. 24:44)?

This is a very interesting passage which I have pondered over for quite some time...any ideas on it? What would be an hour that we (the disciples) would not expect?

4. What is the significance of "midnight" in Mt. 25:6 and what is the "midnight cry?"

Perhaps the midnight cry is the resurrection of the two witnesses? But what is the significance of the fact that the bridegroom comes at midnight?

Any ideas?

 

[eclipsenow]

I thought I would re-awaken this thread with a few interesting questions:

1. In Matthew 24:22, by the days being cut short does Christ mean a literal shortening of the 24 hour day, or a shortening of some future period of time?

It means the conditions up to and including AD70 did not last forever. They come back, now and then, which is the whole point of the cyclic persecution breaking out in Revelation (in groups of 7).

A literal shortening of the 24-hour day may be mentioned in the book of Revelation in chapter 8, where "the day shone not for the third part of it, and the night likewise."

Again, Revelation is the most symbolic book in the bible so trying to read any future timetable into it is really unwise.

2. Mt. 24:23-26 - Will people really believe that Jesus Christ has returned? Christ says that they will say "Here is Christ" or "There" - this must be quite some deception if people really believe Jesus Christ has returned.

It's a warning about the many false military messiah's that are documented to have tried to kick out the Romans. These uprisings ironically caused the eventual destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Is it possible that the antichrist is the fake Jesus Christ - the fake Second Coming (maybe described in 2 Th. 2?).

Show me where Matt 24 actually defines Titus actions as those of the AntiChrist and then I'll believe that 2 TH 2 has anything to do with it.

If so, why does the antichrist open his mouth in blasphemy against God? Wouldn't it seem odd that "Christ" is opening his mouth in blasphemy against God? Or perhaps people get God mixed up with Satan - e.g., it is simply a redefinition of words. God becomes Satan and Satan becomes God?

This just explains, all the more, how self-contradictory the various futurist schemes really are. That's a perceptive question you are asking: there is no answer. None that justifies these contradictions. That's one of the reasons I'm Amil.

3. What does Christ mean when he makes the enigmatic statement that he is coming at an hour we do not expect (Mt. 24:44)?

There's nothing 'enigmatic' or mysterious about it. We will NOT know when he is coming back! Jesus is talking about 2 things to answer the disciples questions: the end of the temple (these things) and the fact that no false Christ shoudl trick them because THAT DAY will be unmistakable. These things V THAT DAY. Check it out, they are 2 different times.

This is a very interesting passage which I have pondered over for quite some time...any ideas on it? What would be an hour that we (the disciples) would not expect?

In 5 seconds or 50,000 years. That's the point. We will NOT expect it!

 

[Achilles6129]

It means the conditions up to and including AD70 did not last forever. They come back, now and then, which is the whole point of the cyclic persecution breaking out in Revelation (in groups of 7).

Hello there ecplise,

Your insights are definitely interesting. However, I remain unsure about the whole Matthew 24 - AD 70 idea. I have studied commentaries where that idea is set forth, but I am just not sure that it is actually true. I will address this a little later in this post.

It's a warning about the many false military messiah's that are documented to have tried to kick out the Romans. These uprisings ironically caused the eventual destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

This sounds plausible, but if you look at Paul's discussion in 2 Th. 2 he specifically says the antichrist will come with false signs/wonders. This totally confirms what Christ tells us in Mt. 24:24 about the false Christs/false prophets who shall show great signs/wonders. In addition, the order mentioned in Matthew 24 (false christs, false prophets) is the exact order of Revelation 13 where the false christ appears first (the beast) and then the false prophet (the second beast).

Therefore, it seems best to take Christ's warning in Matthew 24 of an eschatological warning of false christs, as this fits in best with 2 Thess. 2, where Paul is clearly talking about the antichrist.

If this is a warning of the eschatological "false christ" in Matthew 24, as it would seem best to take it, then that would also help prove that the entire discourse in Matthew 24 is eschatological, and does not refer to the events of 70 AD.

You might also note that in Luke 21, where Christ does refer to the events of 70 AD, he does NOT mention false christs/false prophets. This helps support my conclusion, in my view.

This just explains, all the more, how self-contradictory the various futurist schemes really are. That's a perceptive question you are asking: there is no answer. None that justifies these contradictions. That's one of the reasons I'm Amil.

There are some weaknesses, but none that are insurmountable in my opinion. Viewing the book of Revelation as entirely symbolic or viewing the book as having been being fulfilled throughout the church age also has many weaknesses, in my opinion.

In 5 seconds or 50,000 years. That's the point. We will NOT expect it!

Here's the thing I have never understood about people who think Christ could return in 5 seconds - won't that leave a lot of prophecy in the Bible unfulfilled? For example, Zechariah 14 will be completely unfulfilled - where God gathers the nations to Jerusalem to battle, etc. There are many other prophecies that would be left unfulfilled as well.

 

[eclipsenow]

Hello there ecplise,

Your insights are definitely interesting. However, I remain unsure about the whole Matthew 24 - AD 70 idea. I have studied commentaries where that idea is set forth, but I am just not sure that it is actually true. I will address this a little later in this post.




This sounds plausible, but if you look at Paul's discussion in 2 Th. 2 he specifically says the antichrist will come with false signs/wonders. This totally confirms what Christ tells us in Mt. 24:24 about the false Christs/false prophets who shall show great signs/wonders. .

Just remember, it was the disciples, not Jesus, who assumed that the destruction of God's temple must mean the end of the age...
“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

But the question before us is: "24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.25See, I have told you beforehand.26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Historians tell us there were many false Messiah's and many 'miracle worker's' back then. So many, that they eventually caused uprisings to kick out the Romans which ultimately brought down the wrath of Rome and fulfilled the verses above!

As for antichrist...

Who is the anti-Christ?

Playing ‘spot the anti-Christ’ has been a favourite past time of many Christians, especially since Hollywood produced the Omen movies. However, I’m convinced the burning urgency many have about identifying an individual anti-Christ is misplaced.

Everything the entire Bible says about "antichrist":

1 John 2:18
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7
7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

To me that's generic descriptions of many, many, many people. I read this as saying the spirit of antichrist has always been with us and that there is no special antichrist period we are waiting for.

I don't think there are any prophecies about an AntiChrist.

1. The Beasts in Revelation.
John's "beasts" are a symbolic amalgamation of Daniel's beasts. He takes bits and pieces of the 4 beasts of Daniel and welds them together into one super-beast. Daniel's vision is broken down into a specific kingdom by kingdom prophecy: John's apocalyptic writing doesn't do any such thing. That is because it's a sermon, not a timetable. It's generic writing for all ages. John is in effect saying that *any* time worldy governments persecute God's people they are a beast. It's generic writing describing *any* government that sets itself up against Christians, not a *specific* description of any one specific event. Also please consider that John does not use the term Anti-Christ here.

2. The Dragon of Revelation.
The Dragon is Satan, and this scene is where Satan tries to persecute Mary and kill Jesus, the incarnate son of God. These few Chapters are a gospel recap: the story so far. They are not prophetic so much as a gospel tract within Revelation to make some statements about the infallibility of God's plans. The lady with the 12 stars runs do the desert as God's people have done in exodus and God's prophets have done in times of persecution. It's the language of seeking refuge. God gives his church periods of refuge in the terrible persecution of these Last Days (since Acts 2 and counting...)

3. The man of lawlessness.
As my good mate Dr Greg Clarke says:

“But is there going to be one mega-evil ruler who will deceive the world and lead millions astray and do things like brand ‘666’ on their foreheads?
Probably not. There are passages in the Bible, which talk about a particular being that is Christ's foe (e.g., “the man of lawlessness” in 2 Thessalonians 2 or the dragon of Revelation 12-13 who is identified as the Devil). But this kind of symbolic language is used to describe an attitude or spirit of evil rather than a single evil person. The fact that some parts of Scripture bring ultimate evil to a head by using an individual character to identify it probably says more about how dramatic literature operates than it does about predicting history.”

http://matthiasmedia.com.au/briefing/library/2450/

Or try Luke Woodhouse:
To explain this present spiritual reality in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul draws a picture of the last days, when the man known as ‘lawlessness’ will be exposed. On that day, rebellion at its highest magnitude will be revealed for all to see. Comparisons with ‘lawless’ figures over history have often been distractions for Christians, in that they miss the picture Paul sketches. But comparisons should not be totally dismissed. The global outrage at figures like Adolf Hitler is a rare opportunity to see the secret power of lawlessness brought out into the open and examined. It is a moment where the whole world stops and notices anarchy with its disguise removed. It's a glimpse of hell.
http://matthiasmedia.com.au/briefing/library/6076/

Or Try this 5 minute video by the Dean of St Andrew's Cathedral, Sydney, Phillip Jensen.
http://phillipjensen.com/video/antichrist-who-is-he/

So basically I just feel sad for Christians obsessed with tracking down one almighty 'antiChrist' figure when there are clearly many AntiChrists. I feel sad for futurists who see Revelation as some sort of future timetable instead of a generic sermon about trusting God in these Last Days, of 2000 years and counting. I feel sad that so many modern evangelicals have abandoned the Covenant Theology Amil position of the great Reformation thinkers. Last Days cults are a dime a dozen, and Christians that become obsessed with all their (contradictory) last days timetables, whether Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Pre-Mil, Post-Mil, and whatever, are often fair game for cults. It's just sad.

 

[Achilles6129]

Just remember, it was the disciples, not Jesus, who assumed that the destruction of God's temple must mean the end of the age...
“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

But the question before us is: "24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.25See, I have told you beforehand.26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Historians tell us there were many false Messiah's and many 'miracle worker's' back then. So many, that they eventually caused uprisings to kick out the Romans which ultimately brought down the wrath of Rome and fulfilled the verses above!

Yes, I understand that there have been 'messianic pretenders' way back in the early centuries AD. I also read the rest of your post, where you cite examples of how you believe the statements in 2 Thess. 2 should be taken spiritually, not literally. But I see no reason to do this - Paul does not give any indication that he is not talking literally.

My point is that the resemblance between Christ's description of "false christs" and "false prophets" in Matthew 24 is very similiar to Paul's description of the man of lawlessness in 2 Thess. 2. Compare the two passages:

"21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Mt. 24:21-27

Now notice what Paul says about the man of lawlessnes:

"8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders," 2 Th. 2:8-9

This corresponds exactly to Christ's statements in Matthew 24. Paul is clearly talking about eschatology here, so that makes Christ's statements in Matthew 24 out to be eschatological in nature. This means, obviously, that the reference cannot possibly be to the AD 70 events surrounding Jerusalem.

Another thought:

"29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" Mt. 24:29

The "tribulation" is referring to events from at least v. 15 onward. Christ says that "immediately after" this the sun will be darkened, etc. This is an exact correspondence to the sixth seal in the book of Revelation, which clearly takes place at the eschatological day of the Lord:

"12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and there came a great earthquake; the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree drops its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the magnates and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”" Rev. 6:12-17 (NRSV)

This again argues that Christ's discourse in Matthew 24 is eschatological, not about the events of AD 70.

 

[eclipsenow]

You've raised some EXCELLENT questions but I think they all go away fairly easy when we see something about the way 'antichrist' is uses in the verses above. Wow, but I have to laugh, because your questions about the 'signs and wonders' had me scratching my head and seriously wondering if I was going to abandon my Amillennialism and become a futurist after all! (Maybe I haven't had enough sleep. )

Ha ha!

OK, well, thanks for the thought provoking questions. I love a good theological debate because it gets me reading my bible with fresh eyes and... well, reading it in the first place! (I find I'm less disciplined with devotions these days).

So I've thought about it, and here is my answer.

Once you realise that the 'man of lawlessness' and 'antiChrist' are interchangeable pictures of a certain spirit at work, then we can see that antiChrists can have been both back at AD70 when Jerusalem fell, and finally exposed at the Return of the Lord on Judgement Day.

It works like this.

There are many "the antichrist" figures. That is, many instances of the metaphor of a singular figure.

John seems to use the term AntiChrist more than anyone. I see no reference here to a global supreme ruler who will deceive all the nations, then become the Abomination that causes Desolation, or any particular instruction about what to do about such a singular figure in history.

Indeed, John's language plays down the expectation of a singular figure, especially as he uses the metaphor of a singular figure many times!

Watch it transform from one singular figure they've 'heard' about to the many singular figures in the verses below. 'The antiChrist" becomes a metaphor of general badness, which is how my scholarly friends think 2 Thess 2 is talking!


1 John 2:18
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7
7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

John does not say 'any such person is an antiChrist' but is THE antichrist. But that First Century Greek grandma down the road who denied Jesus came in the flesh, surely she cannot be THE antiChrist? But that's the way it reads! Because it's a metaphor. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

If John speaks about many individuals as THE antiChrist, it is clearly a metaphor, a nasty label, describing people in a very dangerous state.

This makes sense of Jesus warning about all the false Messiah's that would rise around AD70. "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time."

They would lead vast armies out into the desert to fight the Romans, surely a sign in and of itself. But they were wrong about who Jesus Christ really was, and they were defeated.

This also makes sense of the 'man of lawlessness' in 2 Thess 2. For surely, just as certain false faith healers steal the limelight in the church (the modern temple of God), and just as John warned against all manner of antiChrists in the singular metaphor of THE ANTICHRIST, so too 2 Thess 2 is using the metaphor of a singular figure to explain that evil will be revealed. But the good news is that the evil one cannot use his many instances of singular antichrist to permanently maim the church because "the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way." This is a common theme in Revelation, that amidst all the persecution of these last days (2000 years and counting since Acts 2), the Lord will give his church rest on occasions. We will not be snuffed out. We are to trust in him, avoid the antichrist's and warn others about antichrists, for they are everywhere.

Lastly: the fact that Matthew 24 talks on the one hand about not being deceived by the signs and wonders of lying antiChrist's, and on the other hand about the end of the world, is to be expected in a passage that jumps from answering questions about when that temple* to then talking about the end of this world, and how they would not be deceived by false Christs if they just remembered that when Jesus does return, it's the end of the entire created order!

* they were asking about THAT temple because they were looking at it with their own eyes, drawing Jesus attention to it, and then Jesus answered about THAT temple, not some still hypothetical 3rd temple. You'd have to do all kinds of damage to the text to insist Jesus was actually talking about a 3rd temple 2000 years removed from what the disciples were asking.

 

[Interplanner]

Pretty good treatment, Eclipse. Do I see an avoidance of reading 2 Thess 2 about Paul's current times? "Setting up in the temple, proclaiming himself..." are reasonable recycled statements of Mt 24 & //s about the person who should not be there, calling himself Messiah (as we know from Jesus' ordeal, to say you were Messiah was to claim to be God). The "power of lawlessness" was "already at work" (holy revolts tend to cheat to their advantage!). Once again, the direct hand of God/Christ was expected to destroy them at his coming. Well, the un-messiah was destroyed, but the 2nd coming was not how that happened, because that would have meant the end of the world, which the Father put off.

All this seems to be directed towards the same group as Paul's pursuers and spoilers in 1 Th 2; but maybe not. It's just that like Mt 23's already desolate house, the "wrath of God has come on them fully."

I mention that as an example of the imprecision of how the apostles thought. The house was not desolated yet, and I don't know of an act of wrath on Israel already by the time of this letter (unless he means the famine during Claudius, Acts 11, which is over the whole Roman world...). Either way, it's not the exact literalism of fine detail by BW, is it?

--Inter

 

[ViaCrucis]

I thought I would re-awaken this thread with a few interesting questions:

1. In Matthew 24:22, by the days being cut short does Christ mean a literal shortening of the 24 hour day, or a shortening of some future period of time?

A literal shortening of the 24-hour day may be mentioned in the book of Revelation in chapter 8, where "the day shone not for the third part of it, and the night likewise."

No, it simply means the time will be cut short, it won't go on forever. The trials and tribulation which the People of God have faced won't go on forever, but Christ will come again, and will set all things right.

2. Mt. 24:23-26 - Will people really believe that Jesus Christ has returned? Christ says that they will say "Here is Christ" or "There" - this must be quite some deception if people really believe Jesus Christ has returned.

Is it possible that the antichrist is the fake Jesus Christ - the fake Second Coming (maybe described in 2 Th. 2?). If so, why does the antichrist open his mouth in blasphemy against God? Wouldn't it seem odd that "Christ" is opening his mouth in blasphemy against God? Or perhaps people get God mixed up with Satan - e.g., it is simply a redefinition of words. God becomes Satan and Satan becomes God?

It's a warning against false messiahs and false claims. Over the last two thousand years, messianic claimants, false prophets, and apocalyptic hysteria has been a dime a dozen. Jesus doesn't want us to be caught up in that nonsense, instead we are to be vigilant--He'll come when He comes, and not a moment sooner, everyone will see Him, there won't be any second guessing or doubt.

3. What does Christ mean when he makes the enigmatic statement that he is coming at an hour we do not expect (Mt. 24:44)?

This is a very interesting passage which I have pondered over for quite some time...any ideas on it? What would be an hour that we (the disciples) would not expect?

Because we won't expect it. Date-setting is pointless. He comes at a time known only to God the Father. Our job is to be obedient and faithful to Him, knowing and hoping that He will, one day, come again and make all things new.

4. What is the significance of "midnight" in Mt. 25:6 and what is the "midnight cry?"

Perhaps the midnight cry is the resurrection of the two witnesses? But what is the significance of the fact that the bridegroom comes at midnight?

Any ideas?

The midnight cry is "The Bridegroom comes!". The faithful virgins were not caught off guard at his coming. Midnight, the middle of the night, as in "thief in the night" when we do not expect. Our Lord will come according to His own timing, and while we cannot predict or anticipate when; we can stand vigilant, faithful, and be found counted among those who were faithful and not wasteful--as the Parable of the Talents shows us.

-CryptoLutheran