When Will Christ Return?

[drjean]

"When you see ALL THESE THINGS come to pass.... " We are the first generation to see all the end days events beginning (like labor pains, limited and far apart at first, then building.)

IDK understand where you count that we haven't already had 2000 years since Christ was on earth. Um??? We're in our calendar of 2012 now... and the Jewish calendar is shorter than ours... Age of grace... might be the difference.

I look for him hourly practically! And there is a crown for those who do...so those who don't expect him for 20 or more years probably aren't really waiting Him to return... don't you want that crown to throw at His feet? It's exciting to realize that after 2000 years the Bible is showing us what is happening TODAY as end times events... and for me, I've been reading and "looking" for Christ for 45 years...and nothing was as fervent as Christians today who know their prophecy/Bible.... SOON FOLKS! SOON!

 

[eclipsenow]

PROPH'ECY, n. 1. A foretelling; prediction; a declaration of something to come.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The entire book of Revelation is LITERAL, although it is steeped in symbolism................but all the symbols represent something real........

That's like saying "The entire book of Revelation is BLUE, although it is steeped in RED".

the simple definition of prophecy is telling of certain events to occur in advance...............the book of Revelation starts out by saying this very thing " things which must shortly COME TO PASS"........then verse 3 calls it a prophecy

Hi Manasseh,
My Symbolist Amil view of Revelation comes from how John introduces his book and how John writes and uses common biblical symbols, NOT the actions of anyone. I was just responding to Bible2's machine-gun-repetition that Revelation is easily understandable from a futurist point of view, and has been easily understood for the last 2000 years. What an obscene joke!

that is...........Revelation starts out with "things that must shortly come to pass" and a few verse later that it is a prophecy

Revelation 1:1
"1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

SOON!

Revelation 1:2
"who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."

GOSPEL!

Revelation 1:3
"3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

NEAR!

John expected the stuff in Revelation to begin during his lifetime! The persecution, the suffering, the tribulations, the safety of martyrs in heaven, the spiritual reign of Christ, it's all starting soon.

What is Revelation about? It's reassuring the Jewish Christians that despite the Roman atrocities in AD70, Jesus still reigns *right now* from heaven. The Messiah has not failed His kingdom.

Instead, in Revelation 1:4 we read:
"Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth."

PRESENT RULER!

John is not writing about some far distant rule of Jesus over the Earth. I have no idea where or why futurists insert 2000 years! John is writing to say Jesus rules from heaven right now. The Kingdom of God is a present reality. We reign with him from heaven right now because we are seated with him in heaven right now! (Ephesians 2). His Kingdom is not of this world. And never will be! When he returns, this whole UNIVERSE is due for an upgrade. (2 Peter 3:10-13 = DAY OF LORD = like a thief = "a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.") When he returns it will be like the lightning from the East to the West (Matthew 24) and the dead will be raised and judged and even death destroyed and the New Universe installed. All on the one glorious day.

My first recommendation would be Revelation Unwrapped by John Richardson. This is available from bookdepository.co.uk quite cheap, and is a short, clear book taking the Symbolist approach to Revelation. That is, unlike modern 'futurists', Revelation is full of biblical symbols and is not dependent on modern newspaper headlines and geopolitics to understand. It's all about the gospel, and is a cracker of a sermon encouraging all Christians in all ages that have ever had to live under suffering.


Indeed, the very first chapter spells out that BECAUSE Jesus died and rose again, we are to take heart BECAUSE that means he will also return, and the reason we need to take heart is BECAUSE John and his church are CURRENTLY experiencing the tribulation!!!!

///To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,"
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” 9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus...///

See? The church is the kingdom of God now, not some future Millennium. The church is suffering now, and has been for 2000 years. The church is to remember Jesus death and resurrection guarantees that he will return one day, and these are the themes John is about to unpack in the rest of the book. Rev 1 is like an introductory guide as to what is going to be happening in the rest of the book.

Indeed, the first few verses explain that John is going to testify to the gospel itself and that this is all about Jesus.

///1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.///

scripture speaks about prophets............righteous and false prophets............a sure litmus test for false prophets is predicting something and it not coming to pass or by what name they come in, who they represent.............so some prophets can be relied on and some can't be trusted.................

Except this writing is not prophecy, it's apocalyptic vision. There's a whole category of Jewish literature in this camp from around 200BC to 200AD. John was writing in a known genre that used common biblical metaphors to make theological points not future timetables.

now again we obviously read right at the beginning this PROPHECY belongs to Christ and even more so it was given to him by his FATHER in heaven and it was given specifically to show his servants things that will shortly COME TO PASS..........................so who more trustworthy than the Father and Son to tell us the truth of things that must shortly come to pass................

Jesus said the world will hate us because it first hated him. Question: Is that a specific prophecy or a general description of the times in which we live? I'm just not convinced that a single word of Revelation is prophetic. It's theological truth about the time between Jesus resurrection and his return. It describes this age, and warns us generally about what it will be like.

now the question.............you say its not literal.............by literal do you claim in advance (prophesy) that what is written here will NOT COME TO PASS (future of our present time).......? if so then I must rely more on the Father and Son and their prophecy..............and yours would be deemed a false prophecy and you a false prophet..............

Discussing the word literal with you is meaningless after your confusion of definitions above. The way you described Revelation is like saying it's a Republican Democrat, or a round square. It's meaningless. I have absolutely no idea what you mean by the word literal when you freely admit the book is full of symbolism?

Maybe look up a dictionary?

Look, do you simply mean by 'literal' that the book is true? Here's the rub. I agree with you. But something can be true without being literal. I suggest you come to terms with a few literary terms: look up a dictionary definition of literal, metaphor, symbolism, parable, history, poem, etc, to try and come to terms with different genres of writing.

 

[Manasseh_]

PRESENT RULER!

John is not writing about some far distant rule of Jesus over the Earth. I have no idea where or why futurists insert 2000 years! John is writing to say Jesus rules from heaven right now. The Kingdom of God is a present reality.

oh I get it, you're a preterist or at least a partial preterist................although you refused to answer a simple question with a simple answer through all your diatribe I began to understand your lack of understanding about prophecy..............your above statement is the give away.......................

"futurists" as you call us (a preterist buzz word) did not insert 2000 years simply because a number of prophesies still have yet to be fulfilled................apparently you have either forgotten many of them or have no knowledge of them in the first place...........

let me help you understand..............
Christ's kingdom is not ruling on earth as of yet for a simple reason..........he hasn't received that kingdom from his father yet because another promise must be fulfilled first................

King David had this to say ...........a prophecy.............

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

.......then Peter repeats it in the NT

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

God the Father makes his Son (Christ) a promise as he invites him to sit at his throne.................until I make thine enemies thy footstool

the question which really doesn't need to be asked but for the sake of the point....................

Does Christ still have enemies here on earth ?

I've asked this question to a number of preterists and everyone of them must have learned the same dance steps.........side stepping the question skirting around it, and some flat out refusing to answer.........

the answer is obvious to any sound minded person............of course Christ still has enemies here on earth, in fact the whole world and its ways are enemies to Christ................also obvious is that God the father has not vanquished those enemies , but he will as it is written in REVELATION............the beast,false prophet, babylon and those wicked people who choose to worship them ...........prophecies still unfulfilled

1Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

and here's the last enemy that is destroyed.................

death hasn't been destroyed.........men still die in this world.........if Christ is ruling as you claim then he has failed in one of his prophecies and should be deemed a false prophet.......God forbid we know this isn't true simply because the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled
When will this enemy be destroyed ? Christ foretold this a number of times in John 6..............the LAST DAY
once again this isn't the last day.............yet an unfulfilled prophecy

in 1Cor 15 we find at the same time is when the kingdom will come........verses 23-28

............the point made...........Revelation , much of it still yet to be fulfilled despite naysayers like you ................and those that believe these prophecies still will pray to God, thy KINGDOM COME......

your idea of Christ as King makes him out to be some weakling king who really can't rule over this unruly world, still allowing satan to deceive , men still allowed to blaspheme God and continue in sin......that's not the KING of kings portrayed in scripture...........the real Christ will return LITERALLY hear on earth , rule over all nations with a rod of iron and all knees will bow to this KING

you can read more of how he will rule in Zechariah 14

your thinking is like the Pharisees............not the powerful kingdom of God that Christ proclaimed would come to earth but their own personal ideas of what kind of kingdom they wanted

your premise fails ,both historically and scripturally

 

[eclipsenow]

oh I get it, you're a preterist or at least a partial preterist................although you refused to answer a simple question with a simple answer through all your diatribe I began to understand your lack of understanding about prophecy..............your above statement is the give away.......................

No. I'm sympathetic to Partial Preterists but am more of a "Symbolist". That means it speaks generically of all ages, rather than specifically of any. I thought I explained that? For example, you futurists trying to pinpoint when XYZ happens in Revelation sounds as silly to Symbolists's as trying to pinpoint when "They hated me therefore they'll hate you" is fulfilled. It's that silly. It's generic theology rather than specific prophecy.

"futurists" as you call us (a preterist buzz word) did not insert 2000 years simply because a number of prophesies still have yet to be fulfilled................apparently you have either forgotten many of them or have no knowledge of them in the first place...........

Yes you did, as you're now relying on the ASSUMPTION of it being prophecy to try and PROVE that it's prophecy. How's that circular argument really proving anything?

King David had this to say ...........a prophecy.............

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

.......then Peter repeats it in the NT

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

God the Father makes his Son (Christ) a promise as he invites him to sit at his throne.................until I make thine enemies thy footstool

the question which really doesn't need to be asked but for the sake of the point....................

Does Christ still have enemies here on earth ?

I've asked this question to a number of preterists and everyone of them must have learned the same dance steps.........side stepping the question skirting around it, and some flat out refusing to answer.........

Acts 2 is exactly why I believe Christ's kingdom is the church and is ruling NOW! (Spiritually). You couldn't have quoted a stranger passage to attempt to argue for 'unfulfilled' prophecy! This is about the church, or we're not Christians!

ACTS 2

31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[f]

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

In other words, he IS the Messiah. NOW! And that is the basis of our faith. That is why the Jews were cut to the heart. That is why the church grew by 3000 people that day! WE CHRISTIANS are the kingdom of God. Not some silly half-immortal, half-mortal 'Millennium'.

the answer is obvious to any sound minded person............of course Christ still has enemies here on earth, in fact the whole world and its ways are enemies to Christ................also obvious is that God the father has not vanquished those enemies , but he will as it is written in REVELATION............the beast,false prophet, babylon and those wicked people who choose to worship them ...........prophecies still unfulfilled

And that's what Revelation is all about isn't it? The patience and final, eternal security of the suffering church. But nevertheless, we are already seated in heaven (Ephesians 2) even though our bodies are here on earth. It's a 'now and not yet' thing called "Eschatology tension".

1Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Agreed! So the gospel promise is that one day the Lord shall return, the dead shall be raised and judged, sin, Satan, and death will be destroyed, and the new heavens and new earth will be installed for us to enjoy forever. That's the kingdom fully realised! That's heaven! But right now WE are still in the kingdom, otherwise you're basically contradicting everything the New Testament teaches about the nature of the church. I suggest reading Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. That, or just listening to Kim Riddlebarger's podcasts on the Kingdom of God. (See podcast list down right hand column).
Riddleblog - The Latest Post

 

[Manasseh_]

Acts 2 is exactly why I believe Christ's kingdom is the church and is ruling NOW! (Spiritually). You couldn't have quoted a stranger passage to attempt to argue for 'unfulfilled' prophecy! This is about the church, or we're not Christians!

well just as I stated in my last post as preterists in the past dodged David's prophecy you did the same and skirted David's prophecy altogether............you say you're not a preterist but you seemed have learned their same dance................you skipped David's prophecy and only commented on Peter repeating it

again maybe you don't realize how important this prophecy is, I only mentioned Peter's account because he directly mentioned David...........but the prophecy is in a number of places in the NT

Matthew 22:44 / Mark 12:36 /Luke 20:43/ Acts 2:35/ Hebrews 1:13
Hebrews 10:13/

and now you've also redefined Christ's kingdom..............prophecy states clearly that he will rule over ALL NATIONS as KING of kings....

so he rules over the whole earth , not only the church (his body) so his kingdom obviously cannot be exclusive to Christ ruling over the church only........

Zechariah even gives a number of details, when he (Christ) establishes his kingdom over ALL NATIONS and some of those nations might refuse to come to him and give homage and recognize him as KING OF kings......................

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain ; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

the peoples / nations described here obviously are not the Church of Christ ............yet he is ruling over them all and rebuking them if they fail the commands of God to worship him as KING of kings.....

so once again it's easily seen you have no idea what the Kingdom of God is and from that all your other assumptions, conjectures and suppositions are in error as well

scripture defines it's own definitions, there is no license for people to make up their own definitions to suit personal beliefs.......in scripture that's called private interpretation...........we either accept or reject the scriptural definition of Christ's kingdom as put forth by scripture............Calvin rejected it.............apparently you also do

 

[eclipsenow]

well just as I stated in my last post as preterists in the past dodged David's prophecy you did the same and skirted David's prophecy altogether............you say you're not a preterist but you seemed have learned their same dance................you skipped David's prophecy and only commented on Peter repeating it

again maybe you don't realize how important this prophecy is, I only mentioned Peter's account because he directly mentioned David...........but the prophecy is in a number of places in the NT

Matthew 22:44 / Mark 12:36 /Luke 20:43/ Acts 2:35/ Hebrews 1:13
Hebrews 10:13/

and now you've also redefined Christ's kingdom..............prophecy states clearly that he will rule over ALL NATIONS as KING of kings....

so he rules over the whole earth , not only the church (his body) so his kingdom obviously cannot be exclusive to Christ ruling over the church only........

Zechariah even gives a number of details, when he (Christ) establishes his kingdom over ALL NATIONS and some of those nations might refuse to come to him and give homage and recognize him as KING OF kings......................

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain ; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

the peoples / nations described here obviously are not the Church of Christ ............yet he is ruling over them all and rebuking them if they fail the commands of God to worship him as KING of kings.....

so once again it's easily seen you have no idea what the Kingdom of God is and from that all your other assumptions, conjectures and suppositions are in error as well

scripture defines it's own definitions, there is no license for people to make up their own definitions to suit personal beliefs.......in scripture that's called private interpretation...........we either accept or reject the scriptural definition of Christ's kingdom as put forth by scripture............Calvin rejected it.............apparently you also do

So you read Zech 14 over the New Testament, and don't allow Jesus or the Apostles to interpret the Old Testament for us? How interesting. No wonder you reject Calvin rejecting the silliness of Millennialism.

Not only did you get that wrong, but this as well. The Davidic prophecies you refer to are one of the key foundations of our understanding of the church as the Kingdom of God, not some argument against that fact of the New Testament. I'm too busy now but I'll get back to you with more on that later. If you want to here it really expounded, listen to these 2.

http://links.christreformed.org/realaudio/A20090925-Amillenialism.mp3

http://links.christreformed.org/realaudio/A20091002-Amillenialism.mp3

 

[johnthewitness]

He will return in 2018. Satan has deceived people into thinking that the regathering of Israel happened in 1948. This was Satan's counterfeit regathering. Israel (the nation in the middle east) is Mystery Babylon the Great.



Many Christians believe Israel is a divine nation of God based on the founding of the nation Israel in 1948 which seems to correspond to Ezekiel’s prophecy. Most historians agree with the fact that Judah was enslaved by the Babylonians for 60 years rather than the necessary 70 that is used to arrive at the 1948 number (Wikipedia). Also why would you use the number 70, a number that is symbolic of completeness, when we know that Judah’s punishment was not completed because they were punished 7x more for their sins. Lets see what happens when we use the number 60 which seems to be more historically accurate…


390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes ‘Israel’
+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes ‘Judah’
= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel


With the northern tribes of Israel having already been taken captive by the Assyrians, in 597 B.C. Judah was also taken into captivity by the Babylonians until 537 B.C. for a grand total of exactly 60 years (Wikipedia). Instead of the 70 that most use to arrive at the year 1948. We’ll get into where this commonly used 70 number comes from later…


430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel
- 60 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity
= 370 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel


“And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins.” (Leviticus 26:18)
”And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.”
(Leviticus 26:27-28)

Surely enough, Judah did not obey God and was forced to endure the 7x multiplier of God’s wraith.


This leaves us with:
370 Remaining years of judgment
x 7 ’7X’ rule
= 2,590 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel


2,590 years
x 360 days
= 932,400 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity


Convert the 932,400 days into our 365.25 day solar (Julian) years.
932,400 days ÷ 365.25 days = 2,552.77 years of God’s judgment remained

597 BCE
+ 60 Years
= 537.3 B.C. Spring of 537 B.C. Cyrus allows Jews to return to Jerusalem
+ 2552.77 Years Now add the 2,552 years remaining in this judgment
= 2017 A.D. End of judgment against Israel


Click here for the date calculator I used.


2017 A.D seems to be much closer to the date of the real regathering. However I would have been much happier to see 2018, as that correlates to the year that I believe the Israel will be destroyed. I believe that I am one of the witnesses spoken of in Revelation. I was called by God in the 7th month of 2011, which I believe marked the point that is 7 years from the completion of the tribulation. 7 years from 2011 would be 2018. The 2017 date obviously is off by a year. Then again those who use the 70 year captivity theory to arrive at the 1948 date were off by 2 years. (Source) Apparently the ancient Hebrews counted portions of a year as one year, with this acknowledged then the 2018 date appears to be valid. Also it does not necessarily need to be 2018. As the time that God will end his judgment upon Israel (2017) does not necessarily need to be the exact year that Mystery Babylon the Great will be destroyed (2018).
Now to address the issue of the number 70 and why many Christians use it..


Mystery Babylon the Great will be a nation that lasts 70 years

This is what the LORD says: “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place. 11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back from captivity.[a] I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.” (Jeremiah 29:10-14)

This segment of Jeremiah conflicts with the historically accepted 60 year length of Judah’s Babylonian captivity. Could it be that this passage, instead of referring to the length of the upcoming captivity, is instead referring to the duration, the total amount of years, that ancient Babylon would be a superpower? Will it also refer to the amount of years that Mystery Babylon the Great will be a nation?


Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. (Jeremiah 25:9-11)

It seems clear from the context in these two segments that the seventy years applies to Babylon itself, not to the period of time that the people of Judah are to spend in Babylon. In chapter 25 it says that the nations would serve Babylon for 70 years. Again in chapter 29, Jeremiah makes the connection to Babylon by saying that 70 years are “for Babylon”.
So the 70 years refers to the period of Babylonian Empire. When did this start and finish? As alluded to earlier, Babylon was conquered by Cyrus II of Persia in 539 BC. So this is the finish. When was the start? For our purposes, the start would have to be when the other “nations will serve the king of Babylon” (see excerpt from Jeremiah 25 above). The major world power prior to Babylon was Assyria.


“For a good overview of the decline of the Assyrian Empire refer to the Encyclopaedia Britannica (see article in Britannica CD 99: The History of Ancient Mesopotamia: Mesopotamia to the end of the: THE NEO-ASSYRIAN EMPIRE (746-609): Decline of the Assyrian empire). Here it describes how the Assyrian empire, after becoming weakened through civil war, fell to the combined forces of the Medes and the Babylonians, finally being extinguished in 609 BC. In this final battle, the Assyrians and the Egyptians fought side-by-side. Prior to being conquered by the Medes and Babylonians, the Egyptians fought against Judah – and Judah lost. This is the battle where Josiah was killed. The chronology of Judah places this event in 608 BC – but that is close enough to 609 BC when a 1 year margin of error is assumed.” (BibleWorldHistory)


The very name Mystery Babylon the Great implies that this adulterous nation will have many of the same qualities and characteristics of ancient Babylon. Israel became a nation in 1948. 70 years from this would be 2018. Notice, Jeremiah 29:10-14 uses terminology which has previously been used to describe the tribulation-era regathering of both kingdom’s of Israel… “I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you“, meaning that this is also talking about the great regathering of both kingdoms that happens during the tribulation. This passage is stating that when Mystery Babylon the Great’s 70 years are complete then the regathering will begin. Israel was founded in 1948. 70 years from that date would be 2018! Obviously this corresponds to the 2017-2018 date that we came to earlier using the more accurate 60 year Babylonian captivity.

Mystery Babylon The Great Is Israel

 

[eclipsenow]

He will return in 2018. Satan has deceived people into thinking that the regathering of Israel happened in 1948. This was Satan's counterfeit regathering. Israel (the nation in the middle east) is Mystery Babylon the Great.

Yeah, have fun with all that. But the vast majority of Old Testament prophecy is fulfilled in Jesus and us, the church. We're the kingdom of God now, and the bible simply doesn't have much concern for the Old Covenant 'kingdom' of Israel any more. I am more convinced in Reformed Covenant theology every time I see a new 'End Times Table' laying out 20 reasons why the Lord will return on XYZ date. You futurists couldn't agree on how to run a chook raffle. You all read different prophetic verses differently; all have your own schemes and agendas; all have your own favourite emphasis and programs.

While some of the early church fathers may have been Premil, they were NOT Dispensationalist. They really sound like Covenant theologians.

EG: Justyn Martyr believed us Christians are the true spiritual descendants of Abraham. The WHOLE bible is a unified purpose. From the beginning to the end it all focuses on Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER CXXXV -- CHRIST IS KING OF ISRAEL, AND CHRISTIANS ARE THE ISRAELITIC RACE.
Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. But let us attend rather to the very word: 'And I will bring forth,' He says, 'the seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah: and it shall inherit My holy mountain; and Mine Elect and My servants shall possess the inheritance, and shall dwell there; and there shall be folds of flocks in the thicket, and the valley of Achor shall be a resting-place of cattle for the people who have sought Me. But as for you, who forsake Me, and forget My holy mountain, and prepare a table for demons, and fill out drink for the demon, I shall give you to the sword. You shall all fall with a slaughter; for I called you, and you hearkened not, and did evil before me, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.' Such are the words of Scripture; understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people.
Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)

Irenaeus: "But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessings of Esau. For which cause his brother suffered the plots and persecutions of a brother, just as the Church suffers this self-same thing from the Jews."

Ambrosiaster: "Thus whoever believes that Christ Jesus was promised to Abraham is a child of Abraham and a brother of Isaac. Abraham was told that all the nations would be blessed in his offspring. This happened not in Isaac, but in him who was promised to Abraham in Isaac, that is, Christ, in whom all the nations are blessed when they believe.

Covenant Theology starts the journey into seeing Old Testament prophesies as about Christ and us. Now some of these early church fathers had some 'futurist bits' like Historic Premillennialism, but they were NOT Dispensationalist! There were also rumours of other systems like Amillennialism around from early on. It's just a shame that these writings did not survive history, but at least we have the bible. And that's enough for me.

Jesus says "My kingdom is not of this world" and that we "Do not know the time or hour". We should focus on the gospel that brings people into the kingdom, not all these silly fallible 'End Times Tables'. Harold Camping thought he knew the date too.

I'll keep an eye on 2018 and, God willing and health permitting, be back here to pester you about it when it doesn't work out that way!

 

[Gary7]

At Armageddon, riding on a white horse with an army from heaven.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Yeah, have fun with all that. But the vast majority of Old Testament prophecy is fulfilled in Jesus and us, the church. We're the kingdom of God now, and the bible simply doesn't have much concern for the Old Covenant 'kingdom' of Israel any more. I am more convinced in Reformed Covenant theology every time I see a new 'End Times Table' laying out 20 reasons why the Lord will return on XYZ date. You futurists couldn't agree on how to run a chook raffle. You all read different prophetic verses differently; all have your own schemes and agendas; all have your own favourite emphasis and programs.

While some of the early church fathers may have been Premil, they were NOT Dispensationalist. They really sound like Covenant theologians.

EG: Justyn Martyr believed us Christians are the true spiritual descendants of Abraham. The WHOLE bible is a unified purpose. From the beginning to the end it all focuses on Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER CXXXV -- CHRIST IS KING OF ISRAEL, AND CHRISTIANS ARE THE ISRAELITIC RACE.
Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. But let us attend rather to the very word: 'And I will bring forth,' He says, 'the seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah: and it shall inherit My holy mountain; and Mine Elect and My servants shall possess the inheritance, and shall dwell there; and there shall be folds of flocks in the thicket, and the valley of Achor shall be a resting-place of cattle for the people who have sought Me. But as for you, who forsake Me, and forget My holy mountain, and prepare a table for demons, and fill out drink for the demon, I shall give you to the sword. You shall all fall with a slaughter; for I called you, and you hearkened not, and did evil before me, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.' Such are the words of Scripture; understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people.
Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)

Irenaeus: "But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessings of Esau. For which cause his brother suffered the plots and persecutions of a brother, just as the Church suffers this self-same thing from the Jews."

Ambrosiaster: "Thus whoever believes that Christ Jesus was promised to Abraham is a child of Abraham and a brother of Isaac. Abraham was told that all the nations would be blessed in his offspring. This happened not in Isaac, but in him who was promised to Abraham in Isaac, that is, Christ, in whom all the nations are blessed when they believe.

Covenant Theology starts the journey into seeing Old Testament prophesies as about Christ and us. Now some of these early church fathers had some 'futurist bits' like Historic Premillennialism, but they were NOT Dispensationalist! There were also rumours of other systems like Amillennialism around from early on. It's just a shame that these writings did not survive history, but at least we have the bible. And that's enough for me.

Jesus says "My kingdom is not of this world" and that we "Do not know the time or hour". We should focus on the gospel that brings people into the kingdom, not all these silly fallible 'End Times Tables'. Harold Camping thought he knew the date too.

I'll keep an eye on 2018 and, God willing and health permitting, be back here to pester you about it when it doesn't work out that way!

You said it, good post.

I love what St. Vincent of Lérins said: "what has been believed everywhere, always and by all". Futurism and dispensationalism are so fragmented it only serves to confirm its fallacy IMHO.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #456:

Except that almost the entire book is not literal . . .

Rev. is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Rev. 22:10), meaning it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 1:20, 17:9-12), & Rev.'s few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Dan. 7:4-7,17). Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Rev. 19:7-20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding trib in Rev. chs. 6-18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Rev. 20 will be literal, & will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21), when he'll reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 2, 66:3-4). After that, the events of Rev. 20:7-22:5 will occur literally.

Revelation 5 does NOT say that Jesus was 'like' a lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes. It does NOT say that it is a parable!

It hasn't been said Rev. 5 is a parable. Re: Rev. 5:6, see the "Rev. 5:6" part of post #446.

So how do we know what to do with it?

By comparing each part of each verse with other verses (Isa. 28:9-10, 1 Cor. 2:13). E.g., we know Jesus isn't literally a lamb with 7 horns & 7 eyes (Rev. 5:6) because other verses show he's literally a human (Lk. 24:39, 1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:24-26, 2:17).

Oh, so in that case we KNOW the beasts of Revelation 13 are only metaphors because Daniel explained they were only metaphors for enemies of God's kingdom. Fine. And then John mixes these images up even further. So why are you telling us to read them literally?

It hasn't been said Rev. 13's beasts are literal. The 7 heads of Rev. 13's beast from the sea in its empire aspect (Rev. 13:1, 17:3) represent 7 empires (Rev. 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, & (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Rev. 17:10, 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Rev. 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Rev. 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the AC, the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Rev. 17:11), which will be a revival of 1 of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Rev. 17:8,10-11). It could be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The AC may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, & so reinstitute the system Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Dan. 3, Rev. 13:15).

And the AC could make his world capital in the rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), & build a main temple to himself (& Satan) there. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zech. 5:8,11), & the AC's called "that Wicked" (2 Thes. 2:8). He may also claim to be Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Gen. 10:8-10), & Hammurabi, & Asoka, et al. For he may claim he's had many different "past lives" as different human rulers.

---

Re: Rev. 13's beast which comes up out of the earth (vv. 11-16), it represents the individual man who'll become the AC's False Prophet (FP) (Rev. 19:20, 16:13). He could currently be a (secretly apostate) cardinal in the RCC, preparing himself to become the next pope. If he becomes the next pope, he could begin his tenure by making a great push for peace & unity between Christianity & Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "A Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, the next pope could come to hold high positions of power in 2 religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the 2 horns of the FP lamb (Rev. 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Rev. 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Rev. 19:12). The FP could even say that he is Jesus.

One minute we are to read EVERYTHING in Revelation 'literally' . . .

It hasn't been said everything in Rev. is literal.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #462:

Revelation 1:1
"1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

SOON!

See the "Soon" part of post #433.

The Kingdom of God is a present reality.

Presently the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Tim. 4:18, Heb. 12:22-24), & is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Rom. 14:17, Lk. 17:21). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon earth as it is in heaven (Mt. 6:10). It will be physically (Lk. 22:30, Mt. 19:28) on the earth (Rev. 5:10), first during the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 2:26-29) & then on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (Jn. 1:49, 12:13-15, 19:19, Lk. 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he'll sit on the earthly throne of David (Lk. 1:32, Isa. 9:7) & restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Mt. 1:1, 21:15-16, Rom. 1:3), of the house of David (Lk. 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he'll restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isa. 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Sam. 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kin. 17:21a), & fulfill the prophecy & prayer of 2 Sam. 7:16-29. And Jesus will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David, for they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zech. 12:10-14, 13:1,6, Rom. 11:26-31). And so they'll all become part of the church at that time, for there are no believers outside of the church (Eph. 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:3) will occur the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6), during which, Gentile nations will come up to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zech. 8:22, 14:9, Ps. 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isa. 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isa. 2:1-4, Zech. 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with him during the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), for the church is Israel (Rev. 21:9,12, 1 Pet. 2:9-10).

His Kingdom is not of this world.

Jn. 18:36 meant Jesus' future, physical reign on the earth, with the physically resurrected church (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (2 Cor. 10:3-4, Mt. 26:52, 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning from heaven to establish it (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21). Also, after the millennium & subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15), a new earth will be created & God's kingdom will be on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-22:5).

When he returns, this whole UNIVERSE is due for an upgrade. (2 Peter 3:10-13 = DAY OF LORD = like a thief = "a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.")

See the "2 Pet. 3:10" part of post #439.

Revelation is full of biblical symbols and is not dependent on modern newspaper headlines and geopolitics to understand.

See the "Futurism considers" part of post #446.

 

[Achilles6129]

Agree with Bible2's post about most of Revelation being literal.

Parts of Revelation seem to be based heavily on Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. Obviously there are many other references in there to the other prophets as well.

The big question is when Revelation will happen. We've kept this thread going for over 2 years now (!!!!) - perhaps we should try to keep it going until Christ returns (lol).

It seems that we're moving towards the society mentioned in the book of Revelation. People are farther now from the real gospel of Jesus Christ than they ever have been before. Virtually the entire world has been convinced that the Bible is a myth (even some theologians now deny Moses wrote most of the Pentateuch; Peter from 1 and 2 Peter; Paul wrote Ephesians; John wrote the gospel of John, etc.).

I have always maintained that the book of Revelation will begin basically when there's no-one left alive for God and his ways. In other words, I think that God is going to wait until virtually everyone is disobeying His gospel.

I think that's what "his wife has made herself ready" in Rev. 19 is code for. It means that everyone who will ever obey the gospel of Jesus Christ has already obeyed it (obviously this is at the Second Coming).

So, basically, things are only going to get worse from here on out. Paul, Peter, and Jesus Christ warned us that the last days would be terrible times (2 Tim. 3, 4, 2 Pet. 2, 3, Mt. 24). They warned us that the last days would be filled with iniquity, evil, and deception. These warnings should inspire us to search the Scriptures further and examine everything carefully as we await the Lord's return.

 

[eclipsenow]

Agree with Bible2's post about most of Revelation being literal.

Especially that bit about Jesus having 7 horns and 7 eyes. So literal! Especially there being 7 Holy Spirits. So literal! Especially the church being like a lady with 12 stars. (Rev 12) So literal.

Umm, are we reading the same book?

Parts of Revelation seem to be based heavily on Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.

And these weren't literal either. They used biblical symbolism. Please get to know your biblical symbols and genre types! There's history, biography, creative narratives, songs, love poetry, Psalms, lectures, sermons, metaphors, biblical symbolism... all manner of genres in the bible! One does not have to read 'literally' to read faithfully, one has to read literary types as they are to... read. What you do with the actual understanding recognising a genre type gives you, well, that is either faithful or disobedient. But not being able to read properly in the first place is not a sign of godliness, but of poor education. Reading poetry or metaphors literally is ... just plain poor reading. And, as we're talking about the bible here, ultimately harmful.

The big question is when Revelation will happen. We've kept this thread going for over 2 years now (!!!!) - perhaps we should try to keep it going until Christ returns (lol).

The big question is if you go ahead and insist that Revelation hasn't 'happened' yet, WHAT GOOD has it been for the church for the last 2000 years? If the majority of a book is some looney tunes Last Days timetable (as many here insist 6-20 is a timetable), then ... why hasn't the church just chopped it out of their bibles until that last generation? What GOOD has it done anyone? It completely baffles me that you futurists could POSSIBLY justify this reading of Revelation given the immediacy of Chapter 1, where John identifies everything will happen soon, because the time is near, because he is already a fellow-sufferer in the tribulations of his day. (Being under house arrest on Patmos for his faith). The Last Days started in Acts 2. The suffering of the church started from the moment of its inception. To be a Christian before the Lord's return is to BE in the tribulation, and to have John's sermon apply to you and be about you and comfort you in generic biblical symbols and theology.

To rip Revelation away from our context and apply it to some future date is to make it meaningless to us. Just cut it out of the bible thanks, if that's what it's about.

 

[Achilles6129]

Especially that bit about Jesus having 7 horns and 7 eyes. So literal! Especially there being 7 Holy Spirits. So literal! Especially the church being like a lady with 12 stars. (Rev 12) So literal.

I think both Bible2 and I were talking about the plagues in Revelation. Obviously there are symbolic elements, which you mentioned.

The big question is if you go ahead and insist that Revelation hasn't 'happened' yet, WHAT GOOD has it been for the church for the last 2000 years? If the majority of a book is some looney tunes Last Days timetable (as many here insist 6-20 is a timetable), then ... why hasn't the church just chopped it out of their bibles until that last generation? What GOOD has it done anyone?

Well, first of all we have no idea when the last generation will be (I personally believe Revelation will occur sometime within the next several decades). We thus have no idea when the book of Revelation would occur. It doesn't make any sense to chop it out of our Bibles since it could occur at any time, just like other prophecies that are unfulfilled (Isa. 17, Ezek. 38-39, Isa. 2, 34, etc.).

Revelation is very important because it lets us know what's coming upon the planet. This way we can know what to expect and know exactly what God's going to do - just as God warned Noah about the global Flood, so too he's warned us through the book of Revelation.

It completely baffles me that you futurists could POSSIBLY justify this reading of Revelation given the immediacy of Chapter 1, where John identifies everything will happen soon, because the time is near,

"Soon" from God's point of view. Remember that 1000 years with God is as a day and a day as 1000 years. John is not speaking from a human perspective; indeed, much of the Bible is not written from a human perspective.

because he is already a fellow-sufferer in the tribulations of his day. (Being under house arrest on Patmos for his faith). The Last Days started in Acts 2.

I agree that the 'last days' referred to in much of the NT is indeed the church age.

The suffering of the church started from the moment of its inception. To be a Christian before the Lord's return is to BE in the tribulation, and to have John's sermon apply to you and be about you and comfort you in generic biblical symbols and theology.

Indeed, we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God (Ac. 14:22).

To rip Revelation away from our context and apply it to some future date is to make it meaningless to us. Just cut it out of the bible thanks, if that's what it's about.

I think that it is definitely future. The reason I think that is because the arguments from the past have not been that compelling (in my opinion). If you can make a good argument (that makes sense) that Revelation has happened in the past, I would love to hear it.

In other words, I simply objectively think that Revelation makes the most sense if it hasn't happened yet. I wouldn't mind hearing opposing arguments, however.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Smartphones are playing a huge part of endtimes as well, linking man to machine for the entirety of his day.

When asked by a salesperson if I'd like the visa paypass app applied to my new phone so I could use my phone in lieu of cash or a check and wouldnt even need a card, my response was........nah, I think I'll just use it for better coverage and pay cash for my goods.

 

[Achilles6129]

Smartphones are playing a huge part of endtimes as well, linking man to machine for the entirety of his day.

When asked by a salesperson if I'd like the visa paypass app applied to my new phone so I could use my phone in lieu of cash or a check and wouldnt even need a card, my response was........nah, I think I'll just use it for better coverage and pay cash for my goods.

Good decision

On the subject of technology, there is no doubt that it has a huge role to play in the book of Revelation. The 'wonders' that the false prophet does are no doubt technological. The deceptive 'miracles' that Christ mentions in Mt. 24:24-25 are also technological. Not to mention, the mark of the beast has to do with some sort of technology as well.

 

[doright]

I Think It Is Silly To Think That God Doesn't Know The Difference Between A Day And A Thousand Years.
What Peter Was Saying Was A Day Of Creation Is Equal To 1000 Years Of Man's Rule Of Earth,

Don't Know How Close The Jews Are On Their Time Table But They Say We Are Well Into The 5,900 Year
And With The Nation Of Israel Being 64 Years Old Now, I Would Say We Are In The Last Few Years
And The Book Of Rev. Being 10 1/2 Years Long

2012 Plus 10 1/2 Years = 2023

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

I Think It Is Silly To Think That God Doesn't Know The Difference Between A Day And A Thousand Years.
What Peter Was Saying Was A Day Of Creation Is Equal To 1000 Years Of Man's Rule Of Earth,

Don't Know How Close The Jews Are On Their Time Table But They Say We Are Well Into The 5,900 Year
And With The Nation Of Israel Being 64 Years Old Now, I Would Say We Are In The Last Few Years
And The Book Of Rev. Being 10 1/2 Years Long

2012 Plus 10 1/2 Years = 2023

Thats a fair assessment

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Good decision

On the subject of technology, there is no doubt that it has a huge role to play in the book of Revelation. The 'wonders' that the false prophet does are no doubt technological. The deceptive 'miracles' that Christ mentions in Mt. 24:24-25 are also technological. Not to mention, the mark of the beast has to do with some sort of technology as well.

Spot on brother. Yet so very many sheep are so blinded by the false shepherd. So fastly we are heading into the technological eden.