When was the Book of Revelation written?

[David Kent]

Duplicated.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The death f Antipas has no bearing on the date of revelation it was long before Revelation was written

• Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Scoffers always say that books of the bible were written long after they were because they don't believe in prophecy. The NT apart from Revelation was all written before AD70. That is how they get 2, 3 or 4 diferent Isaiahs, and Daniel written about 160BC.

Rev 20:4-6 mentions a "first resurrection" of Christian martyrs who were beheaded.

Not crucified, as most of the Apostles, but beheaded, reserved only for Roman citizens like St. Paul.

So, Rev 20:4-6 appears to reassure the Churches of Asia Minor, founded by St. Paul, that their beloved "spiritual father" St. Paul would get his special reward in the then-Biblically-soon-to-come Millennium

Ergo, Rev 20:4-6 was (plausibly) written very soon after St. Paul was beheaded in Rome, about the same time as St. Peter was crucified upside down, and (say some) St. John was miraculously saved from execution by a Daniel-like miracle... and so exiled to Patmos instead... where he received the visions of Revelation

If so, Rev was written after about 65-67 AD (when Nero tried to execute all of the surviving "pillars" of the Church) and before 70 AD (when the physical Temple of Herod was raised)

EDIT -- the licentious image of the "Babylon the harlot" "riding the Beast" may reflect the Biblically-adulterous marriage of Poppaea Sabina (whose first husband was then still living) and emperor Nero...

they were married through 65 AD, for a year after the Great Fire of Rome ("the mortal wound healed"), but Nero unexpectedly turned on Sabina and kicked her (and her unborn son) to death ("the beast will turn on her and tear her to pieces")

early 65 AD would be about when John was residing on Patmos, after having miraculously survived the spree of executions which claimed the lives of St. Peter & St. Paul, in the aftermath of the Great Fire, which emperor Nero and empress Sabina blamed on the Christians

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Please state whether you believe Revelation was written either post 70 AD or Pre 70 AD.

Additionally, please provide evidence to support your belief.

Doing a google search on "dating of Revelation christian forums", here are a list of threads:

https://www.google.com/search?q=dat...EqwKHejYDHkQrQIoBDAAegQIAxAN&biw=1366&bih=626

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION
Was Flavius Josephus familiar with the Apocalypse of John?

John's Revelation - “And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.” (16:18)

Josephus - “for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming” (“Wars of the Jews” 4:4:5) John's Revelation - "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (16:19)

Josephus - “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (5:1:1)

John's Revelation - “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (16:21)

Josephus - “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (5:6:3)....................
===========================
Some sites for those interested in the Preterist view.

Dating the Apocalypse | Preterist Archive
The final destruction of Jerusalem came in 70 A.D. God's purposes and plans were all in place by this time. Nothing remained to be done.

Preterism and the Date of Revelation

Preterism and the Date of Revelation | Study Archive

• STUDY TOPICS
  • Authorship: John the Apostle, Presbyter, Other
  • Babylon: Rome, Jerusalem, Other
  • Date of Composition: Before AD70, After AD70, Composite
  • Language of Origin: Greek, Syriac, Other
  • Antichrist: Nero, Nero Redivivus, Nero Rediturus, Etc.
  • Origin: Christian, Christian Redaction of Jewish Apocalyptic

=================================
Early Date of Revelation – The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology
When was the Book of Revelation written

Date of Revelation (AD 62)

Description: This deals with the evidence for determining the early pre-70 date of the book of Revelation. We date the book in relation to a number of factors, including internal and external considerations. We arrive at a date in the second half of AD 62, before Hebrews and 2nd Peter were written. There is a PDF lesson outline available for this podcast. Email us if you would like to have a copy of it: "Date of Revelation" on 8/19/2012. Please request it by title and date. Here is our email address: preterist1@preterist.org

 

[Biblewriter]

Almost all historians who are not prejudiced by Preterism conclude that the Revelation was given near the end of the reign of Domitian. Most of these assign it a date between 92 and 94 AD. This is because all conclusively stated Christian records that can even rationally be considered rational contain details that tie it to the latter part of Domitian’s reign. And of these seven authorities, four gave details that were included in no other account, thus revealing a minimum of four independent ultimate sources of information.

As the average historical date is based on no more than two ancient sources, this is considered nearly absolutely established.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Rev 20:4-6 mentions a "first resurrection" of Christian martyrs who were beheaded.

Not crucified, as most of the Apostles, but beheaded, reserved only for Roman citizens like St. Paul.

So, Rev 20:4-6 appears to reassure the Churches of Asia Minor, founded by St. Paul, that their beloved "spiritual father" St. Paul would get his special reward in the then-Biblically-soon-to-come Millennium

Ergo, Rev 20:4-6 was (plausibly) written very soon after St. Paul was beheaded in Rome, about the same time as St. Peter was crucified upside down, and (say some) St. John was miraculously saved from execution by a Daniel-like miracle... and so exiled to Patmos instead... where he received the visions of Revelation

If so, Rev was written after about 65-67 AD (when Nero tried to execute all of the surviving "pillars" of the Church) and before 70 AD (when the physical Temple of Herod was raised)

EDIT -- the licentious image of the "Babylon the harlot" "riding the Beast" may reflect the Biblically-adulterous marriage of Poppaea Sabina (whose first husband was then still living) and emperor Nero...

they were married through 65 AD, for a year after the Great Fire of Rome ("the mortal wound healed"), but Nero unexpectedly turned on Sabina and kicked her (and her unborn son) to death ("the beast will turn on her and tear her to pieces")

early 65 AD would be about when John was residing on Patmos, after having miraculously survived the spree of executions which claimed the lives of St. Peter & St. Paul, in the aftermath of the Great Fire, which emperor Nero and empress Sabina blamed on the Christians

This seems best so far. There's a lot of 'tradition' otherwise, but tradition is often wrong, and I think it is wrong in this case also - "on purpose" (hidden and known reasons).

 

[David Kent]

Almost all historians who are not prejudiced by Preterism conclude that the Revelation was given near the end of the reign of Domitian. Most of these assign it a date between 92 and 94 AD. This is because all conclusively stated Christian records that can even rationally be considered rational contain details that tie it to the latter part of Domitian’s reign. And of these seven authorities, four gave details that were included in no other account, thus revealing a minimum of four independent ultimate sources of information.

As the average historical date is based on no more than two ancient sources, this is considered nearly absolutely established.

I am sorry to agree with you for once, but I agree with you this time.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Almost all historians who are not prejudiced by Preterism conclude that the Revelation was given near the end of the reign of Domitian. Most of these assign it a date between 92 and 94 AD. This is because all conclusively stated Christian records that can even rationally be considered rational contain details that tie it to the latter part of Domitian’s reign. And of these seven authorities, four gave details that were included in no other account, thus revealing a minimum of four independent ultimate sources of information.

As the average historical date is based on no more than two ancient sources, this is considered nearly absolutely established.

Except of course, and as I already stated on this thread. The book of Revelation says when John received the vision and he was told to write.
Revelation 17: 9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Makes it during the reign of Nero. I have trouble believing he waited forty years to obey the order to write what he sees. I have always felt like my intelligence was being insulted by all these "scholars" who ascribe all these late dates to the NT based on nothing more than their feelings on the matter. AS IF the NT's own testimony of its own authors is not the primary evidence for the dates the letters and Gospels were written.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would tend to fall into the futurist category, not because of some date before or after the destruction of the temple though. The type of destruction worldwide that Revelations refers to I don't see any evidence of happening in the past. Certainly death and hades are not in the lake of fire. Nor have we seen the type of death and destruction mentioned in Revelations before. Not to mention we haven't seen the two witnesses or many other specific events

Revelation is not worldwide..............
It is a local region....Israel/Judea/Jerusalem...........

 

[Erik Nelson]

Almost all historians who are not prejudiced by Preterism conclude that the Revelation was given near the end of the reign of Domitian. Most of these assign it a date between 92 and 94 AD. This is because all conclusively stated Christian records that can even rationally be considered rational contain details that tie it to the latter part of Domitian’s reign. And of these seven authorities, four gave details that were included in no other account, thus revealing a minimum of four independent ultimate sources of information.

As the average historical date is based on no more than two ancient sources, this is considered nearly absolutely established.

not "prejudiced by Preterism" doesn't mean "not prejudiced [against Preterism]"

Rev 11 describes the Temple as still standing -- how can Rev be an accurate prophesy but be completely oblivious to the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD

God in heaven overlooked that minor detail? The desolation of the City of David in 70 AD didn't make it anywhere into Scripture??

If so, wouldn't many rightfully say that there is major glaring gap & omission & overlooking in the NT ?

 

[Biblewriter]

Except of course, and as I already stated on this thread. The book of Revelation says when John received the vision and he was told to write.
Revelation 17: 9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Makes it during the reign of Nero. I have trouble believing he waited forty years to obey the order to write what he sees. I have always felt like my intelligence was being insulted by all these "scholars" who ascribe all these late dates to the NT based on nothing more than their feelings on the matter. AS IF the NT's own testimony of its own authors is not the primary evidence for the dates the letters and Gospels were written.

This would be true ONLY if your interpretation of its meaning were correct. But as that interpretation is incorrect, your observation is erroneous.

 

[Biblewriter]

not "prejudiced by Preterism" doesn't mean "not prejudiced [against Preterism]"

Rev 11 describes the Temple as still standing -- how can Rev be an accurate prophesy but be completely oblivious to the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD

God in heaven overlooked that minor detail? The desolation of the City of David in 70 AD didn't make it anywhere into Scripture??

If so, wouldn't many rightfully say that there is major glaring gap & omission & overlooking in the NT ?

Other scriptures explicitly tell us the temple will be rebuilt, even as they explicitly said the city would again be populated.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

This would be true ONLY if your interpretation of its meaning were correct. But as that interpretation is incorrect, your observation is erroneous.

Daniel 2's end time prophecy states there will be 4 empires followed by God's kingdom filling the earth. It names the 1st empire as Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon. Daniel 7 repeats this prophecy with different illustrations and added details. Daniel 8 does the same thing and names the 2nd and 3rd empires for us. Not need for any "interpretations." It is interpreted for us in the scripture. Daniel 11 does the same thing. Tells us who the 2nd and 3rd empires are and goes into great detail about the wars between the Greek kings of of that 3rd empire. IE the wars between the Greek kings of Syria and Egypt with poor Israel stuck in between. Then in Daniel 11:36 it makes mention of Herod the Great then starting in Daniel 11:40 Octavian, the first emperor of the 4th empires conquering of Egypt, the last section of the Greek Empire. So We have our four empires named in Scripture.
Revelation uses the the same illustrations as one of Daniels prophecies about these 4 empires and clearly states that John is receiving his vision during the reign of the 6th emperor of that fourth empire. Revelation is expanding on Daniels visions. There is no debate over this. There is only knowledge and ignorance. John received his vision right at the start of the war in Judea and was told to write it down.
End Time Prophecy

 

[Biblewriter]

Daniel 2's end time prophecy states there will be 4 empires followed by God's kingdom filling the earth. It names the 1st empire as Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon. Daniel 7 repeats this prophecy with different illustrations and added details. Daniel 8 does the same thing and names the 2nd and 3rd empires for us. Not need for any "interpretations." It is interpreted for us in the scripture. Daniel 11 does the same thing. Tells us who the 2nd and 3rd empires are and goes into great detail about the wars between the Greek kings of of that 3rd empire. IE the wars between the Greek kings of Syria and Egypt with poor Israel stuck in between. Then in Daniel 11:36 it makes mention of Herod the Great then starting in Daniel 11:40 Octavian, the first emperor of the 4th empires conquering of Egypt, the last section of the Greek Empire. So We have our four empires named in Scripture.
Revelation uses the the same illustrations as one of Daniels prophecies about these 4 empires and clearly states that John is receiving his vision during the reign of the 6th emperor of that fourth empire. Revelation is expanding on Daniels visions. There is no debate over this. There is only knowledge and ignorance. John received his vision right at the start of the war in Judea and was told to write it down.
End Time Prophecy

It is pure imagination that Daniel 11:36 speaks of "Herod the Great." Every statement of Daniel 11:1-35a was literally fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail, without a single exception.

But from the the words "even to the time of the end" at the end of verse 35, the "fulfillments" claimed by Preterists and Historicists after this time are of an entirely different character. In EACH case, the alleged "fulfillment" was nothing but an event of history that had a slight resemblance to a very small part of what the prophecy said.

A prophecy has not been fulfilled until every detail of what it says has been fulfilled. And this is why, with the sole exception of Clement of Alexandria, the Christians who wrote on these things within the time when they would have know the actual details of what transpired, ALL concluded that the end time prophecies of Daniel remained to be fulfilled in the future. Why did they conclude this? because they KNEW that the events that had just recently taken place did not even resemble what had peen prophesied in the book of Daniel.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

It is pure imagination that Daniel 11:36 speaks of "Herod the Great." Every statement of Daniel 11:1-35a was literally fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail, without a single exception.

But from the the words "even to the time of the end" at the end of verse 35, the "fulfillments" claimed by Preterists and Historicists after this time are of an entirely different character. In EACH case, the alleged "fulfillment" was nothing but an event of history that had a slight resemblance to a very small part of what the prophecy said.

A prophecy has not been fulfilled until every detail of what it says has been fulfilled. And this is why, with the sole exception of Clement of Alexandria, the Christians who wrote on these things within the time when they would have know the actual details of what transpired, ALL concluded that the end time prophecies of Daniel remained to be fulfilled in the future. Why did they conclude this? because they KNEW that the events that had just recently taken place did not even resemble what had peen prophesied in the book of Daniel.

Not Herod?
36. And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

We come now to a remarkable personality, one who fills a large and prominent place in the prophecy, and who is introduced in the words of verse 36.

"HEROD THE KING"

—that remarkable character who was a usurper upon the throne of David when Christ, the true King, was born. The proof which enables us to identify "the king" of Daniel 11:36-39 with Herod the Great and his dynasty, is so convincing that we feel warranted in saying that the prophecy could not possibly mean anyone else.

It would be strange indeed if, in an outline which gives prominence to Xerxes, Alexander, the Seleucids, the Ptolemies, Antiochus Epiphanes, and the Maccabees, there were no mention of that remarkable personage who exerted upon Jewish affairs and destinies an influence greater than they all, and who sat upon the throne of Israel when Christ was born.

The words, "the king," should suffice, in the light of the context, without further description, to identify Herod to those who thoughtfully read their Bibles; for Herod alone is called by that title in the Gospels, and he alone had the rank and authority of "king" in Israel in the days after the captivity, "the latter days." The text does not speak of a king, but of the king, the emphatic Hebrew article being used. This is in marked contrast with the terms of v. 40, where the original speaks of "a king of the north," and "a king of the south."

A glance at the context is enough to show that "the king" of v. 36 cannot mean either of the kings of v. 27. Moreover, these are never spoken of as "the king," but always, both before and after v. 36, as "the king of the north," or "the king of the south," as the case may be. Nor does the Scripture speak of any "king" who is to arise at the time of the end of this present age, and who answers at all to the description of the prophecy. The "man of sin," described in 2Th 2:3-10, is supposed by some to be "the king" of Daniel 11:36. But he is not called a king, nor described as having kingly rank, but rather as one claiming divine worship in the temple of God, and backing up his pretensions by means of miracles and lying wonders. The "king" of Da 11:36 is a very different personage, and achieves his ends in a very different way, as will be clearly seen by all who diligently compare the two passages.

What has caused able commentators to go astray at this point, and in some instances to seek far afield for the interpretation of this passage, is the fact that they were unable to find anyone among the successors of Antiochus who answers at all to the description of "the king." But they have overlooked two things which, had they heeded them, would have kept them from being so misled. Those things are, first, that the prophecy has not for its subject the kingdoms of Syria or Egypt, but the people of Israel, and hence the expression, "the king," without other qualification, would mean one who was king over Daniel's people; and second, that the verses immediately preceding (31-35) relate wholly to the affairs of the Jews under the Asmonean princes, and hence the terms of the prophecy itself lead us to look at this point for the beginning of a new order of things in Israel. And that is just what history certifies to us; for, precisely at this juncture of affairs, the Asmonean dynasty was brought to an end by violence and bloodshed, and it was replaced by that of a "king," who answers perfectly to the description of the last part of the prophecy.

Moreover, and to this we would specially invite attention, it is said of this king that "he shall prosper until the indignation be accomplished" (or until wrath be completed), in fulfillment of which is the fact that the dynasty of Herod retained, through all the political upheavals of the times, its favour with Rome, and flourished in authority in Palestine, until the destruction of Jerusalem, which is the "wrath," or "indignation," or "tribulation," to which these prophecies of Daniel so frequently refer as "the end" of Jewish nationality. For it was "Herod the king" who sought to compass the death of Christ soon after His birth, and whose successors of his own family put to death John the Baptist (this was done by Herod Antipas) and James the brother of John (by Herod Agrippa I, who also imprisoned Peter, intending to deliver him to the Jews) and finally sent Paul in chains to Rome (which was done by Herod Agrippa II, the last of the dynasty, the man who is best known to the world as he who was "almost persuaded").

"ACCORDING TO HIS WILL"

The first thing said of this king is that he should "do according to his will." This is usually taken to mean that he would be of an exceptionally self-willed disposition, one of the sort who act without restraint, and without regard to the rights or the feelings of others. This may indeed be in part the meaning of the words; but much more than this is implied. Self-willed people are so very numerous that, if that were all that were meant, the words could not serve for purposes of identification. But not many are so placed, and have such power in their hands that they are able to "do," that is, to achieve or accomplish what they "will" or plan to do; and this is what is meant. For the expression is used in this same prophecy of two other notable personages. The first of these is Alexander the Great, of whom it is said that he "shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will" (Da 11:3). The other (Da 11:16) has been identified as Antiochus the Great. Of him also it is said, "he shall do according to his own will;" and history shows that this monarch, too, was very successful, during the first part of his reign, in carrying out his various designs.

This is what distinguished Herod the Great in a remarkable degree. For history records nothing of this nature more notable than Herod’s success in rising up from a lowly origin to the rank and authority of king, in securing for himself despotic power and retaining it through all the political changes of the times, and in the way he used that power for the accomplishment of all his designs, however stupendous in magnitude (as the rebuilding of the temple) or atrocious in character (as condemning to death his own wife and children). For Herod contrived to secure the favour and confidence, first of Julius Caesar, then of Mark Antony, and then of Octavius Caesar, though he had assisted Antony and Cleopatra against him. All things considered, there is nothing more wonderful in the career of Herod than his extraordinary success in doing "according to his will."

But, taking the expression in the other sense, we may say that it would be difficult to find in history one who so ruthlessly executed the designs of his own tyrannical and cruel heart, even upon those of his own flesh and blood, as Herod the king. His murder of his best loved wife, the beautiful Mariamne, who was a princess of the Asmonean family, is, in its special circumstances, without parallel in history. He put to death also three of his own sons (two of them by this favourite wife) because he suspected them of aspiring to his throne; and similar deeds of wilfulness characterized his entire reign. Josephus gives many instances of this (see for example Ant. XII 9, 4).

EXALTING AND MAGNIFYING HIMSELF

Further it is said of this king that "he shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods." These words are descriptive of Herod. The words "above every god" may be taken to mean every ruler and authority in Israel, just as "God of gods" means the Supreme Authority above all authorities. Herod did successfully aspire to the lordship over every authority in the land, whether priests or rulers. He assumed to appoint whom he would to the office of high priest. He put his own brother-in-law, Aristobulus, Mariamne’s brother, in that office, and shortly after had him murdered (Ant. XV 3, 5).

Herod also uttered great things against the God of gods. This, we believe, refers specially (though not exclusively) to his decree for the slaughter of the babes of Bethlehem, the express purpose of which was to get rid of Immanuel, God come in the flesh to be the Ruler of His people, and to be "Prince of the kings of the earth" (Re 1:5). Herod’s way of making himself secure upon the throne was to put to death every suspected rival. For Herod, in common with the Jewish teachers in his day (and with some teachers in our own day who ought to know better) mistakenly supposed that the Christ of God was coming at that time to occupy the earthly throne upon which Herod was then seated. We shall have occasion to refer again to this prominent act in the career of Herod.

37. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Because of the reference to the gods (or God,) of his fathers, some have concluded that this ruler will be a Jew, since the Old Testament frequently uses the phrase “the God of your fathers” to refer to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (e.g., Ex. 3:15). Herod the Great was born about the year 73 B.C. (ruled from 37 - 4 B.C.) and was a son of the Antipater from Edom. Thus he was not a full blooded Jew but met the requirement of this verse.

The first clause manifestly could not apply to any heathen king like Antiochus. For whether or not a heathen king should change his national gods is a matter of no importance whatever. But with a king of Israel it is a matter of supreme importance. Now Herod, though supposedly of Idumean (i.e. Edomite) origin, was virtually a Jew; for all the remaining Idumeans, who had come into Judea several centuries previous, had been amalgamated with the Jews. In addressing the people Herod habitually used the expression "our fathers" (Ant. Bk. XV Ch. 11, See. 1). So fully was Herod regarded as a Jew, that the Herodians even held him to be the Messiah. Therefore, in introducing the worship of Caesar, Herod conspicuously failed to "regard the God of his fathers." Moreover, in this connection, it should not be forgotten that Esau was Jacob’s twin brother, and hence that the God of the fathers of the Edomites was the same as the God of the fathers of the Jews.

THE DESIRE OF WOMEN

The words, "nor the desire of women," are very significant. There can scarcely be any doubt that they refer to Christ, and that Daniel would so understand them. For, of course, the "women" must be understood to be women of Israel; and the ardent "desire" of every one of them was that she might be the mother of Christ. The same word is found in Hag 2:7: "And the Desire of all nations shall come." Evidently then it is Christ who is referred to as "the desire of women"; and if so, then we have a striking fulfillment of these words in Herod’s attempt to murder the infant Messiah. For the record given in Matthew 2:1-16 makes it quite clear that Herod’s deliberate purpose was to put to death the promised Messiah of Israel. It was for the accomplishment of that purpose that he inquired of the chief priests and scribes as to where Christ should be born. The slaughter of the babes of Bethlehem was an act of atrocity almost without parallel in history. It was, moreover, an event that had been foretold by Jeremiah in the words, "A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children," etc. (Jer 31:15, quoted in Mt 2:17,18). Each one of those murdered infants was "the desire" of his own mother; and thus Herod fulfilled Da 11:37 in another sense.

Continued

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

It is pure imagination that Daniel 11:36 speaks of "Herod the Great." Every statement of Daniel 11:1-35a was literally fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail, without a single exception.

But from the the words "even to the time of the end" at the end of verse 35, the "fulfillments" claimed by Preterists and Historicists after this time are of an entirely different character. In EACH case, the alleged "fulfillment" was nothing but an event of history that had a slight resemblance to a very small part of what the prophecy said.

A prophecy has not been fulfilled until every detail of what it says has been fulfilled. And this is why, with the sole exception of Clement of Alexandria, the Christians who wrote on these things within the time when they would have know the actual details of what transpired, ALL concluded that the end time prophecies of Daniel remained to be fulfilled in the future. Why did they conclude this? because they KNEW that the events that had just recently taken place did not even resemble what had peen prophesied in the book of Daniel.

38. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

THE GOD OF FORCES

Verse 38 "And in his estate," or for his establishment, "shall he honour the god of forces," or god of fortresses (ASV); "and (or even) a god whom his fathers knew not shall be honour, with gold and silver, and precious (or costly) stones, and with pleasant (or valuable) things."

Herod’s career affords a most striking fulfillment of this verse. The expression, "god of forces, or fortresses," is so unusual that it furnishes a most satisfactory means of identification; for it applies to the Caesars as to none others in history, seeing that the Roman emperors claimed for themselves divine honours, and that it was by "forces," or "fortifications," that they extended and maintained their power, and enforced the worship they demanded. This honour Herod paid to them, and after the most extravagant fashion; and he did it, of course, in order to make himself secure, that is to say, "for his own establishment," as the text of v. 38 may be rendered. This honour paid by Herod, first to Julius Caesar, then to Antony, and then to Antony’s conqueror, Augustus, was one of the most conspicuous features of Herod’s policy. Josephus records how he sent delegations to Rome, and also to Antony and Cleopatra in Egypt, bearing the most costly presents; also how he converted the ancient Strato’s Tower into a magnificent seaport, and named it Caesarea, in honour of Caesar, and how later he rebuilt Samaria, and renamed it Sebaste (Sebastos being the equivalent of Augustus). He built many other fortified cities and named them in honour of Caesar.

39. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Here we have a reference to one of the most prominent acts of Herod’s long reign, namely, his rebuilding of the temple, and his making the temple area a stronghold for Caesar. He made the temple the most famous building in the world for its dimensions, its magnificence, and particularly for the size of the stones whereof it was built, to which the disciples specially directed the Lord’s attention (Mark 13:1), and which Josephus says were 25 cubits long, 12 broad, and 8 thick (Ant. XV II, 3). But, in rebuilding it, Herod took care to convert it into a fortress for his own purposes, this being the "most stronghold" of the land. As a part of this plan he constructed on the north side of the temple, and overlooking it, a strong citadel which he named the Tower of Antonia, after Mark Antony. Josephus says:

“But for the Tower itself, when Herod the king of the Jews had fortified it more firmly than before, in order to secure and guard the temple, he gratified Antonius who was his friend and the Roman ruler by calling it the Tower of Antonia”(Ant. XV. 11:4-7).

Further this historian says that the fortified places

“were two, the one belonging to the city itself, the other belonging to the temple; and those that could get them into their hands had the whole nation under their power, for without the command of them it was not possible to offer their sacrifices”(Ant. XV. 11:7-8).

It was from the stairs leading to this famous Tower, up which the apostle Paul was being taken by the soldiers to save him from the violence of the people, that he stilled them by a gesture of his hand, and gained their attention by addressing them in the Hebrew tongue (Ac 21:34-40).



Again Josephus says of Herod that,

“When Caesar had further bestowed upon him another additional country, he built there also a temple of white marble, hard by the fountains of Jordan;” and also “to say all at once, there was not any place in his kingdom fit for the purpose, that was permitted to be without somewhat that was for Caesar’s honour; and when he had filled his own country with temples, he poured out like plentiful marks of his esteem into his province, and built many cities which he called Caesareas” (Wars I, 21:2).

In connection with the prediction of what this king would do in the chief strongholds—"with a strange god," mention should be made of the many images, statues of Caesar, which Herod set up to be worshipped in various fortified places. He even went so far in his sacrilege as to place a huge golden eagle (the adored emblem of imperial Rome) at the very gate of the temple, thus giving rise to a tumult and insurrection among the people. In this way did he, in his estate (office), "honour the god of forces" (Caesar) whose statues he everywhere introduced as objects of worship. He fulfilled with literal exactness the words, "Thus shall he do in the most strongholds," (which expression would apply to the citadel of the temple, where he erected the Tower of Antonia) "with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge, and increase with glory". The last clause finds a striking fulfillment in Herod’s extravagant pains to glorify Caesar, which, as we have shown, went beyond all bounds.

The words "dividing the land for gain" (or parcelling it out for hire) were fulfilled in the practice adopted by Herod of parcelling out among persons favourable to himself, the land adjacent to places which it was important for him to control in case of emergency. Josephus speaks of this (Ant. XV 8, 5).

We thus find that every item foretold of "the king" was completely fulfilled in the career of Herod, and that the record of this fulfillment has come down to us in an authentic contemporary history, which is on all hands acknowledged to be trustworthy in an unusually high degree.

By: Dale DePriest: who is quoting other authors.

 

[Biblewriter]

Yes, with a little imagination, you can apply Daniel 11:36-39 to Herod the Great. But there is zero way to even pretend that this historical figure, or any other, fululfilled Daniel 11:40-45.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Yes, with a little imagination, you can apply Daniel 11:36-39 to Herod the Great. But there is zero way to even pretend that this historical figure, or any other, fululfilled Daniel 11:40-45.

Daniel 11:40-45 is a prophecy of Rome conquering the last section of the Greek empire. The Egyptian one.
Fulfilled exactly as prophesied.
Here is my web page on that part.
Daniel 11:36 and Herod the King
Within a century of the death of Antiochus Epiphanes the sector of the Greek empire in Daniel 11 called the kingdom of the north was also conquered by Rome (64 B.C.) making the king of the north Roman. The only part of the Greek empire left not conquered by Rome at this time was Egypt, the king of the south. Then in the exact spirit and accuracy as the first 35 verses of Daniel 11. Verses 40-45 prophesy the last part of the Greek empire being conquered by Rome. It even prophesies the boundaries of the Roman empire in the region at this time period of the end, (verse 40.)
There is no difference between the first 35 verses and the last 15 verses as far as accuracy and the relevancy it has to the big picture prophecy of the four successive gentile empires that rule over Gods people. Verses 36 -39 in that same spirit of divine accuracy and relevancy, especially to Daniels people take some time to predict a "King" of the time period when the last of the Greek empire is annexed by Rome. He is neither king of the north or south but was made King by Rome in Judea. Amazingly he is king of Judea when the Messiah comes and his dynasty continued until the the prophesied end.
Serious secular history does not deny that this part of Daniel is prophecy. For Herod the Great and his dynasty to not be examined as the obvious candidate for this portion of the prophecy goes without saying. Herod fulfilled verses 36-39 so precisely that to look into him would be wholly against the interests of those who seek to deny the supernatural nature of Bible prophecy. Unfortunately it seems that instead of solid Christian scholarship influencing secular history the opposite appears to be true. It looks as if Christian scholarship has fallen victim to that influence of those who want to hide the obvious fulfillment of prophecy because it is against their interests.
36. And the king (Herod) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38. But in his estate shall he honor the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. Historical account of Herod and how he fulfilled these prophecies.
40. And at the time of the end ( The end in as foretold Daniel 8:17-19 and 9:26-27) shall the king of the south (Cleopatra, her siblings allied with Mark Antony) push at him (Rome (Cleopatra was also pushing at Herod): and the king of the north (Octavian soon to be named Augustus) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42. He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. Thus we have the final part of the 3rd empire (Greece,) of end time prophecy completely conquered by the fourth empire (Roman) of that same prophecy. Historical account.
44. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. These were wars that happened between Rome and neighboring kingdoms immediately after the last part of the Greek empire was conquered. However because verse 45 seems to refer to Herod (The Great) once more some like to tie verse 44 into him as in this historical account. It fits both scenario's within the time frame given by scripture perfectly so it doesn't seem to matter which is chosen.
45. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel Chapter 12
Daniel Chapter 12 is a progressive enlargement of the original prophecy given to Daniel in chapter 2 as is all Bible prophecy future of that prophecy. In other words God is revealing greater detail about that prophecy as time goes on. Specifically, the angel starts the book of Daniels last prophecy in chapter 10:14 with these words: I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come (NIV) The angel then reveals details about four kings of the Medo-Perisan Empire. He then goes into great detail concerning the Greek empire and it's end via the forth empire Rome. He pinpoints the start of a final period of wrath foretold in Daniel 8:8-27 . Its cause is revealed as the wars between two parts of the Geek Empire that Judea is stuck right in the middle of. The end of chapter 11 leaves us with Herodian dynasty set up and Augustus Caesar as first emperor of the fourth empire. Having eliminated the last of the Greek empire, Rome begins it's official reign as the fourth empire of Daniels prophecies.
Daniel chapter 12 takes up the prophecy from that point. It expands the words of Daniel 9:24-27 about the messiah coming to Israel, completing his work, then the city and the sanctuary being destroyed by war. Daniel chapter 12 is also the point in time where the Gospels of the New Testament begin their narration: Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea........2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that the whole empire should be taxed.

Daniel 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Jesus quotes this verse in his prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem in: Matthew 24:21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mark 13:19. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created to this time, neither shall be. Then Luke's corresponding verse: 21:22. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Jesus also in the same prophecy promises deliverance to believers from this war that destroys the city and sanctuary just like Daniel 12:1:.....and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book: Matthew 24:13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:.....but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Then Luke's corresponding verse: 21:18. But there shall not a hair of your head perish. 19. In your patience possess your souls. It is a historical fact that although Christian's were persecuted and murdered for their service in the Gospel. None of them perished in the destruction of Jerusalem. They heeded the words of Christ and when the army that surrounded Jerusalem left it's siege, they fled to places prepared for them.
Contrary to popular teaching, speaking to them clearly in the second person, Jesus also placed a date on this prophecy : Matthew 24: 34. In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Mark 13:30. In truth I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Luke 21:In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. There is special emphasis place on these verses that do not appear anywhere else in the Messiahs prophecy. "In truth I say to you" and "heaven and earth will pass away before my words fail to come true." (paraphrased.) This emphasis is there because of mankind's natural disposition to not listen carefully. Not only did that generation need warned and instructed about what to do to escape perishing in the war that would destroy the city and the sanctuary. They also needed to know with certainty that it would be coming while they were still alive. Future generations as well needed instructed concerning the timing of this prophecy. The highly illustrative wording Jesus uses in a few verses of his prophecy tend to lead the uninformed to view it as speaking to their future. This however is not the only time Jesus placed the date concerning the end coming to pass in the generation he was speaking to. Those verses will be covered in the next section. Matthew 24:1-2 put's it like this though: 1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: Then his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said to them, Do you see all these things? Truly I say to you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age? In short. Not only does Daniel 9:24-27 give a precise date of the coming of the messiah and the end in what to us is the first century A.D. In his very next vision of Daniel 10-12 God lays out the scenario with much greater detail that leads all the way up to the first century then to the end one more time. Jesus then verifies the same dates Daniel's prophecies predict by quoting chapter 12:1 in his own prophecies about the end of that age. He has come. He has come as all the scriptures predicted and at the time Daniel predicted. Now the end of that age, the first covenant age, will come to pass with a war that will destroy Judea.
Continued.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Yes, with a little imagination, you can apply Daniel 11:36-39 to Herod the Great. But there is zero way to even pretend that this historical figure, or any other, fululfilled Daniel 11:40-45.

2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The New Testament is full of resurrection. In fact it is just exactly as this verse states, and in the first century as this verse stated. Matthew 27: 51. And, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks broke; 52. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53.And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many. Notice that Matthew 27:52. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose is almost verbatim of the first half of Daniel 12:2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake... So much so that one might believe it is a direct quote. Is this an attempt on the authors part to say "the" resurrection has occurred already? Absolutely not. It's simply to point out the accuracy of this prophecy. That the New Testament records events that fulfill this prophecy within the dates prescribed in the first century. The New Testament has allot more to say about resurrection that does not necessarily include the raising of dead bodies to life though. This article on "Resurrection" was written to accompany the End Times Prophecy article. It covers all the scripture on resurrection in the New Testament in a Bible basics sort of fashion.

3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the sky; and they that turn to righteousness as many as the stars for ever and ever.
This is a direct prophecy of the ministry of Christ and his disciples to Israel and the nations that came to pass ( or started to come to pass) in the first century. It is not an accident that it uses the illustrative language of the promise to Abraham in Genesis 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and count the stars, if you are able." Then he said to him, "So shall your descendants be." .......22:17 That in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven. Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations through faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, In you shall all nations be blessed......16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. The Scripture does not say "and to descendants," meaning many people, but "and to your descendant," meaning one person, Christ.....28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus, (NIV.) 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, and heirs according to the promise.

4. But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end: many shall roam about, and knowledge shall be increased.

The words "roam about" imply travel. This is what the disciples of Christ did in the New Testament. Where ever they went, knowledge increased. Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word. 2 Corinthians 2:14 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumph, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere, (RSV.)...... 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

5. Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.6. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by him that lives for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when they finish breaking the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

These three verses are very interesting. The discourse to Daniel seems to have come to a close. Then two other angels appear and seem to intervene by asking a further question. Perhaps to help but it seems to have broadened the subject matter beyond the first century. "How long to the end of these wonders?" What wonders? By the answer it seems all the visions Daniel has seen rather than just Daniel 10-12 that lead up to and tell the end of the first covenant age. The reason for this is because the time period ascribed to the the Roman Empire's horn that appears after the ten horns of Daniel 7 is referenced. "A time, times, and an half." It would seem by the way the grammar is being used in the King James and other older translations rather than the newer interpretative Bibles that there are two different ends being spoken of here. The "time, times. and a half time" would be one end and "the breaking of the power of the holy ones" another end. Could be why the man lifted up "his right and left hand" to heaven rather than "both hands." If this is not the case then this breaking of the power of the holy ones could be in reference to the Roman Empires dominion over the saints via the time period of the little horn. Daniel 7:21. I was looking, and the same horn made war with the saints, and overpowered them;... 23. So he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and crush it. 24. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be different from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. However mystifying visions are even when interpreted, this expansion of the subject matter seems to throw Daniel into even greater confusion in the next verse.


8. And I heard, but I understood not: then I said , O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9. And he said, Go your way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.10. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


The angel dressed in linen does not clear up Daniel's bewilderment and declares the meaning sealed up until the end. He does however tell him what will begin to come to pass with the preaching of the Gospel. In other words the good news in all of this. That even though this final period of wrath ending with the end of the first covenant age is so horrible. Many will be purified and made "white." Their faith will be tried through the fires of persecution brought upon them by the wicked. He then continues beyond the ministry of Christ and his disciples to a specific prophecy about the war in Judea.


11. And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12. Blessed is he that waits, and cometh to the thousand three-hundred and thirty-five days.
Here we run into a problem, at least for this author. Not with the prophecy, but with mankind's incomplete knowledge of history. Many major players and events are foretold in chapters 11-12 but not all of them. The dates in-between the events deal in decades and centuries, not days. Yet here we have a prophecy about days which can be close to impossible determine through the lens of ancient history. This is why it so important to not have "itchy ears," needing to know now and looking at mere human education as your source to provide all info when you want it and how you want it. The temptation to have an answer now has lead many a disciple astray. Some may know exactly what this is referring to. However for the purposes of this article, this can be fit into it's context of the big picture laid out beforehand and the chronological nature of Daniel 11-12. We just went through the whole Greek Empire period as it relates to Israel. It then directed us to Herod, Caesar Augustus and the conquering of the last part of that Greek empire. Leading us into the first century it then takes us right through the New Testament to the end that has been prophesied and then gives us an event that starts a time period measured in days.
It just so happens that the thing that starts the time period is recorded. The beginning of the war as testified to by an eyewitness Josephus: When the nation of Israel stopped the twice daily sacrifice for Caesar. See Historical Account. The problem is the exact date of this event is vague. One could search and search and the only consensus is within a six month period of the summer of 66AD. When you are dealing with a prophecy that uses days as a measurement, opinions when something happened that range within a six month period makes it quite difficult to understand that prophecy. Because of this it is even more imperative to look at what the verse in question. Especially what this verse does not say. Specifically, it does not say the end or the desolation occurs at the end of this 1290 day period. It says the abomination that desolates is set up at that time. That is; the abomination that brings the desolation is set up. The only thing the author might guess, at this point is that it was around that period of days that Vespasian took the emperorship of Rome and commissioned Titus his son to conquer the rest of Judea.
Nero through whom the war started sent the twelfth legion under Cestius that easily conquered Judea. However during the siege of Jerusalem without reason that anyone to this day understands. He left the siege and withdrew from Judea loosing all of his equipment. The false prophets words of miraculous deliverance came to pass. The believers fled Jerusalem according to the words of Jesus at this time. Nero then sends Vespasian to finish the war. In the meantime the Israelites prepare and fortify for the war. During the time that Vespasian is conquering Judea Nero dies and civil war breaks out in the empire between rival would be emperors. After a year of this the legions under Vespasian declare him emperor and he goes to Rome to take the Empire. This is the point at which my guess is the 1290 days are fulfilled. There is also a little breathing period during this time where once more a chance for escape without having to surrender to a Roman Army . That may be the 1335 day period, or one month and a half past the 1290 day period. In other words the abomination that sets up the desolation is the new emperorship of Vespasian and his son Titus's campaign in Judea.
13. But go your way till the end: for you shall rest, and stand in your lot at the end of the days.

 

[Biblewriter]

It has been a long time since I have seen scripture so completely wrested.

 

[parousia70]

The book of Revelation was written by St. John between AD 66-68, in the final years of the Neronic persecution. The internal evidence of the book strongly supports the early date, and the external evidence for this date is firmly attested to by the vast majority of well-known scholars and early Church writings.