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When was the Book of Revelation written?

When was the Book of Revelation written?

  • Post 70 AD

    Votes: 27 62.8%
  • Pre 70 AD

    Votes: 16 37.2%

  • Total voters
    43

Biblewriter

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And this is the end of my argument with you. You very clearly cannot be objective.

And I will say the same thing about you. You simply cannot see that, without a single exception, all your "internal evidence" arguments are based, in their entirety, upon an assumption that you have correctly interpreted the meanings of the texts in question.

And you refuse to admit that it is overwhelming evidence that during the second through the fifth centuries at least seven Christian writers clearly stated facts that date the Revelation to within the reign of Domitian, including details that demonstrate at least four independent original sources of information. Two early writers said things that could be interpreted to mean it was written earlier, but that is not a necessary conclusion from any statement made by either of them. And there are only two clearly stated comments about an earlier date. One of these was made by a writer noted for historical errors. And the other comes from an eighth or seventh century copy made by an ignorant and careless scribe “given to arbitrary alteration of the text before him.” So all solid and reliable evidence points to the Revelation having been given in the later years of Domitian.
 
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AFrazier

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And I will say the same thing about you. You simply cannot see that, without a single exception, all your "internal evidence" arguments are based, in their entirety, upon an assumption that you have correctly interpreted the meanings of the texts in question.

And you refuse to admit that it is overwhelming evidence that during the second through the fifth centuries at least seven Christian writers clearly stated facts that date the Revelation to within the reign of Domitian, including details that demonstrate at least four independent original sources of information. Two early writers said things that could be interpreted to mean it was written earlier, but that is not a necessary conclusion from any statement made by either of them. And there are only two clearly stated comments about an earlier date. One of these was made by a writer noted for historical errors. And the other comes from an eighth or seventh century copy made by an ignorant and careless scribe “given to arbitrary alteration of the text before him.” So all solid and reliable evidence points to the Revelation having been given in the later years of Domitian.
Have a nice day bro. I told you I'm done. I didn't read this post. You are wasting your effort at this point.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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A good point about John being too old, but where does it say that John would go to those cities?
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings

Rev 10:11

I understand he lived for a time in Ephesus with Mary, the mother of Jesus, caring for her. When we was in his 90s he was too old to do much and had to be carried around, being too weak.
 
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David Kent

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THE DATE of THE APOCALYPSE. Part 1 From Horae Apocalyptica by E B Elliott. 3rd edition 1847 Vol 1;



CHAP. II.--THE DATE of THE APOCALYPSE. This is my second preliminary point of inquiry, and one on which also the historical evidence will be found both direct and conclusive. For the testimony of Irenatus,was himself the disciple of the apostle John,-is as ex press to the point in question as it is unexceptionable. Speaking of the name and number of the Beast in the Apocalypse, he says, that had this been a matter then to be made known, it would have been disclosed by him who saw the Apocalypse: “For it’’ (the Apocalypse evidently) “was seen no very long time ago; but almost in our age, towards the end of the reign of Domitian."' The attempts that have been made to get rid of this tes timony, and force another meaning on Irenaeus' words, by those whose views and theories made them wish to do so, “have utterly failed.” It is as clear a testimony on the point it relates to, as there can be found to any other fact in any other historian.



Nor is it unsupported by other testimony. First, (not to insist on Tertullian,”) Clement of Alexandria indirectly, but clearly confirms the statement. Relating the well-known story of St. John and the robber, he speaks of it as enacted by the apostle on his return from exile in Patmos, “after the death of the tyrant; ”* and represents him as then an infirm old man.” Now “the tyrant,” whose death is referred to, must necessarily be either Nero or Domitian; as these were, up to the end of the first century, the only imperial persecutors of the Chris tian body. And Nero it can scarcely be: since at the time of Nero's persecution, St. John was by no means an infirm old man; being probably not much above, if indeed so much as, sixty years of age.” Thus it must rather have been, so as Eusebius explains Clement, the tyrant" Domitianan.1—Secondly, Victorinus (Bishop of Pettaw, and mar tyr in Diocletian's persecution) in his Commentary on the Apocalypse, written towards the close of the third century, says twice over expressly, and in a part that bears no mark of interpolation, that the Apocalypse was seen by the Apostle John in the isle of Patmos, when banished thither by the Roman Emperor Domitian."—To the same effect, thirdly, is the testimony of an Apocryphal author who wrote a history of St. John under the name of Prochorus, one of the seven primary deacons mentioned in the Acts; * a work, I conceive, of the third century, and the same perhaps as one noted among the spurious by Athanasius *—Again, Eusebius' testimony may be cited ‘on the date of the Apocalyptic revelation, (though he doubted about its author,) as expressing his deliberate adoption of the statement of Irenaeus."—The same is the recorded judgment of Jerome;” the same of Sulpitius Se verus".--Further, we find a distinct statement of similar purport in Primasius, an eminent Augustinian commen1tator on the Apocalypse, of the sixth century. In his Preface to this Commentarry, he speaks of the Apocalyptic visions having been seen by St. John when banished and condemned to the mines in Patmos by the Emperor Domitian.*—And more might yet be added.”



Such is the later and subsidiary Patristic testimony still extant, to the fact of St. John having seen the Apocalyptic visions in Patmos under the reign of Domitian: —a chain of testimony not to be viewed (so as Tilloch would quite unwarrantably represent it)' as but the repetition of that of Irenaeus, whom indeed for the most part these writers do not even refer to ; * but as their own deliberate independent judgment, formed on all the evidence that then existed. As to any contrary early tradition respecting the date, if such there was, (as Sir I. Newton and Tilloch, still without any warrant of historic record, have assumed,”) it can scarcely have been unknown to them. And their total silence respecting it is only explicable on one of two suppositions; viz. either that it did not exist, or that they deemed it undeserving of credit, and not even worth the notice. Nor can this be wondered at: seeing that as to any contrary statement on the point in question, there ap pears to have been none whatsoever until the time of Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis in Cyprus, in the latter half of the fourth century: a writer whose work is de cried by Mosheim as “full of blots and errors, through the levity and ignorance of the author: ”* and who in his statement on this very point, supposing it correctly written, and not an error of transcription in our copies, —so exemplifies this ignorance, as well to justify its silent neglect by those writers of our catena, viz. Jerom, Sulpitius, and Primasius, who lived after him. For he speaks of St. John having prophesied when in the isle of Patmos, in the days of the Emperor Claudius : — a time when, as Michaelis justly observes,” it does not appear from history that there was any imperial perse cution of the Christian body whatsoever ; and when moreover the probability is that of the seven Apocalyptic churches scarce one was as yet in existence,” and the Apostle John moreover in no way associated with the district." But indeed one is almost forced to suspect some strange error in the transcriber. For Epiphanius elsewhere implies John's age to have been ninety at the time of his return from Patmos.” And can we suppose that he really thought John to have been ninety years old before A.D. 54, which was the latest year of the life of Claudius, or about seventy when called by Christ to be his disciple 2"—Besides whose strange theory we are reminded by Newton and Tilloch of yet another testimony to the early date of the Apocalypse. The subscription to a Syriac version of the book, written about the beginning of the sixth century," is thus worded; “The Revelation which was made by God to John the Evangelist in the island of Patmos, whither he was banished by the Emperor Nero.” But of what value is this opi nion, then first broached, as it would appear 2 *—Or again, of what that of the commentator Arethas, pro mulgated still two or three centuries later,” to the effect that the Apocalypse was written before the destruction of Jerusalem ; * an opinion contradicted indeed else where in the body of his work by himself?"—Alike the one and the other slept unnoticed for centuries. And if waked up by critics of a more modern age, it has only been (as Michaelis, we have seen, confesses) from the supposed necessity of such dates, in order to any possi ble explanation of the Apocalyptic prophecies." It does not need that I discuss at all prominently certain points of indirect and subsidiary historical evidence, in favour of an early date, which these writers have also called in to their aid. A sufficient notice of them will be found below: and it will appear that they all, like the direct testimony just discussed, prove weak and worthless on examination.”—Nor will the only other evidence offered on their side,-evidence internal in its character, and which has been urged of late years with great earnestness and some effect" by Dr. Tilloch and others, after Sir Isaac and Bishop Newton,-be found at all better able to bear examination. For what is the main argument? It is founded on certain marked similarities discoverable, as they suppose, in sundry Epistles of Peter and Paul, written before Nero's death, to passages in the Apocalypse; whence they infer that the Apocalypse was written first, the Epistles after wards.' Now in a question of this kind it is important to distinguish between cases of reference to some ante cedent writing,-whether direct, or by means of the article or pronouns demonstrative, and those of mere similarity of thought or expression. Of the former class of examples, adduced by these critics from the apostolic epistles, there is not one, I believe, which is not explicable as a reference to the previous prophecies of the Old Testament.” As to cases of mere similarity and coincidence of thought, if we may often see much of it even in uninspired writings, without implying imitation on the part of one or other of the writers, how much more may we expect undesigned resemblances in inspired writings, such as are both the Epistles and Book of the Apocalypse spoken of ; seeing that, though written by different human penmen, they were inspired by one and the same divine Spirit : * which Spirit may just as well be supposed to have dictated an idea or brief sketch to St. Peter or St. Paul, which was afterwards to be developed in the finished pictures of the Apocalypse of St. John, as to have spoken by those first-mentioned Apostles in terms or figures borrowed from the previously promulgated pictures of the Apocalypse.

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David Kent

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THE DATE of THE APOCALYPSE. Part 1 From Horae Apocalyptica by E B Elliott. 3rd edition 1847 Vol 1;



CHAP. II.--THE DATE of THE APOCALYPSE. This is my second preliminary point of inquiry, and one on which also the historical evidence will be found both direct and conclusive. For the testimony of Irenatus,was himself the disciple of the apostle John,-is as ex press to the point in question as it is unexceptionable. Speaking of the name and number of the Beast in the Apocalypse, he says, that had this been a matter then to be made known, it would have been disclosed by him who saw the Apocalypse: “For it’’ (the Apocalypse evidently) “was seen no very long time ago; but almost in our age, towards the end of the reign of Domitian."' The attempts that have been made to get rid of this tes timony, and force another meaning on Irenaeus' words, by those whose views and theories made them wish to do so, “have utterly failed.” It is as clear a testimony on the point it relates to, as there can be found to any other fact in any other historian.



Nor is it unsupported by other testimony. First, (not to insist on Tertullian,”) Clement of Alexandria indirectly, but clearly confirms the statement. Relating the well-known story of St. John and the robber, he speaks of it as enacted by the apostle on his return from exile in Patmos, “after the death of the tyrant; ”* and represents him as then an infirm old man.” Now “the tyrant,” whose death is referred to, must necessarily be either Nero or Domitian; as these were, up to the end of the first century, the only imperial persecutors of the Chris tian body. And Nero it can scarcely be: since at the time of Nero's persecution, St. John was by no means an infirm old man; being probably not much above, if indeed so much as, sixty years of age.” Thus it must rather have been, so as Eusebius explains Clement, the tyrant" Domitianan.1—Secondly, Victorinus (Bishop of Pettaw, and mar tyr in Diocletian's persecution) in his Commentary on the Apocalypse, written towards the close of the third century, says twice over expressly, and in a part that bears no mark of interpolation, that the Apocalypse was seen by the Apostle John in the isle of Patmos, when banished thither by the Roman Emperor Domitian."—To the same effect, thirdly, is the testimony of an Apocryphal author who wrote a history of St. John under the name of Prochorus, one of the seven primary deacons mentioned in the Acts; * a work, I conceive, of the third century, and the same perhaps as one noted among the spurious by Athanasius *—Again, Eusebius' testimony may be cited ‘on the date of the Apocalyptic revelation, (though he doubted about its author,) as expressing his deliberate adoption of the statement of Irenaeus."—The same is the recorded judgment of Jerome;” the same of Sulpitius Se verus".--Further, we find a distinct statement of similar purport in Primasius, an eminent Augustinian commen1tator on the Apocalypse, of the sixth century. In his Preface to this Commentarry, he speaks of the Apocalyptic visions having been seen by St. John when banished and condemned to the mines in Patmos by the Emperor Domitian.*—And more might yet be added.”



Such is the later and subsidiary Patristic testimony still extant, to the fact of St. John having seen the Apocalyptic visions in Patmos under the reign of Domitian: —a chain of testimony not to be viewed (so as Tilloch would quite unwarrantably represent it)' as but the repetition of that of Irenaeus, whom indeed for the most part these writers do not even refer to ; * but as their own deliberate independent judgment, formed on all the evidence that then existed. As to any contrary early tradition respecting the date, if such there was, (as Sir I. Newton and Tilloch, still without any warrant of historic record, have assumed,”) it can scarcely have been unknown to them. And their total silence respecting it is only explicable on one of two suppositions; viz. either that it did not exist, or that they deemed it undeserving of credit, and not even worth the notice. Nor can this be wondered at: seeing that as to any contrary statement on the point in question, there ap pears to have been none whatsoever until the time of Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis in Cyprus, in the latter half of the fourth century: a writer whose work is de cried by Mosheim as “full of blots and errors, through the levity and ignorance of the author: ”* and who in his statement on this very point, supposing it correctly written, and not an error of transcription in our copies, —so exemplifies this ignorance, as well to justify its silent neglect by those writers of our catena, viz. Jerom, Sulpitius, and Primasius, who lived after him. For he speaks of St. John having prophesied when in the isle of Patmos, in the days of the Emperor Claudius : — a time when, as Michaelis justly observes,” it does not appear from history that there was any imperial perse cution of the Christian body whatsoever ; and when moreover the probability is that of the seven Apocalyptic churches scarce one was as yet in existence,” and the Apostle John moreover in no way associated with the district." But indeed one is almost forced to suspect some strange error in the transcriber. For Epiphanius elsewhere implies John's age to have been ninety at the time of his return from Patmos.” And can we suppose that he really thought John to have been ninety years old before A.D. 54, which was the latest year of the life of Claudius, or about seventy when called by Christ to be his disciple 2"—Besides whose strange theory we are reminded by Newton and Tilloch of yet another testimony to the early date of the Apocalypse. The subscription to a Syriac version of the book, written about the beginning of the sixth century," is thus worded; “The Revelation which was made by God to John the Evangelist in the island of Patmos, whither he was banished by the Emperor Nero.” But of what value is this opi nion, then first broached, as it would appear 2 *—Or again, of what that of the commentator Arethas, pro mulgated still two or three centuries later,” to the effect that the Apocalypse was written before the destruction of Jerusalem ; * an opinion contradicted indeed else where in the body of his work by himself?"—Alike the one and the other slept unnoticed for centuries. And if waked up by critics of a more modern age, it has only been (as Michaelis, we have seen, confesses) from the supposed necessity of such dates, in order to any possi ble explanation of the Apocalyptic prophecies." It does not need that I discuss at all prominently certain points of indirect and subsidiary historical evidence, in favour of an early date, which these writers have also called in to their aid. A sufficient notice of them will be found below: and it will appear that they all, like the direct testimony just discussed, prove weak and worthless on examination.”—Nor will the only other evidence offered on their side,-evidence internal in its character, and which has been urged of late years with great earnestness and some effect" by Dr. Tilloch and others, after Sir Isaac and Bishop Newton,-be found at all better able to bear examination. For what is the main argument? It is founded on certain marked similarities discoverable, as they suppose, in sundry Epistles of Peter and Paul, written before Nero's death, to passages in the Apocalypse; whence they infer that the Apocalypse was written first, the Epistles after wards.' Now in a question of this kind it is important to distinguish between cases of reference to some ante cedent writing,-whether direct, or by means of the article or pronouns demonstrative, and those of mere similarity of thought or expression. Of the former class of examples, adduced by these critics from the apostolic epistles, there is not one, I believe, which is not explicable as a reference to the previous prophecies of the Old Testament.” As to cases of mere similarity and coincidence of thought, if we may often see much of it even in uninspired writings, without implying imitation on the part of one or other of the writers, how much more may we expect undesigned resemblances in inspired writings, such as are both the Epistles and Book of the Apocalypse spoken of ; seeing that, though written by different human penmen, they were inspired by one and the same divine Spirit : * which Spirit may just as well be supposed to have dictated an idea or brief sketch to St. Peter or St. Paul, which was afterwards to be developed in the finished pictures of the Apocalypse of St. John, as to have spoken by those first-mentioned Apostles in terms or figures borrowed from the previously promulgated pictures of the Apocalypse.

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David Kent

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CHAP. II.--THE DATE of THE APOCALYPSE. Part 2.

All this is very evident; and with it the exceeding danger of arguing, so as Newton and Tilloch have done, for the chronological priority of the Apocalypse, from any supposed imitations of it which they may think to trace in one and another of the apostolic epistles. But it is to Dr. Tilloch himself that we owe the setting forth of the utter unsoundness and error of this their argument in the clearest light. For he has plainly shown that on this principle there must be allowed proof of reference to the Apocalypse in St. Paul's two Epistles to the Thessalonians,—proof as conclusive as in any other case: ' —the which Epistles were, however, notoriously written" (and indeed other of the Epistles also ") before ever a Christian church was founded at Ephesus: much more evidence offered on their side,-evidence internal in its character, and which has been urged of late years with great earnestness and some effect" by Dr. Tilloch and others, after Sir Isaac and Bishop Newton,-be found at all better able to bear examination. For what is the main argument? It is founded on certain marked similarities discoverable, as they suppose, in sundry Epistles of Peter and Paul, written before Nero's death, to passages in the Apocalypse; whence they infer that the Apocalypse was written first, the Epistles after wards.' Now in a question of this kind it is important to distinguish between cases of reference to some ante cedent writing,-whether direct, or by means of the article or pronouns demonstrative, and those of mere similarity of thought or expression. Of the former class of examples, adduced by these critics from the apostolic epistles, there is not one, I believe, which is not explicable as a reference to the previous prophecies of the Old Testament.” As to cases of mere similarity and coincidence of thought, if we may often see much of it even in uninspired writings, without implying imitation on the part of one or other of the writers, how much more may we expect undesigned resemblances in in spired writings, such as are both the Epistles and Book of the Apocalypse spoken of ; seeing that, though written by different human penmen, they were inspired by one and the same divine Spirit : * which Spirit may just as well be supposed to have dictated an idea or brief sketch to St. Peter or St. Paul, which was afterwards to be developed in the finished pictures of the Apocalypse of St. John, as to have spoken by those first-mentioned Apostles in terms or figures borrowed from the previously promulged pictures of the Apocalypse. All this is very evident; and with it the exceeding danger of arguing, so as Newton and Tilloch have done, for the chronological priority of the Apocalypse, from any supposed imitations of it which they may think to trace in one and another of the apostolic epistles. But it is to Dr. Tilloch himself that we owe the setting forth of the utter unsoundness and error of this their argument in the clearest light. For he has plainly shown that on this principle there must be allowed proof of reference to the Apocalypse in St. Paul's two Epistles to the Thes salonians,—proof as conclusive as in any other case: ' —the which Epistles were, however, notoriously written" (and indeed other of the Epistles also ") before ever a Christian church was founded at Ephesus: much more before it had any episcopal angel presiding over it, such as was addressed in the first of the Apocalyptic Epistles by the Lord Jesus.”—Such is their main argument to prove an early date from internal evidence. Of the lesser and subsidiary I add a brief notice below.” One word, ere I conclude, on two or three partially corroborative points of evidence drawn from profane history and historians. First, it would seem from their report very questionable (nor does any authentic eccle siastical history decisively contradict it) whether Nero's persecution of Christians extended far beyond the pre cincts of Rome itself: ' a circumstance which, if true, negatives of itself the proposed theory of St. John having been banished in his persecution to the mines of Patmos. –Secondly, they furnish no evidence that inpersecution banishment to the islands, with its usual penal accompaniments, was one of the punish ments then put in force against accused Christians: whereas, on the other hand, we have direct profane his toric testimony in proof that that particular punishment was enforced against persons accused of Christianity in the persecution by Domitian. The illustrative case of the noble Senator Clemens' noble wife Domitilla will readily occur to the memory of the classic reader.”—To which let me add, thirdly, that it appears from Tacitus.“ that about the sixth year of Nero, or A.D. 61, the city of Laodicea having been destroyed by an earthquake, in which earthquake, according to Eusebius," the adjacent cities of Colossa and Hierapolis were also involved,— Laodicea itself was almost immediately after rebuilt: whereas there is no historic evidence of the restoration for a half century, or more, of the other two of those fallen cities.” I note this in answer to Tilloch's rash argument, that the circumstance of the Church at Colossae not being mentioned in the Apocalyptic Epistles, justifies an inference that the Apocalypse was seen and written before the first founding of the Colossian Church." Thus (to conclude) the varied historical evidence that has been inquired into, all concurs to confirm the date originally and expressly assigned by Irenatus to the Apocalypse, as seen and written at the close of the reign of Domitian: that is, near the end of the year 95, or begin ning of 96.” Accordingly, the most approved modern ecclesiastical historians and biblical critics, writers who have had no bias on the point in question, one way or the other, from any particular cherished theory of Apocalyptic interpretation,-for example alike Dupin, Basnage, Turretin, Spanheim,” Mosheim, Milner, Le Clerc, Mill, Whitby," Lampe, Neander, Lardner,” Tomline, Burton,” &c, &c,+have alike adopted it.” And we may, I am persuaded, depend on its correctness with as unhesitating and implicit confidence, as on the truth of almost any of the lesser facts recorded in history.”—It seems surprising to me that respectable and learned commentators should have wasted their time and labour in building up Apocalyptic Expositions on the sandy foundation of an earlier Neronic date.” It seems stranger still that they should have allowed themselves so to represent the present state of evidence and argument on the point, as if the fact of this earlier date were a thing admitted,” and beyond doubt.”

The important bearing of the true Apocalyptic date on Apocalyptic interpretation will soon appear.

That was part of the introduction, the following chapter is headed,

INTRODUCTION To The PROPHECY OF THE FUTURE; APOC. I–V. CHAPTER I.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I just wanted to mention that Irenaeus wrote that Jesus was 50 when he died. It makes one wonder about his credibility in the other "facts" he reported if this simple fact was not made clear to him. If he supposedly learned from someone who learned from John, how come he did not know the age of Jesus when he died? This is a lot easier to know that fact that was commonly know than when John was banished. As for other "references" to when John was banished, they were quoting Irenaeus as far as I learned so that makes one references who missed the age of Jesus at his death by 20 years.
 
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As somebody has already said, the fact that Irenaeus may have said that Jesus was 50 years old is irrelevant. From when I read Irenaeus many years ago, I think he said Jesus may have been about 40. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John. He was more likely to know than any revisionist today when John was exiled. I don't recall any early writer challenging him in that and I am sure they would as it would have been well known to the church.

Modern preterism is based on the teaching of the Jesuit Alcazar, who wrote to challenge the dissenting church teaching that the Pope is Antchrist. So they have revise the history to make it fit.
 
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David Kent

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I just wanted to mention that Irenaeus wrote that Jesus was 50 when he died. It makes one wonder about his credibility in the other "facts" he reported if this simple fact was not made clear to him. If he supposedly learned from someone who learned from John, how come he did not know the age of Jesus when he died? This is a lot easier to know that fact that was commonly know than when John was banished. As for other "references" to when John was banished, they were quoting Irenaeus as far as I learned so that makes one references who missed the age of Jesus at his death by 20 years.

You must have learned it from a preterist. They would say that wouldn't they?
 
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David Kent

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Julius was a Caesar. That's the part that's relevant. There's a reason all future emperors were called Caesar.

And the eighth was an eighth, not the eighth. The relevance of the eighth is that he would bring destruction, which Vespasian did.

No Julius was Cæsar. The others took the name Cæsar.

Your Math doesn't work.
  1. Julius Cæsar
  2. Antony
  3. Augustus
  4. Tiberius
  5. Caligula
  6. Claudius
  7. Nero
  8. Galba
  9. Otho
  10. Vitellius
  11. Vespasian
Josephus called Titus Cæsar although he was only the prince.
 
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As somebody has already said, the fact that Irenaeus may have said that Jesus was 50 years old is irrelevant. From when I r ead Irenaeus many years ago, I think he said Jesus may have been about 40. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John. He was more likely to know than any revisionist today when John was exiled. I don't recall any early writer challenging him in that and I am sure they would as it would have been well known to the church.

Modern preterism is based on the teaching of the Jesuit Alcazar, who wrote to challenge the dissenting church teaching that the Pope is Antchrist. So they have revise the history to make it fit.
No, he said Jesus was 50. Means he got that basic fact wrong. Means his source of information was not as he claimed. And he was the only one who mentioned in ONE SENTENCE the emporer at the time of the writing of Revelation. Pretty shakey memory and source. Why didn't he write more about it. He was a long time after the event and to base a view on one sentence written by a guy who could not get the age of Jesus at his death is pretty shakey especially when it is in defiance of the text itself. The "proofs" I read for this position are based on one shakey memory sentence in full defiance of the text.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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No Julius was Cæsar. The others took the name Cæsar.

Your Math doesn't work.
  1. Julius Cæsar
  2. Antony
  3. Augustus
  4. Tiberius
  5. Caligula
  6. Claudius
  7. Nero
  8. Galba
  9. Otho
  10. Vitellius
  11. Vespasian
Josephus called Titus Cæsar although he was only the prince.
Julius' last name was Caesar. It came from his family before him. The name then became associated with the position. Hard to believe but true. He was Julius Casear at birth, actually Gaius Julius Caesar.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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As somebody has already said, the fact that Irenaeus may have said that Jesus was 50 years old is irrelevant. From when I read Irenaeus many years ago, I think he said Jesus may have been about 40. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John. He was more likely to know than any revisionist today when John was exiled. I don't recall any early writer challenging him in that and I am sure they would as it would have been well known to the church.

Modern preterism is based on the teaching of the Jesuit Alcazar, who wrote to challenge the dissenting church teaching that the Pope is Antchrist. So they have revise the history to make it fit.
It is only irrelevant for those who want to ignore it. It is, in fact, indicative of the reliability of his information as this bit was so far wrong from the truth as to be asounding. Did the man know nothing about the life of Christ? Or was he merely revising history by saying he died at 50? Who is revising history here?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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You must have learned it from a preterist. They would say that wouldn't they?
I just have to point out that this is now a common response in a discussion in our culture now when the party speaking has no answer or is losing. They simply point to something like who might have said it who is dubious avoiding the obvious problem with whether the matter is true or not. This is picking and choosing which information from the writings of Iraeneus one likes to accept. If he said Revelation was written after the fall of Jerusalem (by naming an emporer) well, then this is truth and we accept it cause he knew someone who knew John. But he if said that Jesus was 50 at his death (relatively old man) well then that was repeated by someone who is dubious ignoring the truth of the statment. See how it works? If someone says something the person likes, then that is truth. If they say something the person does not like, well then a dubious person repeated it (cannot really say that Iraeneus did not write this cause he did so we point the finger at some theological position we all know is dubious instead.)

The man who wants truth is less interested in WHO says it but whether it is true or not. The man who does not want truth will reject truths he has already decided to reject using who said it as the excuse.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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And I will say the same thing about you. You simply cannot see that, without a single exception, all your "internal evidence" arguments are based, in their entirety, upon an assumption that you have correctly interpreted the meanings of the texts in question.
WHen John wrote that those events were soon to take place, it does not require any interpretation of that word "soon." "Soon" does not mean over 2000 years from today. And the word "soon" appears a fair number of times. For those who reject the internal information, the murkiness of "assumed interpretation" is their only refuge.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Hieromartyr Antipas the Bishop of Pergamum and Disciple of St John the Theologian

the sixth head, WHICH IS, refers to Nero the sixth Kaiser of Rome. Who fell from power on June 9th 68 AD.

Church tradition holds at Bishop at the pass was martyred in 68 AD under Nero. and it had already happened in revelation 2:13.

Everything would workout if revelation dates too early 68 AD after the martyrdom of Antipas Bishop of Pergamum and before Nero fell from power.

the persecutions began in 64 after the Great Fire of Rome, so they had to been ongoing for 4 years. The point of Revelation was to reassure Christian faithful that the persecutions would soon and which in fact, they did.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Hieromartyr Antipas the Bishop of Pergamum and Disciple of St John the Theologian

the sixth head, WHICH IS, refers to Nero the sixth Kaiser of Rome. Who fell from power on June 9th 68 AD.

Church tradition holds at Bishop at the pass was martyred in 68 AD under Nero. and it had already happened in revelation 2:13.

Everything would workout if revelation dates too early 68 AD after the martyrdom of Antipas Bishop of Pergamum and before Nero fell from power.

the persecutions began in 64 after the Great Fire of Rome, so they had to been ongoing for 4 years. The point of Revelation was to reassure Christian faithful that the persecutions would soon and which in fact, they did.
When I learned about the book speaking mainly of the fall of Jerusalem and read about that description, it all fell beautifully into place. The predictions of Matthew 24 fell into place. The words of Jesus before the Sanhedren fell into place. Reading about prophesy fullfilled is more thrilling than assuming it is yet to take place. It happened as Jesus said, in the lifetime of those standing there when he died. He happened within one generation. Nero was the beast. I took a tour in Rome once (secular) and they showed us the remains of a statue of Nero or done by Nero which was reported to have been able to speak. The book of Revelation became alive to me and it all make sense.
 
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Erik Nelson

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When I learned about the book speaking mainly of the fall of Jerusalem and read about that description, it all fell beautifully into place. The predictions of Matthew 24 fell into place. The words of Jesus before the Sanhedren fell into place. Reading about prophesy fullfilled is more thrilling than assuming it is yet to take place. It happened as Jesus said, in the lifetime of those standing there when he died. He happened within one generation. Nero was the beast. I took a tour in Rome once (secular) and they showed us the remains of a statue of Nero or done by Nero which was reported to have been able to speak. The book of Revelation became alive to me and it all make sense.
Jesus embodied the new temple with in which the presence of the Lord dwelt. The high priests of the physical temple had tried to tear down his body on the cross. So God supernaturally brought about. a table turning chain of events which left no stone of the physical temple standing up on any other stone.

Nero blamed the Christians for the devastating fire in Rome in 64 AD. the Jewish up rising in the East and the Gaulish uprising in the West in 67 and sixty eight AD distracted The Romans from persecuting Christians and turned their attention towards external military threats. Thus Sparring, the Christians from further persecutions. Perhaps those uprisings were somehow supernaturally motivated?
 
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Biblewriter

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No, he said Jesus was 50. Means he got that basic fact wrong. Means his source of information was not as he claimed. And he was the only one who mentioned in ONE SENTENCE the emporer at the time of the writing of Revelation. Pretty shakey memory and source. Why didn't he write more about it. He was a long time after the event and to base a view on one sentence written by a guy who could not get the age of Jesus at his death is pretty shakey especially when it is in defiance of the text itself. The "proofs" I read for this position are based on one shakey memory sentence in full defiance of the text.

No, they are based on the multiplied statements of many ancient sources, at least four of which contain details which indicate at least four different ultimate (and now lost) sources of information. This is better authentication than most of the events of ancient history. For the majority of the accepted "facts" about ancient history are based upon less than four ancient witnesses.
 
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