When nothing seems enough... do I give up?

[Ange27]

Razzelflabben why would that break a rule?

 

[razzelflabben]

Razzelflabben why would that break a rule?

something about responding to another poster in an advice thread....

 

[BigNorsk]

That is precisely the problem -- I DO believe in his saving power and his extended, bountiful forgiveness (grace). Why is it a problem? Because for all practical intents and purposes, it seems to be ineffectual at producing change in me.

The proof is in the pudding... It's an old adage that means that you'll know whether something is valid or real based on the end result. You can question a cook all you want, but in the end, if it's good food, it's good food. You take a taste and if it tastes great, that's the reality.

Well here I am reading all this stuff in the Bible, reading it more than most of my other Christian friends have done even though they had more than twice the time being a Christian as me. I came to have an understanding of the Bible that helped me to encourage and even instruct, at times, believers of a much longer-held faith.

Now people often respond by saying, "well all this head knowledge isn't where it's at, it's gotta be a reality in your heart." OK, so, I shouldn't study the Bible or read it carefully? I've done a variety of different study methods, including the "devotional" style, where you just sort of read it and let it "soak in," supposedly. I found that method a bit dry, since it lacked the depth of looking deeper into the Word.

So what's this "head knowledge" versus "heart knowledge" issue? Is it about really believing or not? If that's the issue, than yes, I really believed it as much as I knew how and could. I believe that if I didn't "really" believe it before, there is no way for me to ever know whether I can "really" believe it in the future. How "really" is "really?" Like how "really" do I need to get to qualify?

Letting go and letting God some say... as I said before, tried that method, didn't go anywhere for me. And no, I didn't try it for a few days or weeks and then say, "nope, I'm not magically changed, I give up." I gave genuine, heart-felt efforts to doing a variety of different things, including a genuine attempt to just "do nothing" and wait on God.

That's where the problem is... the forgiveness hasn't removed my self-doubt, self-judgment, and guilt. The grace of God hasn't made me feel "free" in any sense. I felt that way for a VERY brief time at first, but it was so fleeting that worldly things have given me a longer-lasting "high."

If God's Word isn't powerful enough to see me through these times, what am I to conclude? That I'm "doing it wrong?" I tried doing and even NOT doing it every way I knew how, and then tried waiting to see if God was breaking me to mold me anew... nothing. God's Word should be ultimately powerful, more so than any self-doubts of mine. If I have to "keep fighting" them like this, than God's Word is doing a worse job than just doing it some worldly way, because I feel better when I'm not constantly reading it.

That's the pudding for me. The proof is there, in the reality that I experience. In the reality of the walk that I tried to walk by faith and not by sight. It seems that walking by faith was more stressful, less enjoyable, more guilt-ridden than walking by sight.

I so sorry you are having such a rough go of it. If you would forgive me, I believe your posts give an indication of why it's happening.

The proof is in the pudding? Proof of what. You and your life are pretty much proof of exactly nothing. It's Jesus and the cross that are the proof.

See it seems to me you have wired into you a theology of glory. To turn to yourself and your works as proof. And everytime you do that, it destroys or threatens to destroy you.

Well why should you be any different. Looking to oneself always disappoints, it's our legacy as children of Adam, it's that original sin thing.

Instead, one must look to Jesus and the cross, it's in the theology of the cross that faith can abide and one can find rest.

Now a lot of groups and people love to hammer you with the theology of glory, it makes people run around like cockroaches in a microwave, they work hard, they give money oh wonders of wonders isn't it wonderful. At least until the pop.

You really remind me of the early Martin Luther, he worked really hard. He was a rising star, he damaged his health with how hard he worked. And the whole time, he was gripped by and driven by terror. He would confess several times a day, often for hours. His confessor more than once asked him to wait until he had some real sins.

This went on and it was going to kill him I am convinced. But then he was in the Tower one day, (A Catholic Historian thought he was using the toilet because he wrote he was down in the crapper, but that's an idiom for depressed, there is no bathroom in the tower) and he had that moment where he realized the Bible said "The just shall live by faith"

That's really the foundation of everything that came after. He abandoned the theology of glory, turned to the theology of the cross and the rest is history.

Now don't take that to mean that he never feared, never doubted, never had any bad times. But things are quite different with a theology of the cross.

Now pretty much that was abandoned right away by other groups. Calvinisms reliance on predestination has a terrible undertow to pull you to the theology of glory. And some of those other groups you mentioned don't have an undertow, they have a waterfall to carry you there.

That would be my assessment. I of course, can't be certain. But in everything you've posted here you seem to be doing okay until you look to yourself, and I don't know where you got that.

Take Paul, didn't he say his members did what he did not want? If he looked what did he have. A wanderer, stoned and left for dead more than once, had to work to eat, looking forward to death on a cross. Boy, there's a life. It proves nothing though, nothings really true because he lived that life. It's only true that he led that life because of Jesus.

If someone has promised you a great life because you believe well, that's not true. God specifically destroys that in Ecc.

Luther kind of summarized this one time, and I don't know if I get it exactly, but it's like we work and work and nothing is done, but if we just believe it's already done.

No simple solutions or anything, I will pray for you, brother. I'm not much of a believer in the easy solution books that are going to just turn you into more theology of glory that seems to help for awhile again. I'd say you might be good to read of Luther's story and his tower experience, and the difference between the theolgy of glory and of the theology of the cross.

I think also of the prophet Elijah when such great things were done through him and yet he got so down he asked God to just let him die. God never did honor that prayer, Elijah never did die.

Marv

 

[kcon]

but it's like we work and work and nothing is done, but if we just believe it's already done.

I really like this. It's helpful. Thank you.

 

[ArcticFox]

Elijah I appreciate your efforts but I have to believe that you are looking for a canned solution to a much deeper issue.
Mate, you only want to believe what you want to believer. There is nothing canned about my solution or anything.

I now throw my 4 x 4 into the bin.

You have some key beliefs that I studied and evaluated and absolutely do not share.
Mate, you can study and evaluate as much as you like, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, you are the problem.

These issues may keep us from having a meaningful discussion.
If you want a meaningful discussion, then approach your life one item at a time, and not a multitude of duck-shoving.

I don't want this to be an argument over doctrine,
You don't argue on doctrine on a Christian Advice forum.

but if you are going to insist that a demonic spirit has possessed me then our conversation will be fruitless.
Who mentioned anything about demonic spirit or possession, but it's obvious you have no knowledge or understanding of the supernatural realm.

Sorry, mate all your study and evaluation is to no avail.

Take care, and may our Lord Jesus Christ give you the answers to your studies and evaluations.

Blessings!

My personal request is that you no longer reply to my messages or send me PMs. I will place you on ignore if you do so.

 

[Elijah2]

My personal request is that you no longer reply to my messages or send me PMs. I will place you on ignore if you do so.

Mate, when I threw my 4 x 4 into the bin, that means I am finished with trying to get some sense into your commonsense.

As I said a long time ago, that you need our Lord Jesus Christ in your heart and start thinking with your heart. I also suggested that you are proud person, and you need to get rid of your pride. I also suggested to you to go and get good GOD-anointed Christian counselling.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[ArcticFox]

I have to be honest …. I’m really not sure why you have posted here... are you not aware that we are merely human beings? Christians on the very same road as you…
You eliminate all avenues of the help that we can offer you… the above things are the limitations of our human offerings…. Yes we can say to you that we have walked where you are – many of us have. I personally can relate to sooo much of your frustrations – Even Jesus cried out ‘Father why have you forsaken me’ in his darkest time … but the things that brought us back from those times – you have closed your heart and mind off too… because you feel you have exhausted them…

I've posted here in hopes of finding a real answer. In particular, how is it that the promises that fill up the Bible could not come true for a believer? I wanted to see if someone else's words could help me see my own failure to see properly, or if they could send me in the right direction for thinking differently.

I knew that many would give well-meaning and very well-intentioned cliché answers, and I don't fault for repeating what they've heard over and over. But this time there's no quick and easy answer. Some might want to believe that I just need an exorcism and things will be A-OK. Some might want to believe that if I just read (yet another) book about God's love, then somehow I'll "see it for real this time." Others would inevitably resort to "you didn't really, REALLY believe in God.. do it for real!"

I'm doing and not doing it all, waiting and hoping and expecting and waiting more and more... and still finding that the land is as dry as it was years ago.

In particular, I have a problem with a man who says to me, "Come work for me, I'll pay you well and you'll be safe," and yet when I go to work for him, he pays me not even enough to make a living off of, however meager, and he puts me to work with very dangerous machines. I'd call that man a liar, I'd say that I've been duped.

In like manner, can I honestly just say "God is good!" when he promises his yoke is easy and his burden is light when it seems to have added immensely to my heavy and spirit-crushing burden? I'm not even carrying over a burden from before my conversion, it's a burden that came as *a result of* my conversion... when I became a Christian, the burdens started piling up. The yoke felt very, very hard to keep pulling.

So I try in every way I know how to just let go, or to "lay it at the feet of Jesus," or "leave it at the cross," or "cast my burdens on the Lord." I wait... and wait. Nothing changes. Some things actually get worse. Finally I thought I found a church where I can belong and help others and have a purpose. And then what? The church nearly destroys me, makes my life miserable, sucks me into what is quite possibly a "cult" in many ways. I musta really been pretty dense not to have seen that one coming, I'm usually so cautious.

So are you humbling me God? I ask this over and over. No response that I know of, and nothing changes. I quit regularly attending any church. I occasionally go to another one. I noticed that the more I don't go, the better I feel about myself. I start eating healthier, feeling healthier, relaxing more easily, and enjoying my life. All of this because I quit reading the Bible and going to church (regularly).

That is so completely backwards to what the Bible is promising. As a believer, my spirit should be grieved. It's not. I debated not even seeking advice in this forum, I told myself "they'll label you a non-Christian who's just been putzing around among Christians, all they'll do is tell you to 'really' believe." I'm surprised that I've gotten a lot of thoughtful answers.

And that's what I'm looking for. I'm not tossing out questions rhetorically. They are genuinely real questions.

Why was I promised the surpassing peace of God but don't have it? Why was I promised an easy burden and light yoke, and don't have it? Why was I promised that all things would work for my good, yet they seemed to work against me to make me not want to believe? Why do I feel better when I cease regular gathering with the believers? Why does it feel that, no matter how much I knock, the door *never* opens? Why do I not feel the power of the Holy Spirit?

 

[IndieVisible]

I've posted here in hopes of finding a real answer. In particular, how is it that the promises that fill up the Bible could not come true for a believer? I wanted to see if someone else's words could help me see my own failure to see properly, or if they could send me in the right direction for thinking differently.

I knew that many would give well-meaning and very well-intentioned cliché answers, and I don't fault for repeating what they've heard over and over. But this time there's no quick and easy answer. Some might want to believe that I just need an exorcism and things will be A-OK. Some might want to believe that if I just read (yet another) book about God's love, then somehow I'll "see it for real this time." Others would inevitably resort to "you didn't really, REALLY believe in God.. do it for real!"

I'm doing and not doing it all, waiting and hoping and expecting and waiting more and more... and still finding that the land is as dry as it was years ago.

In particular, I have a problem with a man who says to me, "Come work for me, I'll pay you well and you'll be safe," and yet when I go to work for him, he pays me not even enough to make a living off of, however meager, and he puts me to work with very dangerous machines. I'd call that man a liar, I'd say that I've been duped.

In like manner, can I honestly just say "God is good!" when he promises his yoke is easy and his burden is light when it seems to have added immensely to my heavy and spirit-crushing burden? I'm not even carrying over a burden from before my conversion, it's a burden that came as *a result of* my conversion... when I became a Christian, the burdens started piling up. The yoke felt very, very hard to keep pulling.

So I try in every way I know how to just let go, or to "lay it at the feet of Jesus," or "leave it at the cross," or "cast my burdens on the Lord." I wait... and wait. Nothing changes. Some things actually get worse. Finally I thought I found a church where I can belong and help others and have a purpose. And then what? The church nearly destroys me, makes my life miserable, sucks me into what is quite possibly a "cult" in many ways. I musta really been pretty dense not to have seen that one coming, I'm usually so cautious.

So are you humbling me God? I ask this over and over. No response that I know of, and nothing changes. I quit regularly attending any church. I occasionally go to another one. I noticed that the more I don't go, the better I feel about myself. I start eating healthier, feeling healthier, relaxing more easily, and enjoying my life. All of this because I quit reading the Bible and going to church (regularly).

That is so completely backwards to what the Bible is promising. As a believer, my spirit should be grieved. It's not. I debated not even seeking advice in this forum, I told myself "they'll label you a non-Christian who's just been putzing around among Christians, all they'll do is tell you to 'really' believe." I'm surprised that I've gotten a lot of thoughtful answers.

And that's what I'm looking for. I'm not tossing out questions rhetorically. They are genuinely real questions.

Why was I promised the surpassing peace of God but don't have it? Why was I promised an easy burden and light yoke, and don't have it? Why was I promised that all things would work for my good, yet they seemed to work against me to make me not want to believe? Why do I feel better when I cease regular gathering with the believers? Why does it feel that, no matter how much I knock, the door *never* opens? Why do I not feel the power of the Holy Spirit?

Hello. i'm 53, been there done that over and over again. Belonged to several different churches. Currently I can not go to any church as they make me uncomfortable because they seem so fake to me. And there is the key I think.

For many people they fake it, they want every thing the pastor is pushing, they want to be a part of all that so bad they psyche themselves. But since it's not real, most simply wander away or try a different church or just go back to the rat race.

The problem is real and your not alone. The awnser you may not like too. But here goes. Religion is not absolute or infallable, it is man's attempt to understand God, it is man made. Here is what I suggest you try. Start researching the historical facts how Christianity came to be and develope. Find out how we got the bible, any thing and every thing you can! I did this very thing. For years I begged God to help in open my mind. I believe He led me down that path for a reason. It taught me God is much bigger then religion paints Him to be and NO RELIGION even comes close to understanding and explaining what God is. Forget all the creeds and doctrines which are all man made. Discover that there is a God and that no magical experience happens except you mature in understanding. I pray daily, and have a relationship with God, yet I belong to no church or denomination. I view them all half right and half wrong.

learn to live your own life the best you can but never stop learning about God or praying, even if you do not get the responses you expect or were told to expect

God Bless you son, your just a normal human with a open mind. Nothing wrong with that!

 

[visionary]

I think you and the Lord should sit down and have a man to man talk... Rev 3:20 comes to mind... Put your finger on it and ask the Lord for His Presence. I believe what you are needing is the head on encounter with Him. Repent and ask God to show you everything you need to repent of. He will open up that Book of your life and reveal sins you never knew as sins. Repent of them. He will go over your life, clean out your attic [mind] of the past that has been collection dust and cluttering up your life. When He is through, you will experience the "peace that passes all understanding" . Then He will place the robe of His Righteousness on your shoulders so that you can be in His Holy Presence. And the He will come and "sup with you". There you will find the contentment for your souls needs.

 

[ArcticFox]

Hello. i'm 53, been there done that over and over again. Belonged to several different churches. Currently I can not go to any church as they make me uncomfortable because they seem so fake to me. And there is the key I think.

For many people they fake it, they want every thing the pastor is pushing, they want to be a part of all that so bad they psyche themselves. But since it's not real, most simply wander away or try a different church or just go back to the rat race.

I'm agreeing more and more with people who believe this.

The problem is real and your not alone. The awnser you may not like too. But here goes. Religion is not absolute or infallable, it is man's attempt to understand God, it is man made. Here is what I suggest you try. Start researching the historical facts how Christianity came to be and develope. Find out how we got the bible, any thing and every thing you can! I did this very thing. For years I begged God to help in open my mind. I believe He led me down that path for a reason. It taught me God is much bigger then religion paints Him to be and NO RELIGION even comes close to understanding and explaining what God is. Forget all the creeds and doctrines which are all man made. Discover that there is a God and that no magical experience happens except you mature in understanding. I pray daily, and have a relationship with God, yet I belong to no church or denomination. I view them all half right and half wrong.

learn to live your own life the best you can but never stop learning about God or praying, even if you do not get the responses you expect or were told to expect

God Bless you son, your just a normal human with a open mind. Nothing wrong with that!

I'm not with you on this, however. I believe that although God cannot be fully contained and understand from mere pages in a book, I believe that all we need to know about him were given to us in the Bible, and that other religions are these "man-made" attempts to create a god in our own image.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

 

[ArcticFox]

I think you and the Lord should sit down and have a man to man talk... Rev 3:20 comes to mind... Put your finger on it and ask the Lord for His Presence. I believe what you are needing is the head on encounter with Him. Repent and ask God to show you everything you need to repent of. He will open up that Book of your life and reveal sins you never knew as sins. Repent of them. He will go over your life, clean out your attic [mind] of the past that has been collection dust and cluttering up your life. When He is through, you will experience the "peace that passes all understanding" . Then He will place the robe of His Righteousness on your shoulders so that you can be in His Holy Presence. And the He will come and "sup with you". There you will find the contentment for your souls needs.

I've done this. I've tried to do it in a variety of ways. The result is never what people tell me it should be.

Then the conversation goes one of two ways. They either insist I haven't done it right, and need to do it "for real this time," or they accuse me of being prideful, tell me I'm exalting myself and refuse to repent.

So my question.. what if a person has done this in every way they know possible, and yet don't seem to be changing?

 

[razzelflabben]

I've done this. I've tried to do it in a variety of ways. The result is never what people tell me it should be.

Then the conversation goes one of two ways. They either insist I haven't done it right, and need to do it "for real this time," or they accuse me of being prideful, tell me I'm exalting myself and refuse to repent.

So my question.. what if a person has done this in every way they know possible, and yet don't seem to be changing?

for years I felt this way, and then one day, I sat down and realized that I had changed, I just had failed to see it within myself. Change isn't always immediate and bold, sometimes it's subtle and quiet and growing.

 

[Zeena]

Repentance is not a one time deal bro..

I've not been abiding in Christ my entire walk as a born again Christian.
But Faithful is the Lord to lead me back.

And I've had to repent of the deception which made me to err.

For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. Jeremiah 2:13

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Rev.2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

[visionary]

I've done this. I've tried to do it in a variety of ways. The result is never what people tell me it should be.

Then the conversation goes one of two ways. They either insist I haven't done it right, and need to do it "for real this time," or they accuse me of being prideful, tell me I'm exalting myself and refuse to repent.

So my question.. what if a person has done this in every way they know possible, and yet don't seem to be changing?

Question... are you expecting your works to invoke His participation.. or are you asking and hoping He will respond because it is His Will. Big difference. God is obligated to His Will.

His Will is to save all, that includes you, whether you believe it or not. So He is willing to do what it takes to achieve that goal without crossing the line and stepping over the bounds of your free will.

His Will is to meet everyone face to face.. Sooner is His perference, because later it will be in His glory which is hard to take if one does not have any preparation for what is to come.

Somehow, I get the defeatist attitude impression from what you are writting, and it could be because you have done all the hoop jumping you can stand and nothing has worked for you... But have you stood still and know He is God. Let go ... let God lead and direct this show. He is not going to come and do and be as you direct. I have no idea what you are expecting and what you are wanting from Him, nor it is important. What is important is for you to be willing to let Him decide and let Him show Himself. Abraham was probably shocked when the visitors showed up, not expecting God to visit.

I am not knocking you or your spiritual efforts to climb mount zion to be in His Presence. I wish it was everyone's goal. Do you know that Moses was first called, and then He obeyed, and then He cleansed Himself for three days while climbing the Mount Sinai, in order to prepare Himself and yet knew not how God would manifest Himself or what would happen for that matter?

I have no idea what it is between you and the Lord, but one thing is for sure, God wants to get close to you, real close, and you want the same thing... so what is left to be determined is what is separating you from His Presence. Pray God will tell you. Acknowledge what comes to mind as from God and repent so that it is not what separates you from Him. By the way, He has a big list, overwhelmingly so, and shockingly accurate... but better to clear it up now that later... by the way, the responsibility that comes with this meeting, is like Moses coming down from Mount Sinai... full of heavy responsibilities... maybe that is what you are truly afraid of..

Hey, anything I suggest is only a guess and only God can really tell you what it is.

 

[pinkputter]

Surrending all you have and are to our Heavely Father is nothing close to giving up, dear one!

Surrender it all to Him, for we have a limited perspective. He KNOWS what is best for you.

"Sweet Surrender" by Sara McLaclan is one of my favorites and was reminded of its truth. Youtube it, it definitely applies to your question. Peace be with your spirit.. and God bless always..

 

[Ange27]

Why was I promised the surpassing peace of God but don't have it? Why was I promised an easy burden and light yoke, and don't have it? Why was I promised that all things would work for my good, yet they seemed to work against me to make me not want to believe? Why do I feel better when I cease regular gathering with the believers? Why does it feel that, no matter how much I knock, the door *never* opens? Why do I not feel the power of the Holy Spirit?

Arctic Fox... I'm sorry , I know you may not want to hear this but the reasons you do not have these things is due to something that you are doing.. or not doing .. that may not be helpful but I absolutely know it to be true.

I know this because I do experience the peace that surpasses all understanding, I do see how my terrible circumstances work for my good.. and I do feel the power of the Holy spirit ... and I know that there is nothing unique or special about me. You and I both have blood running through our veins and we are both children of God. The promises God gives in his word is not for a select few, it is for all of us. However, we must seek these gifts; the bible tells us to 'diligently' seek his peace...

There is one thing I notice that is different about you and I .. our attitudes. Joyce Meyer says your attitude is your thoughts turned inside out...
I cannot imagine ever considering that perhaps the promises of God are not true because I do not see them manifesting in my life... If I found that my prayers were not being answered or the words of the bible were not moving me ... I would desperately look at myself to see where the problem was .... after I had probably exhausted myself doing this, I would stand still and quiet... not attempting to do anything at all to resolve the issue, no matter how chaotic my life was becoming around me ... I would do this in order to hear God ... for when you make too much 'noise' in your situation, you cannot hear God speak to you..

This could be your testing time - God could be looking at you right now observing how you choose to handle this situation... He may be drawing you to a place where you feel totally void of his presence because he may want you to lean entirely on him - he may want you to seek him anew.. we don't know what God is dealing with you about... but there may be an area in your life that needs work and for whatever reason.. this is part of the process... but if your attitude is wrong ... you may miss something amazing. I get the feeling that you have been drawn right to the edge of the cliff... you are either going to find God again and know what this has all been about... or you are going to go over the edge.. Please don't let your wrong attitude lead you the wrong way. All these words you are throwing out there, these doubts about God's promises... you're leaving a huge great crack for the devil to slip in and pry apart even more... a big pool of doubt for him drop even more negitive thoughts in order to further stir up the storm of unbelief .. I can't help thinking that you would see improvement if you simply spoke aganst what you feel and what you see.. if you confessed that God is with you ... even though you don't feel him and God is working in your life even though you don't see it.. the power of life and death is in the tongue - speak what you want.


Lastly, I just want to say I'm not sure you find it surprising that you feel relaxed and happier outside of church and following God. This is the world my friend, the devils turf. Conforming to the ways of the world is really not hard if your spirit has already become desensitized.. the most difficult thing you can do is be a Christian in the world because it goes against our natural urges and desires. Its a constant effort to study the bible and church attendance only becomes easy after it becomes routine in your life..

 

[Zeena]

Lastly, I just want to say I'm not sure you find it surprising that you feel relaxed and happier outside of church and following God. This is the world my friend, the devils turf. Conforming to the ways of the world is really not hard if your spirit has already become desensitized.. the most difficult thing you can do is be a Christian in the world because it goes against our natural urges and desires. Its a constant effort to study the bible and church attendance only becomes easy after it becomes routine in your life..

Yet, not for Jesus, Artic Fox.

And He's your Life!

Philippians 2:5-13
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Ephesians 4:22-24
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[ArcticFox]

Arctic Fox... I'm sorry , I know you may not want to hear this but the reasons you do not have these things is due to something that you are doing.. or not doing .. that may not be helpful but I absolutely know it to be true.

I've *long* considered that and acted on that assumption. But, in the end, when I read the Bible I see an all-powerful God, an all-sovereign God working all things. No man can stay his hand. Through all of that power, does God merely sit back and wait for me to "figure out" what I'm screwing up? Despite asking and begging for an answer, will he wait in silence and just hope that I figure it out on my own?

Why would he? It doesn't make sense, common sense or Biblical sense. Wouldn't a good father want to offer comfort and help to his child? Would he sit by waiting while the child wanders further and further?

Anyway, here I am, still begging and asking, and still receiving no answer... except just recently, perhaps there's something.

In the midst of this complete emptiness, I decided to visit a church I've been to many times. I went into the city, and walked over there with my wife. She thought she saw a guy that had just arrived at our old church (the one that we had to leave for a variety of complicated reasons). I told her it couldn't be him... but in fact it was. We talked at length about the problems he was experiencing at the church, which almost perfectly mirrored mine. We went to dinner with a big church group, and talked more about it. We've since gotten together, and he's expressing all his feelings of doubts, anxieties, feelings of abandonment. What he's sharing is nearly an exact copy of all the things I once felt or experienced, or am feeling now.

I'm more and more realizing the very serious and negative affect that church has had on me, on my wife, and on this guy too. I know a lot of people who've left it, and all the say the same things about it...

I'll see what comes of this.

I know this because I do experience the peace that surpasses all understanding, I do see how my terrible circumstances work for my good.. and I do feel the power of the Holy spirit ... and I know that there is nothing unique or special about me. You and I both have blood running through our veins and we are both children of God. The promises God gives in his word is not for a select few, it is for all of us. However, we must seek these gifts; the bible tells us to 'diligently' seek his peace...

I've noticed that people's personalities play a huge part in their Christian walk. Happy, smiley people retain that in their faith, while people who struggle with doubts and worries about life often carry that over into their conversion. I have to worry if people's experiences in their Christian life are often the result of their personality, brain chemistry, and circumstances combined.

I see a lot of phoniness around me. The more I try to think about the life I live(d) as a Christian, and the lives of those around me in the past and present, I can think of so much hypocrisy, so much self-delusion, so much falsehood. People lying about how they feel to the masses but telling the truth to a select few, people feeling abandoned or hurt by something they are told shouldn't make them feel that way, people wanting so much for the pastor's words to be true for them that they lie to themselves, but only so long as they can maintain the façade.

What do you do when you realize you're a fake, and many of the people around you are fakes, and that despite a lot of efforts to not be fake, you can't force yourself to believe what you don't or be what you're not? I want to believe and be a solid Christian, but it just doesn't come about... I've been through and through the Bible, hoping it will change me "this time."

"This time, instead of the Bible in a year again, I'll focus on the gospels," I tell myself. Nothing really changes. "I'll recommit my life to God, go to these retreats, immerse myself in the Word. I need to focus on the Old Testament prophets to see how hardcore my sin is," I say... but again, no change.

"I'll pray harder, longer, more sincerely this time." Nothing... "I'll sit in silence and let God do his work in me... I'll wait, and even if nothing happens, I'll be content in him!" I forcefully say to myself... And I try, Lord knows I've tried... but I still feel fake and don't even feel like anything changes.

"I need to take hold of his promises and act on them, I need to make this change in God's power." It doesn't work. "I need to just let go and let God..." Nothing... "It's a valley. It's just downtime.. I'll press on, set it aside, I'll conquer it by continuing to live in his grace and peace," I reassure myself. I don't feel the peace, don't feel or sense or see any grace, I feel like I'm just failing as usual, and before long, I can't keep going. "God give me strength to keep going!" I cry out...

But that strength just doesn't come. "This will pass," I keep saying. "This year it'll pass..." "Next year it'll pass..." The thoughts I have becoming increasingly weaker, attributing less and less strength to God as he seemingly fails to come through for me. "Maybe God could make it pass this year..." "God *could* make this pass... he could... if he wanted to, maybe he doesn't want to... maybe he wants me to be this way..."

So I cry out to people in as dignified and non-needy a manner I can... trying not to be too weak, so I can maintain my image. Then later I just dump the image, try to remain decent about my approach but let people know how I feel. The answers always fall into two categories: trite, cliché answers that I've heard a thousand times by evangelical Christians, or that only God can give me an answer and that I need to go to him.

Neither seems to have done much of anything to help me. Finally a Christian friend of mine says to me, "Man I don't have any answers for you. Really, I got nothing. It seems like you've done everything you're supposed to do, and you seem genuine to me, like, you're coming from the heart. I just don't know. Honestly."

I felt a bit of comfort in knowing that here was someone who finally came straight out and gave me a painfully honest, seemingly "un-Christian" answer. As Christians, are we ever supposed to have no real answer?

I have no way to convince anyone, much less on an internet messageboard, that I'm genuine. I expect some people, as has happened, to accuse me of being disingenuous, or coming here to try to prove some point. I'm not, and I didn't come here to do that. I didn't come here to vent anger at God, or try to disillusion any Christians. I came here for precisely the reason I stated... to pour out my heart and see if there's anything that someone could offer me that might help me to see my situation differently, or come to terms with what's going on...

There will always be the trite answers and the oversimplifications that leave me as hopeless as ever, the accusers who try to pile more guilt and shame on a conscience that can bare it no more, and the false preachers who try to lead me further away from the truth in the Bible. If I follow the first one, I become a shell, a façade, a phony. If I follow the second, I become legalistic, judgmental, and harbor hate. If I follow the third, I listen to the wolf and allow him to devour me whole.

Is there a fourth kind of speaker? I dunno. I don't know what to do or what to think. For now I have no choice but to wait, because I'm not ready to walk away from something I once considered the most important thing in the universe. But I'm not ready to keep going as I have been.

And that's where I'm at.

 

[visionary]

Long suffering and patient.. God will answer in His time... Be still and know He is God... Praying for you.

 

[Zeena]

Would he sit by waiting while the child wanders further and further?

Psalm 139:7-8
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell*, behold, thou art there.

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

2 Peter 1:2-11
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:7-11
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Colossians 3:4
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

*Sheol