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When nothing seems enough... do I give up?

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ArcticFox

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It sounds like while you know in your mind that Christ died to save you from the chains of sin and that he forgave you, you never really believed it with your heart. That is why you are experiencing guilt and feel that you will never be good enough. You are depending on yourself to uphold the law instead of depending on the Holy Spirit.

I think you've read my post, but perhaps you didn't see one thing I was trying to communicate very clearly. I did have what I believed was a genuine conversion of the Holy Spirit. I tried several times to "make sure" I did, because people like you often emphasize this idea of "head belief but no heart belief," so just to be safe and secure, I tried several times to make certain of my salvation.

If I haven't "really believed" by now, then I would have to say that "really believing" is too ambiguous and confusing for anyone to ever be sure of. The Bible says that it was written (part of it at least) so that we may KNOW that we have eternal life, not think or believe it or want.

So, should I go back to God and this time "really, really, really, really believe" in Him, because the last time wasn't "really" enough?
 
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ArcticFox

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Also seriously consider Zoloft. Can't hurt. ; )

Susannah

For a very brief period of time I took an equivalent medication. I realized quickly that my problem didn't seem to be chemical, but something else.

I am certainly giving the impression that I may be depressed. My life now is "fine," at least in any worldly sense. I am not a sad person and I don't feel "rejected" by life. I know that the isolated incidents like my church experience here are because of people who failed to do the right things, which caused me hurt. I do not believe they represent the entire world, and so the world doesn't "hate me," just a handful of misguided people don't love me the way they should have and claimed they did.

My life goes on, but the biggest problem remains that "staying in the faith" seems by all accounts to be the very thing that makes me feel more and more miserable, and a departure from it (actively trying to live it out) seems to relieve that misery.

What I am trying to communicate is that the promises of the Bible did not and don't seem to be coming true for me, regardless of my actions or inactions. A lot of people keep saying, "you have to REALLY believe in your heart," or "you have to look harder" or "you have to try harder," or "you have to let go and let God," or even something else. All of these things I have given their time to shine, and all of them disappointed.

How many times does your father tell you he'll take you to the zoo tomorrow until you realize that he's never going to take you, he just keeps promising what he cannot or will not do? How many times does your father promise you an awesome birthday party that ends with NOTHING, and yet you still believe he'll do it next year? How many times does a father say to his child, "I love you" and yet not seemingly do anything loving before the child must conclude that they are empty words, revealing nothing more than the possibility of a desire to love but lacking the substance?

Any Christian who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk is exposed as a phony. How are we to read the Bible? Are all these promises valid only after we die? Many seem to be to us NOW, not just after death. In fact, some cannot be talking to us after we die, because they apply to issues we face in the world (but not so in Heaven or in the new world).

Time and time again I take hold of the promises, and don't receive them in any way that I can notice. Then, I talk to other Christians who tell me either a placid and canned answer that sounds like a Bible school lesson, or they tell me in honesty that they haven't received it or "reached that point" either.

God's promises should be rock solid guarantees, right? Or are they promises with all these unmentioned conditions that are so narrow and particular that we can virtually never fulfill them and thus never receive the promise?

How long will people keep saying, "things will change, things will change, hang on, things will change?" It's been my entire Christian life of 10 years and things haven't gotten better, they've gotten worse, contrary to Bible promises. Some may see "look at the Hebrews who wandered in the desert," and my response has to be, "That's supposed to comfort someone? Look at other people who suffered for a lot longer?"

I fail to see how God truly extends love if he leaves people hanging for so long.
 
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Zeena

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I think you've read my post, but perhaps you didn't see one thing I was trying to communicate very clearly. I did have what I believed was a genuine conversion of the Holy Spirit. I tried several times to "make sure" I did, because people like you often emphasize this idea of "head belief but no heart belief," so just to be safe and secure, I tried several times to make certain of my salvation.

If I haven't "really believed" by now, then I would have to say that "really believing" is too ambiguous and confusing for anyone to ever be sure of. The Bible says that it was written (part of it at least) so that we may KNOW that we have eternal life, not think or believe it or want.

So, should I go back to God and this time "really, really, really, really believe" in Him, because the last time wasn't "really" enough?
Thing is;

You have to believe Jesus is your Life before you know you have Eternal Life;

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
 
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razzelflabben

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I think you've read my post, but perhaps you didn't see one thing I was trying to communicate very clearly. I did have what I believed was a genuine conversion of the Holy Spirit. I tried several times to "make sure" I did, because people like you often emphasize this idea of "head belief but no heart belief," so just to be safe and secure, I tried several times to make certain of my salvation.

If I haven't "really believed" by now, then I would have to say that "really believing" is too ambiguous and confusing for anyone to ever be sure of. The Bible says that it was written (part of it at least) so that we may KNOW that we have eternal life, not think or believe it or want.

So, should I go back to God and this time "really, really, really, really believe" in Him, because the last time wasn't "really" enough?
when I first came to Christ, I had no idea what or who Christ was, what I saw was a strength I needed and if anyone could give it, it was God.

for years I sought the emotional response that everyone else around me seemed to be having...I went through all the formulas to get that emotional response...I said the sinners prayer dozens of times, believed, etc. and still no emotional response...I loved God with all I am, but still I wasn't emotionally connected to him...over time I learned that loving God isn't about the emotional attachments, nor is it about blind faith as so many believe...but rather loving God is about becoming intimate with God, knowing Him so intimately that you long to be in His presence, to hear His voice, to know Him more...Loving, serving, worshiping God is about knowing God, not just going through the forumlas for having an emotional response...over time as I looked back, I realized that I had loved Him all along, and found superhuman strength to endure when others would have failed. things that are not often seen in the midst of our trials.
 
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razzelflabben

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For a very brief period of time I took an equivalent medication. I realized quickly that my problem didn't seem to be chemical, but something else.

I am certainly giving the impression that I may be depressed. My life now is "fine," at least in any worldly sense. I am not a sad person and I don't feel "rejected" by life. I know that the isolated incidents like my church experience here are because of people who failed to do the right things, which caused me hurt. I do not believe they represent the entire world, and so the world doesn't "hate me," just a handful of misguided people don't love me the way they should have and claimed they did.

My life goes on, but the biggest problem remains that "staying in the faith" seems by all accounts to be the very thing that makes me feel more and more miserable, and a departure from it (actively trying to live it out) seems to relieve that misery.

What I am trying to communicate is that the promises of the Bible did not and don't seem to be coming true for me, regardless of my actions or inactions. A lot of people keep saying, "you have to REALLY believe in your heart," or "you have to look harder" or "you have to try harder," or "you have to let go and let God," or even something else. All of these things I have given their time to shine, and all of them disappointed.

How many times does your father tell you he'll take you to the zoo tomorrow until you realize that he's never going to take you, he just keeps promising what he cannot or will not do? How many times does your father promise you an awesome birthday party that ends with NOTHING, and yet you still believe he'll do it next year? How many times does a father say to his child, "I love you" and yet not seemingly do anything loving before the child must conclude that they are empty words, revealing nothing more than the possibility of a desire to love but lacking the substance?
what in this case, does belief mean? Isn't belief trust? so do you trust God to give you these things? If so, how do they come to us?

I suffered no's (like this) for years, and then one day, I said, Lord, I trust you, I simply trust you...in that moment, I found what I had been seeking...I believed for years, but it wasn't till I trusted that I found the peace, the joy, the love, the grace, etc. I so desperately wanting in my life. Took years to come to the understanding that belief and trust are two different things.
Any Christian who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk is exposed as a phony. How are we to read the Bible? Are all these promises valid only after we die? Many seem to be to us NOW, not just after death. In fact, some cannot be talking to us after we die, because they apply to issues we face in the world (but not so in Heaven or in the new world).

Time and time again I take hold of the promises, and don't receive them in any way that I can notice. Then, I talk to other Christians who tell me either a placid and canned answer that sounds like a Bible school lesson, or they tell me in honesty that they haven't received it or "reached that point" either.

God's promises should be rock solid guarantees, right? Or are they promises with all these unmentioned conditions that are so narrow and particular that we can virtually never fulfill them and thus never receive the promise?
some of the promises of God we don't see until we are through the trial and look back at where we were. In fact, some of these things we grow in, as we learn to live in the Spirit we grow or mature in our abilities to allow the Spirit control...other times, it seems to be a matter of trusting God to be who He claims to be. Right now, your post is riddled with doubt, but trust is taking God at His word and not doubting, like the child whose father promises a special gift for his birthday, the child doesn't say, "oh daddy lied before, he'll do it again." Instead, the child looks behind every cushion, every knick knack, every door, for the gift that the father promised. He doesn't doubt that the gift is there, but rather trusts that dad didn't forget.

So then let me ask you this, when was the last time you looked within yourself for the gifts you sought? Behind every doubt, every disappointment, behind every selfish thought, for the gift of peace and joy that you were promised? Many times we hid God's gifts from ourselves.
How long will people keep saying, "things will change, things will change, hang on, things will change?" It's been my entire Christian life of 10 years and things haven't gotten better, they've gotten worse, contrary to Bible promises. Some may see "look at the Hebrews who wandered in the desert," and my response has to be, "That's supposed to comfort someone? Look at other people who suffered for a lot longer?"

I fail to see how God truly extends love if he leaves people hanging for so long.
All I can tell you is that when I stopped looking at myself and started looking at God, I found all the things He promised and more. I guess you could say I found the promises of God hiding behind the things I was holding dear.
 
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I think you've read my post, but perhaps you didn't see one thing I was trying to communicate very clearly. I did have what I believed was a genuine conversion of the Holy Spirit. I tried several times to "make sure" I did, because people like you often emphasize this idea of "head belief but no heart belief," so just to be safe and secure, I tried several times to make certain of my salvation.

If I haven't "really believed" by now, then I would have to say that "really believing" is too ambiguous and confusing for anyone to ever be sure of. The Bible says that it was written (part of it at least) so that we may KNOW that we have eternal life, not think or believe it or want.

So, should I go back to God and this time "really, really, really, really believe" in Him, because the last time wasn't "really" enough?

I want to apologize to you for misunderstanding your post. You said that you felt guilty about your sins of the past and I assumed that to mean that you didn't truly believe in Christ's saving power and forgiveness. If you do truly believe in it, then praise the Lord! I understand what you mean. You can truly believe, but Satan likes to make us feel guilty or like we will never be good enough. He does that to me, too. I just reject his lies and call him a liar, but then I replace them with the truth. I remind myself of what Christ did for me and that I don't have to feel guilty. Satan will do all that he can if he thinks that it will negatively affect our relationship with the Lord. We just have to resist him over and over again until finally the Lord rebukes him. Eventually he will have to give up. And sometimes the problem is that we take our eyes off of Jesus and look at the world around us and if things aren't going how we think they should be, our faith may falter. Always keep your eyes on Jesus! Our hope lies in Him! And no, he doesn't promise us that our life here on earth will always be pleasant. What he promises is that we will face hardships because of Him, but that if we stand up for him and keep the faith, he will be with us through it all and we will be able to find joy even in the worst of circumstances. He will help you to see his works that are around you, even in your own personal life. If you are blinded to them, perhaps it is because you are not looking through the eyes of faith or because you have taken your eyes off of Jesus. Consider Matt 14:22-33:

Jesus Walks on the Water
22Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd. 23After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone, 24but the boat was already a considerable distance£ from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.
25During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.
27But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”
28“Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”
29“Come,” he said.
Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”
31Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”
32And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
34When they had crossed over, they landed at Gennesaret. 35And when the men of that place recognized Jesus, they sent word to all the surrounding country. People brought all their sick to him 36and begged him to let the sick just touch the edge of his cloak, and all who touched him were healed.
 
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what in this case, does belief mean? Isn't belief trust? so do you trust God to give you these things? If so, how do they come to us?

I suffered no's (like this) for years, and then one day, I said, Lord, I trust you, I simply trust you...in that moment, I found what I had been seeking...I believed for years, but it wasn't till I trusted that I found the peace, the joy, the love, the grace, etc. I so desperately wanting in my life. Took years to come to the understanding that belief and trust are two different things. some of the promises of God we don't see until we are through the trial and look back at where we were. In fact, some of these things we grow in, as we learn to live in the Spirit we grow or mature in our abilities to allow the Spirit control...other times, it seems to be a matter of trusting God to be who He claims to be. Right now, your post is riddled with doubt, but trust is taking God at His word and not doubting, like the child whose father promises a special gift for his birthday, the child doesn't say, "oh daddy lied before, he'll do it again." Instead, the child looks behind every cushion, every knick knack, every door, for the gift that the father promised. He doesn't doubt that the gift is there, but rather trusts that dad didn't forget.

So then let me ask you this, when was the last time you looked within yourself for the gifts you sought? Behind every doubt, every disappointment, behind every selfish thought, for the gift of peace and joy that you were promised? Many times we hid God's gifts from ourselves.
All I can tell you is that when I stopped looking at myself and started looking at God, I found all the things He promised and more. I guess you could say I found the promises of God hiding behind the things I was holding dear.

AMEN!
 
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ArcticFox

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I want to apologize to you for misunderstanding your post. You said that you felt guilty about your sins of the past and I assumed that to mean that you didn't truly believe in Christ's saving power and forgiveness.

That is precisely the problem -- I DO believe in his saving power and his extended, bountiful forgiveness (grace). Why is it a problem? Because for all practical intents and purposes, it seems to be ineffectual at producing change in me.

The proof is in the pudding... It's an old adage that means that you'll know whether something is valid or real based on the end result. You can question a cook all you want, but in the end, if it's good food, it's good food. You take a taste and if it tastes great, that's the reality.

Well here I am reading all this stuff in the Bible, reading it more than most of my other Christian friends have done even though they had more than twice the time being a Christian as me. I came to have an understanding of the Bible that helped me to encourage and even instruct, at times, believers of a much longer-held faith.

Now people often respond by saying, "well all this head knowledge isn't where it's at, it's gotta be a reality in your heart." OK, so, I shouldn't study the Bible or read it carefully? I've done a variety of different study methods, including the "devotional" style, where you just sort of read it and let it "soak in," supposedly. I found that method a bit dry, since it lacked the depth of looking deeper into the Word.

So what's this "head knowledge" versus "heart knowledge" issue? Is it about really believing or not? If that's the issue, than yes, I really believed it as much as I knew how and could. I believe that if I didn't "really" believe it before, there is no way for me to ever know whether I can "really" believe it in the future. How "really" is "really?" Like how "really" do I need to get to qualify?

Letting go and letting God some say... as I said before, tried that method, didn't go anywhere for me. And no, I didn't try it for a few days or weeks and then say, "nope, I'm not magically changed, I give up." I gave genuine, heart-felt efforts to doing a variety of different things, including a genuine attempt to just "do nothing" and wait on God.

That's where the problem is... the forgiveness hasn't removed my self-doubt, self-judgment, and guilt. The grace of God hasn't made me feel "free" in any sense. I felt that way for a VERY brief time at first, but it was so fleeting that worldly things have given me a longer-lasting "high."

If God's Word isn't powerful enough to see me through these times, what am I to conclude? That I'm "doing it wrong?" I tried doing and even NOT doing it every way I knew how, and then tried waiting to see if God was breaking me to mold me anew... nothing. God's Word should be ultimately powerful, more so than any self-doubts of mine. If I have to "keep fighting" them like this, than God's Word is doing a worse job than just doing it some worldly way, because I feel better when I'm not constantly reading it.

That's the pudding for me. The proof is there, in the reality that I experience. In the reality of the walk that I tried to walk by faith and not by sight. It seems that walking by faith was more stressful, less enjoyable, more guilt-ridden than walking by sight.
 
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Johnnz

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Your frustrations are real enough. I had a paradigm shift that enabled me to take quite a different approach to living. I don't know if this extract will help, but it was along the lines where my Christianity related to the whole of life, not just a separate 'religious' compartment.

John
NZ
“Among the religions of human history and all their visions of God, what is it about the Christian vision of God that is distinctive? What sets it apart from other religious visions? There are at least two acts about the Christian God that are unparalleled: The first is the doctrine of the Trinity. The second is the humility of God. In no other religion do we have a god who stoops, a god who comes down to enter into human history in the most inconceivably personal way. But here in Christianity, we have a God who wants to be united with us and who is prepared to humble Himself and even to suffer to accomplish such a union. The gods of human imagination are indifferent towards the human race. Towering above us in their glory, they are distant and unapproachable - preoccupied with themselves and with things far more important than human existence. These gods exist in eternal separation from us, and whatever interest they take in human affairs serves their own ends.

The Christian God is the exact opposite. In marked contrast to the gods of human imagination, the Christian God is not self-centred, not a taker at all, but a giver, and He thoroughly despises the idea of being untouchable. From the very beginning, from before the beginning, God is not indifferent towards the human race or indecisive about its future. He has staggering plans for us. Indeed, the Christian God is preoccupied with us and our welfare, and determined to bless us with life and fullness and glory. The Christian vision of God is of a God who is eager to know us, eager to cross the infinite chasm between the Creator and the creature, and eager to stoop down us and lift us up so that we can share in everything that He is and does. Such a vision of God is unique.

The Christian God is interested in relationship with us, and not just relationship, but union, and not just union, but such a union that everything He is and has - all glory and fullness, all joy and beauty and unbridled life - is to be shared with us and to become as much ours as it is His. The plan from the beginning, in the Christian vision, is that God would give Himself to us, and nothing less, so that we could be filled to overflowing with the divine life.

Part of what John means when he tells us that Jesus Christ is the Word of God is that there has never been a moment in all eternity when God wanted to be without us. The man Jesus, the incarnate Son, is not an afterthought or an afterword. Jesus, the incarnate Son, the humanity of God, is the eternal foreword. The relationship between God and humanity that was hammered out in Jesus Christ is not a second plan: This relationship, this union between God and humanity in Christ, is the eternal plan of God, which precedes creation itself. God has always purposed to become flesh. This is His eternal Word, spoken out of His being and character as the God who loves and who is determined to bless us beyond all we can think or ask.

Behind this vision of God stooping to enter into relationship, into union, with human beings in order to bless us, is the fact that God is Father, Son and Spirit. The Bible tells us that the Father loves the Son and that the Son loves the Father and that they share all things in the love and unchained fellowship of the Spirit. Nothing that could be said about God is more fundamental than this mutual love and this fellowship. God exists as Father, Son and Spirit in a rich and glorious and overflowing fellowship of acceptance and delight and passion and love. The dream of human existence begins right here in the unstifled fellowship and togetherness of the Father, Son and Spirit.

Everything else to be said about God is a variation on this theme, a description of this relationship of Father, Son and Spirit. When we talk about the love of God, we are talking about the relationship of the Father, Son and Spirit. When we talk about the holiness of God, we are trying to describe the wholeness and purity and integrity, the beauty, of the fellowship of the Trinity. When we talk about the righteousness of God, we are talking about the sheer rightness of their relationship. When we talk about the fullness of God or the blessedness of God, we are talking about the unbridled life, the irrepressible joy and unspeakable goodness of the Father, Son and Spirit.

What was God's reaction when Adam fell into sin? What did God do when the human race and creation were plunged into ruin and began lapsing into nothingness? Did God throw up His hands and walk away, disgusted? Did He say to Himself, "I knew they would do this, they deserve to perish, let them get what they deserve"? Did God explode with anger at Adam and Eve for the audacity of disobedience to Him? Did He threaten vengeance? Did His blood begin to boil with plans of punishment and retribution? No. The Fall of Adam and Eve was met by the eternal Word of God. The disaster of Adam's sin, the chaos and misery, the brokenness and bondage of Adam's rebellion were met with an immediate and stout and intolerable divine "No! I did not create you to perish. I did not create you to flounder in misery, to live in such appalling pain and brokenness and heartache and destitution. I created you for life, to share in My life and glory, to participate in the fullness and joy, the free-flowing fel­lowship and goodness and wholeness that I share with My Son and Spirit. And I will have it no other way. It will be so.”[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


[FONT=&quot][/FONT] J Baxter Kruger- Jesus and the Undoing of Adam
 
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ynnebbenny

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I only read the first post and am only responding to that.
I love the way you write, your broken honesty, and self analysis.
While I dont have the same story, I can identify with many of your feelings.
What I am doing to cope is giving in an area of my own need. I think of the widow in the bible who gave a penny in the offering. She gave out of her need.
I now do two days voluntry work at the Salvos, been friends to the homeless. I talk with them, pray with them, listen to them, cook for them, etc.
Every day on the way there, the devil tells me I am wasting my time, and achiving nothing, and yet every time I come home from my time there, I feel so blessed.
Who did Jesus hang out with? Quite possibly, you are looking in the wrong areas for fulfillment.
I dont know, but its just a thought.
In many ways you are in a better state than those who just fit into mainstream Christianity, but never question what or why about thier lives. At least you are questioning.

You're allright in my eyes :) (Not that that should mean much)

Regards Benny

Edit : We are saved by grace to then do works. You dont often hear the second bit preached.
Read this verse, well it helps me anyway.....
Matthew 25:31-46 (New International Version)

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
 
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razzelflabben

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That is precisely the problem -- I DO believe in his saving power and his extended, bountiful forgiveness (grace). Why is it a problem? Because for all practical intents and purposes, it seems to be ineffectual at producing change in me.

The proof is in the pudding... It's an old adage that means that you'll know whether something is valid or real based on the end result. You can question a cook all you want, but in the end, if it's good food, it's good food. You take a taste and if it tastes great, that's the reality.

Well here I am reading all this stuff in the Bible, reading it more than most of my other Christian friends have done even though they had more than twice the time being a Christian as me. I came to have an understanding of the Bible that helped me to encourage and even instruct, at times, believers of a much longer-held faith.

Now people often respond by saying, "well all this head knowledge isn't where it's at, it's gotta be a reality in your heart." OK, so, I shouldn't study the Bible or read it carefully? I've done a variety of different study methods, including the "devotional" style, where you just sort of read it and let it "soak in," supposedly. I found that method a bit dry, since it lacked the depth of looking deeper into the Word.

So what's this "head knowledge" versus "heart knowledge" issue? Is it about really believing or not? If that's the issue, than yes, I really believed it as much as I knew how and could. I believe that if I didn't "really" believe it before, there is no way for me to ever know whether I can "really" believe it in the future. How "really" is "really?" Like how "really" do I need to get to qualify?

Letting go and letting God some say... as I said before, tried that method, didn't go anywhere for me. And no, I didn't try it for a few days or weeks and then say, "nope, I'm not magically changed, I give up." I gave genuine, heart-felt efforts to doing a variety of different things, including a genuine attempt to just "do nothing" and wait on God.

That's where the problem is... the forgiveness hasn't removed my self-doubt, self-judgment, and guilt. The grace of God hasn't made me feel "free" in any sense. I felt that way for a VERY brief time at first, but it was so fleeting that worldly things have given me a longer-lasting "high."
when I read your posts, I see this mechanical nature to the relationship you seems to strive for. But relationships aren't mechanical in nature, they flow, they move, they live. You are missing the living part of our relationship with God it seems...

If God's Word isn't powerful enough to see me through these times, what am I to conclude? That I'm "doing it wrong?" I tried doing and even NOT doing it every way I knew how, and then tried waiting to see if God was breaking me to mold me anew... nothing. God's Word should be ultimately powerful, more so than any self-doubts of mine. If I have to "keep fighting" them like this, than God's Word is doing a worse job than just doing it some worldly way, because I feel better when I'm not constantly reading it.

That's the pudding for me. The proof is there, in the reality that I experience. In the reality of the walk that I tried to walk by faith and not by sight. It seems that walking by faith was more stressful, less enjoyable, more guilt-ridden than walking by sight.[/quote]
 
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The issue I'm going to ask you about is neither simple nor easy. It's not short, either.

Let me start at the beginning. I came into a knowledge of the Lord at around age 18. I do not believe in particular "salvation" dates, but just know approximately the time when the Lord began his saving work on me. I see salvation as a movement of the Holy Spirit, bringing me into a knowledge of his Son and drawing me into a relationship with Him. I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three but one, an eternally existing god who created all things and is in all things, and through which all things have their substance. I believe he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-sovereign.

After coming to this faith, I attended a variety of churches. I had experience with what I would call a very legalistic "fundamentalist Baptist" church. Forgive me if that offends. They demanded a great deal of control over congregants, banning things such as shorts on women, music with a beat, and going to the movie theater. I then attended a church that was highly charismatic, then a more mainstream Baptist church, then an Evangelical Presbyterian church. I became a member first at this church.

I attended college and met numerous Christian friends. I read through the Bible numerous times, became quite an amateur "Bible scholar," and participated in numerous debates, prayer groups, college Christian groups, and praise groups. I had a pretty well-rounded experience of a variety of different ways to worship God and to commune with him. Years passed. I got married, graduated college, and started working full-time as a teacher.

I struggled with a variety of issues, nothing overly serious. I often debated and tried to sway people back to the faith if they left, and I tried to learn when debate wasn't in order and simply cared for a friend. A leader of a church group once said to me, "You read and study the Bible more than anyone else I know."

Despite all of that, I have to admit that I was never content with my life. I always felt like I was screwing up. I beat myself up over even the smallest mistakes, though by far I'm not a perfectionist. I can't seem to let go of any big mistakes I've made. I never feel like I pray enough, I never feel that I'm pure enough, I never feel that I'm living to the standard I could and should be. I always feel judged by the people around me and by myself, and by God, no matter what I read to try to convince me otherwise. Sometimes, I feel like a fake living a phony lifestyle, pretending to be something I'm not.

Countless times I've "come to the cross," countless times I've gone through the "year to put guilt away." I've done a variety of things, gone to retreats, talked to pastors and elders, prayed, begged for forgiveness for a variety of things, yet I can't shake the feeling that I'm a fake, a failure, a bad person. I feel like everyone in my life is better than me, and that I don't deserve to happy, and that's why I never can be. I try to not think about it, I try to just focus on other things, but the feelings and the sensations remain.

I have so many desires that I can't shake, things the Bible would call carnal. I seem to live only for myself, and can't understand why I can't be different. Years of trying hard, years of letting go and letting God, years of trying to find a balance between the two, years of prayer, years of fellowship, and through it all nothing seems to change.

I feel like I can't play the part anymore, and pretend to be something I'm not. The Bible seems so completely empty to me, prayer couldn't be more worthless in my eyes. I've never really felt that God had done anything miraculously or even special or caring for me, that my life is just the product of my circumstances.

I came to a new church over two years ago. I live in Japan and became a member at a nearly all-Japanese church. I felt like I finally found a bit of a home... there were a lot of things that bothered me about the church, but I felt the fellowship was awesome and that this place could finally be a place where I could start to feel like I belong somewhere and to something. We had cell groups that we were very active with.

In time, it became obvious... the church was all about activities and not relationships, and that no one really ever talked to me. Despite my extensive ability to use Japanese in a variety of circumstances and to make jokes and to have fun using the language, people just weren't interested in me and didn't seem to care. After time, the church leaders decided to isolate all the non-Japanese into a separate cell group, composed of about 3-5 regular people, less if one person didn't show up. We had few activities, and did very little compared to our previous cell groups (all Japanese now). It seemed like we were being shoved aside. Sometimes, even when we only had one activity a week (versus the 4-5, or even 6 for the other groups), they would cancel it or cut it short. The only guy I thought that might have cared about me, I realized that he felt sorry for me and thought I needed a friend and pretended to be my friend, but he couldn't maintain the facade for long.

I'm married and had numerous friends in the US, I made a few friends here in Japan. I don't feel like I'm a needy or overly sad person. I kept my feelings of inferiority and discontent to myself, smiled a lot, joked a lot, and tried to be real and let people know about me little-by-little, as long as I felt the relationship was deep enough for it. I feel like I have a lot to offer people relationship wise, and that I can be a great friend.

So, I told the church that our situation was bad, it wasn't appropriate, and that we should be put back into regular cell groups. After asking me to wait for a month, they still said they hadn't decided. I waited another month, still, they said, "We don't know yet." I learned that they didn't really take any time to discuss, that they were "busy" with other things for those two months. Finally I was told, "OK, you can join a regular cell group." Next week, no, that's not true anymore. I said they have one week to make a decision... After a week, they said, "we feel your current place is best." Basically, "goodbye." I left.

This was sort of my last real attempt to feel real, to feel "good" about living and serving in God's grace. I tried to justify and say that this was God's way of helping me be sympathetic to people in this situation in the future, but in reality, I didn't feel that way. It seemed that I could just never feel at home, never feel like part of the family. I could never feel happy about who I am, not even in the blood of Christ's sacrifice.

I read and read the Bible, but it didn't give me any comfort. Praying seemed empty and pointless. Months have turned into years, nothing seems to "fix" this. I wait for God to make a move, I try to make my own move, I try to see a purpose or meaning in the people around me... Nothing.

So I attend church less now, I occupy myself with other hobbies and interests. I don't think much about God, or the Bible. I don't pray anymore, I don't read the Bible, and when I do attend church, I apathetically mouth the words to a few songs, and listen attentively to the sermon hoping that it ends a little early today. I don't give anything to the church because I just don't feel like it.

I haven't posted here in months, but long-timers here on these boards will know me. They'll know how fervently I fought the good fight of faith, how I tried to encourage and help others, how I crafted careful arguments defending key elements of the faith, and how I enjoyed good conversation about God and his truths.

So what now? I wait eagerly, hoping God will make good on his promise to go after the lost sheep. Many people wrongly believe that the story of the 1 sheep and the 99 is a story about bringing in new believers, but they fail to see that the sheep are already in God's fold, and the the wandering sheep is not an unbeliever but a believer who has strayed away from the shepherd. They also fail to see how God goes out and GETS the sheep, and brings it back... The sheep doesn't eventually wander back to the fold with a little encouraging words... The Shepherd goes after the sheep, uses his staff to drag the sheep by his neck back into the fold. If small enough, he'd lift the sheep up and carry it back. If necessary, he'd break the legs of a sheep that wandered too many times.

So here I am... I feel like I've been broken, but it doesn't seem to have helped at all. I don't feel like I've been brought back, I tried to get myself brought back, with no success.

So what now? When nothing seems enough, do I give up? Do I continue pretending to be something I am not? Do I endlessly wait more years for something I've never had, and have no current hope to have? Do I continue to believe on faith the things that have never seemingly been true for me? Where is the peace of God that surpasses all understanding? Where is the voice of my Shepherd? Where is the mother hen to wrap me in her wings? Where is the Father to love me and care for me, to guide me and lift me up? Where is the Holy Spirit inside me to empower me?

Now I'm just living my life, unable to tell my wife about the extent of my feelings. I'm living honestly, and when I stumble, I don't feel so bad about myself. I don't judge my actions all the time, and the surrounding judgment from others seems to fade slowly and surely. I feel free, and I start to feel like I can be happy. Am I being seduced by the cares of this world? Or am I being freed from the chains that I brought upon myself?

Once upon a time I felt freed by God's truths. But that is the very thing that came to feel like my prison. And now escaping is the only thing that seems to bring me light and grant me peace. Why do I feel so peaceful doing something that should be so wrong?

When nothing seems enough, what do I do? What else is there to do now but to give up? The years of trying have left me worse off, the years of praying for an answer have left me without a hope. If this God that we profess exists as he says he does, shouldn't he be here by now? Is he leaving me to wallow in my own self-loathing and emptiness? Why would he do such a thing, and for what purpose?

I'm so open and willing to be carried back to the sheepfold, but I'm still lost out in the rocks somewhere, and I feel all the happier for it.

Brother, we all go through lonliness at times but hang on and finish the race don't rely on feelings, only in God's word. You say you have hobbies...is there anything that you could do with the hobby that might be of some service to God....Example: A lady I know is too shy to visit but loves to knit..... she and a couple other ladies are knitting prayer shawls to give to nursing home patients....maybe you could make some friends that share the same hobbie interests and make things to give to the needy. There are a lot of lonely elderly people that would love a visit with a neat doodad and a kind word. And since you know the language you share Jesus with them. Why can't you talk to your wife?
 
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Elijah2

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I think you've read my post, but perhaps you didn't see one thing I was trying to communicate very clearly. I did have what I believed was a genuine conversion of the Holy Spirit. I tried several times to "make sure" I did, because people like you often emphasize this idea of "head belief but no heart belief," so just to be safe and secure, I tried several times to make certain of my salvation.

If I haven't "really believed" by now, then I would have to say that "really believing" is too ambiguous and confusing for anyone to ever be sure of. The Bible says that it was written (part of it at least) so that we may KNOW that we have eternal life, not think or believe it or want.

So, should I go back to God and this time "really, really, really, really believe" in Him, because the last time wasn't "really" enough?



My dear brother, the 4 x 4 is about to come out!

Are you really listening?

If you had a genuine conversion, then why are you struggling with all of this?

What did you do that caused you to fall off the track?

There is no measuring stick to test if you are “for sure” that you are, because if you have been “SEDUCED” and “DECEIVED”, then how would you know?

There is no test of making certain for your salvation, because salvation is a Gift from our Lord Jesus Christ to you, and if you were to walk out of the door of your church, you will still be saved, but wouldn’t mean that you have “eternal life”. Salvation is a GIFT!

For, you to be running around in this quandary is because you have done something to bring this upon yourself. It’s what we all call “self-inflicted”.

You have been a Christian long enough to no who you are and who are you in our Lord Jesus Christ, but it appears that in you walk you never found the answers to those questions.

HEART is the beginning of transformation and renewed, not brain manipulated actions. HEART is were the abundant river of life flows from, and it all comes out of our mouths in what we say and causes our actions. Agape love can only be expressed by HEART, and WORDS are lost if it’s not from our HEARTS.

When you believe in your HEART that you believe that our Lord Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, died on the cross for your sins, rose again, and now sits on the right hand side of our Heavenly Father, then you are saved. Did you ever believe those things in you heart when you were saved?

Mate, do you feel like the Children of Israel wandering around in a desert, searching and finding nothing?

Yes, you have to get back with our Lord Jesus Christ, and this time give your heart to HIM, and not make religion all mechanical and live a life like a robot.

Tell me my dear brother; what are your views about the supernatural realm?

Have you ever walked into another religion's shrine, being nosy, paying your respects to their requests by removing your shoes and obeying their instructions of those religious leaders who were leading and guiding, such as a tour or just an interest?

Heart knowledge and understanding of the "earthly and heavenly things" is the answer to your "double-mindedness".

I posted to large answers to your questions and you made no comment to either of them.

Now how about you putting in a bit of time here and start sharing why you are like this, and not expect some "quick fix". You are the problem, and you are the only one who can fix it.

You need to go back to your first step in becoming "born again".

Can you share that, and share what you felt when you were "born again"?

Blessings!:)
 
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Zeena

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2 Corinthians 12:9-10
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

It is good that you've owned your weakness's brother, but you must now look to Christ to fulfill you.

John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 13:3-38
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

John 14:31
But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

John 20:21
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

1 John 2:1-6
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Colossians 2:6-15
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

No more doing precious Saint?
Abide in Christ, and His Light and Life will be for you Light and Life, amen.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 8:2-4
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
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ArcticFox

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If you had a genuine conversion, then why are you struggling with all of this?

That's the question. The old "you gotta REALLY do it" thing is ... just that, old. No more "really, really, really believe" stuff please.

What did you do that caused you to fall off the track?

I've long considered that option and found no significant answer. If God wanted to honor my quest for an answer, he could certainly give me one.

There is no test of making certain for your salvation, because salvation is a Gift from our Lord Jesus Christ to you, and if you were to walk out of the door of your church, you will still be saved, but wouldn’t mean that you have “eternal life”. Salvation is a GIFT!

So we are "saved" sometimes but don't have eternal life? I'm not sure I follow this doctrinal viewpoint.

For, you to be running around in this quandary is because you have done something to bring this upon yourself. It’s what we all call “self-inflicted”.

... let me guess... I sinned, and this is punishment? :doh::doh:

You have been a Christian long enough to no who you are and who are you in our Lord Jesus Christ, but it appears that in you walk you never found the answers to those questions.

I'm not sure that's true. I think I found the "answers," but found that the answers seemed incorrect or contrary to the reality I experience.

HEART is the beginning of transformation and renewed, not brain manipulated actions. HEART is were the abundant river of life flows from, and it all comes out of our mouths in what we say and causes our actions. Agape love can only be expressed by HEART, and WORDS are lost if it’s not from our HEARTS.

More "heart knowledge not head knowledge" hair splitting :doh:?

When you believe in your HEART that you believe that our Lord Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, died on the cross for your sins, rose again, and now sits on the right hand side of our Heavenly Father, then you are saved. Did you ever believe those things in you heart when you were saved?

I have clearly stated these things. Did you not read them?

Yes, you have to get back with our Lord Jesus Christ, and this time give your heart to HIM, and not make religion all mechanical and live a life like a robot.

it's surprising that no matter how clear I am, no matter how much I repeat it, there are still people who are so vain and shallow as to resort to "do it for REAL this time!"

Have you ever walked into another religion's shrine, being nosy, paying your respects to their requests by removing your shoes and obeying their instructions of those religious leaders who were leading and guiding, such as a tour or just an interest?

It sounds like you have some deep-seated issues that stem from a need to see spiritual powers, demons, and curses in everything. I'm sorry, but I don't share these beliefs. I wrote more below about them.

I posted to large answers to your questions and you made no comment to either of them.

If you posted what you believe were answers to my problems/questions, I either responded in a way you didn't like, or I didn't consider them answers. Are you referring to your references to dark occult practices that you believe I must be part of? Are you referring to your suggestions that some curse or demon spirit has possessed me through a martial art? EVEN IF I participated in some of the things you mentioned, which I haven't, I still know what the Bible teaches and I don't share that belief. I have done numerous studies on the subject, and find it extremely unbiblical. You may disagree and call it "head knowledge" or "scholastic deception" or however you write it off, but the answer is no, I don't believe that and no I won't go that route. I cannot and will not do what I believe is false religion.

Now how about you putting in a bit of time here and start sharing why you are like this, and not expect some "quick fix". You are the problem, and you are the only one who can fix it.

I'm amazed at you... I gave a long, lengthy explanation of how I feel and why I think I feel that way, poured my heart out honestly, and you say I should "start sharing why I feel like this?" Go back and read my post.

Elijah I appreciate your efforts but I have to believe that you are looking for a canned solution to a much deeper issue. You have some key beliefs that I studied and evaluated and absolutely do not share. These issues may keep us from having a meaningful discussion. I don't want this to be an argument over doctrine, but if you are going to insist that a demonic spirit has possessed me then our conversation will be fruitless.
 
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Elijah2

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Elijah I appreciate your efforts but I have to believe that you are looking for a canned solution to a much deeper issue.
Mate, you only want to believe what you want to believer. There is nothing canned about my solution or anything.

I now throw my 4 x 4 into the bin.

You have some key beliefs that I studied and evaluated and absolutely do not share.
Mate, you can study and evaluate as much as you like, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, you are the problem.

These issues may keep us from having a meaningful discussion.
If you want a meaningful discussion, then approach your life one item at a time, and not a multitude of duck-shoving.

I don't want this to be an argument over doctrine,
You don't argue on doctrine on a Christian Advice forum.

but if you are going to insist that a demonic spirit has possessed me then our conversation will be fruitless.
Who mentioned anything about demonic spirit or possession, but it's obvious you have no knowledge or understanding of the supernatural realm.

Sorry, mate all your study and evaluation is to no avail.

Take care, and may our Lord Jesus Christ give you the answers to your studies and evaluations.

Blessings!
 
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Ainur

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I know you said that you've had your load of books already.
Actually, no book can create real transformation in a life. Only God can. But he works by means, and one of his tools are gifted writers.

This is the book that helped me to find contentment in a Christian life I dreaded. John Piper says it's not wrong to seek joy in this life. This search leads us to God. Another thing I learned is that feelings are not worthless, like so many Christians say - they DO have their place and importance. Piper shows this with maestry.

It can be download for free in this link: "When I Don't Desire God: How to Fight for Joy".

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/OnlineBooks/ByTitle/1600_When_I_Dont_Desire_God/

What do you do when you discover that you're not satisfied in God the way he wants you to be? Joy is more than an afterthought of the Christian life; it is the sustaining fruit of a relationship with God.
With a radical passion for Christ's glory, John Piper helps you find the joy God wants you to have.

I've been through (and still am going through, in way) where you are. Praying for you, brother.
 
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Ange27

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Arctic Fox … let me just be clear on this… you do not wish to be referred to any books or Christian literature as you have read many of them and you feel they will only provide you with the same type of teachings that have failed to answer your questions or put the fire back under your faith…

You do not wish for anyone to examine your heart … as you feel that you have clearly explained your position on this – which is you really did believe in Christ’s love for you and that he died to save you…

You feel the “stuff” you are reading in the bible is empty and after 10 years of reading and re-reading scripture the words are no longer alive to you… which really does not leave room for a bible verse to be quoted to you for encouragement…

You have prayed and prayed and prayed but your prayer is fruitless…. So to encourage you to pray about your situation is pointless…

I have to be honest …. I’m really not sure why you have posted here... are you not aware that we are merely human beings? Christians on the very same road as you…
You eliminate all avenues of the help that we can offer you… the above things are the limitations of our human offerings…. Yes we can say to you that we have walked where you are – many of us have. I personally can relate to sooo much of your frustrations – Even Jesus cried out ‘Father why have you forsaken me’ in his darkest time … but the things that brought us back from those times – you have closed your heart and mind off too… because you feel you have exhausted them…

The difference between a successful business man and a failed businessman is that the successful businessman probably failed 20 times before he made it … he probably knocked on the same door over and over and over and over again before it opened… the failed businessman gave up at some point along the road..
Don’t ask at what point should one realize that the door just isn’t going to open…. Because that point does not exist in the heart of a Christian who ‘really’ believes… and that is simply because he ‘really’ believes…..
 
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razzelflabben

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Arctic Fox … let me just be clear on this… you do not wish to be referred to any books or Christian literature as you have read many of them and you feel they will only provide you with the same type of teachings that have failed to answer your questions or put the fire back under your faith…

You do not wish for anyone to examine your heart … as you feel that you have clearly explained your position on this – which is you really did believe in Christ’s love for you and that he died to save you…

You feel the “stuff” you are reading in the bible is empty and after 10 years of reading and re-reading scripture the words are no longer alive to you… which really does not leave room for a bible verse to be quoted to you for encouragement…

You have prayed and prayed and prayed but your prayer is fruitless…. So to encourage you to pray about your situation is pointless…

I have to be honest …. I’m really not sure why you have posted here... are you not aware that we are merely human beings? Christians on the very same road as you…
You eliminate all avenues of the help that we can offer you… the above things are the limitations of our human offerings…. Yes we can say to you that we have walked where you are – many of us have. I personally can relate to sooo much of your frustrations – Even Jesus cried out ‘Father why have you forsaken me’ in his darkest time … but the things that brought us back from those times – you have closed your heart and mind off too… because you feel you have exhausted them…

The difference between a successful business man and a failed businessman is that the successful businessman probably failed 20 times before he made it … he probably knocked on the same door over and over and over and over again before it opened… the failed businessman gave up at some point along the road..
Don’t ask at what point should one realize that the door just isn’t going to open…. Because that point does not exist in the heart of a Christian who ‘really’ believes… and that is simply because he ‘really’ believes…..
I might get in trouble for posting this, but here goes anyway, I think that he posts because he is seeking, not because he expects answers....

did that break some forum rule?
 
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