When is it gonna be enough?

[KarateCowboy]

The general Judeo Christian expectation has changed, the western world, clearly in the US at least, is loosing it's moral foundation.

Furthermore the guns that were given to your Dad were given in the context of protection of a nation against external aggressors. The people who had the guns were all on the same team looking to defend themselves against a common adversary.

Switzerland with it's high gun ownership falls within this category and they don't have school shootings for a similar reason.

In this world of relativism the enemy is defined differently and may well be our neighbour. There is little moral foundation to temper the thoughts of one who is loosing the plot and there is less community spirit to aid with helping the disaffected person and/or protecting the community against the issue.

So these things and perhaps a few more have changed and need to change back in order for the society to have a chance at being society in which free firearm use might be considered safe.

But this is a huge ask for a culture that has lost its way and not one that is going to happen overnight, if ever. Changing peoples hearts is difficult enough for God, what hope do mere humans have?

So the most obvious fix, if only temporarily, would seem to be lowering the catastrophic consequence of the hazard posed by free gun ownership to that which will result in a lower risk while society works out how to lower the likelihood of things going wrong in the first place.

This is definitely the best response I've seen yet. I've posted the question many times. Usually a whole lot of dodging and hemming and hawing. I'm not convinced you're right, I have to consider it, but thank you very very much for a worthy reply.

 

[Invalidusername]

This is what people do what they can’t offer a valid argument—they resort to insult. Until the industrial revolution most families worked out of their homes and the parents shared responsibility for raising and educating the children.

I did not resort to insult. I simply stated that you don't seem to know that there's innate differences between male and female and one of the candidates are better suited to child rearing. Sorry you don't see that and sorry it makes me lose all respect for you if you can't see that.

And that's a lie. Men were always the wage earners/food providers and women always reared children... up to maybe the last 100 years that changed.

 

[dogs4thewin]

looking at the actual CDC chart
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus16.pdf#019

you'll see heart disease as first, cancer as second

you'll also learn 30% of the heart disease deaths occur in those age 65 and older

heart disease and cancer are treatable
getting shot and killed at school, not treatable

my mom has had cancer TWICE and she's still alive
a close friend had colon cancer, and he was treated years ago and still alive
sure not everyone survives heart disease and cancer but there are treatments and better one come out everyday

a neighbor has brain cancer and he had an experimental treatment, he still has the cancer but the treatment helped and he's in his 70's now and still alive 5 yrs after diagnosis

people aren't up in arms about cancer and heart disease because money goes to fighting those two leading causes of death

education and awareness is even in the elementary schools about exercise and eating healthy

but not enough is being done to control the out of control school and mass shootings in the U.S.

I know, but the particular link counted abortion as a cause of death, so therefore heart disease and cancer were numbers two and three respectfully. You can also be shot a live. Being shot is NOT a death sentence. Gun deaths just like ( most) cancer and heart disease that happen in the younger years are the result of culture and behavior. I could have a loaded chopper (AK-47) on this desk and if it stayed on the desk for 100 years it still would not shoot a darn thing. I could have a pencil and if used in a particular way it could kill you. Moreover, in the case at issue ( the most recent shooting the gun actually WAS illegal, In ADDITION to the shooter himself being underage to purchase it even if it was.. It is interesting that few, if any of the recent school shootings were committed by people who were legally permitted to have the gun.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

there are solutions already for the many other higher causes of death such as don't smoke, eat healthy, exercise, take your meds if you need them, etc

ooops....
Growing EVERY YEAR, cause of death , probably highest cause of death in the usa , maybe worldwide, today.

Yes, the surprise is it is still listed on the cdc and ama and fda and other government sites. And also on health awareness sites.
No one mentioned it here yet, even after some or many searches.

Just like the massive cover up , so massive no one apparently did the simple honest search someone mentioned in the last week on a thread.

search terms> high school shootings medicine
or > mass shootings medicine
etc pick your own terms

Why do you(pl) not want to know ? (anyone )
Simple.....
it is outside the realm of possible answers.....
it is not acceptable within normal (not healthy, but average) lives.
"you can't bear to hear the truth" - it is ,
as Jesus' disciples who walked away from Him said, "too difficult"

 

[Anguspure]

Plenty of people are. There are MANY more responsible gun owners than not and for those who are not by the way there are ALREADY criminal charges to file.
As for we are going to die of something while we ALL know this is true that was not really my point. My point was that there are other things that kill people and yet people do not ( in general) seem to be NEARLY as up in arms about that as they are about the so far LESS than 4,500 people that have been murdered by gun so far this year.

You seem to think a small number makes it all right. People are up in arms about abortion and other forms of murder it is just that those other ways are not in the spotlight at the moment. The other non-intentional means of dying are something that humanity in general (at least the part that isn't killing one another intentionally) has been working on for hundreds of years.
Surely though you can see the difference between a death intentionally caused by another person, and an accidental or health based death.

 

[Anguspure]

Firearms VERY rarely kill people without some action by a person. Every once in a BLUE moon there will be a truly accidental discharge where it is something with THAT PARTICULAR gun that basically causes it to fire itself, but those are so rare that is nowhere NEAR an argument because for one thing an accidental discharge could happen to ANYONE from the person who has never shot before to the best trained sharp shooter.

What say I loose the plot and want to "kill them all": Lets look at the weapons available.
If I only have my fists I might injure one or 2 people but it is unlikely to be terribly serious, perhaps one medical case.
If I have a piece of 4x2 I could perhaps put 1 person in hospital or even kill them before I was stopped.
If I had a knife I could kill one person and maybe injure a few more seriously.
If I have a rifle I could kill quite a few people, and with an automatic weapon wow now I can really kill them all.
So in a society where there is an increasing number of people ready to "kill them all", as evidenced by the weekly killing sprees itwould be prudent to restrict access to the weapons that result in a large number of casualties.
Mind you the same moral failing goes across the board and the bottom line is that nobody really gives a damn about the people who are going to get shot dead next week.

 

[Anguspure]

or we could change our CULTURE ( which is actually probably easier than trying to change the second amendment that has been in place over 200 years. ONE amendment has been repealed and that one did not EVEN last TWENTY years, so that tells you how hard it is and again frankly there are MANY more good guys with guns than bad guns with guns.

Who are you trying to kid? All of history teaches us that culture only changes in one direction and that direction leads to death. It is only following major revolutionary changes that culture rebuilds on a better foundation for a time.

Another thing, it doesn't seem to be the "bad guys with guns" that are causing the problem in your country. Rather it is the good guys who have a screw loose, who need a whole lot of Love and community support, who then get given a weapon that they can use to extend the catastrophy that is happening in thier mind to the rest of the world.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Who are you trying to kid? All of history teaches us that culture only changes in one direction and that direction leads to death. It is only following major revolutionary changes that culture rebuilds on a better foundation for a time.

Another thing, it doesn't seem to be the "bad guys with guns" that are causing the problem in your country. Rather it is the good guys who have a screw loose, who need a whole lot of Love and community support, who then get given a weapon that they can use to extend the catastrophy that is happening in thier mind to the rest of the world.

But the people who are shooting for the most part are NOT the people who lawfully have guns. In fact, when they were trying to raise the age to purchase to 21, yet only ONE of the recent shooters was at least 21. The latest shooting was actually committed by a sawed off shotgun which is illegal no matter who you are. Point being that the people who can be trusted with guns are not the ones at issue and should not be punished for the few that cannot handle things.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You seem to think a small number makes it all right. People are up in arms about abortion and other forms of murder it is just that those other ways are not in the spotlight at the moment. The other non-intentional means of dying are something that humanity in general (at least the part that isn't killing one another intentionally) has been working on for hundreds of years.
Surely though you can see the difference between a death intentionally caused by another person, and an accidental or health based death.

Where did I say it was right?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But the people who are shooting for the most part are NOT the people who lawfully have guns. In fact, when they were trying to raise the age to purchase to 21, yet only ONE of the recent shooters was at least 21. The latest shooting was actually committed by a sawed off shotgun which is illegal no matter who you are. Point being that the people who can be trusted with guns are not the ones at issue and should not be punished for the few that cannot handle things.

LIkewise, (yes) , all the shootings , the mass shootings and the school shootings,
were by people involved with medicine/drugs/ mind altering ones. (usually LEGAL ones) (i.e. FAILED treatment methods! )

 

[dogs4thewin]

LIkewise, (yes) , all the shootings , the mass shootings and the school shootings,
were by people involved with medicine/drugs/ mind altering ones. (usually LEGAL ones) (i.e. FAILED treatment methods! )

but what a lot of people do not realize is that if it IS a case where the person is on medication like that ( depending on the medication and how bad the issue is they are not legally permitted to have guns ( particularly if they spent time in inpatient treatment. By good guys and bad guys I do not just mean criminals rather any one who would be legally forbidden from carrying/having a gun ( which usually includes those on the strong mental medications (especially if they have done in time in inpatient treatment and especially if that inpatient treatment was involuntary.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

but what a lot of people do not realize is that if it IS a case where the person is on medication like that ( depending on the medication and how bad the issue is they are not legally permitted to have guns ( particularly if they spent time in inpatient treatment. By good guys and bad guys I do not just mean criminals rather any one who would be legally forbidden from carrying/having a gun ( which usually includes those on the strong mental medications (especially if they have done in time in inpatient treatment and especially if that inpatient treatment was involuntary.

It doesn't matter if people understand all the details you mention -
there is a multi-billion dollar cover-up to try to prevent it being publicized that basically ALL the shooters are/were on mind altering prescribed medications. i.e. A SIDE EFFECT of those medications is both suicidal AND homocidal tendancies AND ACTIONS. over and over and over again, this was shown over the last 50 years....
and overwhelming amounts of money was spent to
distract attention to OTHER ......

and , of course, there are other, non-violent producing, ways to treat all the people, with no known negative side effects at all.
< shrugs > just not as profitable...... that's all.... that's really the only reason required ...... but there may be more evil intentions...
and even unwitting ones....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Mind you the same moral failing goes across the board and the bottom line is that nobody really gives a damn about the people who are going to get shot dead next week.

Good point, but who can listen ?

Millions, or many thousands, were killed for a lie, sent to war, never came home.....
"moral failing" top to bottom...... highest office to lowest soldier....

 

[Anguspure]

But the people who are shooting for the most part are NOT the people who lawfully have guns. In fact, when they were trying to raise the age to purchase to 21, yet only ONE of the recent shooters was at least 21. The latest shooting was actually committed by a sawed off shotgun which is illegal no matter who you are. Point being that the people who can be trusted with guns are not the ones at issue and should not be punished for the few that cannot handle things.

So how do they get a gun? It's difficult to get an illegal weapon in NZ without being a part of a group that is already watched cor such things.

 

[Anguspure]

Where did I say it was right?

You have been trying to justify a lax atitude towards fire arms safety on the grounds that other things are much worse. You appear to be saying that it is ok to ignore the problem of shootings as long as the numbers
don't get as high as other causes of death.

 

[Anguspure]

Good point, but who can listen ?

Millions, or many thousands, were killed for a lie, sent to war, never came home.....
"moral failing" top to bottom...... highest office to lowest soldier....

In my country we listened and passed more stringent fire arms safety rules to prptect the vulnerable. In this respect, in NZ, Love of people trumps freedom of weapon ownership. This move may have impacted on the rights if many but it does mean that many lives have been protected.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You have been trying to justify a lax atitude towards fire arms safety on the grounds that other things are much worse. You appear to be saying that it is ok to ignore the problem of shootings as long as the numbers
don't get as high as other causes of death.

It is not that death by gunfire is OK it is that when I compare the number of unjustified homicides by guns to the number of BOTH guns and gun owners I find that punishing the majority for a very low number of people that abuse it to be unfair.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Folks, this is an emotional topic. You need to keep it on the topic and not about each other. A clean up was done of posts earlier in the thread of some flaming. Please keep it civil.

​

 

[Anguspure]

It is not that death by gunfire is OK it is that when I compare the number of unjustified homicides by guns to the number of BOTH guns and gun owners I find that punishing the majority for a very low number of people that abuse it to be unfair.

It's not about the people who are doing, or not doing the deed. It's about valuing the lives of the people that are going to get killed next week over personal agendas.

 

[dogs4thewin]

So how do they get a gun? It's difficult to get an illegal weapon in NZ without being a part of a group that is already watched cor such things.

They will sometimes get it from the black market and sometimes from family living in the house, If the latter is the case then I believe in SOME cases the gun owner should be held liable. If the gun owner knew or reasonably should have known that the shooter was unstable and did not secure the weapon they should be held liable.