When is it gonna be enough?

[Radagast]

Kid used a sawed off shotgun, which is already illegal. Same school had a school shooting threat called in to police a couple of months ago, supposedly regarding this same kid. What exactly are you wanting?

Well, if a sawed off shotgun is already illegal, we can't make it more illegal.

Presumably the kid should have been taken into custody when he first made a threat.

 

[Invalidusername]

Very funny.

Cherry-picking:

Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position. It is a kind of fallacy of selective attention, the most common example of which is the confirmation bias.[1][2] Cherry picking may be committed intentionally or unintentionally. This fallacy is a major problem in public debate.

Let's be clear: what you are doing is a form of lying.

If I'm lying why don't you provide some evidence then?

 

[Radagast]

Let's be clear: what you are doing is a form of lying.

Not really. If you compare US states, which makes more sense, there is no correlation between gun ownership and murder rate.

 

[Invalidusername]

It's clear that its not guns that are the problem. It's our morals and culture that suppresses boys and bullies them to the point where they lose it. There is no happy school shooter. They are all miserable loners that have been bullied to the point of desperation.

 

[Anguspure]

View attachment 229096

The graph makes a wild jump from western nations (apart from Yemen) to wild 3rd world nations as if the comparison would mean anything. As @expos4ever points out there is a degree of cherry picking going on here.

 

[Invalidusername]

The graph makes a wild jump from western nations (apart from Yemen) to wild 3rd world nations as if the comparison would mean anything. As @expos4ever points out there is a degree of cherry picking going on here.

So you're saying that it's the countries that have higher murder rates is more of a correlation of 1st world vs 3rd world countries? You just unwittingly admitted that the gun ownership was not the strongest factor in murder but in the fact that it is a 1st world country vs a 3rd world country.

 

[Radagast]

On your reasoning I can hardly conceive why New Zealand with its background of fierce warrior culture that is expressed in some of the hardest gangs on the planet is not overun by gun totting criminals. Especially when we consider that we have one of the higher per-capita (hunting and sport) gun ownership stats in the western world

NZ has extremely strict gun laws, restricting both who is allowed to own a gun (self defence is not an acceptable reason to have one) and what kind of guns are allowed. Quite similar to Australian laws, actually. And, like Australia, the absence of a land border makes the import of illegal weapons easier to control.

 

[expos4ever]

The data is clear: most people who live in free nations are safer than you are.

I will back off on this claim, as my gut feeling might turn out to be wrong. Consider the following:

First, let's look at the relationship between gun laws and violence in general. It is possible to have a violent society without guns. Prime evidence of that is the former Soviet Union and its successor states such as Russia, which despite stringent gun control laws, posted murder rates from 1965-1999 that far outstripped the rest of the developed world [sources: Kates and Mauser; Kessler; Pridemore]. The killers in question did not obtain illegal firearms -- they simply employed other weapons [source: Kleck].

On the other hand, Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark, all countries with heavy gun ownership, have a history of low murder rates. According to a 2014 United Nations report, Germany's murder rate of 0.8 killings per 100,000 inhabitants was identical to Luxembourg, where the law prohibits civilian ownership of handguns and gun ownership is rare [source: UNODOC, Kates and Mauser].

 

[Invalidusername]

I will back off on this claim, as my gut feeling might turn out to be wrong. Consider the following:

First, let's look at the relationship between gun laws and violence in general. It is possible to have a violent society without guns. Prime evidence of that is the former Soviet Union and its successor states such as Russia, which despite stringent gun control laws, posted murder rates from 1965-1999 that far outstripped the rest of the developed world [sources: Kates and Mauser; Kessler; Pridemore]. The killers in question did not obtain illegal firearms -- they simply employed other weapons [source: Kleck].

On the other hand, Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark, all countries with heavy gun ownership, have a history of low murder rates. According to a 2014 United Nations report, Germany's murder rate of 0.8 killings per 100,000 inhabitants was identical to Luxembourg, where the law prohibits civilian ownership of handguns and gun ownership is rare [source: UNODOC, Kates and Mauser].

There you go. Amazing what 5 minutes of Googling/research can do? Stop making baseless claims just because the media has instilled a public panic.

 

[marineimaging]

Ok l fine. Let bank guards abd the secrest service have guns.

Per my last post, gun culture in the USA is almost the very definition of insanity.

If you have never lived it I can see why you think so up in the liberal north of the Constitution of the United States. I do agree that criminals are insane and it is those you must be referring to. Because the multitudes of honest, working class, wealthy, users, collectors, hunters and those crazy three gun enthusiasts would take as much offense to your comment as you and many of your Canadians would if we called you something similar. Let's remember this is a Christian forum. "Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." If you were see forces at work to take your God given rights away then I am sure you might find a "cause" to channel your anger through. But this has nothing to do with you. On the other hand it has everything to do with our rights as citizens of the greatest nation in the history of mankind.

 

[Micah888]

Not really. If you compare US states, which makes more sense, there is no correlation between gun ownership and murder rate.

Shouldn't there be concern about correlating murder rate with mental derangement and previous criminality?

CONCLUSIONS:

The findings suggest an association between schizophrenia and conviction for homicide. Most perpetrators with a history of mental disorder were not acutely ill or under mental healthcare at the time of the offence. Some perpetrators receive prison sentences despite having severe mental illness.

Rates of mental disorder in people convicted of homicide. National clinical survey. - PubMed - NCBI

Fewer homicides committed by strangers, more by criminal associates

• Despite the increased number of victims reported in 2015, increases were not equal across all types of homicides when considering relationship types. Relationship information is available for solved homicides for which an accused has been identified. Decades of relationship information indicates that homicides are frequently committed by someone known to the victim. In 2015, 87% of victims knew the accused involved in their death (Table 7). This proportion increased from 2014 where a reported 82% of victims knew the accused.

Homicide in Canada, 2015

 

[HisPrincess710]

If you have never lived it I can see why you think so up in the liberal north of the Constitution of the United States. I do agree that criminals are insane and it is those you must be referring to. Because the multitudes of honest, working class, wealthy, users, collectors, hunters and those crazy three gun enthusiasts would take as much offense to your comment as you and many of your Canadians would if we called you something similar. Let's remember this is a Christian forum. "Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." If you were see forces at work to take your God given rights away then I am sure you might find a "cause" to channel your anger through. But this has nothing to do with you. On the other hand it has everything to do with our rights as citizens of the greatest nation in the history of mankind.

Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.

 

[expos4ever]

God used gun violence to free this country from Britain.

And you know this how?

Let's talk about something we do know:

Return your sword to its place, for all who will take up the sword, will die by the sword

Oh, and please do bring up Luke 22 - A careful reading of that text shows that it has nothing to do with self-defence.

 

[mama2one]

x

 

[mama2one]

x

 

[Hank77]

why pick on the Canadian?

I lived in Canada 6 yrs as a child
my parents allowed me to take two buses (needed a transfer ticket) across a big city BY MYSELF to get to the ice skating rink for skating lessons, go through alleys to get home after dark, and walk to school everyday starting at age 9)

my kid is 10 now and never in a million years would we let our child do any of those in the U.S.

so were my parents nuts or was Canada safer?

I walked to school in kindergarten right here in a city in the US, all the kids did if they lived within a certain number of blocks from the school. In the little town I live in now, all the town kids walk to school.
One of the big changes I think is that people aren't as community minded as they used to be. People used to watch out for each other's kids. They paid attention to what was going on and weren't afraid to interfere. It's still the same where I live. If you see a kid doing something they shouldn't be you don't have to worry if you correct them or march their little behind home. Their parents are going to appreciate you looking after them. So many couples have to both work now that everyone is just so busy they don't take notice of things like they used to. There so many latch key kids that are on their own too much of the time with no one in the neighborhood watching.

 

[Archivist]

no, but if you impose laws on things like that ( guns) the only people hurt will be those willing to follow the law. The only thing gun laws do id make it harder for honest folks to protect themselves from criminals or in some rural areas nature.

Then why does it work in Australia?

 

[Anguspure]

So you're saying that it's the countries that have higher murder rates is more of a correlation of 1st world vs 3rd world countries? You just unwittingly admitted that the gun ownership was not the strongest factor in murder but in the fact that it is a 1st world country vs a 3rd world country.

I am saying that the dynamics between gun ownership and murder rates differ on the grounds of other factors that are not taken into account in these graphs.
Ivory Coast, for example, is a mad house, the only place in the world where I've had a machine gun pointed at my head. Of course the gun murder rates will be significantly higher, if they didn't have guns they would be using whatever comes to hand.
Whereas in Switzerland you have a very civilised, peaceful and cultured society, so it goes without saying that they are not all running around shooting each other.

 

[Anguspure]

NZ has extremely strict gun laws, restricting both who is allowed to own a gun (self defence is not an acceptable reason to have one) and what kind of guns are allowed. Quite similar to Australian laws, actually. And, like Australia, the absence of a land border makes the import of illegal weapons easier to control.

That is right, we don't buy guns to shoot people with and so the type of gun we allow will not be for the purpose of shooting people, nevertheless a great many of us have guns and other weapons for hunting game readily at hand in our houses.
If I own a licenced gun and frighten my neighbour or my wife with the sort of lunatic talk and behaviour that is apparantly acceptable in the US, I will have my fire arms licence revoked and will be required to turn in my guns.
This makes it very difficult to go on a shooting rampage at the local school.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Anguspure, post: 72682343, member: 287386"]I am saying that the dynamics between gun ownership and murder rates differ on the grounds of other factors that are not taken into account in these graphs.
Ivory Coast, for example, is a mad house, the only place in the world where I've had a machine gun pointed at my head. Of course the gun murder rates will be significantly higher, if they didn't have guns they would be using whatever comes to hand.
Whereas in Switzerland you have a very civilised, peaceful and cultured society, so it goes without saying that they are not all running around shooting each other.[/QUOTE
Yes, when people are 'badder', and when more people are on more mind drugs, there are more shootings and other crimes and killing by other means.