When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

[sovereigngrace]

Nero died 68 AD.

The end of the age came at 70 AD.

Brightness of the coming - something slightly before the actual coming, as light precedes the shining object a little.

You must understand the language used.

Not so! The biblical dynamic between “this age” and “the age to come” is repeatedly shown to be that between time and eternity, corruption and incorruption, this current heavens and earth and the new heavens and new earth.

It is real easy to piece this whole thing together. The detail that is attributed to the end of the age is exactly the same as that attributed to the last day. It is the same climactic day. It is the day when Jesus comes at the end and judges both the righteous and the wicked.

Last day

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Christ did not rebuke this understanding of the last day. In fact, it was in complete agreement with what Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The righteous are resurrected! When does this happen? When Jesus Comes. This is clear and simple!

That is not all.

Christ tells us in John 12:48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

There you have it! The same day that the righteous are raised is the same day the wicked are judged.

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes.

The end of the age

It is not just that Scripture depicts the second coming as “the last day,” it is that it labels it also as “the end of the age/world.”

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (in Matthew 13:24-30), “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed among the wheat, and went his way …Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Jesus locates “the harvest” of both the wicked and the righteous at “the end of the aion or age.” We see that in this age the good and the bad grow together. But the age to come is not so. It is not open to the wicked. This agrees with the statement of Christ in Luke 20:34-36 which shows that one has to be qualified to inherit the age to come and the new earth: one has to be “accounted worthy to obtain that aion or age. The reason is: it is only for believers. This passage shows that it is in this age that “the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” This is talking about the perfect incorruptible glorified state. The wicked on the other hand are “cast … into a furnace of fire” where “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Here we see the final separation of the righteous and the wicked including the burning of those who practice lawlessness, and reward of those who belonged to Christ. In this context, “the end of the age” obviously refers to Christ’s glorious second coming. It cannot refer to the destruction of Jerusalem, as Preterists contend, since there was no separation of the righteous from the wicked, nor no final judgment for mankind then.

The same truth is also revealed by Christ in Matthew 13:47-50, in the parable of the net: “the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world (or aion or age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

The bringing in of the “net” here relates to the angels gathering the righteous and the wicked together for judgment. This assignment is notably not executed until the net “was full.” We can see here that the wicked and righteous are drawn in at the same time. The Christ-rejecter is judged, sentenced and eternally separated from the elect of God at “the end of the age.” The outcome for the wicked drawn in by God’s great net in this parable is horrendous as they are pictured “wailing (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth” or as it is rendered in the parable of the talents: “weeping (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth.” This is the time of final judgment for the rebel against God.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ is past?

No, I said it is an ongoing event. Those in Christ pass from one body to another body, daily. The OT left Abraham's bosom at the Cross, and were taken to Paradise with Christ. Many chose not to see that, but declare their resurrected bodies, incorruptible, had to be buried by first century church all over again. No where in Scripture was the early church burying thousands of dead, again, OT church members. They did not bury themselves. They went to Paradise.

 

[trophy33]

Not so! The biblical dynamic between “this age” and “the age to come” is repeatedly shown to be that between time and eternity, corruption and incorruption, this current heavens and earth and the new heavens and new earth.

It is real easy to piece this whole thing together. The detail that is attributed to the end of the age is exactly the same as that attributed to the last day. It is the same climactic day. It is the day when Jesus comes at the end and judges both the righteous and the wicked.

Last day

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Christ did not rebuke this understanding of the last day. In fact, it was in complete agreement with what Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The righteous are resurrected! When does this happen? When Jesus Comes. This is clear and simple!

That is not all.

Christ tells us in John 12:48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

There you have it! The same day that the righteous are raised is the same day the wicked are judged.

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes.

The end of the age

It is not just that Scripture depicts the second coming as “the last day,” it is that it labels it also as “the end of the age/world.”

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (in Matthew 13:24-30), “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed among the wheat, and went his way …Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Jesus locates “the harvest” of both the wicked and the righteous at “the end of the aion or age.” We see that in this age the good and the bad grow together. But the age to come is not so. It is not open to the wicked. This agrees with the statement of Christ in Luke 20:34-36 which shows that one has to be qualified to inherit the age to come and the new earth: one has to be “accounted worthy to obtain that aion or age. The reason is: it is only for believers. This passage shows that it is in this age that “the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” This is talking about the perfect incorruptible glorified state. The wicked on the other hand are “cast … into a furnace of fire” where “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Here we see the final separation of the righteous and the wicked including the burning of those who practice lawlessness, and reward of those who belonged to Christ. In this context, “the end of the age” obviously refers to Christ’s glorious second coming. It cannot refer to the destruction of Jerusalem, as Preterists contend, since there was no separation of the righteous from the wicked, nor no final judgment for mankind then.

The same truth is also revealed by Christ in Matthew 13:47-50, in the parable of the net: “the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world (or aion or age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

The bringing in of the “net” here relates to the angels gathering the righteous and the wicked together for judgment. This assignment is notably not executed until the net “was full.” We can see here that the wicked and righteous are drawn in at the same time. The Christ-rejecter is judged, sentenced and eternally separated from the elect of God at “the end of the age.” The outcome for the wicked drawn in by God’s great net in this parable is horrendous as they are pictured “wailing (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth” or as it is rendered in the parable of the talents: “weeping (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth.” This is the time of final judgment for the rebel against God.

Sorry, I do not want to read an oversized bulk of text full of colors and editing.

Present your point simply.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Sorry, I do not want to read an oversized bulk of text full of colors and editing.

Present your point simply.

It speaks for itself and it negates your opinion.

 

[Timtofly]

Nero died 68 AD.

The end of the age came at 70 AD.

Brightness of the coming - something slightly before the actual coming, as light precedes the shining object a little.

You must understand the language used.

The end of the church age was in 70AD?

The end of the OT age was at the Cross in 30AD, 1991 years ago.

What age are you referring to? The age of Herods Temple? The age of Jerusalem? God left the Temple when the veil was torn at the Cross. The Temple was just a stone building after the Cross. The age of an OT economy ended definitely in 70AD. But the sacrifices after 30AD were meaningless. They just kept making those in charge of them richer. It was only economics.

It was not the end of the church age. The church is still here today.

 

[trophy33]

The end of the church age was in 70AD?

The end of the OT age was at the Cross in 30AD, 1991 years ago.

What age are you referring to? The age of Herods Temple? The age of Jerusalem? God left the Temple when the veil was torn at the Cross. The Temple was just a stone building after the Cross. The age of an OT economy ended definitely in 70AD. But the sacrifices after 30AD were meaningless. They just kept making those in charge of them richer. It was only economics.

It was not the end of the church age. The church is still here today.

The end of the Jewish age. The kingdom was taken from them and given to others. The last judgement of Israel was done.

Not sure what you mean by "the church age". You mean the kingdom of God?

 

[Timtofly]

The end of the Jewish age. The kingdom was taken from them and given to others. The last judgement of Israel was done.

Not sure what you mean by "the church age". You mean the kingdom of God?

There is no Jewish age.

The church age is the evangelism of the Gentiles and to those of Jacob's house equally. It is the spread of the Gospel through the whole earth. Jews are technically, just the tribe of Judah, historically. The remnant still remains throughout the church age. The remnant planted the fig tree and watched it bloom in 1948. The whole house of Jacob is once again alive today, physically. The Jews, tribe of Judah, never stopped. There was no end of an age. It was the end of the economy set up by Moses, yes, that is all.

I do not call the church the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God. That is symbolic. Jesus is pointing out the futility of earthly kingdoms. The church is the church. Those in Christ are not citizens of earth, but citizens of Paradise. Paradise is the Garden of Eden, not a kingdom. It could be a Nation. Kingdom implies man's futility to reign sinfully over other sinful men. Rome was a nation that had moved on past king and had emperors. King Herod was about king in name only, and was not even from Jacob's family. He was an Edomite, from Esau. Esau was Jacob's brother. A Nation could be made up of many tribes and kingdoms, and even other nations.

Jesus' chosen people seem to naturally associate with kingdom status, limiting themselves to earthly desires. Jesus was just speaking their language in a way they understood, without correcting their mindset.

 

[trophy33]

There is no Jewish age.

There was, but is not anymore. It was ended by the last judgement.

The name "Jewish" can be artificial, but you asked for a name. The Bible never gives it a name. I would rather say "the old earth and heavens" or simply "the old age".

 

[Timtofly]

There was, but is not anymore. It was ended by the last judgement.

The name "Jewish" can be artificial, but you asked for a name. The Bible never gives it a name. I would rather say "the old earth and heavens" or simply "the old age".

I am sure there are many Jews today who would disagree with you. The OT was an end of an age at the Cross. An age is not set by human standards. It is set by God.

 

[trophy33]

I am sure there are many Jews today who would disagree with you. The OT was an end of an age at the Cross. An age is not set by human standards. It is set by God.

It does not matter that Jews disagree. They are not a measurement of truth.

 

[BABerean2]

The whole house of Jacob is once again alive today, physically.

What did Paul say below?

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


.

 

[Timtofly]

What did Paul say below?

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

What is God declaring 1900+ years later? The fig tree has bloomed, all the branches.

Why bring up unprofitable and vain excuses against the Sovereignty of God?

 

[BABerean2]

What is God declaring 1900+ years later? The fig tree has bloomed, all the branches.

Why bring up unprofitable and vain excuses against the Sovereignty of God?

When comparing what Paul said to your interpretation, I will have to go with what Paul said every time.

Did you forget the part about Jesus cursing the fig tree?

Once again, are you promoting modern Dispensational Theology, which was brought to America about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby?

Do you know the difference between faithful "remnant", and the Baal worshippers in Romans 11:1-5?

.

 

[Timtofly]

When comparing what Paul said to your interpretation, I will have to go with what Paul said every time.

Did you forget the part about Jesus cursing the fig tree?

Once again, are you promoting modern Dispensational Theology, which was brought to America about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby?

Do you know the difference between faithful "remnant", and the Baal worshippers in Romans 11:1-5?

I am not the one applying 1st century principles as a blanket statement 1900 years later. God is bringing Israel back, not humans living in the first century.

 

[BABerean2]

I am not the one applying 1st century principles as a blanket statement 1900 years later. God is bringing Israel back, not humans living in the first century.

Which of the Israels found in Romans 9:8 are you talking about?
Are you referring to the children of the promise, or the children of the flesh?

Are you talking about the Israel found in Acts of the Apostles 2:36-42?

Are you talking about Israel found in James 1:1-3?

.

 

[Timtofly]

Which of the Israels found in Romans 9:8 are you talking about?
Are you referring to the children of the promise, or the children of the flesh?

Are you talking about the Israel found in Acts of the Apostles 2:36-42?

Are you talking about Israel found in James 1:1-3?

I am talking about living humans who have not yet physically died. There is no one resurrected from sheol until the GWT.

 

[BABerean2]

There is no one resurrected from sheol until the GWT.

How can there be a time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some and destruction for others in Revelation 11:15-18, without a bodily resurrection of the dead?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

 

[Timtofly]

How can there be a time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some and destruction for others in Revelation 11:15-18, without a bodily resurrection of the dead?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Are those in sheol God's people? Are dead people walking around today destroying each other and earth, God's people? People who choose their own way are dead in their own sins. They are not God's people. They will be destroyed, not rewarded. God's people will be rewarded. Those in sheol are still waiting to be judged. The verse does not say anything about those in sheol. It is talking about Adam's flesh and blood still alive. The church is not dead but alive. John is quoting Psalms 2.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Pretrib all the way baby. God isn't going to let His bride experience abuse by the AC. Come on man!

Where does scripture teach that? Instead, I see this:

2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

 

[Timtofly]

Where does scripture teach that? Instead, I see this:

2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

Persecution is not abuse. Getting one's head cut off is not enduring, but avoiding the mark. If you endure to the end and have the mark, how does that count as suffering persecution?