When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

[Timtofly]

Do you believe a person's soul can live in their dead body for 3 days?


Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Why not?

 

[BABerean2]

Why not?

Because it is dead, in the same way a soul cannot inhabit a dead cow, or a pack of hamburger meat...


Have you ever talked to a person who was injured in an accident and left their body for a short time?

.

 

[DavidPT]

You have taken one tiny detail out of two passages full of symbolic language and claimed they cannot be the same, because that detail is not found in both passages.

Yet, you are ignoring the common elements of both passages.

If two people witnessed the same automobile accident, do you think they would use exactly the same words to describe the accident even though they may have witnessed the accident from different angles?
In the same way, John was given a series of different visions all related to the same event.

.

What I'm trying to say is, maybe they can be part of the same event, yet not the same event. IOW, these events are chronological where one event leads to the other event.

Chronological like this?

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Followed by----

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Or like this instead?


Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Followed by----

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[BABerean2]

What I'm trying to say is, maybe they can be part of the same event, yet not the same event. IOW, these events are chronological where one event leads to the other event.

Chronological like this?

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Followed by----

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Or like this instead?


Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Followed by----

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Are both passages about the Second Coming of Christ?

.

 

[ewq1938]

What I'm trying to say is, maybe they can be part of the same event, yet not the same event. IOW, these events are chronological where one event leads to the other event.

Chronological like this?

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Followed by----

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Yes that way. Revelation 6 shows the initial reaction to the second coming. After the vials of wrath, evil spirits are sent out to deceive those people and the result is them being at Armageddon. I would put all three together like this:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes and those are his dead and living believers. The dead will be resurrected and the living will be changed and they will be judged to receive eternal life.

You are confusing that with "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished".

That shows there is a thousand years inbetween the two resurrections.

Do you agree that "the dead will be resurrected and the living will be changed and they will be judged to receive eternal life" when Christ returns? If so, how can you try to say that you think Matthew 25:31-46 occurs 1000+ years later when that passage refers to believers receiving eternal life at the same time that unbelievers are condemned and cast into the everlasting fire?

How do you interpret a passage like this:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Do you believe that Christ will return at the end of the age (Matt 24:3)? If so, then how do you interpret this passage and how do you reconcile it with your premil view?

 

[DavidPT]

Do you agree that "the dead will be resurrected and the living will be changed and they will be judged to receive eternal life" when Christ returns? If so, how can you try to say that you think Matthew 25:31-46 occurs 1000+ years later when that passage refers to believers receiving eternal life at the same time that unbelievers are condemned and cast into the everlasting fire?

How do you interpret a passage like this:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Do you believe that Christ will return at the end of the age (Matt 24:3)? If so, then how do you interpret this passage and how do you reconcile it with your premil view?

I would like to take a shot at what you inquired about in that post, since I too am Premil. As to the sheep and goats judgment, the first thing we must ask ourself, is this meaning the great white throne judgment? The 2nd thing we must ask ourself, when is the sheep and goats judgment meaning? Since the latter is the easier of the two to answer, let's answer that one first.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This makes it crystal clear as to the timing. This shouldn't even be debatable. Verse 31 tells us exactly when it is meaning. It is meaning when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him. When is that meaning? It's obviously meaning His 2nd coming to the earth bodily. He already came to the earth bodily once. He will return to this same earth bodily yet again. Verse 31 goes on to say---then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. When? Obviously, once He has come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him.

Some Premils might argue that there is a gap between when He comes and when He sits upon His throne of glory, where He then divides the sheep from the goats after this gap. The only way that might be true, the sheep and goats judgment is meaning the great white throne judgment. As for me I disagree that the sheep and goats judgment is meaning the great white throne judgment. But if I instead agreed they were meaning the same judgment, I would have to switch to Amil in that case, since Matthew 25:31-33 makes it crystal clear to me when the sheep and goats judgment is meaning.

Unlike all Amils and even some Premils, I don't take the goats to be meaning all of the wicked lost in general. I take them to mean the unprofitable servants of Christ found throughout the church. IOW, I believe the Bible teaches NOSAS, and not OSAS instead. The goats are meaning some of the following, for example.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Would any reasonable person interpret any of this, in this context, to also include atheists, satanists, witches, as some examples? Do atheists fit verse 22 and 26? Of course not.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


Do atheists, as an example, fit the profile of the ones meant in verse 44? Of course not. But I can tell you who does fit that profile. The ones in Matthew 7 that heard and comprehended these sayings of Jesus, yet did them not, as one example.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I would like to take a shot at what you inquired about in that post, since I too am Premil. As to the sheep and goats judgment, the first thing we must ask ourself, is this meaning the great white throne judgment? The 2nd thing we must ask ourself, when is the sheep and goats judgment meaning? Since the latter is the easier of the two to answer, let's answer that one first.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This makes it crystal clear as to the timing. This shouldn't even be debatable. Verse 31 tells us exactly when it is meaning. It is meaning when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him. When is that meaning? It's obviously meaning His 2nd coming to the earth bodily. He already came to the earth bodily once. He will return to this same earth bodily yet again. Verse 31 goes on to say---then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. When? Obviously, once He has come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him.

Your fellow premil ewq1938 believes that it does describe the GWTJ and does not occur at His second coming. I can't figure that out. That's a new one to me. I've never seen a premil who tries to say that Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't happen at the second coming and happens at the GWTJ, as amils believe.

Some Premils might argue that there is a gap between when He comes and when He sits upon His throne of glory, where He then divides the sheep from the goats after this gap.

You and I know that there is no indication whatsoever in the text to indicate such a thing.

The only way that might be true, the sheep and goats judgment is meaning the great white throne judgment. As for me I disagree that the sheep and goats judgment is meaning the great white throne judgment. But if I instead agreed they were meaning the same judgment, I would have to switch to Amil in that case, since Matthew 25:31-33 makes it crystal clear to me when the sheep and goats judgment is meaning.

Please tell me how the following verses can possibly not be talking about the same thing:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Unlike all Amils and even some Premils, I don't take the goats to be meaning all of the wicked lost in general. I take them to mean the unprofitable servants of Christ found throughout the church. IOW, I believe the Bible teaches NOSAS, and not OSAS instead.

So do I, but I don't see how that has anything to do with Matthew 25:31-46. I believe that passage clearly differentiates the 2 groups where all people are part of one of them. Everyone is either for Christ or against Him.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Everyone is either saved or lost. The sheep represent the saved and the goats represent the lost. Very simple.

The goats are meaning some of the following, for example.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Would any reasonable person interpret any of this, in this context, to also include atheists, satanists, witches, as some examples? Do atheists fit verse 22 and 26? Of course not.

I believe you are making a leap by coming to the conclusion that the goats of Matthew 25:31-46 only refer to the type of people Jesus was talking about there in Matthew 7. I don't see any basis for that.

Matthew 25:31-46 is about the day of judgment. You know that all people will be judged, right? See Romans 14:10-12. So, why would there be more than one day of judgment? Scripture repeatedly refers to the day of judgment. Not days of judgment. So, I believe the day of judgment is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. How can you reconcile premil with the fact that scripture repeatedly refers to a day of judgment rather than multiple judgment days? How do you interpret these passages:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Do atheists, as an example, fit the profile of the ones meant in verse 44? Of course not. But I can tell you who does fit that profile. The ones in Matthew 7 that heard and comprehended these sayings of Jesus, yet did them not, as one example.

I disagree. You don't seem to understand that all people, including atheists, will bow down and acknowledge Jesus is Lord on judgment day.

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

So, keeping in mind that all people will stand before Christ to give an account of themselves and that all people, including atheists, will acknowledge "that Jesus Christ is Lord", what basis is there for trying to claim that the goats of Matthew 25:31-46 can't refer to atheists, Satanists, witches, etc.?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I would like to take a shot at what you inquired about in that post, since I too am Premil. As to the sheep and goats judgment, the first thing we must ask ourself, is this meaning the great white throne judgment? The 2nd thing we must ask ourself, when is the sheep and goats judgment meaning? Since the latter is the easier of the two to answer, let's answer that one first.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This makes it crystal clear as to the timing. This shouldn't even be debatable. Verse 31 tells us exactly when it is meaning. It is meaning when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him. When is that meaning? It's obviously meaning His 2nd coming to the earth bodily. He already came to the earth bodily once. He will return to this same earth bodily yet again. Verse 31 goes on to say---then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. When? Obviously, once He has come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him.

Some Premils might argue that there is a gap between when He comes and when He sits upon His throne of glory, where He then divides the sheep from the goats after this gap. The only way that might be true, the sheep and goats judgment is meaning the great white throne judgment. As for me I disagree that the sheep and goats judgment is meaning the great white throne judgment. But if I instead agreed they were meaning the same judgment, I would have to switch to Amil in that case, since Matthew 25:31-33 makes it crystal clear to me when the sheep and goats judgment is meaning.

Unlike all Amils and even some Premils, I don't take the goats to be meaning all of the wicked lost in general. I take them to mean the unprofitable servants of Christ found throughout the church. IOW, I believe the Bible teaches NOSAS, and not OSAS instead. The goats are meaning some of the following, for example.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Would any reasonable person interpret any of this, in this context, to also include atheists, satanists, witches, as some examples? Do atheists fit verse 22 and 26? Of course not.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


Do atheists, as an example, fit the profile of the ones meant in verse 44? Of course not. But I can tell you who does fit that profile. The ones in Matthew 7 that heard and comprehended these sayings of Jesus, yet did them not, as one example.

You keep stating things like this but refuse to address the appararent contradictions in your interpretation. This does not advance Premil. It rather negates it.

Let us establish a few absolutes about this familiar passage:

(1) This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
(3) These are both judged at His appearing.
(4) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(5) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
(6) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
(7) The good receive eternal life.
(8) The bad obtain eternal punishment.
(9) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

What happens to the righteous when Jesus appears? What happens to the wicked when He appears? In Matthew 25:33 Christ (the king) sets “the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.” He then sentences them, and eternally separates them. The sheep are the believers, the goats are the unbelievers. Jesus confirms this in this final sentencing of all mankind in Matthew 25:34, 41&46, declaring: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

The terms “the sheep,” “them on his right hand,” “ye blessed” and “the righteous” are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats,” “them on the left hand” or “ye cursed.” The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal” whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). The designations and sentences can only relate to the saved and the unsaved. They could not be clearer. There are no exceptions or other groups additional to these two diametrically opposing groupings.

This is the final separation of the wicked from the redeemed of God. It is the climactic assignment of eternal destinies. All mankind is found embodied in one of these two unique groupings. There are no ‘nearly saved or ‘semi-saved’ people or ‘nearly lost’ or ‘semi-lost’ people on this day. One is either clothed with Christ’s robes of righteousness or eternally saved or he is He is clothed with his own filthy rags of righteousness and eternally lost. No one inherits the kingdom through national identity.

 

[Timtofly]

Because it is dead, in the same way a soul cannot inhabit a dead cow, or a pack of hamburger meat...


Have you ever talked to a person who was injured in an accident and left their body for a short time?

.

Then show the verse that states their soul left for 3.5 days and came back.

 

[BABerean2]

Then show the verse that states their soul left for 3.5 days and came back.

Then show a verse that states a package of hamburger meat does, or does not, contain a soul.


Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


.

 

[Timtofly]

Everyone is either saved or lost. The sheep represent the saved and the goats represent the lost. Very simple.

It is not simple. The Atonement is not by works at all. Sheep and goats do not apply to the church, and never have. Sheep and goats apply to the house of Jacob. God could chose the goats, but in this case, they are separated. So they are not resurrected dead people. They are National Israel alive today. Plenty of goats living in current Israel.

The church meets the Lord in the air, not at a throne set up in judgment. Even symbolically, how does one meet the Lord in the air, just to have to go back to earth in the same split second? This separation of sheep and goats may take months, and both sheep and goats have their souls removed from Adam's flesh and sent to their destinations immediately by angels. That is what the angels are for. Remember some of Israel are sent through time those 42 months, if they occur, to the Millennium. It is the sheep who populate the earth. Remember this coming kingdom that is separate from the Paradise gathering of the church? The church is the restoration of Adam's descendants; gathered in Paradise. The Second Coming is for Christ to set up His forever earthly kingdom. The first 1000 years the Israelites will be in charge. Then in the NHNE, the New Jerusalem will come down and take up a huge section of real estate.

I am not sure why some tend to think the NHNE is just another rendition of current earth. For one, it seems like it is going to be exponentially bigger and start out with a lot more population than this reality. Of course non pre-mill think less population because they accept most of current population is destroyed, and since no more pro-creation, this is it. We just all spread out and live comfortably and no new population period. The church is now like the angels, and do not marry nor have offspring. Not sure who they think is going to do that in the NHNE. Paradise is already settled with Adam's offspring over the last 6000 years. Perhaps the sons of God, not of Adam's flesh are brought back? I think I will just stick with the Millennium and those firstfruits Christ gathers at the Second Coming.

Trying to conflate the church and the coming Millennium leads to much confusion. Removing all confusion in a ball of fire does not help. The sheep and goats are separated after the Second Coming and that moment of destruction that wakes up the whole world to the reality of God on the throne. They are separated after the church is removed first. These sheep are not covered by the Atonement like the church. They are the repopulating souls on the earth in the Millennial Kingdom. The church cannot and will not populate the earth. The church will judge "from" Paradise, but not "on" the earth. Amil claim Christ is judging now, which is true. In the Millennium the church will still be judging like Christ is now. Christ will reign on earth for His one time Day job.

Why these sheep are not covered the same by the Atonement is the way they are chosen. It is by works, and Christ chooses them. They will have incorruptible bodies, but are not glorified and restored like the church will be. We are not told if they ever will be. That is not a good reason to say the millennium cannot happen with them ruling on the earth. Conflating these specifically chosen tribulation sheep with the church is the whole reason we have confusion with the Second Coming, mid trib, post trib, and rapture issues. These sheep are not the church, period. They literally physically die, period. It is not an endurance contest. It is the final harvest of Adam's flesh that deals with God’s chosen people, the 12 tribes of Jacob. It deals with humans currently alive, not resurrected from centuries of being in sheol. Christ gathers them out of the Nations, not the grave. "Nations" is not symbolic of death, and the dead.

 

[Timtofly]

So, keeping in mind that all people will stand before Christ to give an account of themselves and that all people, including atheists, will acknowledge "that Jesus Christ is Lord", what basis is there for trying to claim that the goats of Matthew 25:31-46 can't refer to atheists, Satanists, witches, etc.?

All of the dead stand at the GWT.

The church is not dead. The church is alive in Christ. Two totally foreign concepts to each other. Two totally different types of judgment in God's eyes.

 

[Timtofly]

Then show a verse that states a package of hamburger meat does, or does not, contain a soul.


Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What verse states these 2 witnesses were beheaded or a package of meat?

 

[BABerean2]

All of the dead stand at the GWT.

The church is not dead. The church is alive in Christ. Two totally foreign concepts to each other. Two totally different types of judgment in God's eyes.

The words of Jesus below do not agree with you.

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.



Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Witnesses to Jesus
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Paul also disagrees with you.

Rom_14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.


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[BABerean2]

What verse states these 2 witnesses were beheaded or a package of meat?

What verse says a human skull dug up out of the ground still contains a soul?

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[Timtofly]

The words of Jesus below do not agree with you.

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.



Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Witnesses to Jesus
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Paul also disagrees with you.

Rom_14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

The church will judge the lost, that is part of ruling and reigning with Christ.


All in Christ will stand together equally, but for reward, not against each other. We do enough judging against each other on earth and in chat forums. That is what Paul is claiming. It is useless to judge each other on earth.

 

[Timtofly]

What verse says a human skull dug up out of the ground still contains a soul?

We are not talking about dead bodies in the ground.

These individuals some have claimed to have already lived, and died, physically. They would not come from Paradise if they have not already had been given incorruptible bodies. That they die again is not the same thing as dying the first time. These 2 have already been in Paradise before God and held accountable for sin and death. That is not why they are allowed to die as the 2 witnesses. Those on earth think they have been taken care of. They even celebrate their death. Then God breathes life back into these incorruptible bodies. Now many can claim they are just sinners in corruptible bodies that have to die, and be changed. No where does it say their bodies were changed, or their souls left for those 3.5 days.

 

[BABerean2]

We are not talking about dead bodies in the ground.

These individuals some have claimed to have already lived, and died, physically. They would not come from Paradise if they have not already had been given incorruptible bodies. That they die again is not the same thing as dying the first time. These 2 have already been in Paradise before God and held accountable for sin and death. That is not why they are allowed to die as the 2 witnesses. Those on earth think they have been taken care of. They even celebrate their death. Then God breathes life back into these incorruptible bodies. Now many can claim they are just sinners in corruptible bodies that have to die, and be changed. No where does it say their bodies were changed, or their souls left for those 3.5 days.

You appear to be ignoring the scripture which reveals the identity of the witnesses.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


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[Spiritual Jew]

It is not simple.

This is why you have so many false beliefs that only you believe (or that very few believe besides you). You make everything way more complicated than it actually is.

The Atonement is not by works at all. Sheep and goats do not apply to the church, and never have. Sheep and goats apply to the house of Jacob. God could chose the goats, but in this case, they are separated. So they are not resurrected dead people. They are National Israel alive today. Plenty of goats living in current Israel.

Do you understand that the sheep receive "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared" for them "from the foundation of the world"? Are you suggesting that believers in the house of Jacob will receive eternal life because of their works rather than Christ's atonement? If so, show me where that is taught in scripture.

This is something that I think many people don't understand about Matthew 25:31-46. Just because the sheep are commended for helping needy people and the goats are scolded for not helping them does not mean the basis for receiving eternal life or eternal punishment is based on works. If you read James 2 you can see that our works reflect our faith. So, the sheep receive eternal life based on their faith which is reflected in the compassion they showed for needy people.

Your claim that the sheep are not the church is utterly baseless and false. Christ doesn't have two groups of people who belong to Him, He has one. We (believers) are all one in Christ whether we're Jew or Gentile (Galatians 3:26-29).

The church meets the Lord in the air, not at a throne set up in judgment. Even symbolically, how does one meet the Lord in the air, just to have to go back to earth in the same split second?

It doesn't say where the judgment takes place. Why are you assuming that it's on earth when it doesn't say that? In Revelation 20:11-15 it says heaven and earth flee from His presence, so that shows the judgment doesn't take place on earth or in heaven. We're talking about God here so He can make it take place wherever He wants.

This separation of sheep and goats may take months, and both sheep and goats have their souls removed from Adam's flesh and sent to their destinations immediately by angels. That is what the angels are for. Remember some of Israel are sent through time those 42 months, if they occur, to the Millennium. It is the sheep who populate the earth. Remember this coming kingdom that is separate from the Paradise gathering of the church? The church is the restoration of Adam's descendants; gathered in Paradise. The Second Coming is for Christ to set up His forever earthly kingdom. The first 1000 years the Israelites will be in charge. Then in the NHNE, the New Jerusalem will come down and take up a huge section of real estate.

None of that is taught anywhere in scripture. it's quite noticeable that you never use scripture to support your opinions. You just state opinions as if that's enough. It's not.

I am not sure why some tend to think the NHNE is just another rendition of current earth. For one, it seems like it is going to be exponentially bigger and start out with a lot more population than this reality. Of course non pre-mill think less population because they accept most of current population is destroyed, and since no more pro-creation, this is it. We just all spread out and live comfortably and no new population period. The church is now like the angels, and do not marry nor have offspring. Not sure who they think is going to do that in the NHNE. Paradise is already settled with Adam's offspring over the last 6000 years. Perhaps the sons of God, not of Adam's flesh are brought back? I think I will just stick with the Millennium and those firstfruits Christ gathers at the Second Coming.

You can stick with things you make up in your imagination if you want. I'll stick with scripture.

Trying to conflate the church and the coming Millennium leads to much confusion. Removing all confusion in a ball of fire does not help.

You are the one creating confusion. It's not confusing to me at all. Scripture repeatedly speaks of two groups. Jesus said in Matthew 12:30 that he who is not with Him is against Him. All people are either with Him (saved) or against Him (lost). And people are not saved based on nationality, either. Why make it any more complicated than that?

The sheep and goats are separated after the Second Coming and that moment of destruction that wakes up the whole world to the reality of God on the throne. They are separated after the church is removed first. These sheep are not covered by the Atonement like the church. They are the repopulating souls on the earth in the Millennial Kingdom. The church cannot and will not populate the earth. The church will judge "from" Paradise, but not "on" the earth. Amil claim Christ is judging now, which is true. In the Millennium the church will still be judging like Christ is now. Christ will reign on earth for His one time Day job.

Show me the scripture which teaches that the sheep are not covered by the Atonement. It seems like you're just making things up as you go along since you never indicate where you are getting this from besides your imagination.