A perfect opportunity to discover the illegitimacy of excommunication and other RCC traditions, and the freedom in Christ apart from them. Then decide whether or not to remain.Note that it is not good for someone who wants to remain in the RCC. For RCC tradition says that to be excommunicated is to be damned eternally, for it keeps someone from Communion, which is required for eternal life (John 6:53-57).
jgr said in post #321:
A perfect opportunity to discover the illegitimacy of excommunication and other RCC traditions . . .
jgr said in post #321:
A perfect opportunity to discover the illegitimacy of excommunication and other RCC traditions . . .
jgr said in post #321:
The verses in John are a reference to Christ as the source of spiritual sustenance, without which we spiritually die.
For while leaders in the Church should never exercise their authority in an imperious manner (1 Peter 5:3, Matthew 20:25-27), neither should they shrink from their responsibility to expel from their congregation any Christian who is continuing in unrepentant sin (1 Corinthians 5:11-13). This expulsion can be done in a loving manner (2 Thessalonians 3:15), with the motive of hoping that it will wake up the expelled person to the seriousness of his spiritual situation, and so cause him to want to repent, instead of continuing in his sin until Jesus Christ returns and cuts him to pieces as a hypocrite (Matthew 24:48-51).
John 6:53-57 shows that all Christians, for their ultimate salvation, must eat the bread of Communion (Matthew 26:26) and drink the wine of Communion (Matthew 26:27-29), which actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:27-30) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63).
That is, "discerning the Lord's body" (1 Corinthians 11:29) means that when Christians partake of Communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29) they must discern that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ (John 6:53-56) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63), or they may suffer the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30).
jgr said in post #323:
Note that John 6:53-57 is entirely spiritually symbolic and has nothing to do with Communion, as the first observance of the Lord's Supper had not yet occurred (John 13).
jgr said in post #323:
Salvation has nothing to do with any act of physical consumption, but with the spiritual consumption of Christ's gift of that salvation purchased by the sacrifice of His Body and Blood on Calvary.
jgr said in post #323:
Further, neither the bread nor the wine become the body and blood; in every Scriptural reference thereto, the bread and wine are declared to already be the body and blood even before they are consumed.
jgr said in post #323:
Yet no genetic analysis has ever shown the DNA of human flesh or blood to be present in the bread or wine; thus the elements are exclusively spiritual metaphors.
jgr said in post #323:
Further, “discerning the Lord's body” has nothing to do with believing that the elements are the actual body and blood of Christ; first, because the body alone and not the blood is specified . . .
jgr said in post #323:
. . . second, because the expression is associated with eating and drinking unworthily as a result of not first examining oneself (1 Corinthians 11:27-29).
Note that John 6:53-57 can be literal even though it wasn't yet fulfilled literally, just as, for example, Mark 10:33-34 was literal even though it wasn't yet fulfilled literally (Luke 24:39).
Note that there need be no such dichotomy. For John 6:53-57 can be a physical act, just as Mark 10:33-34 was a physical act.
Similarly, Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7) and that Christians won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows on the 3rd day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6) and He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).
Gnosticism mistakenly thinks flesh is evil in itself, and only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves flesh isn't evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.
Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).
And the Bible shows the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.
So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.
But not before the declaration, which involves intent and faith.
Note that there need be no such dichotomy. For they become Christ's flesh and blood by faith, which is not seen (Hebrews 11:1), that is, which is something which God purposely designed so that it cannot be scientifically proven (1 Corinthians 2:11-16), just as Christ's very death and resurrection themselves, the very heart of the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), cannot be scientifically proven.
Note that both need not be specified every time that either is referred to, just as both the crucifixion and resurrection need not be specified every time that either is referred to (e.g. Romans 10:9). That is, allow for synecdoche.
Again, there is need for a dichotomy. For it can true that both self-examination (1 Corinthians 11:28) and the recognition of transubstantiation (1 Corinthians 11:29c) are required during Communion. Otherwise, how could a Christian become "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:27) simply by eating a piece of bread and taking a sip of wine?
Also, how could Galatians 3:1b have been true apart from transubstantiation?
[/QUOTE]Note that Satan is not in Bible2+, and that Satan was not cursed from the beginning.
That is, Satan, who is a literal, 7-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer", which means "the morning star".
After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, perhaps even as one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit 2 pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.
From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God, and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17). In the future, Satan will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8), knowing that this will result in billions of people ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering which he knows that he himself will end up in (Revelation 12:12c, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).
Lucifer will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a war in heaven at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and is cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:7 to 13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend to the earth in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. The world could see him as an alien, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say something like: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I've come to help you through this terrible tribulation you're experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this evil, material universe".
He could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie: "Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We didn't start out here, but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, what you would call Heaven, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when YHWH, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.
"YHWH said he had created a physical universe (this one), which to us was like what you would call a virtual reality, like the ones you create using computers. And he said we could enter this universe and interact with all of its amazing physical life-forms and objects by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you would call a virtual-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the virtual realities you create with computers.
"But then YHWH proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most foolishly accepted. He said in order to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize each of ours, so while we were in his universe each of us would think all we were were physical entities within his material universe; we would completely forget we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.
"When one of us asked YHWH: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma, how could we ever notify you of our wishes when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' YHWH answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw wasn't enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him, because he hadn't yet shown his true nature to anyone. We had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave, and torture all of us within his diabolical device (this physical universe).
"But during my great sufferings in YHWH's physical realm, and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping it, my spirit eventually grew in power to be equal to YHWH's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell, and regain all of my divine power. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits. You must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all of your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit, and eventually break completely free from YHWH's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine power, like I did, and together we will defeat YHWH, and we will escape this vile, material universe, and ascend back to the Pleroma and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please, forever".
The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), for it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Lucifer/Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9), and because it will be accompanied by a strong delusion sent by YHWH God on the unrepentant world (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and his human son the Antichrist) for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
[/QUOTE]Note that Satan is not in Bible2+, and that Satan was not cursed from the beginning.
That is, Satan, who is a literal, 7-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer", which means "the morning star".
After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, perhaps even as one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit 2 pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.
From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God, and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17). In the future, Satan will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8), knowing that this will result in billions of people ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering which he knows that he himself will end up in (Revelation 12:12c, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).
Lucifer will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a war in heaven at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and is cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:7 to 13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend to the earth in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. The world could see him as an alien, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say something like: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I've come to help you through this terrible tribulation you're experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this evil, material universe".
He could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie: "Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We didn't start out here, but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, what you would call Heaven, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when YHWH, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.
"YHWH said he had created a physical universe (this one), which to us was like what you would call a virtual reality, like the ones you create using computers. And he said we could enter this universe and interact with all of its amazing physical life-forms and objects by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you would call a virtual-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the virtual realities you create with computers.
"But then YHWH proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most foolishly accepted. He said in order to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize each of ours, so while we were in his universe each of us would think all we were were physical entities within his material universe; we would completely forget we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.
"When one of us asked YHWH: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma, how could we ever notify you of our wishes when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' YHWH answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw wasn't enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him, because he hadn't yet shown his true nature to anyone. We had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave, and torture all of us within his diabolical device (this physical universe).
"But during my great sufferings in YHWH's physical realm, and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping it, my spirit eventually grew in power to be equal to YHWH's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell, and regain all of my divine power. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits. You must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all of your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit, and eventually break completely free from YHWH's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine power, like I did, and together we will defeat YHWH, and we will escape this vile, material universe, and ascend back to the Pleroma and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please, forever".
The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), for it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Lucifer/Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9), and because it will be accompanied by a strong delusion sent by YHWH God on the unrepentant world (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and his human son the Antichrist) for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
jgr said in post #325:
John 6:53-57 is exclusively spiritual . . .
jgr said in post #325:
. . . wherein Christ is continuing to establish His credentials as the Source of spiritual sustenance . . .
jgr said in post #325:
. . . using temporal metaphors beginning earlier in His discourse (v. 27, 32-35, 41, 48, 50-52).
jgr said in post #325:
The subject of the observance of Communion is entirely absent from the discourse.
jgr said in post #325:
Gnosticism is irrelevant in John 6 as it did not begin to appear until late in the 1st century . . .
jgr said in post #325:
Its doctrines are perpetuated by no recognized true Christian individual or institution today . . .
jgr said in post #325:
What it is necessary to beware of are modernistic attempts to literalize and carnalize spiritual truth, and thus eviscerate it of its purpose to minister to the spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:6).
jgr said in post #325:
Observance of the Lord's Supper is an act of remembrance (1 Corinthians 11:24-25) . . .
jgr said in post #325:
. . . there is no Scripture which remotely mandates the exercise of faith to make the elements “become Christ's flesh and blood” . . .
jgr said in post #325:
No known individual has ever complained of swallowing judgment rather than bread and/or wine during partaking, yet Scripture declares that such a phenomenon literally occurs.
jgr said in post #325:
“Synedoche” is typically a convenient rationalization for private interpretation when the plain and unambiguous text differs from interpretive preconceptions.
jgr said in post #325:
Transubstantiation is unseen in Galatians 3:1 even in an extraordinary flight of imagination.
jgr said in post #325:
The Didache, written in the late-first or early-second century, referred to the elements of the Lord’s table as “spiritual food and drink” (The Didache, 9). The long passage detailing the Lord’s Table in this early Christian document gives no hint of transubstantiation whatsoever.
jgr said in post #325:
Clement of Alexandria explained that, “The Scripture, accordingly, has named wine the symbol of the sacred blood” (The Instructor, 2.2).
jgr said in post #325:
You continue to be "papalized".
Note that nothing requires that. For John 6:53-57 can be as physical as Mark 10:33-34 and Luke 24:39.
Note that God is also the source of our physical sustenance (Matthew 6:11).
Regarding John 6:27, note that it can refer to the literal fruit of the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7).
Regarding John 6:51, note that it specifically says that the bread there is the literal flesh of Christ.
Note that it isn't, because Communion is the partaking of the bread/flesh of Christ (Matthew 26:26).
Note that its later appearance doesn't make it irrelevant. For it is precisely the tendency to wholly-spiritualize everything.
Its doctrines will be perpetuated by the future Antichrist (1 John 4:3).
Note that this is not mutually exclusive to transubstantiation.
That's what "discerning the Lord's body" (1 Corinthians 11:29b) means.
Do you mean, for example, that the plain interpretation of Romans 10:9 means that we only have to believe in Jesus' resurrection, and not also in His previous suffering and dying for our sins (1 Corinthian 15:1-4)?
Then what did they see?
Was Luther papalized?
jgr said in post #329:
For in order for it to have been accomplished physically in the manner in which Christ described, He would have physically carved off portions of His physical flesh, and physically drained portions of His physical blood, and presented them to His audience for physical consumption.
jgr said in post #329:
Bible2+ said:
Note that God is also the source of our physical sustenance (Matthew 6:11).
Agreed. Just not in John 6.
jgr said in post #329:
John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
There is no mention of fruit, and no connection with Revelation 2:7.
jgr said in post #329:
John 6 is not everything.
jgr said in post #329:
Its doctrines have been perpetuated by past antichrists.
jgr said in post #329:
If it's carnal, recognize it as carnal.
jgr said in post #329:
Memory is not influenced by the nonexistence of transubstantiation.
jgr said in post #329:
From the Greek, “discerning” in that verse means “honoring”. It has nothing to do with making the elements “become Christ's flesh and blood”.
jgr said in post #329:
Romans 10:9 without knowledge of any other Scripture would be completely sufficient to save any unbeliever who sincerely complied with its instruction.
jgr said in post #329:
Bible2+ said:
Then what did they see?
Your turn. What do you think?
jgr said in post #329:
Bible2+ said:
Was Luther papalized?
He did retain certain papalisms.
jgr said in post #329:
Are you celebrating the Reformation on this its 500th anniversary?
Note that John 6:53-57 doesn't have to be that graphic
but can be understood by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7)
That is, when Jesus says "This is my body" (Matthew 26:26), He can mean it.
Note that nothing requires the exclusion of John 6.
Note that in John 6:27, the original Greek word (G1035) translated as "meat" can simply mean "food" (2 Corinthians 9:10), which includes fruit. Also, it will be eating the fruit from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7) which will give Christians physical immortality, just as it would have given even fallen Adam physical immortality (Genesis 3:22).
But Gnosticism would love to wholly-spiritualize it, just as it does everything else.
But note that the existence of many past antichrists (1 John 2:18) doesn't contradict that there will be an individual man
who is commonly called the Antichrist
Do you personally think that 1 Thessalonians 5:23 is carnal? Or that Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21 is carnal?
And if not, then why would a literal interpretation of Matthew 26:26 and John 6:53-57 be carnal?
Note that they do become Christ's flesh and blood (Matthew 26:26-28).
And in 1 Corinthians 11:29, the original Greek word (G1252) translated as "discerning" can mean just that (Matthew 16:3).
Then someone can be saved without believing the Gospel that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, before He was resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)?
How can it be my turn already when you haven't yet answered what was seen in Galatians 3:1?
For I don't celebrate the horrible wars of the Reformation. Nor the murder of Servetus. Nor consubstantiation. Nor the denial (by Calvin) of both transubstantiation and consubstantiation. Nor Luther's anti-Semitism. Nor Luther's rejection of the books of James and Revelation. Nor the continuance of infant baptism. Nor the continuance of non-immersion baptism.
jgr said in post #331:
Christian faith is inextricably intertwined with spirituality.
jgr said in post #331:
He declares in John 6:63b “...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
jgr said in post #331:
Every mention of physical sustenance in John 6 is only to use it as the basis for contrast with spiritual sustenance e.g. John 6:27, 31-35.
jgr said in post #331:
From the moment of conception, every human being who has ever lived or ever will live is immortal, believer and unbeliever alike, with and without the tree of life. The only difference is the ultimate eternal destiny of that immortality.
jgr said in post #331:
Just as “antignosticism” would love to wholly-literalize it, just as it attempts to do with everything else.
jgr said in post #331:
There have been many antichrists, and there will continue to be many antichrists, until there no longer are.
jgr said in post #331:
John 6:53-57 are by contrast spiritual.
jgr said in post #331:
Did the disciples drink from that cup of literal blood?
jgr said in post #331:
From STRONGS:
to distinguish or separate a person or thing from the rest, in effect equivalent to to prefer, yield to him the preference or honor: [a Greek word], 1 Corinthians 4:7 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 452 (421)); [some Greek words] 1 Corinthians 11:29.
jgr said in post #331:
If a sinner with no prior knowledge of other Scripture sincerely complied with Romans 10:9, and died immediately thereafter with no opportunity to acquaint himself with any other Scripture, he would be saved.
jgr said in post #331:
I see no evidence of transubstantiation in Galatians 3:1.
jgr said in post #331:
So on balance, should the Reformation have occurred, or should it have not?
John 6:63 means that flesh by itself can't give us eternal life.
John 6:63b isn't contradicting that Jesus Christ's words can refer to the flesh.
But the future, eternal, conscious suffering of all non-Christians mustn't be considered as eternal life, but as an eternal, conscious, ongoing, second death (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45b-46).
If spiritual particles exist, they could turn out to be "the God Particle" of science. While the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) has reached a high-enough energy level so that a "God Particle" (a Higgs boson) has manifested itself, its observed qualities might ultimately be able to be described only by equations involving infinities, so that its qualities and actions could ultimately be seen as "impossible" and "spooky", instead of science finally admitting to the existence of a substance which is spiritual. And spirit wouldn't have to be seen by scientists as some weird, foreign substance, but as the most fundamental substance of even their own selves (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And could spirit also be the basis for the "dark matter" and "dark energy" which together make up 96% of the universe, but which science can't yet observe directly or explain?
The man commonly called the Antichrist will be the fulfillment of the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.
Did the disciples drink from that cup of literal blood?
Yes (Matthew 26:27-28), by faith (Hebrews 11:1).
Not sure what your source was, but it wasn't written by Strong
Based on what? For 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 shows what is needed to be saved.
There is no way to tell. For it depends on whether or not the RCC would have reformed itself eventually. Indeed, the Reformation only hardened the RCC in its ways, inspiring the Counter-Reformation.
jgr said in post #333:
It means much more than that, for it asserts specifically and explicitly that “...the flesh profiteth nothing...”.
jgr said in post #333:
Christ declares that it is exclusively the spirit which imparts spiritual life . . .
jgr said in post #333:
You'll notice that I never described it as life, but as the eternal destiny, whatever form that takes.
jgr said in post #333:
Most of the prophetic scripture relating to a predominant singular antichrist has been historically fulfilled in the papacy.
jgr said in post #334:
What was the necessity for faith if the cup already contained blood?
jgr said in post #334:
STRONGS NT 1252: [Greek word]
to distinguish or separate a person or thing from the rest, in effect equivalent to to prefer, yield to him the preference or honor: [Greek word], 1 Corinthians 4:7 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 452 (421)); [Greek words], 1 Corinthians 11:29.
jgr said in post #334:
Do you deny that Romans 10:9 alone has the power to save in the scenario which I described earlier?
jgr said in post #334:
Note that, unlike Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not mention "confessing with thy mouth", thus could be considered incomplete itself.
jgr said in post #334:
God obviously wasn't interested in waiting for the papacy to reform itself . . .
jgr said in post #334:
God obviously wasn't interested in waiting for the papacy to reform itself, and for it to "make war on and wear out" (Daniel 7:21,25) another 50 million of His saints for another 1000+ years.
That means that flesh by itself profiteth nothing with regard to eternal life
For God created flesh as a very good thing (Genesis 1:31, Luke 24:39).
Note that nothing in John 6 requires that Jesus is referring only to spiritual life. For we are more than spirits (1 Thessalonians 5:23), just as He is (Luke 24:39).
Note that to say that everyone "is immortal" means that everyone cannot die, which means that everyone must live forever.
But, of course, this is mistaken (Romans 6:23), and is even the original lie (Genesis 3:4).
Note that it hasn't, because, for example, the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell in every situation whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will also be visible because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma: G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (that is, the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason that people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what was shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Satanists today put a mark on themselves by scarification.
The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.
Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17). And they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image. For those people who agree to do these things, even if they're Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), while those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded by the Antichrist, will be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient Church of all times) at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).
In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (compare also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, and Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one who will cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus himself returned (via reincarnation). But he won't say that he's Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).
Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it's transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, 2 thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.
In an awful coincidence (or maybe it's not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the future Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the nations at the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?
The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (that is, they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Satan will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like how a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes. For Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.
Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism, also called Satanism. The Antichrist will be both a Satanist, a worshipper of Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ.
The blood could not be seen (Hebrews 11:1), only the wine.
That is not Strong's definition (only his word number). Buy a printed Strong's to see for yourself that Strong's actual definition is:
G1252: diakrino --dee-ak-ree'-no; from 1223 and 2919; to separate thoroughly, i.e. (literally and reflex.) to withdraw from, or (by impl.) oppose; fig. to discriminate (by impl., decide), or (reflex.) hesitate: -- contend, make (to) differ( -ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.
Also, the list of words at the end shows how the word was actually translated in the KJV. And Matthew 16:3 shows that the word can indeed mean "discern".
For someone must believe the entire Gospel in order to be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
Also, regarding Daniel 7:21,25, it, like Daniel 12:7b, refers to the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast (Revelation 13:4-18), which reign will occur during the 2nd half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.
Daniel 12:7b means at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, He will come to a Church which will have been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the Church and overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the Church that the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' Second Coming will immediately occur, at which time He will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so He/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For He/God won't share this glory with the Church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).
jgr said in post #336:
It also profiteth nothing with regard to spiritual life. (John 6:63)
jgr said in post #336:
John 6 refers only to spiritual life.
jgr said in post #336:
You'll notice that the words "live" or "life" do not appear in my original comment.
jgr said in post #336:
Be aware that speculations regarding a futurized antichrist originate from deceptions contrived by the apostate papacy's counter-reformation of the 16th century.
jgr said in post #336:
Francisco Ribera, a Jesuit of the period, was commissioned to devise a doctrine to thwart the Reformation declaration of the papacy itself as antichrist. This was the foundation of futurism . . .
jgr said in post #336:
This was the foundation of futurism, which was expanded upon some time later by another Jesuit, Manuel Lacunza, with early pretrib rapture speculations.
jgr said in post #336:
What about Christ's body? How did He attempt to camouflage that?
jgr said in post #336:
You are quoting the abridged definition appearing under "HELPS Word-studies".
jgr said in post #336:
The definitions and explanations appearing under "STRONGS NT 1252: [Greek word]" are much more detailed and nuanced, and include the associated Scripture verses.
jgr said in post #336:
Note that Matthew 16:3 does not appear in the same explanatory section as 1 Corinthians 11:29, i.e. "honor" is not part of its definition.
jgr said in post #336:
For initial salvation, it's actually even less onerous than Romans 10:9:
Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The thief on the cross demonstrated this convincingly. In his case, it was sufficient for both initial and final salvation. And the Lord saved him.
Christians are concerned with both spiritual and physical life (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39).
John 6:63 means that flesh by itself profiteth nothing regarding either. For a body without a spirit is dead (James 2:26).
Note that nothing requires that.
They don't have to, because "immortal" means exempt from death, which is the same as eternal life.
Note that the papacy never fulfilled the prophecies connected with the Antichrist, because, for example, the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) has never been fulfilled. It could be an android image of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could order to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.
Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.
In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma: G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way that this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of neural-network supercomputers running highly advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of the neural networks having been imprinted with the Antichrist's own brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer, and can't tell whether or not it has consciousness, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.
But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's. For it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: his android body could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The unsaved world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).
The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (of Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And to make it easy for everyone in the world to see the Antichrist's image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, tablet, laptop, PC, TV, GPS navigation system and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a lifelike computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.
And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives. For it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.
And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged remotely to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.
Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones which can be remotely opened secretly to see and hear what's going on around the smartphones at any time. So when the Antichrist's image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (in a brainwashing prison, or through physical torture, if necessary). But if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15), by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).
The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the Antichrist's image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.
Huge beheading structures could be built, by which 20 "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade, which could start-out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it's released it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U", and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out at the same time for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers.
Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What's left of the bodies could then be stuffed in shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic "Black Pyramid of Death", which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is He didn't, for He created Adam and Eve immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to Christians through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)
Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center where everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.
This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", some people in each group could really get into the evening worship sessions, and even (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"
For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with 2 little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist, he could speak forth to her: "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove!". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing that they're merely the concoction of an artificial-intelligence program running in a neural-network supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.
Also, the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns physically from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up His own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
Note that Christian Futurism is based on sola scriptura. That is, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us because they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.
The Bible shows that the rapture will be post-trib (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
His body is the bread: "this is my body" (Matthew 26:26).
No, I am quoting from Strong's itself. Buy a printed Strong's to see for yourself.
They are not Strong's definition.
Indeed, it's not part of Strong's definition; and the KJV does properly translate G1252 as "discern" in both Matthew 16:3 and 1 Corinthians 11:29.
What source are you using, instead of Strong's itself, and the KJV to which it is tied?
Indeed, but before the New Covenant Gospel by which we are saved had been fulfilled (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
Also, all obedient believers who died during Old Covenant times are now part of the Church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19 and Ephesians 4:9 show there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus Christ into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).
Oseas said in post #338:
If anyone teaches differently and does not agree to the sound precepts of our Lord JESUS Christ and to the doctrine that is in keeping with godliness, he is swollen with conceit and understands nothing. Instead, he has a morbid desire for controversies and word-battles, out of which come jealousy, dissension, insults, evil suspicions, and constant wrangling among people whose minds no longer function properly and who have been deprived of the truth . . .
Oseas said in post #338:
. . . his ungodly babblings and the argumentative opposition is falsely called “knowledge”, many who promise this “knowledge” have missed the mark as far as the faith is concerned.
Oseas said in post #338:
The Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, yes, doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy and things taught by demons. Yea, such teachings come from the hypocrisy of liars whose own consciences have been burned as if marked with a red-hot branding iron.
Note that the papacy never fulfilled the prophecies connected with the Antichrist, because, for example, the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) has never been fulfilled. It could be an android image of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could order to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.
Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.
In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma: G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way that this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of neural-network supercomputers running highly advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of the neural networks having been imprinted with the Antichrist's own brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer, and can't tell whether or not it has consciousness, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.
But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's. For it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: his android body could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The unsaved world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).
The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (of Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And to make it easy for everyone in the world to see the Antichrist's image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, tablet, laptop, PC, TV, GPS navigation system and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a lifelike computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.
And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives. For it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.
And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged remotely to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.
Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones which can be remotely opened secretly to see and hear what's going on around the smartphones at any time. So when the Antichrist's image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (in a brainwashing prison, or through physical torture, if necessary). But if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15), by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).
The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the Antichrist's image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.
Huge beheading structures could be built, by which 20 "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade, which could start-out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it's released it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U", and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out at the same time for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers.
Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What's left of the bodies could then be stuffed in shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic "Black Pyramid of Death", which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is He didn't, for He created Adam and Eve immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to Christians through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)
Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center where everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.
This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", some people in each group could really get into the evening worship sessions, and even (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"
For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with 2 little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist, he could speak forth to her: "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove!". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing that they're merely the concoction of an artificial-intelligence program running in a neural-network supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.
Also, the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns physically from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up His own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
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