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Featured When does the kingdom come

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Markwsmith2020, Oct 20, 2017.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    A perfect opportunity to discover the illegitimacy of excommunication and other RCC traditions, and the freedom in Christ apart from them. Then decide whether or not to remain.

    The verses in John are a reference to Christ as the source of spiritual sustenance, without which we spiritually die.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that excommunication, in the sense of casting someone out of Church fellowship, is found in the Bible.

    For while leaders in the Church should never exercise their authority in an imperious manner (1 Peter 5:3, Matthew 20:25-27), neither should they shrink from their responsibility to expel from their congregation any Christian who is continuing in unrepentant sin (1 Corinthians 5:11-13). This expulsion can be done in a loving manner (2 Thessalonians 3:15), with the motive of hoping that it will wake up the expelled person to the seriousness of his spiritual situation, and so cause him to want to repent, instead of continuing in his sin until Jesus Christ returns and cuts him to pieces as a hypocrite (Matthew 24:48-51).

    Regarding excommunication in the sense of keeping a Christian from the bread and wine of Communion, you are right that the RCC tradition is mistaken. For a Christian can partake of the bread and wine of Communion in any place and at any time (1 Corinthians 11:23-26), even solemnly in his own house.

    John 6:53-57 shows that all Christians, for their ultimate salvation, must eat the bread of Communion (Matthew 26:26) and drink the wine of Communion (Matthew 26:27-29), which actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:27-30) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63).

    That is, "discerning the Lord's body" (1 Corinthians 11:29) means that when Christians partake of Communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29) they must discern that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ (John 6:53-56) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63), or they may suffer the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30).
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    Note that John 6:53-57 is entirely spiritually symbolic and has nothing to do with Communion, as the first observance of the Lord's Supper had not yet occurred (John 13). Salvation has nothing to do with any act of physical consumption, but with the spiritual consumption of Christ's gift of that salvation purchased by the sacrifice of His Body and Blood on Calvary. Further, neither the bread nor the wine become the body and blood; in every Scriptural reference thereto, the bread and wine are declared to already be the body and blood even before they are consumed. Yet no genetic analysis has ever shown the DNA of human flesh or blood to be present in the bread or wine; thus the elements are exclusively spiritual metaphors. Further, “discerning the Lord's body” has nothing to do with believing that the elements are the actual body and blood of Christ; first, because the body alone and not the blood is specified; second, because the expression is associated with eating and drinking unworthily as a result of not first examining oneself (1 Corinthians 11:27-29). Thus to eat and drink unworthily, and to not discern the Lord's body, is to not discern the spiritual significance of the breaking of His body on the cross, wherein the rending of the veil of His flesh (Hebrews 10:20) was shortly followed by the rending of the temple veil (Matthew 27:51), and the immediate availability of the associated New Covenant spiritual benefits and blessings (Hebrews 10:19).
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that John 6:53-57 can be literal even though it wasn't yet fulfilled literally, just as, for example, Mark 10:33-34 was literal even though it wasn't yet fulfilled literally (Luke 24:39).

    Note that there need be no such dichotomy. For John 6:53-57 can be a physical act, just as Mark 10:33-34 was a physical act.

    Similarly, Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7) and that Christians won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows on the 3rd day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6) and He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

    Gnosticism mistakenly thinks flesh is evil in itself, and only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves flesh isn't evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

    Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

    And the Bible shows the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

    So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

    But not before the declaration, which involves intent and faith.

    Note that there need be no such dichotomy. For they become Christ's flesh and blood by faith, which is not seen (Hebrews 11:1), that is, which is something which God purposely designed so that it cannot be scientifically proven (1 Corinthians 2:11-16), just as Christ's very death and resurrection themselves, the very heart of the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), cannot be scientifically proven.

    Note that both need not be specified every time that either is referred to, just as both the crucifixion and resurrection need not be specified every time that either is referred to (e.g. Romans 10:9). That is, allow for synecdoche.

    Again, there is need for a dichotomy. For it can true that both self-examination (1 Corinthians 11:28) and the recognition of transubstantiation (1 Corinthians 11:29c) are required during Communion. Otherwise, how could a Christian become "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:27) simply by eating a piece of bread and taking a sip of wine?

    Also, how could Galatians 3:1b have been true apart from transubstantiation?
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    John 6:53-57 is exclusively spiritual, wherein Christ is continuing to establish His credentials as the Source of spiritual sustenance, using temporal metaphors beginning earlier in His discourse (v. 27, 32-35, 41, 48, 50-52). The subject of the observance of Communion is entirely absent from the discourse.

    Gnosticism is irrelevant in John 6 as it did not begin to appear until late in the 1st century, decades after the conclusion of Christ's earthly ministry. Its doctrines are perpetuated by no recognized true Christian individual or institution today; thus there is little to nothing of which to “beware”. I personally have never seen any manifestation of it over my numerous years of Christian life.

    What it is necessary to beware of are modernistic attempts to literalize and carnalize spiritual truth, and thus eviscerate it of its purpose to minister to the spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:6).

    The original declaration exists for every element since the first Lord's Supper, having been issued by Christ Himself, thus there is no “before the declaration.” The precise moment at which each declaration becomes effective is indeterminate, but is certainly prior to each element passing the lips, as thereafter it is no longer visible to confirm the declaration “This is...”.

    Observance of the Lord's Supper is an act of remembrance (1 Corinthians 11:24-25); there is no Scripture which remotely mandates the exercise of faith to make the elements “become Christ's flesh and blood” because it is remembrance which is the sole and exclusive objective; the disposition of the elements is irrelevant.

    1 Corinthians 11:29c offers evidence against physical transubstantiation and for spiritual transformation as it describes the elements being transformed spiritually into judgment if partaken of undiscerningly. No known individual has ever complained of swallowing judgment rather than bread and/or wine during partaking, yet Scripture declares that such a phenomenon literally occurs.

    “Synedoche” is typically a convenient rationalization for private interpretation when the plain and unambiguous text differs from interpretive preconceptions.

    If 1 Corinthians 11:27 had said “Wherefore whosoever shall eat the body or drink the blood of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord”, there might be some evidence for transubstantiation. It does not, declaring instead that unworthy consumption of the symbolic elements themselves is sufficient to incur guilt. This is consistent with the whole chapter, wherein consumption is expressed exclusively in terms of the symbolic elements themselves, rather than being expressed in any form which could imply transubstantiation.

    Transubstantiation is unseen in Galatians 3:1 even in an extraordinary flight of imagination.

    Descriptions in the early Church of the elements as metaphoric spiritual symbols are seen:

    The Didache, written in the late-first or early-second century, referred to the elements of the Lord’s table as “spiritual food and drink” (The Didache, 9). The long passage detailing the Lord’s Table in this early Christian document gives no hint of transubstantiation whatsoever.

    Clement of Alexandria explained that, “The Scripture, accordingly, has named wine the symbol of the sacred blood” (The Instructor, 2.2).

    Cyprian (200–258), who sometimes described the eucharist using very literal language, spoke against any who might use mere water for their celebration of the Lord’s Table. In condemning such practices, he explained that the cup of the Lord is a representation of the blood of Christ: “I marvel much whence this practice has arisen, that in some places, contrary to Evangelical and Apostolic discipline, water is offered in the Cup of the Lord, which alone cannot represent the Blood of Christ” (Epistle 63.7).

    Eusebius of Caesarea (263–340) espoused a symbolic view in his Proof of the Gospel:
    For with the wine which was indeed the symbol of His blood, He cleanses them that are baptized into His death, and believe on His blood, of their old sins, washing them away and purifying their old garments and vesture, so that they, ransomed by the precious blood of the divine spiritual grapes, and with the wine from this vine, “put off the old man with his deeds, and put on the new man which is renewed into knowledge in the image of Him that created him.” . . . He gave to His disciples, when He said, “Take, drink; this is my blood that is shed for you for the remission of sins: this do in remembrance of me.” And, “His teeth are white as milk,” show the brightness and purity of the sacramental food. For again, He gave Himself the symbols of His divine dispensation to His disciples, when He bade them make the likeness of His own Body. For since He no more was to take pleasure in bloody sacrifices, or those ordained by Moses in the slaughter of animals of various kinds, and was to give them bread to use as the symbol of His Body, He taught the purity and brightness of such food by saying, “And his teeth are white as milk” (Demonstratia Evangelica, 8.1.76–80).

    Athanasius (296–373) similarly contended that the elements of the Eucharist are to be understood spiritually, not physically: “[W]hat He says is not fleshly but spiritual. For how many would the body suffice for eating, that it should become the food for the whole world? But for this reason He made mention of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven, in order that He might draw them away from the bodily notion, and that from henceforth they might learn that the aforesaid flesh was heavenly eating from above and spiritual food given by Him.” (Festal Letter, 4.19)

    You continue to be "papalized".
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  6. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

    Note that Satan is not in Bible2+, and that Satan was not cursed from the beginning.

    That is, Satan, who is a literal, 7-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer", which means "the morning star".

    After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, perhaps even as one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit 2 pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.

    From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God, and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17). In the future, Satan will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8), knowing that this will result in billions of people ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering which he knows that he himself will end up in (Revelation 12:12c, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

    Lucifer will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a war in heaven at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and is cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:7 to 13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend to the earth in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. The world could see him as an alien, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say something like: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I've come to help you through this terrible tribulation you're experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this evil, material universe".

    He could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie: "Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We didn't start out here, but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, what you would call Heaven, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when YHWH, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.

    "YHWH said he had created a physical universe (this one), which to us was like what you would call a virtual reality, like the ones you create using computers. And he said we could enter this universe and interact with all of its amazing physical life-forms and objects by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you would call a virtual-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the virtual realities you create with computers.

    "But then YHWH proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most foolishly accepted. He said in order to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize each of ours, so while we were in his universe each of us would think all we were were physical entities within his material universe; we would completely forget we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.

    "When one of us asked YHWH: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma, how could we ever notify you of our wishes when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' YHWH answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw wasn't enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him, because he hadn't yet shown his true nature to anyone. We had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave, and torture all of us within his diabolical device (this physical universe).

    "But during my great sufferings in YHWH's physical realm, and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping it, my spirit eventually grew in power to be equal to YHWH's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell, and regain all of my divine power. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits. You must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all of your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit, and eventually break completely free from YHWH's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine power, like I did, and together we will defeat YHWH, and we will escape this vile, material universe, and ascend back to the Pleroma and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please, forever"

    The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), for it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Lucifer/Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9), and because it will be accompanied by a strong delusion sent by YHWH God on the unrepentant world (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and his human son the Antichrist) for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).[/QUOTE]
  7. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member


    About your fables written above. You, spirit of darkness, you are a sower of tares and fables artificially composed by the spirit of the Devil. Get behind me, Satan, away with you, Satan. you are a stumbling-block to me, you know not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Go down to the abyss, Satan, your own place.
  8. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that nothing requires that. For John 6:53-57 can be as physical as Mark 10:33-34 and Luke 24:39.

    Note that God is also the source of our physical sustenance (Matthew 6:11).

    Regarding John 6:27, note that it can refer to the literal fruit of the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7).

    Regarding John 6:51, note that it specifically says that the bread there is the literal flesh of Christ.

    Note that it isn't, because Communion is the partaking of the bread/flesh of Christ (Matthew 26:26).

    Note that its later appearance doesn't make it irrelevant. For it is precisely the tendency to wholly-spiritualize everything.

    Its doctrines will be perpetuated by the future Antichrist (1 John 4:3).

    Then is 1 Thessalonians 5:23 carnal? And is Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21 carnal?

    Note that this is not mutually exclusive to transubstantiation.

    That's what "discerning the Lord's body" (1 Corinthians 11:29b) means.

    Note that the judgment of 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 can be realized only after the fact, and only by those willing to admit the reason that they are sick, or that someone has died.

    Do you mean, for example, that the plain interpretation of Romans 10:9 means that we only have to believe in Jesus' resurrection, and not also in His previous suffering and dying for our sins (1 Corinthian 15:1-4)?

    Then what did they see?

    How does it deny it? That is, it could have already been assumed by the writer and his readers.

    What scripture is that?

    Also, regarding extra-Biblical quotes, what happened to sola scriptura?

    Also, what was Luther's view regarding transubstantiation?

    Was Luther papalized?
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    It does. For in order for it to have been accomplished physically in the manner in which Christ described, He would have physically carved off portions of His physical flesh, and physically drained portions of His physical blood, and presented them to His audience for physical consumption. Did He do so? Let's be physical.

    Agreed. Just not in John 6.

    John 6:27
    Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    There is no mention of fruit, and no connection with Revelation 2:7.

    Once again, to literally accomplish what Christ describes, necessitates Him carving off a portion of His literal flesh to be consumed. Let's be literal.

    For Matthew 26:26 to have been literally accomplished as described, the bread in Christ's hand would have had to instantaneously been transformed into His body at the precise moment when He said “this is my body”. There is no evidence that this occurred. Let's be literal.

    We've been discussing John 6. John 6 is not everything.

    Its doctrines have been perpetuated by past antichrists.

    If it's carnal, recognize it as carnal. If it's spiritual, recognize it as spiritual.

    Memory is not influenced by the nonexistence of transubstantiation.

    From the Greek, “discerning” in that verse means “honoring”. It has nothing to do with making the elements “become Christ's flesh and blood”.

    Romans 10:9 without knowledge of any other Scripture would be completely sufficient to save any unbeliever who sincerely complied with its instruction.

    Your turn. What do you think?

    He did retain certain papalisms.

    An aside question (apologies if I've asked it before):
    Are you celebrating the Reformation on this its 500th anniversary?
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that John 6:53-57 doesn't have to be that graphic, but can be understood by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7). That is, when Jesus says "This is my body" (Matthew 26:26), He can mean it.

    Note that nothing requires the exclusion of John 6.

    Note that in John 6:27, the original Greek word (G1035) translated as "meat" can simply mean "food" (2 Corinthians 9:10), which includes fruit. Also, it will be eating the fruit from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7) which will give Christians physical immortality, just as it would have given even fallen Adam physical immortality (Genesis 3:22).

    But Gnosticism would love to wholly-spiritualize it, just as it does everything else.

    That's right.

    But note that the existence of many past antichrists (1 John 2:18) doesn't contradict that there will be an individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who is commonly called the Antichrist, just as on the side of good, the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) doesn't contradict that there is an individual man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is the Son of God (John 20:31).

    Do you personally think that 1 Thessalonians 5:23 is carnal? Or that Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21 is carnal?

    And if not, then why would a literal interpretation of Matthew 26:26 and John 6:53-57 be carnal?

    Note that it hasn't been shown that transubstantiation is nonexistent.

    Also, during Communion, remembrance of Christ's sacrifice (Luke 22:19) can coexist with transubstantiation (Matthew 26:26).

    Note that they do become Christ's flesh and blood (Matthew 26:26-28).

    And in 1 Corinthians 11:29, the original Greek word (G1252) translated as "discerning" can mean just that (Matthew 16:3).

    Then someone can be saved without believing the Gospel that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, before He was resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)?

    How can it be my turn already when you haven't yet answered what was seen in Galatians 3:1?

    Indeed, such as regarding baptism.

    But note that transubstantiation -- which even Lutheranism mistakenly partially-modified into "consubstantiation" -- is based on sola scriptura (e.g. Matthew 26:26-28), not on any papal teaching.

    What I celebrate is sola scriptura (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), which, sadly, even the Reformers didn't actually hold to.

    For I don't celebrate the horrible wars of the Reformation. Nor the murder of Servetus. Nor consubstantiation. Nor the denial (by Calvin) of both transubstantiation and consubstantiation. Nor Luther's anti-Semitism. Nor Luther's rejection of the books of James and Revelation. Nor the continuance of infant baptism. Nor the continuance of non-immersion baptism.

    Nor can I celebrate even sola fide.

    For while initial salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    You demand literality, then object to its unavoidably graphic reality. Some would describe that as irrationality. The scriptural prophylactic is spirituality. But since you reject that, there's no other relief that anyone can offer. Unfortunately in this case, you then fall into the category described in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

    Literality requires zero faith because “what you see is what you get”. Christian faith is inextricably intertwined with spirituality.

    Amen. He certainly does mean it, but unlike you mean it. For He declares in John 6:63b “...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”

    Every mention of physical sustenance in John 6 is only to use it as the basis for contrast with spiritual sustenance e.g. John 6:27, 31-35.

    From the moment of conception, every human being who has ever lived or ever will live is immortal, believer and unbeliever alike, with and without the tree of life. The only difference is the ultimate eternal destiny of that immortality.

    Just as “antignosticism” would love to wholly-literalize it, just as it attempts to do with everything else.

    There have been many antichrists, and there will continue to be many antichrists, until there no longer are.

    Commonly by whom? Not by me. Not by those who understand history. The papacy was the primary antichrist of its era, fulfilling various OT and NT prophecies as recognized by the Reformers. It continues to be an antichrist in various ways, and may well emerge once again as the primary antichrist of a future era. However, there will always be other antichrists as well.

    To reduce confusion, I'm going to discontinue the use of the word “carnal” as I've been meaning it as essentially interchangeable with “literal”, which is the only word I'll now use.

    There is evidence for both literal and spiritual in the above. Any scripture can include literal, spiritual, or both. How does that preclude Matthew 26:26 and John 6:53-57 from being being spiritual? John 6:1 is literal. John 6:2 is literal. John 6:3 is literal. John 6:4 is literal. The clear majority of John 6 is literal. John 6:53-57 are by contrast spiritual.

    Did the disciples literally begin to eat of Christ's literal body? Did Christ draw a cup of literal blood from His veins? Did the disciples drink from that cup of literal blood? Let's be literal.

    From STRONGS:
    to distinguish or separate a person or thing from the rest, in effect equivalent to to prefer, yield to him the preference or honor: τινα, 1 Corinthians 4:7 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 452 (421)); τό σῶμα(τοῦ κυρίου), 1 Corinthians 11:29.

    If a sinner with no prior knowledge of other Scripture sincerely complied with Romans 10:9, and died immediately thereafter with no opportunity to acquaint himself with any other Scripture, he would be saved.

    I see no evidence of transubstantiation in Galatians 3:1. You believe that you do. I can't explain something that I don't see. It is therefore incumbent upon you to explain something you believe you do see.

    Were they as horrible as 50 million deaths over more than 1000 years?

    You've been “disproportionalized”.

    So on balance, should the Reformation have occurred, or should it have not?
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Of course (John 4:24). But also with physicality (John 1:14; 1 John 4:3; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39).

    John 6:63 means that flesh by itself can't give us eternal life. John 6:63b isn't contradicting that Jesus Christ's words can refer to the flesh. For example, Mark 10:33-34 was fulfilled in the flesh (Luke 24:39). So "spirit" in John 6:63 doesn't mean "wholly apart from the flesh".

    Regarding John 6:27, note that it can refer to future, physical sustenance from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7).

    Regarding John 6:31-35, note that the bread there is also physical (John 6:51b).

    That is mistaken. For otherwise, Genesis 3:22 wouldn't have been said. Nor Genesis 2:17. Nor Romans 6:23. For just a few examples.

    Also, sometime after the future Millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which is the second death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will suffer along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

    But the future, eternal, conscious suffering of all non-Christians mustn't be considered as eternal life, but as an eternal, conscious, ongoing, second death (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45b-46).

    Note that antignosticism in no way literalizes, in the sense of physicalizing, everything. For it fully embraces the fact that many things are spiritual (e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:23).

    Indeed, even the physical is ultimately based upon the spiritual.

    That is, what science today is missing, in its search for a "Theory of Everything" which can unify all the physical forces in the universe, is spirit. So by continuing to exclude the whole idea of spirit, science can never hope to understand the universe at its most fundamental level, or what its ultimate origin was: "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit . . . even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all" (Ecclesiastes 11:5).

    The relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, meaning that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny photon of energy. All energy being based on spirit would make sense, for God is a Spirit (John 4:24), and in Him everything consists (Colossians 1:17, Acts 17:28).

    When science's equations regarding such things as the Big Bang singularity, black holes and quantum entanglement require the inclusion of infinities, these infinities shouldn't be seen as "failures", but as pointers to something going beyond the boundaries of the physical: that is, spirit. If science ever becomes able to describe spirit mathematically using proportional numbers rather than infinities, this could lead to new technologies (e.g. spiritual power plants, spiritual bombs), just as when science became able to describe atomic nuclei mathematically, this led to new technologies (e.g. nuclear power plants, nuclear bombs).

    Just as energy consists of both particles (photons) and waves (electromagnetic waves) at the same time, so the basis for all energy, spirit, could consist of both particles (spiritons) and waves at the same time. If spirit is equivalent to consciousness, and consciousness consists of logic, emotion and memory, spiritual waves could consist of 3 sine waves (logic waves, emotion waves and memory waves) interlocked at 60-degree angles, just as electromagnetism consists of 2 sine waves (electric waves and magnetic waves) interlocked at a 90-degree angle. But by our current, strictly-physical-based mathematics, a spiritual wave or spiriton would show up in a calculation as an infinity, and so it could be mistakenly rejected by our current science as a "failure". It's possible that by creating a mathematics which involves 5 dimensions of space-time (instead of 4), the apparently infinite value of a spiritual wave or spiriton could be reduced to a proportional value.

    String Theory has shown that it's mathematically possible that space-time has more than 3 spatial dimensions. Because of observations such as Daniel 5:5, John 20:26b, and Luke 24:31b, the spiritual realm could be a 4th spatial dimension in which spiritual entities are able to move about without being seen by physical entities in our 3 physical spatial dimensions, because our physical eyes and light as we know it extend in only 3 physical spatial dimensions. The spiritual spatial dimension would be higher than our 3 physical spatial dimensions in the same sense that a 3rd physical dimension is higher than 2 physical dimensions. And so from the spiritual dimension, our physical dimensions may appear flat (or flatter), just as from 3 physical dimensions, something in 2 physical dimensions would appear flat. An entity with access to the spiritual spatial dimension could do such things as enter only part of himself into the physical realm (Daniel 5:5), or suddenly appear in a locked room (John 20:26b), or suddenly disappear (Luke 24:31b). This ability would apply not only to spiritual beings (1 Corinthians 15:44, Luke 24:39), but also to any spiritual wave or particle.

    If spiritual particles exist, they could turn out to be "the God Particle" of science. While the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) has reached a high-enough energy level so that a "God Particle" (a Higgs boson) has manifested itself, its observed qualities might ultimately be able to be described only by equations involving infinities, so that its qualities and actions could ultimately be seen as "impossible" and "spooky", instead of science finally admitting to the existence of a substance which is spiritual. And spirit wouldn't have to be seen by scientists as some weird, foreign substance, but as the most fundamental substance of even their own selves (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And could spirit also be the basis for the "dark matter" and "dark energy" which together make up 96% of the universe, but which science can't yet observe directly or explain?

    The really sad and dangerous thing is that even if science does eventually determine that "the God Particle" (or some other particle, detected at even higher LHC energy levels) is a spiritual particle, which science could come to call the "spiriton", some scientists could still refuse to believe in and submit themselves to YHWH God of the Bible, saying that the existence of spirit per se doesn't require that there is one infinite, conscious spirit-being called YHWH God (John 4:24, Mark 12:30, Deuteronomy 6:5). And in its subsequent experiments with spirit, science could come into contact with the evil spirit-being called Lucifer (Satan), who could manifest himself in some future, ultra-high-energy LHC experiment and claim that he is the true, beneficent God of mankind and must be worshipped instead of YHWH. In this way, a nascent spiritual science could be hijacked and employed by Lucifer and his current worshippers as one part of their future deception by which the world will eventually be deceived into consciously and openly worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his human son the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") as God (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), instead of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).


    The unity of mankind which will occur at that future time could be like the unity of mankind which occurred at the time of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:6). And there could even be a future equivalent to the Tower of Babel, which could be built in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For Lucifer could show mankind how to build there a huge tower device, a spiritual machine the size of the Empire State Building, which will be able to send into the sky an incredibly powerful spiritual beam analogous to a laser. Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Lucifer could tell mankind that it will need to employ this huge weapon during an impending battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:14b, Revelation 19:19). Mixing some science fiction with some ancient lies of Gnosticism, Lucifer could tell mankind something like:

    "YHWH will soon come down to the earth in his gigantic spaceship which is shaped like a Borg Cube [cf. Revelation 21:16]. He's coming to enslave you and turn you all into Borg-like drones. But this mighty Tower Device will be able to blow his Borg Cube and him to bits with its spiritual ray. Then we can focus the Tower Device on any point of empty space until it burns in space-time a hole, a portal through which I will lead your spirits out of this vile material universe which YHWH made to be our prison. And I will lead you back up into the purely-spiritual realm of the Pleroma [i.e. Heaven], where you can live as gods in bliss, doing what you please, forever, just as you had done with me for all ages past, before we by mistake fell into YHWH's trap of this material universe".

    Before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming from heaven, Lucifer could prove the power of the Tower Device to mankind by letting the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) use it to blow up some large asteroids and even some moons of other planets, so that mankind will go into its battle against YHWH in full confidence that it will be able to destroy him. But when the battle comes, the device won't work against YHWH (cf. Psalms 21:11, KJV). Instead, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will descend from heaven and take total victory in the battle (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

    That's right.

    For any person is an antichrist who denies Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or who denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or who denies Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist which will animate the future Antichrist has been working since the 1st century AD (1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), animating many antichrists since that time (2 John 1:7).

    The man commonly called the Antichrist will be the fulfillment of the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

    Note that they can be literal.

    Yes (Matthew 26:27-28), by faith (Hebrews 11:1).

    Not sure what your source was, but it wasn't written by Strong, who actually wrote:

    G1252: diakrino --dee-ak-ree'-no; from 1223 and 2919; to separate thoroughly, i.e. (literally and reflex.) to withdraw from, or (by impl.) oppose; fig. to discriminate (by impl., decide), or (reflex.) hesitate: -- contend, make (to) differ( -ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.

    The list of words at the end shows how the word was translated in the KJV.

    And Matthew 16:3 shows that the word can indeed mean "discern".

    Based on what? For 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 shows what is needed to be saved.

    That is, even when what one verse says appears plain, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things it doesn't say, things which would contradict what other verses say. To arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13). Our doctrine must be based on what the entire Bible says (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and not just on what some unqualified verses say.

    An example of an unqualified verse would be John 3:36. We can't say it means that all we have to believe is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. For John 3:36 must be qualified by, for example, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (and vice versa). We have to believe both that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day. So when John 3:36 is qualified, something is added to it, not subtracted from it. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 adds further belief requirements to John 3:36 (and vice versa). 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 doesn't subtract, negate or contradict the belief requirement of John 3:36 (or vice versa).

    Another way that John 3:36 must be qualified is we can't say that it means all that Christians have to do is believe for at least one moment during their lifetime. For John 3:36 must be qualified by other verses which show that Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue to believe to the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23). And this is just one of the con

    Then what is it referring to?

    There is no way to tell. For it depends on whether or not the RCC would have reformed itself eventually. Indeed, the Reformation only hardened the RCC in its ways, inspiring the Counter-Reformation.

    An analogy would be the Cold War. Eventually the USSR reformed itself, under Gorbachev, until it fell apart. It did not fall apart because the U.S. invaded the USSR. Similarly, without the Reformation, a pope could have arisen within the RCC who reformed it, until it fell apart and became again simply the Christian Church, with no man-made denominations (1 Corinthians 1:12-13).
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    It means much more than that, for it asserts specifically and explicitly that “...the flesh profiteth nothing...”. Is Christ referring to the physical realm, or the spiritual realm? Obviously in the physical realm, flesh profits much, arguably everything. So Christ must be referring to the spiritual realm. And therein, as He unequivocally states, the flesh is of no benefit, help, or value (from the Greek definition of “profiteth”).

    It is contradicting exactly that. For in the whole of the remainder of the verse, Christ declares that it is exclusively the spirit which imparts spiritual life. The flesh is declared to be of no benefit, help, or value in that process.

    You'll notice that I never described it as life, but as the eternal destiny, whatever form that takes.

    Agreed. There is no “God Particle”, for any particle has mass and volume and is itself infinitely divisible. Rather, it is ultimately God Himself, for He is both infinite, and infinitesmal. He has no outer limit nor inner limit. And the human mind is incapable of understanding either infinity or infinitesmality.

    Most of the prophetic scripture relating to a predominant singular antichrist has been historically fulfilled in the papacy. The remainder will be fulfilled in a reemergent papacy.
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    What was the necessity for faith if the cup already contained blood?

    There should be a plethora of testimonies today, from those who receive Communion, confirming that it is blood of which they partake. Can you provide at least one such testimony? It's never happened to me. Has it happened to you?

    STRONGS NT 1252: διακρίνω
    to distinguish or separate a person or thing from the rest, in effect equivalent to to prefer, yield to him the preference or honor: τινα, 1 Corinthians 4:7 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 452 (421)); τό σῶμα(τοῦ κυρίου), 1 Corinthians 11:29.

    Do you deny that Romans 10:9 alone has the power to save in the scenario which I described earlier? Note that, unlike Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not mention "confessing with thy mouth", thus could be considered incomplete itself.

    But either passage has the power to save in a scenario of the initial salvation experience.

    God obviously wasn't interested in waiting for the papacy to reform itself, and for it to "make war on and wear out" (Daniel 7:21,25) another 50 million of His saints for another 1000+ years.

    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    That means that flesh by itself profiteth nothing with regard to eternal life (John 6:63, John 6:58).

    It doesn't mean, like the Gnostics would have it, that flesh is no good (1 John 4:3).

    For God created flesh as a very good thing (Genesis 1:31, Luke 24:39).

    Indeed, anyone who has seen his infant child smile and laugh knows how precious our fleshly lives can be; God be thanked (Revelation 4:11).

    Note that nothing in John 6 requires that Jesus is referring only to spiritual life. For we are more than spirits (1 Thessalonians 5:23), just as He is (Luke 24:39).

    Note that to say that everyone "is immortal" means that everyone cannot die, which means that everyone must live forever.

    But, of course, this is mistaken (Romans 6:23), and is even the original lie (Genesis 3:4).

    Note that it hasn't, because, for example, the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell in every situation whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will also be visible because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma: G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (that is, the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason that people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what was shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Satanists today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

    The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

    Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17). And they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image. For those people who agree to do these things, even if they're Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), while those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded by the Antichrist, will be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient Church of all times) at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

    In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (compare also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, and Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one who will cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus himself returned (via reincarnation). But he won't say that he's Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

    Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it's transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, 2 thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

    In an awful coincidence (or maybe it's not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the future Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the nations at the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

    The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (that is, they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Satan will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like how a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes. For Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.

    Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism, also called Satanism. The Antichrist will be both a Satanist, a worshipper of Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ.


    The blood could not be seen (Hebrews 11:1), only the wine.

    That is not Strong's definition (only his word number). Buy a printed Strong's to see for yourself that Strong's actual definition is:

    G1252: diakrino --dee-ak-ree'-no; from 1223 and 2919; to separate thoroughly, i.e. (literally and reflex.) to withdraw from, or (by impl.) oppose; fig. to discriminate (by impl., decide), or (reflex.) hesitate: -- contend, make (to) differ( -ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.

    Also, the list of words at the end shows how the word was actually translated in the KJV. And Matthew 16:3 shows that the word can indeed mean "discern".


    For someone must believe the entire Gospel in order to be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    That is, the Gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is we can be initially saved by believing Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23) and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

    And the Gospel is we can be ultimately saved if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from any sin we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom we've ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and don't blaspheme God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), and don't remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and don't worship the future Antichrist or his image or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

    Of course. The entire Bible must be taken together as a whole (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, Matthew 4:4), not just one verse or passage by itself.

    Based on what?

    Note that nothing requires that it would have done that, just as nothing requires the 50 million figure.

    Also, regarding Daniel 7:21,25, it, like Daniel 12:7b, refers to the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast (Revelation 13:4-18), which reign will occur during the 2nd half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    Daniel 12:7b means at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, He will come to a Church which will have been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the Church and overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the Church that the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' Second Coming will immediately occur, at which time He will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so He/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For He/God won't share this glory with the Church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Right. It also profiteth nothing with regard to spiritual life. (John 6:63)

    It is a very good thing for the fleshly physical life.

    John 6 refers only to spiritual life. Other scripture refers to physical life.

    You'll notice that the words "live" or "life" do not appear in my original comment.

    Be aware that speculations regarding a futurized antichrist originate from deceptions contrived by the apostate papacy's counter-reformation of the 16th century. Francisco Ribera, a Jesuit of the period, was commissioned to devise a doctrine to thwart the Reformation declaration of the papacy itself as antichrist. This was the foundation of futurism, which was expanded upon some time later by another Jesuit, Manuel Lacunza, with early pretrib rapture speculations. Thankfully, none of these doctrines was successful in their intended deceptive purpose until some two centuries later, when they began to infiltrate the true Christian Church. The Reformation doctrines thus achieved God's intended purpose of breaking the spiritual bondage of apostasy, and allowing the light of the New Testament Gospel to shine brightly once again.

    What about Christ's body? How did He attempt to camouflage that?

    You are quoting the abridged definition appearing under "HELPS Word-studies". The definitions and explanations appearing under "STRONGS NT 1252: διακρίνω" are much more detailed and nuanced, and include the associated Scripture verses. Note that Matthew 16:3 does not appear in the same explanatory section as 1 Corinthians 11:29, i.e. "honor" is not part of its definition.

    For initial salvation, it's actually even less onerous than Romans 10:9:
    Acts 2:21
    And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    Romans 10:13
    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    The thief on the cross demonstrated this convincingly. In his case, it was sufficient for both initial and final salvation. And the Lord saved him.

    See my earlier comments regarding the origins of the futurized antichrist.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Christians are concerned with both spiritual and physical life (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39).

    John 6:63 means that flesh by itself profiteth nothing regarding either. For a body without a spirit is dead (James 2:26).

    Note that nothing requires that.

    They don't have to, because "immortal" means exempt from death, which is the same as eternal life.

    Note that the papacy never fulfilled the prophecies connected with the Antichrist, because, for example, the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) has never been fulfilled. It could be an android image of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could order to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.

    Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

    In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma: G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way that this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of neural-network supercomputers running highly advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of the neural networks having been imprinted with the Antichrist's own brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer, and can't tell whether or not it has consciousness, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

    But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's. For it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: his android body could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The unsaved world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

    The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (of Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And to make it easy for everyone in the world to see the Antichrist's image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, tablet, laptop, PC, TV, GPS navigation system and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a lifelike computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

    And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives. For it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

    And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged remotely to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.

    Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones which can be remotely opened secretly to see and hear what's going on around the smartphones at any time. So when the Antichrist's image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (in a brainwashing prison, or through physical torture, if necessary). But if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15), by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

    The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the Antichrist's image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

    Huge beheading structures could be built, by which 20 "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade, which could start-out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it's released it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U", and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out at the same time for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers.

    Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What's left of the bodies could then be stuffed in shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic "Black Pyramid of Death", which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is He didn't, for He created Adam and Eve immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to Christians through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)

    Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center where everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

    This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", some people in each group could really get into the evening worship sessions, and even (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"

    For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with 2 little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist, he could speak forth to her: "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove!". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing that they're merely the concoction of an artificial-intelligence program running in a neural-network supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.

    Also, the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns physically from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up His own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

    Note that Christian Futurism is based on sola scriptura. That is, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us because they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

    The Bible shows that the rapture will be post-trib (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

    His body is the bread: "this is my body" (Matthew 26:26).

    No, I am quoting from Strong's itself. Buy a printed Strong's to see for yourself.

    They are not Strong's definition.

    Indeed, it's not part of Strong's definition; and the KJV does properly translate G1252 as "discern" in both Matthew 16:3 and 1 Corinthians 11:29.

    What source are you using, instead of Strong's itself, and the KJV to which it is tied?

    Indeed, but before the New Covenant Gospel by which we are saved had been fulfilled (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    Also, all obedient believers who died during Old Covenant times are now part of the Church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19 and Ephesians 4:9 show there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus Christ into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).
  18. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

    If anyone teaches differently and does not agree to the sound precepts of our Lord JESUS Christ and to the doctrine that is in keeping with godliness, he is swollen with conceit and understands nothing. Instead, he has a morbid desire for controversies and word-battles, out of which come jealousy, dissension, insults, evil suspicions, and constant wrangling among people whose minds no longer function properly and who have been deprived of the truth, his ungodly babblings and the argumentative opposition is falsely called “knowledge”, many who promise this “knowledge” have missed the mark as far as the faith is concerned.

    The Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, yes, doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy and things taught by demons. Yea, such teachings come from the hypocrisy of liars whose own consciences have been burned as if marked with a red-hot branding iron.
  19. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
    5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth . . .


    Note also:

    2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    2 Timothy 4:1 ¶I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
    2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    1 Timothy 6:20 . . . avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science [gnosis] falsely so called:
    21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith . . .

    The right knowledge/knowing (Greek: gnosis/ginosko) is necessary for people to be saved (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20; 2 Corinthians 4:6; 2 John 1:1b; 2 Peter 1:5,10-11, Luke 1:77).

    But 1 Timothy 6:20b means that what Gnosticism teaches is a knowledge (gnosis) falsely so called (1 Timothy 6:20b; see the original Greek).

    Gnostic writings are rejected by Biblical Christians as being not from God. For Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of the Bible, as an evil god, while Jesus Christ affirms that YHWH is the one true God (Mark 12:29-31, quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18). Also, Gnosticism denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), while Jesus Christ affirms that He is in the flesh (Luke 24:39, John 1:14, Romans 1:3, Hebrews 2:16-17). Also, Gnosticism claims that the Old Testament is false because it was written by YHWH and His followers, while Jesus Christ affirms that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Also, even where Gnostic writings teach something not in the Bible which doesn't contradict anything which Jesus taught, the Gnostic writings still don't pass the test of Biblical Christians being able to recognize if something said is from Jesus (John 10:4,27), or only from "a stranger" (John 10:5). Biblical Christians are able to do this because they have received a measure of God's own Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11-13), Jesus Christ's own mind (1 Corinthians 2:16).

    Gnosticism was one of the greatest enemies of the early Church. And Gnostic ideas will be revived worldwide by the future Antichrist, who will make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). As a Gnostic, the Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And he will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will also deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

    Again, the "gnosis" of Gnosticism is the so-called "knowledge" which Christians must be careful not to be deceived by: "avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of gnosis falsely so called" (1 Timothy 6:20; see the original Greek).

    1 Timothy 4:1 ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
    3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
    4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
    5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
    6 ¶If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.


    1 Timothy 4:1 means that some people who have faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel will depart from that faith (Luke 8:13; 2 Timothy 4:2-4, Hebrews 6:4-8).

    1 Timothy 4:1-3 will be fulfilled in our future during the reign of the Antichrist, who will teach Gnosticism (1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7), which requires celibacy and vegetarianism.


    It is sometimes asked: "But wasn't man originally vegetarian?"

    The answer is Yes, insofar as in the earliest days of mankind described in the Bible, God allowed man to eat only plants (Genesis 1:29). It was only after Noah's Flood that God allowed Noah and his family to start eating animals as well as plants, and they could eat any animal that moved (Genesis 9:3).

    Also, in the future, on the New Earth, God will miraculously make it so all animals will be herbivores (Isaiah 65:17,25).

    But beware the idea (which is sometimes put forth) that Christians must be vegetarians:

    1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

    Here the enforced vegetarianism, like the enforced non-marriage ("Forbidding to marry" in 1 Timothy 4:3), refers to what the future Antichrist will bring upon the world. For he will be a Gnostic (1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7), and Gnosticism forbids eating animals, and forbids marriage.


    Regarding forbidding marriage, it is sometimes asked: "Since it is wrong for Christians to be against miscegenation, isn't it also wrong for them to be against same-sex marriage?"

    The answer is No, for while the Bible isn't against miscegenation (Numbers 12), it is against homosexuality (Romans 1:26-27). So when the U.S. government struck down anti-miscegenation state laws in the southern U.S., it wasn't going against Biblical Christianity. But if the government ever forces Christians to support same-sex marriages, it will be going against the Bible. And so it will become anti-Christian, helping to prepare the way for the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and his Satanic, one-world religion (Revelation 13:4-18).

    One part of the future Antichrist's (Gnostic) religion will be to forbid marriages outright (1 Timothy 4:3). And legalizing same-sex marriage is just the first step toward this goal. For the next step will be to legalize polygamy, that is, to allow whatever number of people, whether male or female, in any combination, to enter "group marriages" (for example, consisting of 3 women, or 3 men, or 6 women and 4 men, etc.). Then the next step will be to declare the whole idea of marriage as "obsolete". Indeed, it will even be declared to be "evil" from the Gnostic (that is, the Antichrist) point of view (cf. 1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7), which sees the whole idea of a physical existence, especially one which forms new people into physical bodies (that is, which forms offspring through marriages) as an abomination.

    This isn't to say that all people who support same-sex marriages are Satanic Gnostics. Instead, some people could simply (yet still mistakenly) think that God supports homosexuality, just as many U.S. Southerners of old simply (yet still mistakenly) thought that God supports racism.
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    The power consumption demands alone of the electrical and electronic infrastructure required to implement such a scheme render it unattainable, not to mention the vulnerability to failure in power generation infrastructure, hacking, EMP attack, solar activity, computer hardware and software failure, etc. The vagaries of increasingly extreme climate change alone make reliable power generation increasingly unpredictable, with rising temperatures, sea levels, storm intensities, and other meteorological, climatological, and geophysical factors militating against technological reliability. Check out Puerto Rico for the most recent "endarkening" example. Insofar as futurism considers antichrist to be a global phenomenon, the scheme and its necessary infrastructure would need to be designed in secret and implemented simultaneously across the globe wherever there is human habitation. This is an utter impossibility. How would antichrist impose its will on Bedouin nomads in the midst of the Arabian desert? Or reindeer herders in the remote reaches of Siberia? Or sparse settlements on the plethora of small islands scattered across the world's oceans?

    Scripture informs us in John's epistles that antichrist is an exclusively human spiritual condition which has afflicted the true Church since its establishment. Speculation about a technologically impossible antichrist finds no mention or support in the word of God.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017