ViaCrucis

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I am part of NO denomination,

Well, I don't believe that. But neither did I mention anything about denominations. I mentioned eschatological frameworks.

I follow the teachings of Christ according to the understanding given to me by the Holy Spirit. I have no negative predisposition to other beliefs but I do use the words and Jesus as my point of reference.

It always strikes me as interesting how many people claim they have received direct, personal insight and knowledge from God, and yet they never seem to agree with anyone else who claims to have direct, personal insight and knowledge from God.

It's almost as though it's not from God at all, but is instead merely human opinion and tradition.

we were thought differently but we can still converse. I am judging no one just trying to understand. for the bibles i tend to follow the one closest to the original texts, to me the KJV, NKJV, and in french, Carmpon and Louis Second versions.

Blessings.

Recognizing one's own presuppositions and biases is an important first step at avoiding making eisegetical blunders when reading the Bible. Denying that we have such biases will only lead us to make all kinds of mistakes when reading God's word.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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All of Scripture should be read contextually, using good hermeneutical principles in order to do good exegesis. A part of that is recognizing what we are reading. Usually we're pretty good with this, we recognize that the Psalms are different than the Epistles of St. Paul; we recognize that Proverbs and Ecclesiastes isn't the same thing as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

The trouble often happens when we fail to recognize what we are reading when we get to books like the Apocalypse (aka the Revelation) or the book of Daniel.

We're pretty good recognizing poetry, or epistle, or narrative, etc. Those are types of writing which we have a lot of familiarity with. When I read one of Shakespeare's sonnets or plays, I don't get that confused with, say, a biography about Winston Churchill. A book on the history of the American Civil War is a kind of writing I get, and so is poetry by John Milton or T.S. Elliot.

But a form of writing which we are far less familiar with is apocalypse. It's not a literary form that exists in modern times. And when we come across it, as we do in the Bible, we don't necessarily know what to do with it--not without learning about it. Apocalypse, as a form of writing, doesn't really fit into any of the boxes that we are more familiar with: poetry, history, biography, etc. It's a very different kind of writing, one that relies on symbols and loud, graphic imagery to convey meaning--symbols and imagery which very often would have been very familiar for the original target audience, but which be very difficult for us to understand. And that leads us to wildly diverse interpretations. So when it comes to apocalypse, in a lot of ways it's even more important to focus on context, and to not try and take it too literally--because it's not meant to be literal. it's meant to be loud, big, and describe people, places, things, and ideas with highly impactful language: Jesus as a Lamb with lots of eyes; or the devil as a terrifying dragon, Jesus returning in judgment as riding a horse into battle with a sword coming out of His mouth.

That's apocalyptic language. Sometimes, when we are lucky, the authors tell us what some things mean, or maybe just partly. For example, in the book of Daniel we have Daniel as an interpreter of dreams, and so dreams and visions are explained, at least partly. The statue of bronze, iron, etc is plainly described as a series of kingdoms or empires--but doesn't go so far as to identify which. In the Apocalypse of St. John the angel explains to John what the vision of the prostitute riding the beast is, the prostitue--called Babylon--is a city on seven hills (which, I'd argue, is actually a very clear and obvious statement about what city it is, but still many have their own views). Very often, we simply aren't given an answer, or even a hint, as to the meaning of the visions and images: the monsters that come out of the abyss are these monstrous human-faced locusts--what's that about (I have no idea, and I doubt anyone else alive today does either).

So when reading apocalyptic literature, recognize what you are reading. It's not going to fit into any of the boxes that you ordinarily put writing, it's a very special and unique kind of thing, and needs to be recognized as such. That's part of using good exegetical skills to read and understand God's word.

-CryptoLutheran
The explanations of Da 2 should give us a good idea of how different the meanings are from the visions.
 
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Clare73

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to me when people mention the end times it is the events preceding Jesus return ( second advent) both the O.T and N.T speak of this, revelations goes further and explains the last kingdom of Heaven where GOD will be with us forever. this last Kingdom will come after the millennial kingdom, see rev 20 and onwards.
The millennial kingdom could well be the church age (where the first resurrection is from spiritual death into eternal life in the new birth), as the statue in Da 2 was four earthly kingdoms.
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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There's two problems I have with this interpretation of yours here:

1) The assumption that it is about the end of history; rather than perhaps the end of something else. After all, the words written here aren't sealed, are they? You're reading them with your own eyes. So at some point the words were unsealed. This makes a lot of sense if we understand that the principle time-frame for what Daniel is talking about (not EVERYTHING Daniel talks about, but the principle time of a lot of what Daniel is talking about) is the Maccabean era.

2) More important than that, however, is the danger into thinking that I have now some special insight into Scripture, because "it's the end now" (says who?) and therefore even though the Scriptures were not understood by anyone else before me, I now can tell everyone what they "really mean". That's how cults get started.

-CryptoLutheran
says who... A few years back I had a confirmation that a prophecy is about to be accomplished, you will not believe be as you tend to intellectualize and categorize but here is the message I got, it lasted several days I was warned of Jacobs trouble, yes that prophecy and also an exodus, yes Jacobs trouble, for more than a month these words flashed in my mind over and over, that had never happened to me nor since. It is about the end days and the remnants of Israel to return by the hundreds of thousands, or millions, it has started or will very shortly, the return of the remnants of Israel, the lost tribes scattered about the planet, the lord knows where they are and they will be called back the end times are set in motion it is certain. many believers are unknowingly remnants of Israel. so yes I had special insight in scripture and still do. That is what the Holy Spirit does to people who truly believe in Yeshua.

Peace
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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Well, I don't believe that. But neither did I mention anything about denominations. I mentioned eschatological frameworks.



It always strikes me as interesting how many people claim they have received direct, personal insight and knowledge from God, and yet they never seem to agree with anyone else who claims to have direct, personal insight and knowledge from God.

It's almost as though it's not from God at all, but is instead merely human opinion and tradition.



Recognizing one's own presuppositions and biases is an important first step at avoiding making eisegetical blunders when reading the Bible. Denying that we have such biases will only lead us to make all kinds of mistakes when reading God's word.

-CryptoLutheran
truly I follow Christ only and am not part of any church, I am guided by the Spirit and have no boasting to do here or anywhere, I am just following Christ when he says to announce the gospel of the good news about the Kingdom of Heaven, I try to help where i can if people let me that is all, I am nothing special Just a believer in Christ. If I have a bias it is towards Christ and Our Father in Heaven only. The politics and religions of men do not interest me, it is why am ignorant of all these different religious currents.

Peace be upon you.
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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The explanations of Da 2 should give us a good idea of how different the meanings are from the visions.
Dan 2 visions needed an interpreter but some other prophecies will become clear when knowledge increases.

Look at Gaza right now and the prophecies about it, all prophecies will become true in their due time.
 
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ViaCrucis

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truly I follow Christ only and am not part of any church,

Well, not being part of a church isn't a good thing. But that aside, are you really going to claim that at no point in your life did anyone talk to you about the Bible, that you spontaneously became a Christian without anyone preaching the Gospel, without hearing anyone teach or talk about things about Christianity. And that everything you believe happened without any contact with any Christians of any kind?

I am guided by the Spirit and have no boasting to do here or anywhere,

I want you to consider what I'm saying very seriously: If you are in a room with 9 other people, and all of you claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, that you are "just following Christ", and if you all disagree with one another, are you going to say that you are the only one in that group to actually be guided by the Spirit?

I am just following Christ when he says to announce the gospel of the good news about the Kingdom of Heaven, I try to help where i can if people let me that is all, I am nothing special Just a believer in Christ. If I have a bias it is towards Christ and Our Father in Heaven only. The politics and religions of men do not interest me, it is why am ignorant of all these different religious currents.

Peace be upon you.

You may be ignorant of certain things, but that doesn't make you immune to movements, ideas, and traditions. You may be unaware of the way you have been influenced in your faith, but you are influenced.

Here's just one example: According to you, how many books are in the Bible? Whatever answer you give to that question, why do you believe that?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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Well, not being part of a church isn't a good thing. But that aside, are you really going to claim that at no point in your life did anyone talk to you about the Bible, that you spontaneously became a Christian without anyone preaching the Gospel, without hearing anyone teach or talk about things about Christianity. And that everything you believe happened without any contact with any Christians of any kind?



I want you to consider what I'm saying very seriously: If you are in a room with 9 other people, and all of you claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, that you are "just following Christ", and if you all disagree with one another, are you going to say that you are the only one in that group to actually be guided by the Spirit?



You may be ignorant of certain things, but that doesn't make you immune to movements, ideas, and traditions. You may be unaware of the way you have been influenced in your faith, but you are influenced.

Here's just one example: According to you, how many books are in the Bible? Whatever answer you give to that question, why do you believe that?

-CryptoLutheran
Where I live in the province of Quebec, the majority if churches are catholic, I was raised in the catholic school system, totally imperfect and contradicts the bible, from a young age I understood that they were not a proper religion but a religion of men not following scripture, once i read the bible it confirmed my suspicions and I have since then rejected their teachings as being mostly false. I wish I could find a church but so far none. But I have learned to live with it truly, I Follow Jesus teachings and no one else.

As to know who amongst many has the Spirit, I verify with Jesus words, all we need to know, he said, WE cannot go wrong if I follow him.

I know I am ignorant about many things but again I have the best Guide possible and understand the corruption in thoughts that can occur, it is why I find it difficult sometimes to read certain posts, a mix of truth and lies that seem right but hide deception, Yes I see this and am careful.

About the Books in the Bible I never counted but know it has changed over time, I am aware there some books are missing, I know also that MEN choose what books go in the bible. I am aware of corruption within certain books, the Spirit guides you when reading, the O.T. is pretty much uniform in wisdom and style and form but not the N.T. I believe some books do not belong in the N.T and are a test of faith as they contradict Jesus teachings.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Where I live in the province of Quebec, the majority if churches are catholic, I was raised in the catholic school system, totally imperfect and contradicts the bible, from a young age I understood that they were not a proper religion but a religion of men not following scripture, once i read the bible it confirmed my suspicions and I have since then rejected their teachings as being mostly false. I wish I could find a church but so far none. But I have learned to live with it truly, I Follow Jesus teachings and no one else.

As to know who amongst many has the Spirit, I verify with Jesus words, all we need to know, he said, WE cannot go wrong if I follow him.

I know I am ignorant about many things but again I have the best Guide possible and understand the corruption in thoughts that can occur, it is why I find it difficult sometimes to read certain posts, a mix of truth and lies that seem right but hide deception, Yes I see this and am careful.

About the Books in the Bible I never counted but know it has changed over time, I am aware there some books are missing, I know also that MEN choose what books go in the bible. I am aware of corruption within certain books, the Spirit guides you when reading, the O.T. is pretty much uniform in wisdom and style and form but not the N.T. I believe some books do not belong in the N.T and are a test of faith as they contradict Jesus teachings.

Here's a question for you: Should we believe what Jesus' Apostles and first followers believed?

And if you discovered the Apostles believed differently than you, would you change your position, or would you still go by what you claim the Holy Spirit has guided you to believe?

I really hope you answer, or at least really think about those questions.

But I want you to also understand what I've seen you now claim in this thread:

Here is a list of trustworthy sources according to what you've said so far in this thread:

The Church
The Bible

You

Don't you see something wrong with this?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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Dan 2 visions needed an interpreter but some other prophecies will become clear when knowledge increases.

Look at Gaza right now and the prophecies about it, all prophecies will become true in their due time.
Unless "knowledge will increase" simply refers to the computer age.
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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Here's a question for you: Should we believe what Jesus' Apostles and first followers believed?

And if you discovered the Apostles believed differently than you, would you change your position, or would you still go by what you claim the Holy Spirit has guided you to believe?

I really hope you answer, or at least really think about those questions.

But I want you to also understand what I've seen you now claim in this thread:

Here is a list of trustworthy sources according to what you've said so far in this thread:

The Church
The Bible

You

Don't you see something wrong with this?

-CryptoLutheran
Yes i see something wrong with this, you! Good luck krypto.
 
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