When does the end times begin?

[jgr]

Different text type for starters.
Different Context of Audience.
Different Context of Situation effecting the Psalmist only, as compared to an actual global event affecting all of humanity, all of animals and plant life.

As the Psalmist says The Lord is my Refuge and my Rock, protecting me from all my enemies. David uses hyperboles in his poetry and oratory, to emphasize, to evoke strong feelings, and to create strong impressions.

I think he achieves this quite eloquently, don't you think? given the text type we are dealing with

Hyperbole
Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. In rhetoric, it is also sometimes known as auxesis. In poetry and oratory, it emphasizes, evokes strong feelings, and creates strong impressions.

Isaiah 13 is a completely different book, different text type, different context of audience, different context of situation.

When God declares something, there is no hyperbole or pun intended.

Pun
The pun, also called paronomasia, is a form of word play that exploits multiple meanings of a term, or of similar-sounding words, for an intended humorous or rhetorical effect.

12I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.

Is that phrase a pun?
Which sane person wants to make a pun out of God's declaration?
Either God is for real or he is saying it as a joke, not to be taken seriously, so which one is it?

13Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.

Unlike the Psalmist who uses hyperbole and play on words in his poetic mix, God is no joker.

How could one even make a one to one comparison between Psalm 18 and Isaiah 13.

I fully concur that David in Psalms 18 is employing a metaphoric apocalyptic idiom to describe his personal experience of deliverance; and that there is nothing cosmologically literal involved.

However, a portion of that description includes phenomena which are global in scope, and not dissimilar from descriptions in portions of Isaiah 13.

Psalms 18
7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

Why are these global phenomena metaphoric in Psalms 18, but literal in Isaiah 13?

 

[keras]

Can you not tell the difference between the text type of the Psalmist and the Prophet?

Look closer......discern that David is talking about himself and how God moves Heaven and Earth as a hyperbole to protect him from his enemies.

You can dismiss prophecy from the Psalms, but I don't.
There is plenty more in the Psalms, to warn us of what God has planned and how we should act when it does: Psalms 23 and Psalms 91 for examples.

 

[keras]

Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, the fire comes from the Son, instead of the sun.

I'm done with you BaBerean; you just twist what I say and jump to wrong conclusions.
Jesus is NOT on fire when He Returns, that belief is just foolishness.
Many prophesies say He will SEND fire on His Day of wrath. Amos 1, 2 Peter 3:7, Malachi 4:1, +

 

[The Times]

Why are these global phenomena metaphoric in Psalms 18, but literal in Isaiah 13?

Because the Psalmist is copying them word for word from the prophets.

 

[The Times]

You can dismiss prophecy from the Psalms, but I don't.
There is plenty more in the Psalms, to warn us of what God has planned and how we should act when it does: Psalms 23 and Psalms 91 for examples.

They are a cut and paste from the prophets and are meant to be used as a hyperbole, a play on theme, to arouse interest and convey context of situation of the Psalmist of the Song.

 

[keras]

They are a cut and paste from the prophets and are meant to be used as a hyperbole, a play on theme, to arouse interest and convey context of situation of the Psalmist of the Song.

Here is a good Psalm/prophecy:
Psalms 68:1-35 Let the Lord arise, let His enemies be scattered. Let those who hate Him be gone! Let the Lord’s enemies perish in His fiery judgement1, like wax before a fire and as smoke is dispersed.

Lord: summon Your strength, use it now as You did for Your people long ago. Rebuke those wild beasts, those proud and arrogant sinners; all those who love violence and war2. All power and strength belongs to the Lord, enthroned on high. Cleanse now Your holy Land and give strength to Your people, we pray.

The Lord says: I shall bring My enemies together into the place of slaughter, from wherever they are. I will smite them there, their blood will flow out so that you can bathe your feet in it and your dogs will lick it up.

When the Lord speaks out in mighty thunder1, kings and their armies will flee in terror. When the Almighty scatters those evil peoples and clears the holy Land, snow will fall on Mt Zalman3.

We sing the praises of our Saviour and Redeemer. He who rides on the clouds, He is our Father and the defender of His righteous people, but those who refuse to acknowledge Him will remain in the desert4.

When the Lord saves His people, there will be thousands of vehicles for them5, as He leads them to safety through the barren desert. The earth will tremble and rain will pour down to replenish the holy Land6. There Your people will settle, for in Your goodness Lord, You provide for the poor and needy.

The procession of all Israel comes into view; into the Holy city. First the singers, then the musicians. The little tribe of Benjamin will lead, with Judah, Zebulon and Naphtali following, marching on their way the Zion’s holy mountain: on to the Temple in Jerusalem. Kings will bring gifts and envoys will come from far off nations to honour and praise Israel’s God. His Majesty and blessing is over the holy Land , the Lord enthroned in heaven will give strength to His people7.
Praise be to God!
Ref: REB, CJB. Psalms 68 in a chronological order.

1/The Lord’s judgement by fire; an earth directed CME explosion of the sun: Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 66:15-16, Revelation 6:12-17, 2 Peter 3:10

2/ The Islamic peoples who love war and death: Ezekiel 35:5-6, Proverbs 1:16
3/ Mt Zalman – near Shechem. [Nablus] This detail informs us that the Day of the Lord’s wrath will happen during a Northern winter. Judges 9:48, Matthew 24:20

4/ All of the Lord’s people are gathered, then ‘passed under the rod of judgement’. Ezekiel 20:35-38…’those who revolt and rebel will not enter the Land’. Deuteronomy 32:36

5/ The Lord will provide transport! Isaiah 66:20, Psalms 107:1-32, Isaiah 60:1-9
6/ All of the holy Land will be regenerated and become fertile: Ezekiel 36:8-11, Isaiah 35:1-2, Isaiah 66:12, Joel 2:21-26, Amos 9:13-15

7/ Strength and comfort to His people: Isaiah 40:29-31, Jer. 31:21-26, Zech. 10:12 Note that the Lord remains ‘enthroned in heaven’. The glorious Return comes later. The Lord's true Christian people, from every tribe, [of Israel] every nation, [of the world] every language, [ethnic group] will gather in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9. THEY will build the Temple, Zechariah 6:15. THEY will elect leaders, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11. THEY will greet Jesus after all that is prophesied takes place, with the shout: Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!

 

[The Times]

Revelation 7:9. THEY will build the Temple,

If they build a temple of brick and mortar in the Middle East, then what becomes of the spiritual Temple of the Holy Spirit, where the Living Stone sacrifices are being offered daily?

The Daily Sacrifice is removed right?

 

[jgr]

Because the Psalmist is copying them word for word from the prophets.

It's not a verbatim copy, but the language is sufficiently similar in both instances to be recognized as from the same genre.

And that genre is the same in both instances: Metaphoric apocalyptic idiomatic.

In Psalms 18, David is describing personal deliverance from destruction.

In Isaiah 13, Isaiah is describing Babylon's date with destruction.

Metaphorically, apocalyptically, idiomatically.

 

[keras]

If they build a temple of brick and mortar in the Middle East, then what becomes of the spiritual Temple of the Holy Spirit, where the Living Stone sacrifices are being offered daily?

The Daily Sacrifice is removed right?

The Spiritual Temple that we Christians represent in this era, remains.
This does not preclude a physical Temple being built in Jerusalem, one that the Anti-Christ will desecrate, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and the godless peoples will trample for 42 months, Revelation 11:1-2
Offerings will be made in it, that the AC will stop. Daniel 9:27 When Jesus Returns, the Temple will be cleansed and He will reign from it for 1000 years.

 

[jgr]

The Spiritual Temple that we Christians represent in this era, remains.
This does not preclude a physical Temple being built in Jerusalem, one that the Anti-Christ will desecrate, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and the godless peoples will trample for 42 months, Revelation 11:1-2
Offerings will be made in it, that the AC will stop. Daniel 9:27 When Jesus Returns, the Temple will be cleansed and He will reign from it for 1000 years.

The temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a "naos" spiritual temple, i.e. the Church and its members.

There is no antichrist in Daniel 9:27.

 

[jgr]

Media, Elam, Persia, all are now modern Iran.

Their genes are found in every human being on the planet. Are we all going to rise up against nonexistent Babylonians?

In addition, Babylonian genes are also ubiquitous in the human race. Are we all going to rise up against ourselves?

 

[The Times]

It's not a verbatim copy, but the language is sufficiently similar in both instances to be recognized as from the same genre.

And that genre is the same in both instances: Metaphoric apocalyptic idiomatic.

In Psalms 18, David is describing personal deliverance from destruction.

In Isaiah 13, Isaiah is describing Babylon's date with destruction.

Metaphorically, apocalyptically, idiomatically.

Isaiah 13 is not using play on words, it is an open declaration which cannot be spiritualised outside of the natural realm affecting all of humanity, not just Babylon.

 

[jgr]

Isaiah 13 is not using play on words, it is an open declaration which cannot be spiritualised outside of the natural realm affecting all of humanity, not just Babylon.

Where does Psalms 18 use a play on words in describing cosmological phenomena?

 

[DavidPT]

The temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a "naos" spiritual temple, i.e. the Church and its members.

There is no antichrist in Daniel 9:27.

From my perspective of these things, at least you are half correct, which is better than not being correct at all, yet not as good as being entirely correct. I agree with you about 2 Thessalonians 2:4. I disagree with you about Daniel 9:27. If 2 Thessalonians 2:4 doesn't have to mean in the literal sense, why can't the same be true of Daniel 9:27? IOW Daniel 9:27 is further expanding on this----and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary---and that a literal city and a literal sanctuary is not what is meant.

 

[BABerean2]

From my perspective of these things, at least you are half correct, which is better than not being correct at all, yet not as good as being entirely correct. I agree with you about 2 Thessalonians 2:4. I disagree with you about Daniel 9:27. If 2 Thessalonians 2:4 doesn't have to mean in the literal sense, why can't the same be true of Daniel 9:27? IOW Daniel 9:27 is further expanding on this----and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary---and that a literal city and a literal sanctuary is not what is meant.

Maybe because there is no antecedent for an antichrist in Daniel chapter 9, and there was no "gap" in the 490 year prophecy mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

Also, we know that based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jewish people for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
The 70th week was fulfilled during the first century.

Also, there is nothing in the New Testament about modern Jews coming to salvation outside of the Church.

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal to Daniel the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah and then he forgot to even mention the New Covenant?

The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28. The same concept is found in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

.

 

[Jipsah]

The Daily Sacrifice is removed right?

A very long time ago.

 

[The Times]

Where does Psalms 18 use a play on words in describing cosmological phenomena?

I have been saved from my enemies.

4The cords of death entangled me; the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me.

5The cords of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me.

7The earth trembled and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because he was angry.

Metaphor as to say, God moved Hesven and earth for me, in order to save me from my enemies.

8Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.

9He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.

10He mounted the cherubim and flew;

These play on words are hyperboles, meant to invoke emotions.

God when declaring Judgement, does not use play on words or hyperboles. The Psalmist does.

 

[Jipsah]

This does not preclude a physical Temple being built in Jerusalem, one that the Anti-Christ will desecrate

Can't desecrate what would in itself be an abomination.

 

[Jipsah]

Just did the calculation; the earth will speed up from 66,000 mph to 67.500 mph.

And there we see what happens when we begin "interpreting" Scripture to suit our own presuppositions.

 

[jgr]

From my perspective of these things, at least you are half correct, which is better than not being correct at all, yet not as good as being entirely correct. I agree with you about 2 Thessalonians 2:4. I disagree with you about Daniel 9:27. If 2 Thessalonians 2:4 doesn't have to mean in the literal sense, why can't the same be true of Daniel 9:27? IOW Daniel 9:27 is further expanding on this----and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary---and that a literal city and a literal sanctuary is not what is meant.

Historically, the literal city and sanctuary were destroyed (Daniel 9:26). If they are symbolic, what are they symbolizing?