What's your opinion?

Personally, the concept of "false teachers" have been with us since the beginning of time and why you need to know the difference between truth and error. How do you do that? Study and know what the Bible says. So you not wasting your time with the chaff of the world.

Enuff said.

Originally posted by Apologist
Did you even read what I quoted?

Joyce Meyers said: "God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, “Let Him go.” Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus….He was resurrected from the dead--the first born-again man."

Do you actually believe that demons were tormenting Jesus Christ and that He became "the first born-again man"?

My goodness that is total blasphemy!

Jesus did not go to hell when he died.
He told the thief on the cross:

“Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

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Did Jesus ascend to heaven that night?

God is all places at all times, Jesus   God/man the Son of God, and the Son of man, paid the price not only on the cross, but like Jonah, did three days inside the belly of a fish or whale. While on the cross, He cried out 'My Father, My Father, why has thou forsaken Me."  Which means He was seperated for that time, to pay for the price that we couldn't pay. Then He came back and talked to the disciples before ascending to heaven.

So you see Joyce was talking about Jesus "son of man" part of Jesus.The new Adam, who undid what the old one did.

Joyce wasn't and isn't saying that Christ ins't God. Christ is whos corner stone? Ours. So what does that mean? That means we are to be just like HIm, in maturity, strength, and love. He set the example for us to follow. Now there is a difference between God and man, but this is just one thing that we must do, "be born again".

Something tells me that you don't have those tapes, but that you only have certian things said on a collection of "false teachers". Where they don't give the messages, but give phrases hear and there, to try and convict a person without trial, without there testimony.

I remember Hank Hanagram(sp?) would do this all the time, thats all I ever heard him talk about. My brother fell for this, and was influenced by it. But later on he heard Hank apologize, for what I am not exactly sure, but I do know it was from this direction.

Joyce loves Jesus, she knows that He is God, and says so.

God told me to tell you that Joyce is annointed and is on fire with the Holy Ghost. God is doing great things through Joyce Meyers.

Just the other day, a friend was struggleing, and I talked to her, and God told me to give her my walkman and let her listen to Joyce. And what do you know?  Joyce  told her what to do about her problem.

Just wanted to put in my .02 worth:

"Name it and claim it", IMO, is tantamount to us telling God what to do.

"God, I've been serving you, and I go to church all the time, and I've been a good Christian, and I witness to people, and I do all You want me to do, so You have to give me what I pray for!"

Sorry.  Ain't gonna happen.

They seem to completely forget that God's will is to be done; and we should pray for His will to be done regardless of what WE want. 

Name HIM and claim HIM!!!

Apologist: The idea that Jesus descended into hell before being resurrected is a Catholic doctrine, so it's certainly not blasphemy!

Jesus cannot have conquered death unless he actually died. Otherwise he just cheated or skipped death and he was not really "ressurected". So he did descend to Sheol and preached the Gospel to the dead (this is from the Bible but I don't remember the exact reference) before ascending to Heaven.

"Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Heaven."

Even if you put the comma in the standard place, Jesus also said that "this generation" would not die before he returned. So clearly there's something more to his words than the surface interpretation.

-Chris

Originally posted by SUNSTONE


I remember Hank Hanagram(sp?) would do this all the time, thats all I ever heard him talk about. My brother fell for this, and was influenced by it. But later on he heard Hank apologize, for what I am not exactly sure, but I do know it was from this direction.

[/B]

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It is Hank Hanegraaff of the Bible Answer Man program and I have been listening to him for about 7 years.
I agree with him and am glad that there are some people who still stand up for truth.

God told me to tell you that Joyce is annointed and is on fire with the Holy Ghost. God is doing great things through Joyce Meyers.

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God's word tells me she is teaching apostacy and His Word is the measuring rod of all truth....not your subjective feelings!

Originally posted by kern
Apologist: The idea that Jesus descended into hell before being resurrected is a Catholic doctrine, so it's certainly not blasphemy!

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You misunderstand what I said Chris.

I did not say it is unbiblical to say that he descended into hades as the Apostles Creed states. I was speaking of the teaching that demons tortured him as these word of faith people teach. I am sure you would agree that is completely blasphemous.

God Bless

Ah, OK. Thanks for the clarification.

-Chris

I don't bother with so-called "Christian TV." It's junk.

If there were ever a network that was really devoted to Christ, then I would watch. Until then, I can find other things to do.

Originally posted by kern
Ah, OK. Thanks for the clarification.

-Chris

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No problem my friend.

What I think the problem is with people believing that Jesus went to hell is because of a useage of the wrong English word in the Apostles Creed.
The word rendered "Hell" in the creed should have been "Hades" which is the abode of the dead and is comprised of two seperate places as described in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke chapter 16.

When Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be with Him that day in paradise He was speaking of the place that the redeemed went to which is also called "Abraham's bosom."

The word "Hell" that people normally think about is 'Gehenna' and is the final place of torment for the unregenerate.

God Bless

Originally posted by waterwizard
Just wanted to put in my .02 worth:

"Name it and claim it", IMO, is tantamount to us telling God what to do.

"God, I've been serving you, and I go to church all the time, and I've been a good Christian, and I witness to people, and I do all You want me to do, so You have to give me what I pray for!"

Sorry.  Ain't gonna happen.

They seem to completely forget that God's will is to be done; and we should pray for His will to be done regardless of what WE want. 

Name HIM and claim HIM!!!

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Now I need to do some claification of what you believe is the true "name it claim it".

1. You don't have to be good, goto church, or read your bible to do the "name it claim it" style of praying. It isn't something that you have worked for, in fact you don't deserve it. Jesus paid for it, and has given to you freely by His grace, just like salvation.

2. Take a look at my sig, about you have not because you ask not. See how it finishs. If you want money to spend it on yourself, you won't get it, if you want money to bless others, and to take care and provide for you family, you will get it, UNLESS, you can't handle the responsibilitys of it. The bible says "a wise man leaves an inheritance to his grandchildren" in proverbs(sorry don't have my bible here ) It also says, if you listen to the Lord you will not lack anything, and your barns will be filled,and your wine vats also will be filled. Also check out Malichi about titheing.

3. You believe that name it claim it is telling God what to do. So tell me why didn't Peter ask God to heal the crippled man? He said, " I don't have much, but what I do have I will give it to you, now rise up and walk".  Why did Jesus say "If you say to this mountain, be cast into the sea, and do not doubt in your heart, this mountain will be cast into the sea"?  Jesus said bless and curse not, why? Because your words are powerful, by the grace of God. Life and death are in the power of the tongue.

The best way I can explian it is, by natural means. Ok you goto an electric company and pay for electric. They turn on the electric, now you go home and there it is, power in your house. You have everything given to you to turn on the light, all you have to do is hit the switch, because you have authority to do it.  But instead of doing it, you call up the power company, and beg them to turn on the light, saying " oh please, turn on the light for me". Guess what? There not going to do it, no matter how much you ask, and beg, because you have everything you need to do it yourself.

Jesus said go and make disciples out of all the nations, cast demons, and heal the sick(I think that last part is there ??). So we have authority by grace through faith to get things done here on earth.

Now this is a rough way of explaining how "name it claim it" works. You could paint many things that could make it look evil, but there are many things that Gods will is very clear, and He wants you by faith, to change them through prayer.

So because it is such a big topic, ask alot of questions, and even paint whatever kind of situation you want. And I will try to line it up with the word of God.

Originally posted by Apologist
It is Hank Hanegraaff of the Bible Answer Man program and I have been listening to him for about 7 years.
I agree with him and am glad that there are some people who still stand up for truth.



God's word tells me she is teaching apostacy and His Word is the measuring rod of all truth....not your subjective feelings!

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God talking to me runs much deeper than feelings. You named off a long list of things that you believed to be "false teachings". Yet I used the word to prove to you that they were true, or atleast a reason to think that way, might be true, even if your not totally convienced.

1. She said angels talk to her. Did angels talk in the bible?  Did Billy Graham write a book about Angels?

2. She talked about many different things that demons do, like the demon that destroys, and how demons keep people in the state of unbelief. Did Jesus cast out demons, and tell us to do the same? Did God talk about the rebuking the destroyer in the book Malichi? Also what did Jesus mean when He talked about cleaning a house of demons and then the devil comes back bringing seven more unclean spirits, and atlast the state of the man now is worst than the first? Paul had a thorn in the flesh because of demonic forces.

How do devils, demons, and that sort work?

3.So the only thing you have is that wether or not Jesus went to hell?  This is the only thing that you  can find fault on with her?

What did Jesus mean when He said He said. (Not exact) "The Son of Man must do like Jonah and spend 3 days in the belly of the fish"?

What does this doctrine have to do with your life?

If you believed it, or not, would it matter either way?If so how and why.

If you believed this, will you still goto heaven? What about the people that believe and listen to her?

So this is why I said, "WHO CARES". Because if anything it just means that Jesus did that much more for our justification.It doesn't change the way I pray, work, eat, sleep, pick my nose .

Originally posted by lambslove
I don't bother with so-called "Christian TV." It's junk.

If there were ever a network that was really devoted to Christ, then I would watch. Until then, I can find other things to do.

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When I first got saved, I wasn't in church, nor did I goto church for sometime. When I got saved, I didn't really know who God was, ,wether muslim or what. It was the Holy Spirit that I knew, and I didn't even know His name. It wasn't until I was watching pastors on t.v. that I realized who God was. Watching JM and Dollar, and Price, and John Haggi, Charles Stanely. Also Billy Graham is on tv.

I have only heard Benny Hen once, because I wanted to hear what he was preaching. At the time I thought he was weird, and didn't believe in faith healings. As a matter of fact I didn't believe in much except that God was there. So I listened to his sermon which was on salvation.That man was right on the money! It was a great sermon, and he told it like it is, no different than Billy Graham, Joyce Meyers, Charles Stanely, or any of the other many respected pastors. I believe he just gets a bad name because of his healing side of his ministry. But this is strange because if you ask these same people if the believe in faith healings, they say yes.

Originally posted by SUNSTONE

3. Why did Jesus say "If you say to this mountain, be cast into the sea, and do not doubt in your heart, this mountain will be cast into the sea

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I have yet to see any believer move even a small dirt pile in their garden by faith. Let's get serious here my friend.

The people in the word of faith movement always forget the key passage in 1 John 5:14:

"Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us."

If it is God's will for us to have things when we ask for them then He will give them to us. If it is not His will we can pray as much as we want and it isn't going to happen.

You have everything given to you to turn on the light, all you have to do is hit the switch, because you have authority to do it.  But instead of doing it, you call up the power company, and beg them to turn on the light, saying " oh please, turn on the light for me". Guess what? There not going to do it, no matter how much you ask, and beg, because you have everything you need to do it yourself.

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In light of this statement, what would you do with Jesus' parable of the persistant friend in Luke 11:5-8?:

And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs."

Jesus said go and make disciples out of all the nations, cast demons, and heal the sick(I think that last part is there ??). So we have authority by grace through faith to get things done here on earth.

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So do you believe that Mark 16:17-18 is for us today also?:

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Originally posted by Andrew
MODERATORS,

Erwin has clarified with me that WOF is accepted by this forum as part of evangelical Christianity. So I am asking that in all fairness, you stop allowing people like Apologist and Susan to attack and condemn this section of Christianity!!!

Its ok to discuss the teachings. But to call our preachers and teachers "false teachers", "junk", "false doctrine", tearing down ministries and ministers, etc is certainly offensive and not acceptable.

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Andrew,

I chose the name 'Apologist' for a reason. I stand up for the truth and have to answer to God one day for it. If you want me to sit idle and not warn people about false teachers like the ones mentioned you are gravely mistaken my friend. The Apostle Paul would commend those who speak out against these metaphysical teachings that have been repackaged for Christian consumption. I am not attacking the people of the WOF movement, but the teachings.

Let me also add that the title of this thread is, "What's your opinion?"
So I am giving it.

I think it dpends on what your're claiming.Can I claim my health, certainly.Should I? Of course.A bunch of money for myself,NO! Do I need to make offerings above my tithe, yes,and will I get a return on my investment from God? I think so.

I live in a hundred year old house, that needs work, drive 1987 van,and a 75 pickup truck. My computer is out of date,I've played the same guitar for nearly 20 years, I still believe in name it and claim it.

My high blood pressure - under control for 6 years, no meds
swelling feet for no reason- undercontrol 30 days no meds
My oldest son in ICU with a fratured skull,back broken in 3 places,fluid on the brain,and docs said may not make it, but today 5 months later,he is still supposed to be in the hospital mind you,today is driving,back in school,and is 80% back to normal. I know he will make a full recovery, because I know in who I believe.

sorry I didn't mean to get on a preach:o

so I'll keep claiming and naming

Well, Apologist, if that's your stand,

I have my own opinions too about your doctrines and those whom you learn under, like your pastor for instance.

And I seriously think what you teach and what your teachers teach are outdated and not the full gospel. Please come out of the dark ages.

In fact, like Psalm 103 says, you have forgotten all His benefits -- Jesus saves, Jesus heals, Jesus protects, Jesus prospers. Read the first part of that Psalm and you'll see the full unadulterated Gospel there.

In my opinion, name it and claim it is a Biblical doctrine -- "i believe therefore have i spoken" "the Word mixed with faith ie WOF". So, if you are coming against something Biblical, as far as my opinion is concerned, i wld say you are a wolf and sheep's clothing out to twist scripture.

BTW: you call yourself an apologist, but to me it sounds more like you are in the ministry of condemnation -- condemning other Christians like Hagin, Copeland, Hinn etc. Indeed you will have to answer to God abt what you say abt them one day!

well mods, if you refuse to officiate this thread, I will give as good as I get. For every condemnation heaped upon those in my 'denom' like Hagin, Copeland and Hinn (Christians whom I respect and learn from), I will return the insults.

If it is God's will for us to have things when we ask for them then He will give them to us. If it is not His will we can pray as much as we want and it isn't going to happen.

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Oh come on apologist, this is such an outdated argument against WOF. His will is his Word! If you want to know his will, read his Word! Why do you thing its called Word-faith. Becos you must see it in the Word first and mix it with faith!

Name it = find if its his will revealed in his Word
Claim it = believe and receive, and if you believe, you will speak it.

So do you believe that Mark 16:17-18 is for us today also?:

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Dont tell me you are cessationist too!? no wonder you are so against WOF.

Originally posted by Andrew
Well, Apologist, if that's your stand,

I have my own opinions too about your doctrines and those whom you learn under, like your pastor for instance.

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Opinions are just that...opinions.
And what are "my doctrines?"
Why do you bring up my pastor? You don't know him and I have said nothing about him or what he believes.

And I seriously think what you teach and what your teachers teach are outdated and not the full gospel. Please come out of the dark ages.

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Outdated? I didn't know God's word changed.

In my opinion, name it and claim it is a Biblical doctrine -- "i believe therefore have i spoken" "the Word mixed with faith ie WOF". So, if you are coming against something Biblical, as far as my opinion is concerned, i wld say you are a wolf and sheep's clothing out to twist scripture.

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Biblical? The word of faith movement teaches that faith is a force and words are the container of that force and by your words you can create your own reality. If that is biblical to you then you may as well read metaphysics also because there is little difference.

BTW: you call yourself an apologist, but to me it sounds more like you are in the ministry of condemnation -- condemning other Christians like Hagin, Copeland, Hinn etc. Indeed you will have to answer to God abt what you say abt them one day!

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Condemnation? I am showing you the errors they teach, God alone condemns.
Tell me this: Is it wrong to speak out against the teachings of Kenneth Hagin? If he is teaching error we must speak out against it just as we do against the metaphysical cults.
He says that God is 6' tall and weighs about 200 lbs and has a hand span of 9 inches. He says that God eats, lives in a mansion, etc. He is obviously speaking about another god as the scripture is clear that God is Spirit!
Benny Hinn has proven himself to be a false prophet as described in Deuteronomy chapter 13.
Just remember that error begets error, and heresy begets heresy.
People's lives have been ruined because of some of these teachings and if you don't believe that then you should look into it more thoroughly.

I recommend you read Christianity In Crisis and Counterfeit Revival to get an idea of what these men are really teaching.

Originally posted by Andrew


Dont tell me you are cessationist too!? no wonder you are so against WOF.

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If you would read Mark 16:17-18 in context you will find that Jesus was talking to the Apostles, not us.

Tell you what, bring any WOF teacher you want to India and we'll let him pick up a King Cobra and watch and see if he lives.
Maybe we can get some botchulism and see if it doesn't harm him also.

If this supposed "gift" is for us then it should be no problem.