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What's your opinion?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Susan, Apr 27, 2002.

Name It And Claim It?

  1. It's valid and it works

  2. It's false

  3. Some good ideas there but the substance is bad

  4. No opinion

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    Let me add that by the rules they use for this so-called "code" (there are no rules really) you can find hidden codes and prophecies in "Winnie The Pooh" books! ;)
     
  2. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    What a shame people listen to this guy.

    I heard him say in defending his health and wealth garbage, "How can you glorify God in a wheelchair?"

    Obviously this fool has never heard of Joni Eareckson Tada.

    He would be wise to read some of her materials and learn about true worship from one who has been a quadraplegic for over 40 years.
     
  3. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    I am confussed at this post, explain what you mean. If you think that these teachers are heretical, then explain why you think that they are.
     
  4. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    As well as Kenneth Hagin, Joyce Meyers, Stormie Omartian, et al.

    Let's not forget the "Gospel in the stars" theory. :(
     
  5. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Sunstone, the "name it and claim it" people say (among other things) that faith is a force that can be shaped by humans to result in wealth, prosperity, health, simply by making the right prayers (out loud).

    -Chris
     
  6. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    (But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, empty head, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.) Matt 5:22

    So you have read Joni's book? What does it say about healings, and miracles? What does she say about the gifts? What does she say about, when Jesus was amazed at there disbelief?

     
     
  7. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    Well how else do you expect these things to happen? Check my sig out.
     
  8. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    Yeah God has blessed them with T.V. ministrys and world ministrys, but hey what do they know?
     
  9. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    This is someone you do not want to listen to and it amazes me that Christians have become so biblically illiterate as to believe the nonsense people like her teach.

    Here is a little info on her teachings:


    In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, she teaches a hallmark doctrine of Faith theology, namely, that Christ had to suffer in hell to atone for our sins and be born again:

    During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin….He paid the price there.…no plan was too extreme…Jesus paid on the cross and in hell….God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, “Let Him go.” Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus….He was resurrected from the dead--the first born-again man.6

    Her assertions are not unlike those of leading Word of Faith proponent Kenneth Copeland, who also believes Christ’s death on the cross was not sufficient to atone for our sins, and that His work of redemption was completed by suffering in hell and being born again. According to Copeland,

    When Jesus cried, “It is finished!” He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne….Jesus’ death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption.7


    [The] word of the living God went down into the pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil had never seen before. He was literally being reborn before the devil’s very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles….Jesus was born again--the first-born from the dead.8

    According to a recently published interview with free-lance writer Ken Walker, however, Meyer contradictorily denies ever believing or teaching that Christ was born again in hell.9

    Moreover, in her 1991 booklet, Meyer asserts that salvation is impossible without believing Jesus suffered in hell as the believer’s substitute. Meyer writes, “There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.”10

    While historic Christianity has debated the issue of whether or not Jesus actually descended into hell (e.g., to proclaim the gospel, declare victory, etc. [1 Peter 3:18-19), no orthodox believer ever held to the belief that Christ suffered and atoned for our sins in hell, rather than on the cross. Yet, Word of Faith teachers, including Joyce Meyer, teach the necessity of Jesus having to pay for our sins in hell, under the torment of Satan and his angels--a teaching both unsubstantiated by and contrary to Scripture. The entirety of Christ’s atoning work (i.e., His suffering and death in our place) occurred on the cross (e.g., 1 Peter 2:24), ending with His proclamation, “It is finished” (John 19:30). The Christ of Faith theology literally had to become sin, taking on the nature of Satan while in hell, thereby needing to be born again in hell before His resurrection could occur.

    OTHER QUESTIONABLE TEACHINGS
    Meyer also advocates peculiar and unbiblical manifestations at church gatherings, and attributes them to the power of God. She proclaims,

    you gotta come on out in the deep….Oh, I think that word’s anointed right now. Deeeep!!! Mmmmmm! One lady was in a conference recently in St. Louis, and she said “I am telling you, every time you said the word “deep” the fire of God hit me in the pit of my guts.” The lady, she kept falling out of her chair and being on the floor, you know? And she said later, “every time you said ‘deeeeep’ it was like I just couldn’t stay in my chair!”11

    Although there is no biblical precedent, she makes the assertion that angels tell her what to preach:

    Now spirits don’t have bodies, so we can’t see them. Okay? There probably is, I believe there is, and I certainly hope there is several angels up here this morning that are preaching with me. I believe that right before I speak some anointed statement to you, that one of them bends over and says in my ear what I’m supposed to say to you.12

    She goes on to promote the superstitious belief that certain kinds of jewelry attract evil spirits:

    There are many different signs and emblems that people wear as jewelry that are straight from the devil, and they absolutely do not know it, and I’m quite sure there are going to be people here today that probably even have some of these things in your possession. You may even be wearing one. And what they do is they draw evil spirits.13

    In lieu of the biblical admonition to test everything by the objective Word of God (1 Thess. 5:21; 2 Tim. 3:16), Meyer further asserts that God would never allow her to fall into error. Turning instead to her subjective feelings she says,

    I am going to tell you something right now. I no more believe that my God is going to let me stand around and believe a lie than I believe that I am going to turn green in the next two minutes. God is my source and He loves me and I am after God with my whole heart. And if I am accidentally, or any other way, getting into error, I am going to have a bell go off on the inside of me that is going to be so loud that not only am I going to hear it, but so is everybody else.14

    Despite what Meyer’s feelings tell her, Scripture says otherwise. The apostle Peter is a constant reminder of our proclivity for committing error, and demonstrated, for example, by Christ’s rebuking of Peter for attempting to deter Him from His mission (Matt. 16:22-23; Mark 8:31-33), and later by being publicly rebuked by the apostle Paul for yielding to the pressure of the Judaizers (Gal. 2:11-21). Were it not possible for Meyer to fall into deception and error, Scripture’s repeated warnings (e.g., Matt. 24:4-5; Acts 20:28-31; Gal. 1:6-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3) would be meaningless.

    Also problematic are some of Meyer’s beliefs regarding spiritual warfare. According to her, for instance, generational spirits supposedly torment families for generations with specific sins, and she even believes that a demon of lust torments her family. On one occasion she says,

    I told you that there was a spirit of incest in my family bloodline….And the thing that I want you to understand today is when there’s a spirit like that in a bloodline, until some person believes on Jesus and takes the blood of Jesus and draws it across that natural bloodline, that devastation goes on for generations and generations….Well see, my father’s grandfather had problems and so his father had problems and so my dad had problems and so I had problems and so if I wouldn’t have stood and believed Jesus, my kids would have had problems and their kids would have had problems and so on and so on.15

    Scripture, however, does not support the existence of a demon or spirit of lust, nor any demon of a particular sin. It is true that certain sins (e.g., alcoholism) are perpetuated and can affect families for generations (see Exod. 20:5; Num. 14:18), but these are the consequences of sin--not generational spirits. James’ epistle is clear that we sin because of our own evil desires (v. 1:14). Demons cannot force us to sin; however, they can influence our behavior through temptation (e.g., Gen. 3:1-6). Nonetheless, we are ultimately held accountable for our actions (e.g., Ezek. 18:4, 20). If this were not so, we would have license to exclaim, “the Devil made me do it!”

    Along similar lines, she believes that there are “mind-binding” spirits who keep multitudes of believers in a perpetual state of unbelief.16 Through deliverance, however, the attacks of mind-binding spirits will disappear. In her case, “when the spirits left, the ability to believe came rushing back.”17

    Meyer overemphasizes and distorts the parameters in which God permits Satan and his angels to work, by attributing practically every negative experience to demonic activity. There is even a demon of accidents. For example, she recounts experiencing a close call while pulling into and out of a fast food restaurant parking lot. She shouts, “‘I rebuke the spirit of accidents, in the name of Jesus!’”18

    Her false view of demonic activity propagates a paranoid and superstitious mindset, while obscuring the work of Christ, human accountability, and biblical views of spiritual warfare.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    6 Meyer, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make: A Complete And Thorough Understanding Of What It Means To Be Born Again (Tulsa: Harrison House, 1991), 35-36 (emphasis in original). The 1996 version of this booklet contains slightly different wording, but essentially the same message:

    “Jesus paid on the cross and went to hell in my place….God rose up from His throne and said to the demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus….His spirit went to hell because that is where we deserved to go.” See Meyer, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make: A Complete and Thorough Understanding of What it Means to be Born Again (Tulsa: Harrison House, 1996, 5th printing), 41-43.

    7 Kenneth Copeland, “Jesus--Our Lord of Glory,” Believer’s Voice of Victory (Volume 10, Number 4, April 1982), 3.

    8 Copeland, “The Price of it all,” Believer’s Voice of Victory (Volume 19, Number 9, September 1991), 4-6.

    9 Ken Walker, Charisma (November 1998). Walker interviewed Joyce and Dave Meyer in Columbus, Ohio, where Joyce spoke at World Harvest Church.

    10 Meyer, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make (1991), 37 (emphasis added). The words “in hell” are deleted from this sentence in the 1996 version of The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make. However, substantial references to the general idea remain in this later version (see the example given in endnote six above).

    11 Meyer, Go To The Upper Room and Wait (Audiotape 6).

    12 Meyer, Witchcraft & Related Spirits (Audiotape, Part 1).

    13 Ibid.

    14 Ibid.

    15 Meyer, Trophies of God’s Grace (Audiotape, Part 1).

    16 Meyer, Battlefield of the Mind (Tulsa: Harrison House, 1995) 53.

    17 Ibid., 53-55.

    18 Meyer, The Root of Rejection, 86.
     
  10. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    Read my post #29 about Joyce Meyers. It applies to many of the people listed.
     
  11. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    That's a bad argument my friend.
    The Mormons have a bigger ministry than they do, does that mean God has blessed them too?

    I am not judging these people personally. I am judging their teachings, and if you would do a little research into what they teach, and use the mind that God has given you to discern truth from error, you would see that they are teaching heresy.
     
  12. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    That's a nice example of taking a verse out of context.

    A 'fool' is a person lacking in judgment or prudence.

    Joni has the proper perspective in that she realizes that God let her be bound to that wheelchair all of these years so that she would be dependant upon God alone. She is, in my opinion, the greatest example of a true believer I have seen. She has been a blessing to countless people who have problems that are not near as bad as her's are and yet she praises God for her wheelchair and calls it her "crown."
     
  13. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    I will say that I understand the need to investigate things like this.

    One troubling thing about the salvation plan is that it's often said that Jesus "paid the penalty for our sins" with his crucifixion. Except that our penalty is supposedly eternity in hell. Jesus is not in hell right now, so that at least raises some question as to how we should interpret the idea that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins.

    -Chris
     
  14. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Such accusations are not tolerated in this forum when it comes to the Catholics, the thread gets removed, locked etc, so why is it okay to attack WOF Christians and their doctrines?

    If you can call WOF teachings heresy here and get away with it, then I shld be able to call Catholic doctrines heresy too and get away with it. But I wont descend to that level :)
     
  15. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    1.Jesus goes to hell for three days? WHO CARES He went somewhere for three days, and it wasn't to heaven was it?

    2. Demons of specific problems. Did you know that God said in His word that if we tithe, He will rebuke the destroyer? Go look it up it is in Malichi.

    3. Does the bible say "rebuke the devil and he shall flee"? NO IT DOES NOT. You have read that, but you have read it without the most important part of the verse, the beginning of it. "Submitt yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee form you."
    If you think that you can defeat the devil by yourself, you are decieved. What does the scripture say? "I can do all things THROUGH Christ who strengthens me." "In all your ways, acknowlegde me and I will make your paths straight" Proverbs.


    4. Angels.
    She says that angels give tell her things? What about the 200 angel listings in the bible, most of them are in the NT? What do they do? I wonder if they have ever told anyone anything? :D
    I talk to God, and so does Joyce Meyers. But angels do play a part at times. I haven't heard or seen one yet.

    5. "Annointed Words"
    This is no surprise, if God has ever talked to you, you would know that sometimes He will use his spirit to let you know something. Like for instance I went on a date with a nonbeliever to see Lord of the rings. God used one of the main caractors split choice in romances to talk to me. The main caractor was confussed, he didn't know who to pick. Just like I was about wether to pick this unsaved girl or not to be my wife. Well it ended up that the caractor didn't choose the one that was different from his race, even thou she was the prettiest.Like the girl I was with, she was very pretty. And with that, God told me "why be unequally yoked with non believers?". God told me there would be alot of problems, the next day the girl lied right to my face.

    And falling down, the first time I got a revealation from God I fell down, literally.

    6. Demons that keep believers in unbelief.
    Did Jesus tell the disciples to cast out demons? What is it that you think demons do? Where is the battle located?
    Since the beginning the devil has tried to keep man in a state of unbelief, and I already told you that if you try to fight him by yourself, you will lose. You have the power to do it, but its through praying to God.


    JM is a full of the Holy Ghost annointed women of God.

    Something tells me that you were inspired to think all of these things about all of these pastors, from one man.

    Paul rebuked Peter for teaching them that they had to live the law, making that teaching unbiblical, and look what he did through Christ. People mess up at times, make mistakes, it doesn't mean they are totally false teachers. It just means they messed up. You are supposed to put our faith in God, first and for most. We need people but they fall short at times.
    I don't believe everything my pastor says but he is still annointed.
     
  16. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    I am not taking nothing out of context, just because proverbs gives a definition of a fool, Jesus said don't call anyone that.

    So if its out of context, what does that part of the verse mean?

    Joni doesn't have the proper perspective on the bible. How many crippled people were healed in the bible?

    If she really wanted to bless people she would pray and fight, and pray and fast and fight, until she got out of that chair. Mr. Reeves(superman) has the proper perspective, of never giving up, and I don't know if hes Christian. But she is and she ignores the gifts of miracles, the gifts of healings.
     
  17. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    Well, you are wrong. I gave you the words from the horses mouth but you obviously don't care what aothers teach.

    Galatians 1:6-9 says:

    I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    Also 1 Corinthians 11:3-4:

    But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

    From her own mouth, as I quoted, Joyce Meyers is preaching a different gospel than the one that Paul preached. If you want to listen to someone like that then that is your prerogative. I for one listen only to teachers who are edifying and teach the truth in fear of the One who will impart a stricter judgement on them.

    James 3:1:

    My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

    God Bless
     
  18. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    The Pharisees taught that murder consists of taking someone’s life. But the Lord said the commandment extended not only to the act itself but also to the internal attitude behind the act. Of course, murder is wrong, but the anger prompting the act is also as wrong as plunging in a knife. Furthermore, becoming angry and assuming a position of superiority over another by calling him a derogatory name (such as the Aram. Raca or You fool!) demonstrates sinfulness of the heart.

    Jesus was talking to the sinful Pharisees, not to a believer considering another person a fool for what they teach.
     
  19. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    That is because this is a 'Protestant' forum.

    So speaking out against false teachings is "descending to a lower level?"

    The Apostle Paul would rebuke us sharply for compromising.
     
  20. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    Did you even read what I quoted?

    Joyce Meyers said: "God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, “Let Him go.” Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus….He was resurrected from the dead--the first born-again man."

    Do you actually believe that demons were tormenting Jesus Christ and that He became "the first born-again man"?

    My goodness that is total blasphemy!

    Jesus did not go to hell when he died.
    He told the thief on the cross:

    “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
     
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