What's Wrong With Reformed Theology/Soteriology?

[Charlie24]

...the absence of any response to what I laid out for you other than to tell me you didn't like it.

You have laid out nothing but theories, Albion.

Where are your points from scripture as I have laid out?

 

[Albion]

just google "predestination." There are plenty.

It should be recognized that this began not with you posting scripture and saying that your selections settle the matter. Rather, it was you posting a story about how people respond to altar calls. That certainly was not taken from the Bible.

I responded by putting a revised version of your own story to you for your consideration, which seems a normal thing to do.

 

[Charlie24]

just google "predestination." There are plenty.

It should be recognized that this began not with you posting scripture and saying that your selections settle the matter. Rather, it was you posting a story about how people respond to altar calls. That certainly was not taken from the Bible.

I responded by putting a revised version of your own story to you for your consideration, which seems a normal thing to do.

What I would like is for you to use scripture to prove me wrong. Isn't that what we do here or is theory the ruling factor now.

 

[renniks]

Of course, God is just, and justly punishes those who resist Him. You seem to have a disconnect about God being just AND the justifier of the one who believes. But your disconnect is that you don't see faith as the gift of God. You see it as something that an individual digs out of his own dirty heart. Am I correct?
TD

No, you are not correct and you totally missed my point.
Again:
"You and Dave keep saying this as if it means something. It's just your theologies human reason and is opposed by literally hundreds of verses that claim God is just in punishing people because they resist him.
Acts 7:51You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did."

There is no resisting the Spirit in Calvinists theology. In Calvinist theology, God's will is ALWAYS done. Scripture says otherwise. I have said again and again on these threads that we have to be enlightened by God before we can accept salvation. so why would you say,: "You see it as something that an individual digs out of his own dirty heart."?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You have laid out nothing but theories, Albion.

Where are your points from scripture as I have laid out?

Yeah I’ve noticed that to in many other threads we’ve debated in and said the same thing.

 

[renniks]

But that idea is humanistic by nature, and denies that the sinful nature keeps a person imprisoned in the lie of the serpent about man's autonomy, which is the essence of sin. It denies that saving a person takes an act of God, that the very decision to believe is an act of God. John 3:19: "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." A person who comes into the light of the gospel is proving that God is working through him.

Nothing in that verse contradicts Arminian theology. We don't deny that a person has to have a freed will, by God's power, we only deny that grace is irresistible. In fact, that verse contradicts Calvinism. A person has to practice truth before coming to the light. That implies that he has a real choice, to follow the truth or not.

 

[renniks]

Notice it says "men from every tribe..." and does not say "all people everywhere for all time". It means Christ's blood effectively redeems some people, not all.

Yes, he effectively redeems those who choose to believe. I can quote you multiple verses confirming that, if you like.

 

[tdidymas]

An unbeliever is invited to church, hears the gospel how Jesus died for their sins. He hears that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son to die on that cross that we may be saved from an eternal hell. He realizes by conviction of the Holy Spirit that he is a sinner and needs a Saviour. He says in his heart I'm going forward to be saved, and accepts Christ as His Saviour.

How is this not free will and how is this decision, as you have said above, not involve an active participation of God?

This has to do with cause and effect, and how much spiritual force (and what kind of force or energy) that God uses to get someone to surrender to gospel truth. Prior to God acting supernaturally on this man's soul to get him humbled and surrendered and believing, this man is no different than any other unbeliever. He hears the words, but it goes in one ear and out the other, because he is still blinded by the devil and in bondage to the devil's will, that is, to reject truth, reject the gospel, and reject Christ, because he still loves his sin more than God.

But then something happens in the man's spirit. God moves in him, causes him to be born in the spirit. Eph. 2:5 "while we were still dead in transgressions, God made us alive..." He then (suddenly or gradually) understands the gospel and how important it is to embrace it. He now has been granted spiritual knowledge and wisdom by God, and the result is that he believes. It's a condition of heart, not a decision. The decision comes afterward - that he commits to following Christ. The cause is the supernatural act of God, and the effect is the man making a decision to obey the gospel.

Another person sits in the church and hears the same message and feels the same convicting Holy Spirit and says in his heart, what will people think if I go forward to receive Christ. I will have to give up Sat. night at the bar with my friends, I'll have to give up everything I love if I make a decision to accept Christ, and he doesn't.

How is this not free will and how is this decision any different from the other mans decision other than one chose to accept Christ and the other refused?

Since "the whole world is under the control of the evil one," every person who is not born of the spirit is "held captive to do the devil's will" - that is, love the pleasures of sin more than God. They are "blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

Therefore, this man in whom the Spirit has not moved to make him spiritually minded (ref. 1 Cor. 2:14) makes his choice according to the bondage of the sinful nature. He loves his sin more than God, and decides to embrace the pleasures thereof, thus rejecting Christ and His way of life.

So then, it depends on what you mean by "free will." This whole conversation defines the term as meaning that man's will is free of God's acting upon it, and is completely neutral to good and evil, and neutral to righteousness and unrighteousness, and it is the individual's will alone that has the final decision whether they become a Christian or not. This is the very nature of this conversation, since the term is profusely used by people who strongly oppose the idea of predestination.

The difference in the two men above is that one has been made spiritually minded by God, and the other has not been. The difference is a supernatural act of God, since the human will is subject to its strongest influence and strongest desires. The human will is fleshly by nature and is not able to leap into the spiritual realm to free itself from the prison of the serpent's control that has it bound or to bring light to its own eyes, when it loves darkness instead. It takes an act of God to free it from that bondage.

Rom. 6:17-18 says "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." This simply means:
* Prior to spiritual birth = slave of sin
* After spiritual birth = slave of righteousness

So then, when a person is "free" from God, he is autonomous in regard to God and "free" from God's influence that may cause him to obey God - "without God in the world." This is what I take "free will" to mean, and the reason why I say it is the essence of the sinful nature.

But when God acts on a person for salvation (Eph. 2:5), that person becomes "free" from being the devil's slave (that is, from slavery to sinful pleasures), and becomes in bondage to God's will. IOW, to fear God and respect him, and to serve Christ. This person's love for God then exceeds his love for sinful pleasures, and he obeys the gospel. It's still an act of God, since the person's human will follows what that person believes to be its greatest advantage. If God isn't gifting a person by supernatural gifting of spiritual sight and wisdom, that person will always choose sinful pleasures as their greatest advantage. Without spiritual wisdom, all a person has is fleshly feelings and experiences to go on.

This is why I say that if a person believes in the idea that his own "free will" makes him a Christian, then that person is deluded, and doesn't understand the meaning of what Paul taught. This is why I say that individuals must be predestined to salvation, otherwise they would not be saved.
TD

 

[BNR32FAN]

Notice it says "nor the desire or will of man" - but you can't see this, can you?


Jesus said to His disciples "you did not choose Me, but I chose you..." but you can't see this, can you?



The context shows that the "all" that Peter is talking about is all that are in the churches he is writing to. Note it says "patient toward you..."
So he is exhorting those in the churches to repent.


I disagree with you on this matter, since the Bible I read says we are predestined. God's elect angels are elect because God's power kept them from falling into disrepute with the devil. As much as you want the Bible to say we are not predestined by God, it says we are. Just accept it.
TD

Yes God desires all men to be saved. Your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 is incorrect because Paul said in Romans 2 and Romans 9 that God is being kind & patient towards those who are stubborn and the vessels of wrath also. God is being patient will everyone.

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:3-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:22-24‬ ‭NASB‬‬

1 Timothy 2:3-4 says the same thing.

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Yes Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you. In what context did He say that? He said this in John 15 when He was telling His 11 faithful apostles to abide (remain, stay, continue) in Him and to bear fruit. He said

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Here Jesus is basically telling them I chose you to do a job so do it. Notice that even tho He chose them He still feels it’s is necessary to tell them to abide/remain in Him. Why would He tell them this if they were incapable of failing to abide in Him?

 

[BNR32FAN]

This has to do with cause and effect, and how much spiritual force (and what kind of force or energy) that God uses to get someone to surrender to gospel truth. Prior to God acting supernaturally on this man's soul to get him humbled and surrendered and believing, this man is no different than any other unbeliever. He hears the words, but it goes in one ear and out the other, because he is still blinded by the devil and in bondage to the devil's will, that is, to reject truth, reject the gospel, and reject Christ, because he still loves his sin more than God.

But then something happens in the man's spirit. God moves in him, causes him to be born in the spirit. Eph. 2:5 "while we were still dead in transgressions, God made us alive..." He then (suddenly or gradually) understands the gospel and how important it is to embrace it. He now has been granted spiritual knowledge and wisdom by God, and the result is that he believes. It's a condition of heart, not a decision. The decision comes afterward - that he commits to following Christ. The cause is the supernatural act of God, and the effect is the man making a decision to obey the gospel.



Since "the whole world is under the control of the evil one," every person who is not born of the spirit is "held captive to do the devil's will" - that is, love the pleasures of sin more than God. They are "blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

Therefore, this man in whom the Spirit has not moved to make him spiritually minded (ref. 1 Cor. 2:14) makes his choice according to the bondage of the sinful nature. He loves his sin more than God, and decides to embrace the pleasures thereof, thus rejecting Christ and His way of life.

So then, it depends on what you mean by "free will." This whole conversation defines the term as meaning that man's will is free of God's acting upon it, and is completely neutral to good and evil, and neutral to righteousness and unrighteousness, and it is the individual's will alone that has the final decision whether they become a Christian or not. This is the very nature of this conversation, since the term is profusely used by people who strongly oppose the idea of predestination.

The difference in the two men above is that one has been made spiritually minded by God, and the other has not been. The difference is a supernatural act of God, since the human will is subject to its strongest influence and strongest desires. The human will is fleshly by nature and is not able to leap into the spiritual realm to free itself from the prison of the serpent's control that has it bound or to bring light to its own eyes, when it loves darkness instead. It takes an act of God to free it from that bondage.

Rom. 6:17-18 says "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." This simply means:
* Prior to spiritual birth = slave of sin
* After spiritual birth = slave of righteousness

So then, when a person is "free" from God, he is autonomous in regard to God and "free" from God's influence that may cause him to obey God - "without God in the world." This is what I take "free will" to mean, and the reason why I say it is the essence of the sinful nature.

But when God acts on a person for salvation (Eph. 2:5), that person becomes "free" from being the devil's slave (that is, from slavery to sinful pleasures), and becomes in bondage to God's will. IOW, to fear God and respect him, and to serve Christ. This person's love for God then exceeds his love for sinful pleasures, and he obeys the gospel. It's still an act of God, since the person's human will follows what that person believes to be its greatest advantage. If God isn't gifting a person by supernatural gifting of spiritual sight and wisdom, that person will always choose sinful pleasures as their greatest advantage. Without spiritual wisdom, all a person has is fleshly feelings and experiences to go on.

This is why I say that if a person believes in the idea that his own "free will" makes him a Christian, then that person is deluded, and doesn't understand the meaning of what Paul taught. This is why I say that individuals must be predestined to salvation, otherwise they would not be saved.
TD

This theology makes God’s judgement on the “unelected” unjust for condemning them for failing to comply with commandments which are impossible for them to comply with.

Also how do you explain Romans 11:17-23? The branches who were grafted in by God can be cut off Him and grafted back in again if they repent of their unbelief.

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:17-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

How can anyone fail to abide in Christ as stated in John 15:6?

 

[Charlie24]

This has to do with cause and effect, and how much spiritual force (and what kind of force or energy) that God uses to get someone to surrender to gospel truth. Prior to God acting supernaturally on this man's soul to get him humbled and surrendered and believing, this man is no different than any other unbeliever. He hears the words, but it goes in one ear and out the other, because he is still blinded by the devil and in bondage to the devil's will, that is, to reject truth, reject the gospel, and reject Christ, because he still loves his sin more than God.

But then something happens in the man's spirit. God moves in him, causes him to be born in the spirit. Eph. 2:5 "while we were still dead in transgressions, God made us alive..." He then (suddenly or gradually) understands the gospel and how important it is to embrace it. He now has been granted spiritual knowledge and wisdom by God, and the result is that he believes. It's a condition of heart, not a decision. The decision comes afterward - that he commits to following Christ. The cause is the supernatural act of God, and the effect is the man making a decision to obey the gospel.



Since "the whole world is under the control of the evil one," every person who is not born of the spirit is "held captive to do the devil's will" - that is, love the pleasures of sin more than God. They are "blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

Therefore, this man in whom the Spirit has not moved to make him spiritually minded (ref. 1 Cor. 2:14) makes his choice according to the bondage of the sinful nature. He loves his sin more than God, and decides to embrace the pleasures thereof, thus rejecting Christ and His way of life.

So then, it depends on what you mean by "free will." This whole conversation defines the term as meaning that man's will is free of God's acting upon it, and is completely neutral to good and evil, and neutral to righteousness and unrighteousness, and it is the individual's will alone that has the final decision whether they become a Christian or not. This is the very nature of this conversation, since the term is profusely used by people who strongly oppose the idea of predestination.

The difference in the two men above is that one has been made spiritually minded by God, and the other has not been. The difference is a supernatural act of God, since the human will is subject to its strongest influence and strongest desires. The human will is fleshly by nature and is not able to leap into the spiritual realm to free itself from the prison of the serpent's control that has it bound or to bring light to its own eyes, when it loves darkness instead. It takes an act of God to free it from that bondage.

Rom. 6:17-18 says "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." This simply means:
* Prior to spiritual birth = slave of sin
* After spiritual birth = slave of righteousness

So then, when a person is "free" from God, he is autonomous in regard to God and "free" from God's influence that may cause him to obey God - "without God in the world." This is what I take "free will" to mean, and the reason why I say it is the essence of the sinful nature.

But when God acts on a person for salvation (Eph. 2:5), that person becomes "free" from being the devil's slave (that is, from slavery to sinful pleasures), and becomes in bondage to God's will. IOW, to fear God and respect him, and to serve Christ. This person's love for God then exceeds his love for sinful pleasures, and he obeys the gospel. It's still an act of God, since the person's human will follows what that person believes to be its greatest advantage. If God isn't gifting a person by supernatural gifting of spiritual sight and wisdom, that person will always choose sinful pleasures as their greatest advantage. Without spiritual wisdom, all a person has is fleshly feelings and experiences to go on.

This is why I say that if a person believes in the idea that his own "free will" makes him a Christian, then that person is deluded, and doesn't understand the meaning of what Paul taught. This is why I say that individuals must be predestined to salvation, otherwise they would not be saved.
TD

Finally someone is reasonable on the subject. I agree with much of what you say, here's where I disagree.

I believe the supernatural act of God you speak of is being confused with the power of gospel being heard. In other words, when the person hears the gospel the Holy Spirit convicts the heart and there is no additional act of God needed for the person to make the decision.

I remember when I was saved many years ago. I was the person in my opening statement that said yes to Christ. It was mothers day, and my mom asked me to go. How could I say no? It was all planned by God, the time, the message, the invitation and even the guest preacher.

When the Holy Spirit entered my heart sitting there listening, I began to shake uncontrollably. I knew that instant by what the preacher said and the explosion (it seemed) inside my heart I was a lost sinner with no hope at all but by accepting Christ.

That was the call of God to Charlie. I chose to accept. The only supernatural act that took place was the pull of the Holy Spirit that came at a snap of a finger.

I call this a decision for Christ that would have never happened if God hadn't set it up. But it was of my own free will that I accepted. Some here say that because of my free will choice I'm not saved, I have took hold of the law in place of grace. LOL, I know better.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Finally someone is reasonable on the subject. I agree with much of what you say, here's where I disagree.

I believe the supernatural act of God you speak of is being confused with the power of gospel being heard. In other words, when the person hears the gospel the Holy Spirit convicts the heart and there is no additional act of God needed for the person to make the decision.

I remember when I was saved many years ago. I was the person in my opening statement that said yes to Christ. It was mothers day, and my mom asked me to go. How could I say no? It was all planned by God, the time, the message, the invitation and even the guest preacher.

When the Holy Spirit entered my heart sitting there listening, I began to shake uncontrollably. I knew that instant by what the preacher said and the explosion (it seemed) inside my heart I was a lost sinner with no hope at all but by accepting Christ.

That was the call of God to Charlie. I chose to accept. The only supernatural act that took place was the pull of the Holy Spirit that came at a snap of a finger.

I call this a decision for Christ that would have never happened if God hadn't set it up. But it was of my own free will that I accepted. Some here say that because of my free will choice I'm not saved, I have took hold of the law in place of grace. LOL, I know better.

Cart before the horse . God must first open up the mind, heart, soul, spirit of the man ( use whichever one you want) to understand the things of the spirit before he can understand the scriptures which include the gospel message . Otherwise it falls upon deaf ears, blind eyes, hard heart etc .......

hope this helps !!!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Finally someone is reasonable on the subject. I agree with much of what you say, here's where I disagree.

I believe the supernatural act of God you speak of is being confused with the power of gospel being heard. In other words, when the person hears the gospel the Holy Spirit convicts the heart and there is no additional act of God needed for the person to make the decision.

I remember when I was saved many years ago. I was the person in my opening statement that said yes to Christ. It was mothers day, and my mom asked me to go. How could I say no? It was all planned by God, the time, the message, the invitation and even the guest preacher.

When the Holy Spirit entered my heart sitting there listening, I began to shake uncontrollably. I knew that instant by what the preacher said and the explosion (it seemed) inside my heart I was a lost sinner with no hope at all but by accepting Christ.

That was the call of God to Charlie. I chose to accept. The only supernatural act that took place was the pull of the Holy Spirit that came at a snap of a finger.

I call this a decision for Christ that would have never happened if God hadn't set it up. But it was of my own free will that I accepted. Some here say that because of my free will choice I'm not saved, I have took hold of the law in place of grace. LOL, I know better.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Charlie24]

Cart before the horse . God must first open up the mind, heart, soul, spirit of the man ( use whichever one you want) to understand the things of the spirit before he can understand the scriptures which include the gospel message . Otherwise it falls upon deaf ears, blind eyes, hard heart etc .......

hope this helps !!!

You make salvation very difficult!

Did the jailer who Paul baptized that night understand the things of the Spirit or the scriptures? I think not! Are you saying Paul's witness to him fell on deaf ears?

 

[bling]

"Lots of things happened" - I think you better spell it out, since my response is "so what"? Either mankind inherited the sinful nature, or not. This is the point of Original Sin and Total Depravity alike. There may be some minor nuances to each, but the effect is the same. If you have a different def, then you need to spell it out.

Adam and Eve where the first humans to sin, so in that sense it is the original sin. Knowledge of good and evil was passed down to all humans giving a great many other ways to sin, so that seems to be the only change within humans which could be described as a “change in human nature”, but there is nothing suggest anything else changed about human nature.

As far as humans being “conceived” as sinners because of something Adam and Eve did, I do not find that in scripture and would consider that unjust, by the way God presented just and unjust in scripture.

My doctrinal understanding would have babies sinless until they committed sins themselves so they are in a safe condition not needing salvation, but would also not have fulfilled their earthly objective.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Either you believe that mankind inherited a sinful nature like Augustine and the reformers taught; or you don't believe that, like Pelagius and Finney taught.

I do not agree with any of these guys.

You're missing the point. "Knowledge of good and evil" is a euphemism, like dozens of euphemisms in scripture. It means Adam and Eve get to determine what is good and evil for themselves. It's also called autonomy or free will, and it's the essence of the sinful nature, because the idea is that man's will is no longer under God's authority. Original Sin of Adam & Eve's detachment from God's direction has been inherited to all mankind.

Wow, that is not the way I define “knowledge of Good and evil” and do not fine that kind of definition in scripture. Prior to eating Adam and Eve had knowledge of right and wrong with the only wrong thing they might do was to eat from the tree of knowledge. Knowing what is evil does not always keep you from doing evil, but it does not allow you to rewrite what is evil.

Human nature by itself is not sinful, since Jesus had human nature and "knew no sin" (that is, never committed any sin). The fact that man's nature now is detached from God's direction shows that man has a sinful human nature. This is proven by the fact that children at a very young age naturally commit sins like stingyness, greed, stealing, coveting, cruelty, and all sorts of other things. They must be taught to do right. But they do wrong by nature. It is also proven by Paul's argument in Rom. 5:12, saying "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

What our very best all human representatives showed us is “human mature” by itself will sin without Deity’s Love and Power which Christ had.

Paul blames death on all humans sinning, but the fact that we will die would help us in seeking God’s help to overcome the power of sinning and thus go to heaven.

Ok, so Paul wanted to leave, but chose to stay for the benefit of others.

Right, and in life or death you want to help others, but if all their fait is predetermined without them having to make a free will choice why would you want to stay and help and really what can you significantly “do”?

I can't see where you are making any sense here. Grace is unmerited because no person has any ability to produce the required righteousness to be right with God.

Grace is unmerited because God is a gift giver and such a huge gift could never be earned by humans.

But if what you say is true, then why did Jesus die? According to your logic, you might as well be Muslim, since they have no reason for God to be merciful, but just that "He is."

Why Christ became our atonement sacrifice is a huge topic. We could never do anything to deserve, earn, be worthy of grace, so it is unconditional and unmerited.

Hurting people only points to a need for spiritual healing, but is not nearly the same thing. Stay on point, which was that unbelievers don't know their future judgment because they don't believe the scripture. They can only be spiritually healed by an act of God.

If the worldly person is to be condemned for not understanding, then he has to be able to understand and a selfish person can “understand”: being burdened and being unburdened because he has become burdened, from there he just has to accept God’s help to become unburdened.

No, I disagree with you on this. When a person surrenders his will to God, the hope of being loved by God is already in his heart, therefore his hate for God is diminished to the point that he becomes willing to volunteer his surrender. Just because someone still feels some residual sinfulness of loathing God's will on certain points, doesn't mean he's not yet born again. Faith transcends feelings, and true believers trust in Christ's delivering power, regardless of how they feel at any given moment.

I am not suggesting anything as big and bold as “surrendering your will to God”, since soldiers do not do that, when they surrender to their enemy, they just are willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity form those they hate.

You are using the term partiality outside of Biblical context. Every time the scripture says that God is not partial, it is talking about race, nationality, position, wealth, and every other thing that people are usually prejudiced about. When God has His own reasons for electing some to salvation, it has nothing to do with partiality. Therefore, God is not being partial at all when He elects some to salvation and not others, because His election originates within Himself, not with people.
The prodigal son's selfish reasons do not correspond with God's choice to save someone. So he had selfish reasons, so what? He had hope that he would be received in some fashion, so that hope is what drove him home. So if anyone becomes a Christian for selfish reasons, so what? If God is at work in that person's heart, they will have hope of being received in some fashion, whether known or unknown. What Christ does for us is prove by His death and resurrection that God the Father promises to receive all who believe and obey the gospel. And this simply identifies who is received, but God's supernatural working is the cause.
TD

If you are totally impartial is that not the same as being arbitrary or how ae they different?

You say: “The prodigal son's selfish reasons do not correspond with God's choice to save someone.” I am saying you have to humble yourself to the point of just being willing to accept pure charity and that allows God to help you, if you are not just willing to humbly accept charity God will not help you. You seem to be saying: you do not have to be willing and you along with everyone else saved could not on your own accept charity. No one likes to humble themselves to the point of having to humbly accept pure charity and you get out of accept charity, by making it, God’s doing?

You seem to explain away all logical biblical supported explanation with: “He elects some to salvation and not others, because His election originates within Himself, not with people”.

We have the example of the prodigal son, people being invited to the banquet, people being told what they must do and people making choices, yet you say: “these do not apply”, since God decided what they would do ahead of time by giving some a good heart and not giving some that good heart.

All mature adults given the ability to accept or reject God’s charity and thus fulfill an earthly objective explains why we spend time on earth, why people where allowed to sin, why this messed up world, why hell, why death, why satan roams around and why tragedies.

This selection within God Himself, shows no need for humans to go through all this or for this world to be the way it is.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Cart before the horse . God must first open up the mind, heart, soul, spirit of the man ( use whichever one you want) to understand the things of the spirit before he can understand the scriptures which include the gospel message . Otherwise it falls upon deaf ears, blind eyes, hard heart etc .......

hope this helps !!!

“To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.”‬‬

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:14-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The natural man cannot understand all that is spiritual but they can accept the gospel. the Corinthians accepted the gospel and yet they were still carnal minded.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God must first open up the mind, heart, soul, spirit of the man ( use whichever one you want) to understand the things of the spirit before he can understand the scriptures which include the gospel message

What scripture supports this statement?

 

[tdidymas]

Nothing in that verse contradicts Arminian theology. We don't deny that a person has to have a freed will, by God's power, we only deny that grace is irresistible. In fact, that verse contradicts Calvinism. A person has to practice truth before coming to the light. That implies that he has a real choice, to follow the truth or not.

Your bias forces you to think that practicing righteousness is chronologically before coming to the light. The text simply does not say that. Since all men before spiritual rebirth are unrighteous, it is impossible for them to practice righteousness as God defines it. Therefore, the practice of righteousness comes after them coming to the light, since righteousness is a result of being in the light. Therefore your idea contradicts what scripture clearly teaches.
TD

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your bias forces you to think that practicing righteousness is chronologically before coming to the light. The text simply does not say that. Since all men before spiritual rebirth are unrighteous, it is impossible for them to practice righteousness as God defines it. Therefore, the practice of righteousness comes after them coming to the light, since righteousness is a result of being in the light. Therefore your idea contradicts what scripture clearly teaches.
TD

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[tdidymas]

No, you are not correct and you totally missed my point.
Again:
"You and Dave keep saying this as if it means something. It's just your theologies human reason and is opposed by literally hundreds of verses that claim God is just in punishing people because they resist him.
Acts 7:51You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did."

There is no resisting the Spirit in Calvinists theology. In Calvinist theology, God's will is ALWAYS done. Scripture says otherwise. I have said again and again on these threads that we have to be enlightened by God before we can accept salvation. so why would you say,: "You see it as something that an individual digs out of his own dirty heart."?

It means something because we're putting our finger on something that irritates you, namely how your idea contradicts what scripture clearly teaches. Your disconnect has to do with cause and effect. The effect of a person choosing to follow Christ after God raises him to spiritual life is what you are confused about. You are obviously trying to say that a person's choice is the cause and spiritual rebirth is the effect, which is backward. We're just trying to say that the scripture teaches that God is in control of our eternal destiny, not us. That the effect of this doctrine is a greater and clearer trust in God. So of course it means something. You are trying to say that you have control of your eternal destiny, and this idea is self-centered.

You see a verse in scripture that says a person made a choice, and you then assume that such person was not being pulled or pushed by God in a certain direction, but that the person's will was completely neutral to good and evil. This is the whole nature to this conversation and the fact that you strongly oppose the idea of predestination.

But your objection here is not valid, seeing that every choice an unregenerate person makes is based on what that person believes to be his greatest advantage, namely what is based on his feelings, desires, experiences, and human reasoning. Every person's will is swayed by these things. But the apostle Paul clearly teaches that a person must be made spiritual in sight, thought, wisdom, and everything else that is required to make the righteous choice to obey the gospel.

Finally, you are confusing reformed theology with determinism, it's not the same. God's will is NOT always done, seeing that every person who rejects Christ to the end of his life does not have his name in the book of life, and is cast into the lake of fire. Such people are under the control of the evil one, not in God's will. You need to understand the difference between this and God ultimately having control of circumstances because He is wise enough to circumvent the opposing wills of the devil and his messengers.

In fact, I get the idea that you are not even trying to understand what we are saying, but that you have the agenda to oppose the idea of predestination no matter what.
TD