What's Wrong With Reformed Theology/Soteriology?

[tdidymas]

In my humble understanding, soteriology as presented by reforming theologians isn't anything like Paul's soteriology when properly understood.

Well, I simply disagree with you. I just think you don't understand reformed theology. IMO it's the most positive, comforting, and God-glorifying system of understanding the scripture.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Why do you think we can choose after salvation, but have no choices before? We can in fact, choose to cease believing. We can in fact, become apostates.
Matthew 24:10 9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many

Just be sure you're not one of those who fall away.

To be sure, everyone makes a choice. The problem with claiming that anyone can make a righteous choice to believe is that it denies the inability of man by himself to understand the gospel. Paul states that clearly in 1 Cor. 2:14 and other places. Blinded minds in bondage to Satan's control don't have the spiritual wherewithall to make the righteous choice to follow Christ or believe in Him. So their choice is to reject the gospel, and the wrath of God continues to hang over them. The only ones who believe and obey the gospel are the ones God chooses for it, because of His special mercy that only He decides to bestow on some individuals.

It is possible that every church has unbelievers who disguise themselves as believers, since Jesus gave us the parable of the wheat and the tares. We might not know specifically who (unless their bad fruit starts showing). So, Jesus then warns that many will "fall away" - that is, from "the faith" which is the set of doctrines and practices that Jesus and the apostles taught. But such people as who start hating other christians weren't saved to begin with, since John clearly states "he who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him."
TD

 

[tdidymas]

You and Dave keep saying this as if it means something. It's just your theologies human reason and is opposed by literally hundreds of verses that claim God is just in punishing people because they resist him.
Acts 7:51You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did.

Of course, God is just, and justly punishes those who resist Him. You seem to have a disconnect about God being just AND the justifier of the one who believes. But your disconnect is that you don't see faith as the gift of God. You see it as something that an individual digs out of his own dirty heart. Am I correct?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

No one is saying God doesn't do a spiritual work in people before they are saved. We call it conviction or preveniant grace. God can open my heart to pay attention and I am quite capable of closing my heart to his conviction. I regrettably have done it plenty of times before and after salvation. That verse certainly doesn't prove irresistible grace.

I think you misrepresent the term "irresistible." It's not instantaneous most of the time. It might be, but mostly it is gradual. Eventually you did come to faith in Christ (or so I assume), and in that, at least to you grace finally became irresistible. So you resisted before God's timing for you to be saved. That doesn't make special grace ultimately resistible.

I'm not familiar with the term "prevenient," but I get the idea that your system of coming to God is synergistic, much like Roman Catholic doctrine. That God's influence is far too subtle to be called forceful. That God merely makes an offer and then leaves it completely up to you to make the final choice to believe and be saved.

But that idea is humanistic by nature, and denies that the sinful nature keeps a person imprisoned in the lie of the serpent about man's autonomy, which is the essence of sin. It denies that saving a person takes an act of God, that the very decision to believe is an act of God. John 3:19: "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." A person who comes into the light of the gospel is proving that God is working through him.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

If you take off your calvinist glasses for an instant, you will realize how ridiculous that sounds. To say that Christ died for all, but at the same time, that a few are irresistibly chosen for salvation is bizarre and makes the verses that say "all" nonsense. If I tell you I am offering a gift to all the people along the road and yet I walk by 90 percent of them without even acknowledging their need, you certainly would think it was silly of me to say I offered my gift to all.

I think you should take off your "anti-calvinist" glasses. It makes perfect sense:
* Christ's sacrifice is worthy enough to save the whole world many times over
* Christ's sacrifice is not effective for anyone who doesn't believe in it, seeing they are judged

Therefore, Christ's sacrifice is only potential for the whole world, but is effective for all whom God includes in His salvation project. Rev. 5:9 "And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.'"

Notice it says "men from every tribe..." and does not say "all people everywhere for all time". It means Christ's blood effectively redeems some people, not all.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

You misapplied these scriptures in your dialogue with the other poster. John 1:11"He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God."

Notice it says "nor the desire or will of man" - but you can't see this, can you?

The other poster was correct in stating it was the followers of Christ that chose him using their free will, not God's determination. When you quoted vs 13 and claimed that was not true you misapplied the scripture. What was born from God's will and not human will was God's will allowing these who choose Christ to become, "children of God."

Jesus said to His disciples "you did not choose Me, but I chose you..." but you can't see this, can you?

HOW DO WE KNOW FOR SURE? AND WHAT SINGLE SCRIPTURE SHOULD PUT AN END TO THIS DEBATE?

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance."

The context shows that the "all" that Peter is talking about is all that are in the churches he is writing to. Note it says "patient toward you..."
So he is exhorting those in the churches to repent.

God desires all to repent and choose him. That's his will. But he does not do the determination about that choice for them. That God determines how intelligent humans, or angels, will chose regarding his sovereignty actually, as I said in the post above, contradicts scripture, is cruel and unforgiving, and has no logical reason to fit into God's purpose.

I disagree with you on this matter, since the Bible I read says we are predestined. God's elect angels are elect because God's power kept them from falling into disrepute with the devil. As much as you want the Bible to say we are not predestined by God, it says we are. Just accept it.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

"No one needs understanding of theology to be saved. All we need is to know that Jesus died for our sins." (another poster's comment)

The Devil knows Christ died as a result of coming to Earth to save humans. False Christians know that also. See matthew chapter 7. There read just one place among many stating that it is not true that knowledge saves us.

"I'm saved because I know Christ died for my sins " is an apostate teaching. If it was true those scriptures I cited in Matthew chapter 7, Christ's own words, are a lie. So do we believe the false teaching or Christ? Also, all the epistles are a lie, if all we need to know is that Christ died for our sins to be saved.

The idea sounds nice, a tickling of the ears, for those who wish no accountability before God for themselves. But it is a teaching producing death to some ignorant people who believe it.

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance."

You don't seem to understand the distinction between natural knowledge and spiritual knowledge. You should study 1 Cor. 1-2 much more than just a cursory reading. Spiritual knowledge is by personal revelation from God, and is an act of God, yes I say even Divine imposition. God interrupted our lives by changing the disposition of our heart. We did not do this by ourselves. God had to intervene supernaturally.

That verse 2 Pet. 3:9 is written to the churches, not to pagans.
TD

 

[truefiction1]

Well, I simply disagree with you. I just think you don't understand reformed theology. IMO it's the most positive, comforting, and God-glorifying system of understanding the scripture.
TD

If your opinion is correct, then why is it that so many adult converts to the Holy Orthodox Church often remark on the sense of relief—not to say liberation—they felt on becoming acquainted with Orthodoxy’s teaching on salvation? We have heard testimonies to this point on many occasions. These folks, coming mainly from Protestant backgrounds, had previously thought about salvation in chiefly forensic terms. Perhaps these did not really "understand reformed theology" either? We might want to ask: if this is the case, is reformed theology even worth understanding.

 

[renniks]

So, Jesus then warns that many will "fall away" - that is, from "the faith" which is the set of doctrines and practices that Jesus and the apostles taught.

Lol, so now you redefine faith to claim real Christians can't fall away. You are contradicting your own doctrine by saying faith is now only a set of doctrines when before it was God given. You can't fall away from what you never really had. Faith is belief in what we can't see, specifically Christ's death and resurrection. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Charlie24]

So, if you were born again because of some decision you made -- that is, a free-will decision in which God did not actively participate in pushing or pulling you in that direction by virtue of His granting you spiritual wisdom to believe the gospel you heard, but He left you alone to make your own decision -- then you started out better than the guy next to you who made the wrong decision to not believe. You made the right choice, he made the wrong choice - right/wrong. You made the righteous choice to believe, therefore you were more righteous than the other guy, by virtue of your natural ability. If indeed you subscribe to this idea, then it is contrary to Paul's teaching about how we started out just as unrighteous as the other guy, in Rom. 3:10-18, and unable to make a righteous choice (Rom. 8:7).


TD

An unbeliever is invited to church, hears the gospel how Jesus died for their sins. He hears that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son to die on that cross that we may be saved from an eternal hell. He realizes by conviction of the Holy Spirit that he is a sinner and needs a Saviour. He says in his heart I'm going forward to be saved, and accepts Christ as His Saviour.

How is this not free will and how is this decision, as you have said above, not involve an active participation of God?

Another person sits in the church and hears the same message and feels the same convicting Holy Spirit and says in his heart, what will people think if I go forward to receive Christ. I will have to give up Sat. night at the bar with my friends, I'll have to give up everything I love if I make a decision to accept Christ, and he doesn't.

How is this not free will and how is this decision any different from the other mans decision other than one chose to accept Christ and the other refused?

 

[Albion]

If your opinion is correct, then why is it that so many adult converts to the Holy Orthodox Church often remark on the sense of relief—not to say liberation—they felt on becoming acquainted with Orthodoxy’s teaching on salvation?

I can appreciate the feelings of those people. However, it is also true that Reformed Christianity produces in the convert that kind of reaction as well.

For such a person, accepting that God is in charge--as opposed to thinking that each of us must perform in a certain way sufficient to meet his expectations even though we don't know exactly what those expectations are--brings a sense of relief as well as a deeper sense of devotion.

So in different ways, I'd say that the observations about Orthodoxy and also about Reformed Christianity are both correct.

 

[Albion]

How is this not free will and how is this decision any different from the other mans decision other than one chose to accept Christ and the other refused?

Your story assumes free will (with different decisions being made by the two people), but the fact that they did different things as a result of hearing the Gospel doesn't prove that both or either of them could have made the opposite decision.

It is the case that you can argue the Gospel, explain it, and entreat a non-believer until you're blue in the face, and it makes so sense to him. But it clicks with the next person. Why? It would be shortsighted to say, simply, that you were persuasive with one of them but not the other or, if not that, that one was smarter than the other.

 

[Charlie24]

Your story assumes free will (with different decisions being made by the two people), but the fact that they did different things as a result of hearing the Gospel doesn't prove that both or either of them could have made the opposite decision.

It is the case that you can argue the Gospel, explain it, and entreat a non-believer until you're blue in the face, and it makes so sense to him. But it clicks with the next person. Why? It would be shortsighted to say, simply, that you were persuasive with one of them but not the other or, if not that, that one was smarter than the other.

Yes, he was smarter. Did God give him a special gift that the other man didn't have a chance at to make that wise choice to choose Christ? No! He did not!

2 Cor. 4:3-4

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

You see, it's not that God did not choose the man, he was blinded by the god of this world (satan) by his pleasure of sin.

 

[Charlie24]

Satan offers death through sin, God offers life through Jesus Christ our Lord!

The condition? We must make the choice for Christ.

Satan will fight tooth and nail to stop us from making that choice.

He uses the pleasure of sin to blind us from Gods truth.

 

[Albion]

Yes, he was smarter. Did God give him a special gift that the other man didn't have a chance at to make that wise choice to choose Christ? No! He did not!

If that is going to be your shield against the point I put to you for consideration, then we are at an impasse.

However, it is perfectly obvious that some people can have the Bible read to them until the cows come home and Christianity explained over and over again...without it ever persuading them. And it's silly to think that only dumb people are being described here. Many determined and convinced atheists or members of other religions are well-educated and as smart as anyone else.

But on the other hand, and as every evangelist knows, for some people--regardless of education or native intelligence--a light goes off and they "get it!"

Is it too much to contemplate that God made that possible??

 

[Charlie24]

If that is going to be your shield against the point I put to you for consideration, then we are at an impasse.

However, it is perfectly obvious that some people can have the Bible read to them until the cows come home and Christianity explained over and over again...without it ever persuading them. And it's silly to think that only dumb people are being described here. Many determined and convinced atheists or members of other religions are well-educated and as smart as anyone else.

But on the other hand, and as every evangelist knows, for some people--regardless of education or native intelligence--a light goes off and they "get it!"

Is it too much to contemplate that God made that possible??

If that is going to be your shield against the point I put to you for consideration, then we are at an impasse.

However, it is perfectly obvious that some people can have the Bible read to them until the cows come home and Christianity explained over and over again...without it ever persuading them. And it's silly to think that only dumb people are being described here. Many determined and convinced atheists or members of other religions are well-educated and as smart as anyone else.

But on the other hand, and as every evangelist knows, for some people--regardless of education or native intelligence--a light goes off and they "get it!"

Is it too much to contemplate that God made that possible??

The fact remains that it's not a matter of God choosing one or the other, it's a matter of choice on the part of all individuals.

As you have seen, it's Satan that blinds to the gospel, not God.

 

[Charlie24]

Is it too much to contemplate that God made that possible??

That's the problem!

We spend our time contemplating what God will or will not do instead of studying His word to see what He has done.

 

[Albion]

The fact remains that it's not a matter of God choosing one or the other, it's a matter of choice on the part of all individuals.

That is what you want to believe. And I got that point several posts ago.

I wish, however, that you were willing to at least hear the other side of the story, even if you were ultimately to decide against it. On this forum, we call these ideas "controversial" for a reason.

 

[Charlie24]

That is what you want to believe. And I got that point several posts ago.

I wish, however, that you were willing to at least hear the other side of the story, even if you were ultimately to decide against it. On this forum, we call these ideas "controversial" for a reason.

What makes you think I haven't heard the theories (and that's what it is) and the scripture taken completely out of context?

It's not controversial to me, I have been showing you that it's not controversial at all.

 

[Albion]

What makes you think I haven't heard the theories (and that's what it is) and the scripture taken completely out of context?

...the absence of any response to what I laid out for you other than to tell me you didn't like it.