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What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

fatboys

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"Natural means" is the exact quote from the sermon at the heart of the matter.

He was responding to a controversy that was being debated among the membership at the time, and took a few moments from a planned sermon to try and dispel matters.


I asked for an explanation of "natural means"--if that, as you say, does not include sex, than what is natural about a virgin giving birth?? I am asking what Joseph Smith meant by natural means, you say it does not mean sex, that your church does not teach God and Mary had sex, so what does Joseph Smith mean by saying she got pregnant by natural means?[/QUOTE]

We have repeatedly said that we do not know how Jesus was conceived. We do not teach that God the Father had sex with Mary. We never have.. What ever "natural means" is understood to be I am sure what is natural to us could be a different meaning to the Father. Jesus was born as natural as you or I were born.
Even though the speeches and talks recorded in the JofD have much truth in them, they are not binding on us as doctrine. Doctrines we are bound to when we become members of the church are found in the four standard works. Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
 
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fatboys

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'He was responding to a controversy that was being debated among the membership at the time, and took a few moments from a planned sermon to try and dispel matters' (Ironhold #350)
I think Ol' BY started a controversy, rather than dispel anything. I have never heard of anything like this outside of Mormonism:

d tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and overrighteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming “great is the mystery of godliness,” and tell nothing. It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.[quote/]

This was Brigham Young's opinion. He was trying to explain a deeper symbolic understanding of the creation and those who participated in the creation. There are meanings here that most people do not understand because it is the meat and not the milk. And even thought you may have scholars and theologians who have much learning, they also have their own biases and limited mortal understanding of things which are of God. The trouble with mainstream Christianity is that gospel according to them has been corrupted by man and diluted to what it once was. Men who were uninspired combined the Word of God to fit their own agenda, leaving out many truths. I do not say that their beliefs are invalid and not important, but are missing many truths which were lost and now restored.


they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, “it is an immaterial substance!” What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea—“if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.” Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you tonight; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing"
m Young. Journal of Discourses, pg 51)

Besides using the word Elohim as a name for God, and believing Michael the angel is Deity, B.Y. also refers to Adam as the Father, who also beget Jesus. And not the Holy Spirit. That is at 'least' four mistakes in one chapter. All the while proclaiming all other theologians as having told nothing!

This is his opinion. He has the right to have his opinion. The church does not teach this. The problem with many of these speeches is that BY stated that before he would declare any of his speeches doctrines he would have to review them and put his stamp on them. He did not live long enough so we will not know whether or not he agreed to it. There are other speeches he had given which line up with what we teach today about God the Father, Adam and Eve etc.
 
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Ironhold

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'He was responding to a controversy that was being debated among the membership at the time, and took a few moments from a planned sermon to try and dispel matters' (Ironhold #350)
I think Ol' BY started a controversy, rather than dispel anything. I have never heard of anything like this outside of Mormonism:

"I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and overrighteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming “great is the mystery of godliness,” and tell nothing. It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.


Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, “it is an immaterial substance!” What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea—“if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.” Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you tonight; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing"


(Brigham Young. Journal of Discourses, pg 51)

Besides using the word Elohim as a name for God, and believing Michael the angel is Deity, B.Y. also refers to Adam as the Father, who also beget Jesus. And not the Holy Spirit. That is at 'least' four mistakes in one chapter. All the while proclaiming all other theologians as having told nothing!

You might want to read up on the whole "Adam - God" kerfluffle first.
 
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Ironhold

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Mormons, are such discourses considered authoritative in your religion?

The Journal of Discourses was never canonized, so the answer is a firm "no".

For every sermon - or portion of a sermon - that contains sound doctrine, we've got another piece that either represents Young speaking his mind or material that was sidelined because the membership back then couldn't understand what he was getting at.

**

In fact, for future reference -

Anything that has sanction from the church will bear one of two copyrights:

"Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

"Intellectual Reserve"

If you don't see either of those two organizations listed as the copyright holder, then the material is non-canonical.
 
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Ironhold

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"Natural means" is the exact quote from the sermon at the heart of the matter.

He was responding to a controversy that was being debated among the membership at the time, and took a few moments from a planned sermon to try and dispel matters.


I asked for an explanation of "natural means"--if that, as you say, does not include sex, than what is natural about a virgin giving birth?? I am asking what Joseph Smith meant by natural means, you say it does not mean sex, that your church does not teach God and Mary had sex, so what does Joseph Smith mean by saying she got pregnant by natural means?[/QUOTE]

To my knowledge, Young never went further into the matter. Everything I've seen basically indicates that he was dismissive of the whole debate and basically just gave a snap answer in the hope that things would die down.

As it is, anyone familiar with even high school-level biology should have a fair inkling about non-sexual reproduction methods such as parthenogenesis.

Frankly, I'm not worried by the issue, as it essentially represents the critics of the church making a mountain of a mole hill.
 
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zelosravioli

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Again, whatever Brigham Young may have meant when he made some of his puzzling statements is simply not clear to us today. Some of his personal views may have simply be wrong. But the scriptures and official LDS doctrine are clear: the husband of Eve in the Garden of Eden was not God the Father! (LDS FAQ: as you suggested)

Good you admit Brigham taught this. It cannot be denied. Again nothing new to me. At least they agree these sermons of Brigham are puzzling to say 'the least'. Never the less Brigham did say them. I did not say he taught the saints much more about this, I think he finally realized it was sure craziness, and he changed his mind as Joseph also changed his theology. But the point remains that Brigham boasts of his own discernment and wisdom and proclaims to speak with absolute clarity on the subject. All while putting down 'all' other teachers and all of Christiandom that might disagree with him. He nominates himself as revealing mysteries, that all others are wrong, as was his habit, and all this with the intent to introduce new teachings. That he purposefully speaks ill of all previous Christian theologians, strongly suggests a purposeful manipulation of his audience. The point is that BY here teaches various serious errors, these ideas of Adam God, God being a man and having a body, the pre-existence, and a natural means of birth for Jesus come from 'their' prophets, so don't blame non LDS for these ideas. All these LDS ideas work together to say what Brigham taught here. This man should not be trusted with truth, so how could he be such a prophet of God, as to tell us to believe him and not other teachers and teachings?

"My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have..." (JD Vol1. p50)

Note Brigham is not being drawn off a planned sermon, this is an intended teaching of this day. Besides the strange teaching themselves, the LDS church's main theme is that they are restoring the lost truths of Christianity to the world, and they are being restored by their Prophets, namely Joseph, then Brigham. Is this really the person you want restoring biblical truth? Brigham should never be allowed to lead 'any' bible study with this attitude, or ideas, let alone lead the complete restoration of 'supposedly' lost truths:

"The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. (JD Vol1. p50)
(Besides all the references to Christian teachers as infidels , it says here that in order to understand Jesus is not illegitimate (Who said He was? Not Christians!) we need to understand Father God procreated all of us, including Jesus, in heaven prior to Earth. Brigham, confused, but still he is just thinking through Josephs theology, which if correct, could have Adam as the actual God of this world, because if you draw out Josephs theology to its logical conclusion, we can be Gods of our own planets, and on our planet we will have millions of spiritual offspring, albeit we will do all the consumating ourselves with our many wives, then our spiritual offspring have a chance on these earths to become mortal in flesh. So it makes sense that Adam could be our God in LDS theology)

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (JD Vol1. p50)
(Again, try not to be influenced by Brigham's convincing 'Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth' and 'Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later' You may wonder where he gets his theology. It is what you get if you follow Joesph's teaching to a logical conclusion)

'They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so (pg.51) on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and overrighteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. (JD Vol1. p50-51. On self government and mysteries)
(This discourse does not represent the way Jesus was begotten, or any physical relationship with Mary, that would be elsewhere, but what is wrong here, as I noted, is that their teachings are highly unbiblical, and they speak of other gods, many other gods. Therefore they are not restoring truth, they are false prophets, they were seriously intent on changing what the bible teaches, and not seeking truth)

'The eyes of the Gentiles are like the eyes of the fool, wandering to the ends of the earth. They are deceived, blinded, and far from understanding the things of God. All who would understand the things of God must understand them by the Spirit of God... The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers. Do you understand yourselves, brethren and sisters? Only to a small degree; and there are as yet but few who can strictly govern themselves"
(Journal of discourses pg.115)

Take what you want, and there is plenty more exciting things from the wise LDS prophets of the restoration of missing truths...
 
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BigDaddy4

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The Journal of Discourses was never canonized, so the answer is a firm "no".

For every sermon - or portion of a sermon - that contains sound doctrine, we've got another piece that either represents Young speaking his mind or material that was sidelined because the membership back then couldn't understand what he was getting at.

**

In fact, for future reference -

Anything that has sanction from the church will bear one of two copyrights:

"Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

"Intellectual Reserve"

If you don't see either of those two organizations listed as the copyright holder, then the material is non-canonical.
Which would mean there are things beyond the 4 standard works that the lds consider doctrinal, including teachings from said Discourses, not to mention books and talks from supposed "prophets, seers, and revelators" and official church publications like the Ensign and various teaching manuals published and used by the lds church. Talk about deceptive and disingenious.

That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the “Son of the Highest.”

https://www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-7?lang=eng

No parthogenesis mentioned. That's just a typical copout.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Ultimately, the basic definition of a miracle is "anything done by way of a process the witnesses can't understand."

All anyone can do is guess at this point, but it seems that for some reason critics of the church almost uniformly guess "sex".
That's laughable. Your "prophets, seers, and revelators", whom the lds membership is supposed to uphold and sustain as such, have made statements that directly or indirectly say it was literal. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Bruce McConkie, Ezra Taft Benson, Herbert Kimball, Orson Pratt, Joseph Fielding Smith, James Talmage to name a few. It's many of these same sources that are quoted in the lds teaching and home and family manuals, even if they are not present in your "four standard works".

In addition, your very own official lds website has this to say in its Bible Dictionary under "God":

Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical account of God as the literal father of the human family, as a being who is concerned for the welfare of mankind and a Personage who hears and answers prayers.

And you want to pass it off as parthogenesis or as a "guess" its sex? Your leaders certainly did not do either.
 
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fatboys

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Ultimately, the basic definition of a miracle is "anything done by way of a process the witnesses can't understand."

All anyone can do is guess at this point, but it seems that for some reason critics of the church almost uniformly guess "sex".
as we have explained this was his opinion. He is open to speculation just like we all are. There are many teachings that are speculative or right on the money. It doesn't matter because many of these teachings do not affect us because we are not bound by them. Whether it is right or wrong
 
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mmksparbud

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'He was responding to a controversy that was being debated among the membership at the time, and took a few moments from a planned sermon to try and dispel matters' (Ironhold #350)
I think Ol' BY started a controversy, rather than dispel anything. I have never heard of anything like this outside of Mormonism:

"I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and overrighteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming “great is the mystery of godliness,” and tell nothing. It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.


Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, “it is an immaterial substance!” What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea—“if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.” Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you tonight; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing"


(Brigham Young. Journal of Discourses, pg 51)

Besides using the word Elohim as a name for God, and believing Michael the angel is Deity, B.Y. also refers to Adam as the Father, who also beget Jesus. And not the Holy Spirit. That is at 'least' four mistakes in one chapter. All the while proclaiming all other theologians as having told nothing!




the quote "natural means" is not stated here. "..was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven." That says what???. "Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Spirit" Now, to understand all this is supposedly of vital importance as these "doctrines" "will prove their salvation or damnation".--"I could tell you much more about this; but were I you tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be noting to it"---
It has proved o b excruciating to try and get to the truth of all these doctrines for what is denied ends up being what is written. When someone says they believe this or that, someone says--absolutely not. this is made up by anti-Mormons, only to find the quotes stating what they say is false is indeed true.--Then they say they proved the person quoting the truth has been proven to be false!!---I am exasperated! It is either what is believed or it is not. If God was a man before He was God, then that is their believe, why deny it? If they teach the Garden of Eden was in Missouri then stand up and say so--that is what Joseph Smith wrote. Why this constant denial of what is written?? If it is the believe, then own it. I have much more respect for someone who stands by what they believe then in someone who denies it, only to be proven that they do indeed believe it!---or is it that they quite simply don't know their own doctrines???
Joseph Smith claims to know the "whole truth" but refuses to state it for fear of being labeled blasphemist!! Yet he states that knowing this means salvation or damnation! Something that vital and he is afraid to state it!! He supposedly has the truth--he either does or he doesn't--he was either shown all this by his angel or not--so why all the hemming and hawing? God was a man before being God, He was born on another planet by another god, we become gods, we have marriage in heaven, Christ was not a product of the Holy Spirit, but created through some blasphemy which was in the garden of Eden which was in Missouri. OK--All those are in black and white stated and quoted here as written by Joseph Smith---If you deny these, you deny your faith--so what is it to be?? Own it or loose it?? If you own it, then quite denying it and accept it and you can tell the world to take a hike--this is what you believe and you are entitled to it!! Sitting on the fence gives way to hemorrhoids!!
 
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mmksparbud

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Most of the items in question were said by Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith.

Oh---good grief!! OK__some of those are by Smith, some by Young---I loose track---is there a supposed big difference??? Do they not both claim the same angel with the same golden plates and to have this knowledge of spiritual matters given to them by this angel and therefore from God???

Look--I am SDA--that is the equivalent of having a sign on your back reading "PLEASE KICK ME!"--I believe what I believe, If I believe it, whether people think I'm crazy or not, makes no difference to me--it is what it is and everyone can snicker and laugh and shake their head, I'll look you straight in the eye and "Yes!"--I believe in the Sabbath and all the rest--if it is stated correctly, why not?? Whomever said it---these are the believes of your founding fathers, your leaders, the ones that started this whole thing and that everyone followed after and still do.
 
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smaneck

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I thought not. We have a body of literature in my own religion called "pilgrim's notes" which are oral accounts of what one of our Central Figures supposedly said or did. One would get a very weird idea of what the Baha'i Faith is about if someone relied on those sources. One of the big problems with Islam, in my opinion is that they have relied too heavily on such oral sources (ahadith.)
 
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smaneck

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Which would mean there are things beyond the 4 standard works that the lds consider doctrinal, including teachings from said Discourses, not to mention books and talks from supposed "prophets, seers, and revelators" and official church publications like the Ensign and various teaching manuals published and used by the lds church.

If they are not authoritative then they are not 'doctrinal.'
 
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A New Dawn

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I thought not. We have a body of literature in my own religion called "pilgrim's notes" which are oral accounts of what one of our Central Figures supposedly said or did. One would get a very weird idea of what the Baha'i Faith is about if someone relied on those sources. One of the big problems with Islam, in my opinion is that they have relied too heavily on such oral sources (ahadith.)
A few years back, anyone in the LDS church would have said that those writings were authoritative. Millions of LDS were raised on the belief that as man is, God once was, and as God is, man will become. They were also raised on the belief that Adam was God, and that all good LDS who get temple recommends and go to the temple and get married and have their kids sealed to them will inherit a planet of their own and be god of it. These were all authoritative teachings that had their foundation in the writings of the Journal of Discourses. I knew dozens of missionaries and older couples who preached that stuff to me on a daily basis when I worked in an historic village that our churches shared history in.
 
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smaneck

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A few years back, anyone in the LDS church would have said that those writings were authoritative. Millions of LDS were raised on the belief that as man is, God once was, and as God is, man will become. They were also raised on the belief that Adam was God, and that all good LDS who get temple recommends and go to the temple and get married and have their kids sealed to them will inherit a planet of their own and be god of it. These were all authoritative teachings that had their foundation in the writings of the Journal of Discourses. I knew dozens of missionaries and older couples who preached that stuff to me on a daily basis when I worked in an historic village that our churches shared history in.

Well, some of those beliefs are found in authoritative sources, but I think Mormons were always clear about what is considered their canonized scriptures.
 
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A New Dawn

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Well, some of those beliefs are found in authoritative sources, but I think Mormons were always clear about what is considered their canonized scriptures.
That is where you would be wrong. To the LDS I knew 30 years ago, the teachings of Brigham Young as found in the JoD were just as authoritative as the sections found in the D&C. LDS today (especially the ones on this discussion board) differ greatly from LDS of 30 years ago (and maybe even many others of today who grew up with those teachings being taught as authoritative.)
 
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zelosravioli

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Oh---good grief!! OK__some of those are by Smith, some by Young... (Mmksparbud, edited from smaneck sorry, I'm new to your names)
I feel your grief. Many people do turn from Mormonism by showing them this stuff, and others are warned. But when they are deep in it, it is blinding.

Sure that sermon was by Brigham not Joseph, but it makes no real difference. The LDS church is 'built' on the idea that they have 'living' prophets who had to restore the lost truths of the Gospel to the earth, the two Prophets are basically only Brigham and Joseph, no other LDS 'prophets' have really added anything to what these two originals had said. I did point out that Josephs doctrines support all these ideas of Brigham, preexistence, God having a body of flesh like Jesus... Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were... We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal... these things the LDS church has always taught, regardless of the Adam God doctrine. Brigham's blatant arrogance, his demeaning of others intelligence, continual boasting of his own supposed intellect (much like Joseph did), included demeaning the saints themselves, often blaming their inability to believe or understand some of his teachings, on their sinfulness. It was a manipulative way of reducing his listeners confidence in their own or others intellect.

Brother Orson Hyde referred to a few who complained about not getting revelations. I will make a statement here that has been brought against me as a crime, perhaps, or as a fault in my life. Not here, I do not allude to anything of the kind in this place, but in the councils of the nations—that Brigham Young has said “when he sends forth his discourses to the world they may call them Scripture.” I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible, and if you want to read revelation read the sayings of him who knows the mind of God, without any special command to one man to go here, and to another to go yonder, or to do this or that, or to go and settle here or there. In the early days of the Church, if a man was going to sell a farm he must have a revelation—Joseph must receive and give a revelation. Many men would not do one thing until God had given them a revelation through the prophet. It must be: “Thus saith the Lord, sell your farm, devote such a portion of your means to education, or printing, or for distributing knowledge to the world. Devote such a portion of your means to do this, and such a portion to do that... ” I have known a good many men in the early days of the Church who had property, that must have revelation to know what disposition to make of their substance; but who, when they received it, were sure not to strictly obey it. What did revelation do for such persons? Nothing but seal their condemnation. Why do the people want revelations to damn themselves? Give the mind of the Lord to this people here in this Conference, would they observe it? There is a few who would like to; but take some of those who are called Latter-day Saints, would they follow it if it were given them? I know they would not..

It has been said, time and time again, that if the people would live worthy of the great things God has in store for them, they are ready to come forth for their salvation and edification; but until we improve upon little things and hearken to the voice of the Lord in our first duties, He is not going to bestow the great mysteries of the invisible worlds upon us. We know too much already unless we do better. You may think I am complaining; well, I am just a trifle. I see the Latter-day Saints here and there going to destruction,
(Journal of Discourses, B. Young Vol 13 pg 264)

A good deal is said about so much power being given to one man. What does man's power on the earth consist of? Of the influence he possesses. If a man have influence with God he has power with Him. Again, if he has influence with the people he has power with them; that is all the legitimate or righteous power man has. We have influence; God has given it to us, and the Latter-day Saints delight to place that confidence in us that is deserving, and the wicked world cannot help it. It may be a great pity in the estimation of a great many, but still the world cannot help it; and justice, mercy, truth, righteousness, love, and good will command this respect, and the worthy get it. We have heard considerable about “down with the one-man power!” All right, down with it! What is it and how are you going to get it down? When you get down the power of God, that which is called one-man power in the midst of the Latter-day Saints will fall, but not before! It is no more nor less than the concentration of the faith and action of the people. And this brings to my mind the facts that exist with regard to the faith of the Latter-day Saints. (Journal of Discourses, B.Young. Vol 13 pg 265-6)

'Now I am going to tell you some more things, and how long will you remember them? Until you get home? Perhaps there are a few who will remember a few words of counsel that I shall give to you. I am here to give this people, called Latter-day Saints, counsel to direct them in the path of life. I am here to answer; I shall be on hand to answer when I am called upon, for all the counsel and for all the instruction that I have given to this people. If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason. This people, called Latter-day Saints, have been laboring now over forty years. Forty-three years last April,...' (Journal of Discourses, Brigham young, Vol 16 pg 161)
 
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smaneck

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Oh---good grief!! OK__some of those are by Smith, some by Young... (Smaneck)
I feel your grief. Many people do turn from Mormonism by showing them this stuff, and others are warned. But when they are deep in it, it is blinding.

I don't know who wrote that but it wasn't me.
 
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