What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

[TasteForTruth]

I will try to dig up the sources. It has been 10 years since I left the church, and don't own as many resources as I used to.

And where did I laugh at your statement?

Well, technically you didn't. But the "doh" emoticon basically felt like you were laughing.

Either way, thanks for looking up the sources.

 

[A New Dawn]

I respect that you have concluded that some people were duped. I am interested in the sources of these details, and why they have not been included in any history I've read, whether the history was objective or not, favorable or damning (to B.Y.).

Or maybe different events are being conflated here?

Here is one thing I read about that alleged incident. It isn't the "duped" version, but an interesting take on how it came into being.
http://mormonthink.com/glossary/transfiguration.htm

Well, other than dozens of variations of that account, that there was no transfiguration, I couldn't find anything else. So I'll have to give you this one. We were both wrong.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Here is one thing I read about that alleged incident. It isn't the "duped" version, but an interesting take on how it came into being.
http://mormonthink.com/glossary/transfiguration.htm

Well, other than dozens of variations of that account, that there was no transfiguration, I couldn't find anything else. So I'll have to give you this one. We were both wrong.

Wrong about what, specifically?

 

[A New Dawn]

Wrong about what, specifically?

There was no transfiguration. It is an urban legend.

 

[seashale76]

Anyone else read all fifteen pages, because I didn't read all fifteen pages. Were any Mark Twain quotes posted, because this thread needs relevant Mark Twain quotes.

If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle. Keeping awake while he did it, was at any rate. If he, according to traditon, merely translated it from certain ancient and myteriously engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out of the way locality, the work of translating it was equally a miracle for the same reason.

The book seems to be merely a prosey detail of imaginary history with the Old Testament for a model followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint old fashioned sound and structure of our King James translation of the scriptures. The result is a mongrel, half modern glibbness and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained, the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern, which was about every sentence or two, he ladeled in a few such scriptural phrases as, "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc. and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass," was his pet. If he had left that out, his bible would have been only a pamphlet.

http://www.salamandersociety.com/marktwain/

 

[TasteForTruth]

There was no transfiguration. It is an urban legend.

Whether or not there was an actual transfiguration cannot be told by any but those who were there. And there are testimonies written by those who were there who described using language which indicates that, to their eyes and ears, a transfiguration of sorts occurred. On what basis are their testimonies simply dismissible?

 

[TasteForTruth]

Anyone else read all fifteen pages, because I didn't read all fifteen pages. Were any Mark Twain quotes posted, because this thread needs relevant Mark Twain quotes.

No opinion that mocks is worth reading, IMO.

 

[seekingsolace]

I'm just wondering what the conversion rate is like from Mormon to Christianity?

 

[mmksparbud]

Noah's ark was built in the Carolinas? Garden of Eden in Missouri?

Say what???????? Is there a source for this???

 

[Ironhold]

Say what???????? Is there a source for this???

There isn't one.

He's ridiculing us again.

 

[LoAmmi]

There isn't one.

He's ridiculing us again.

To be honest, it doesn't seem like anything worth ridiculing even if you believed it. I've yet to hear of the scientific discovery that explains where the Garden of Eden is in the world and a worldwide flood like the one described would reshape the continents completely so "Carolinas" wouldn't be accurate (even though I don't think either the Garden or the Flood are real events).

 

[drstevej]

Say what???????? Is there a source for this???

"In accord with the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, we teach that the Garden of Eden was on the American continent located where the city of Zion, or the New Jerusalem will be built. When Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden, they eventually dwelt at a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, situated in what is now Daviess County, Missouri" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:74).

 

[A New Dawn]

Whether or not there was an actual transfiguration cannot be told by any but those who were there. And there are testimonies written by those who were there who described using language which indicates that, to their eyes and ears, a transfiguration of sorts occurred. On what basis are their testimonies simply dismissible?

There were testimonies told by those who weren't there, too. That's why. People who weren't even in Nauvoo had that very same memory. It's curious. And what is more curious, nobody seemed to know about it or think it important until about 20 years after it supposedly happened, and none of the accounts matched each other. Kind of like the first vision, with all it's myriad of problems.

 

[TasteForTruth]

There were testimonies told by those who weren't there, too. That's why. People who weren't even in Nauvoo had that very same memory. It's curious. And what is more curious, nobody seemed to know about it or think it important until about 20 years after it supposedly happened, and none of the accounts matched each other. Kind of like the first vision, with all it's myriad of problems.

I'm only interested in the testimonies of those who were there, which testimonies are not trumped by those who weren't.

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm only interested in the testimonies of those who were there, which testimonies are not trumped by those who weren't.

LOL. How can you separate them? None who were there, including the people writing the accounts of the conference, at the time, said anything of that nature took place. And one would think that such an incident that was so spiritual in nature as to transfigure someone to thousands of people, would be something worth recording, similar to how the angels that attended the dedication of the Kirtland Temple were remembered.

 

[smaneck]

I'm just wondering what the conversion rate is like from Mormon to Christianity?

What exactly would you be counting? The number of people who are born LDS but become Christians later on? Or the number who were Christians to begin with, became Mormon, then returned to their own church. It is often the case in high-growth religions that new converts maintain double-identities. The percentage of converts that stick with their new religion is generally about 25%. That would be the percentage that stick with it as a result of a tent-revival type conversion. In the Baha'i Faith the ratio is about 50% but in periods where we too have had high-growth, it has dropped down to 25% as well.

And LDS member wrote an excellent academic article on this a number of years ago and we have found it useful in applying it to the dynamics of our own community.

 

[seekingsolace]

What exactly would you be counting? The number of people who are born LDS but become Christians later on? Or the number who were Christians to begin with, became Mormon, then returned to their own church. It is often the case in high-growth religions that new converts maintain double-identities. The percentage of converts that stick with their new religion is generally about 25%. That would be the percentage that stick with it as a result of a tent-revival type conversion. In the Baha'i Faith the ratio is about 50% but in periods where we too have had high-growth, it has dropped down to 25% as well.

And LDS member wrote an excellent academic article on this a number of years ago and we have found it useful in applying it to the dynamics of our own community.

Sorry I should have elaborated more. The conversion rate of those who were raised as Mormon or joined and left for Christianity or another religion.

 

[TasteForTruth]

LOL. How can you separate them?

If they cannot be separated, then there can be no claim either way. Which is it?

None who were there, including the people writing the accounts of the conference, at the time, said anything of that nature took place. And one would think that such an incident that was so spiritual in nature as to transfigure someone to thousands of people, would be something worth recording, similar to how the angels that attended the dedication of the Kirtland Temple were remembered.

People who were there wrote about it. They described what they experienced. I am dealing with what is written by these people, rather than dismissing what is written because there are things that cannot be explained about it. Speculation isn't history and speculation doesn't change what is written.

 

[A New Dawn]

If they cannot be separated, then there can be no claim either way. Which is it?
People who were there wrote about it. They described what they experienced. I am dealing with what is written by these people, rather than dismissing what is written because there are things that cannot be explained about it. Speculation isn't history and speculation doesn't change what is written.

Nobody that was there wrote anything. That is the point. The earliest "remembrances" were 20 years later, and were all sparked by a comment of one person. And that one person's comments magically sparked remembrances by people who weren't even there. How do you separate the ones who were there from the ones who weren't?

 

[LoAmmi]

So what you're saying is that if something very spiritual in nature happens and that happens with lots witnesses, having only a few writings decades later makes that event suspecious?

Very interesting.