What's on your mind?

[peaceful-forest]

I am sure dreading my chores today.

Life is so boring. What happened?

 

[GodDoesListen55]

I am feeling totally run down, but I just gotta keep on keeping on.

 

[peaceful-forest]

False teaching makes me so angry!

 

[GodAndChocolateVanilla]

By the way, everyone,

Miss @GodDoesListen55 , Sir @RileyG , .Mikha'el, my lady knight comrades @Multifavs and @GodJesusAndChocolate , and others in this good community, if you would please pray for my mother who is going into surgery to have an entire knee replacement that she has been needing for several years now. She has always had an apprehension about these kinds of things, but this surgery in particular seems to scare her, and bad dreams about friends in her past and present life losing her to a bad accident of some sort have been plaguing her lately, maybe precisely because of her fear of something going wrong during the surgery.

Please pray with me that it goes perfectly without a hitch, and that she has no bad dreams tonight, the last time she'll have to rest before the operation.

Praying for your Mother, SK. @SarahsKnight [Hugs]

 

[GodAndChocolateVanilla]

I am hungry. I think I will get some Wonton Soup from the Chinese Takeout Place near my House.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

On book 11 of Left Behind. This is just one of those things where I can't be satisfied in my critique of it for some reason unless I see it through to the end. Thankfully this will be the last one, as in a post here as much as two years ago when I first started looking into the books, I was griping that I had already just read the last third of the book 12 just too see if the reviews I had seen about it were being fair in accusing it of brutality and sadism when Jesus appears in His second (third in the Left Behind doctrine?) coming to messily slaughter His human opponents ... and THEN send them to Hell to endlessly suffer the pain of being messily slaughtered without actually dying (because the Bible totally says that in plain words, of course *note my sarcasm*), before setting up a literal millennial kingdom on Earth for the believers. And unfortunately the critics were not exaggerating on this. I mean, I read it for myself. It is clear from not just book 12 but all of my reading so far that this is just one giant revenge fantasy for premillennial dispensationalists to indulge in, not just against unbelievers but seemingly other Christians who believe in Jesus Christ but simply do not interpret books of prophecy and Revelation the way that writers Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins personally think that they should.

I will be glad to wash my hands at the end of book 11, because it had this little nugget of Christian compassion and mercy expressed towards a character who had already taken "the mark":

He found the woman on her stomach, face buried in her arms. She was
wracked with sobs so deep and mournful he could barely stand to watch.
"I'm back, ma'am," he said quietly. "No food. I'm sorry."
"Oh, God, oh, God and Jesus, help me!"
"Ma'am," he said, reaching for her. She shrieked when he touched her, but
he pulled at the sides of her head until he could see her hollow, unseeing,
terrified eyes.
"I knew before everybody disappeared," she said piti-fully. "And then I
knew for sure. With every plague and judgment, I shook my fist in God's face.
He tried to reach me, but I had my own life. I wasn't going to be subservient to
anybody.
"But I've always been afraid of the dark, and my worst nightmare is
starving. I've changed my mind, want to take it all back...."
"But you can't."
"I can't! I can't! I waited too long!"
Rayford knew the prophecy-that people would reject God enough times
that God would harden their hearts and they wouldn't be able to choose him
even if they wanted to. But knowing it didn't mean Rayford under-stood it. And it certainly didn't mean he had to like it. He couldn't make it compute with the God he knew, the loving and merciful one who seemed to look for ways to welcome everyone into heaven, not keep them out.
Rayford stood and felt the blood rush from his head.


You know, I will at least give credit that, while Rayford - Tim LaHaye's Mary Sue - has been an arrogant jerk who clearly hates pretty young women for their daring to be sexually attractive (Hattie may have had an emotional affair with him when he was already married at the beginning of the series, but it takes two to tango, bro, and besides she acted far kinder and braver than he ever did once she gets converted in the story) for most of the series, but he does show some compassion here in trying to find a woman he thinks is forever doomed as the enemy some food to ease her burden just the slightest bit. It still would have been nice, though, if he'd shown some encouragement and hope for her as well instead of just dismissing it as a lost cause. Even if you honestly believe that Revelation truly teaches of a time when someone can take a physical symbol of antichrist worship and be irrevocably condemned, what is the harm in having hope for them when they are clearly starting to repent? What have they got to lose in doing so, hoping and praying for God's forgiveness? Would the Lord condemn that, trusting in the, you know, hope of the Gospel? Did Jesus Himself not say, "Seek and ye shall find? Knock and the door shall be opened"? I really don't see how the woman in agony from the darkness and starvation was being hard-hearted in the least, as the excerpt above was accusing her of having been.

But yeah, this and so many other bits prevailing throughout the latter eight or nine books of the 12-book Left Behind series indicate to me that yeah, the writers have no intention of espousing hope in the Gospel or Christian love with these books. Instead, it's a fantasy of having the last laugh and being able to say "I told you so!" Otherwise, they would never write a part that occurred at the end of Book 10 just now where a believer character said he actually wanted to laugh - no joke - at the suffering of the unbelievers already marked for doom around him as he made his way around them without notice as they cried in pain and fumbled about in total darkness courtesy of the most recent supposed Bowl Judgment, to tell them that this was all God's doing, at least not without there being a clear rebuke of that character for his terrible attitude.

Brother I don't think relentlessly ridiculing your fellow brothers and sisters who believe differently to you is the correct response. I understand that you may disagree vehemently with their doctrines and their writings, but to rip to shreds their books while simultaneously mocking ECT and Premillenialism goes a bit too far. I have seen elsewhere that you are a Conditionalist Christian and as somebody who used to be one I think the fact that the doctrine of ECT can be historically traced back to 300BC-200BC and also that it has been the overwhelming consensus of the Church throughout Church history (e.g., 1 Clement 11) should give you some measure of pause. Jude directly cites from the book of 1 Enoch (that third century BC source) which conveys the worldview of ECT (1 Enoch 10:12-14,1 Enoch 21:7-10, 1 Enoch 90:23-26 if you're interested) and therefore seeing as Jude is a book that details the fate of the wicked, I think it too should be enough to halt the scoffing. Furthermore, you as somebody who believes in conditional immortality should also be intimately aware of the distinctions between Hades/Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna; which means that the verses in 2 Peter 2:17 and Jude 13, which is the judgement that is reserved for the wicked, should also give you pause as it's the same darkness that exists in where the angels who sinned are kept (Jude 6).

The word used for darkness in 2 Peter 2:4 is the word zophos which refers to the deepest blackest darkness, the gloom of the underworld and/or the darkness of tartarus; and it is used in the same verse in which exists the only occurence of the word Tartarus in the New Testament. This black darknes according to both Peter (2 Peter 2:17) and Jude (Jude 13) is the judgement that will come upon those who are not in Christ. You being aware of the distinction between Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna should know that this place of judgement is a place where conscious beings are kept.

What Gehenna is rests upon the question “what is death to the Apostles?” because Gehenna is the second death (Rev 20:14). Death to the Apostles and all people of that time in this context whom they were preaching to, hence the usage of Hades & Tartarus to describe realities, is separation of body and soul; the soul goes to Hades/Sheol where there is no escape apart from the deliverance of God through Christ. A conscious existence, though it's not defined anywhere in Scripture as "life".

In presenting these facts it's not my hope to convince you, but it is my hope that at the very least it should keep you from arrogantly demeaning and mocking doctrines that the Church has believed in for multiple millennia (ECT & Premilennialism). I myself believe in a post-tribulation rapture as I find it extremely difficult to argue with the chronological terms and timing of the rapture presented in Matthew 24:15-31, however, it is not right to belittle and demean those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. As yes, though it is difficult to establish, a coherent and logical case can still be made for it that is also scripturally sound and does not leave the one who believes in it rendered deserving of mocking or worthy of being belittled.

Lastly, if you're wrong regarding ECT and these doctrines what have you done? You would have mocked God's judgement. This is something that we as Christians should always be aware of. I have seen so many people, and in fact I have been one in the past when I was a Calvinist, mock and treat their fellow brothers and sistsers as stupid for not believing the same thing they did. If these people turned out to be wrong (as I was) then the very things they mocked that were the truth, was in essence mocking what God deems to be.

I wasn't going to respond but it's the second time you've gone out of your way to belittle and demean those who are made in the same image of God as you. Christ died for and loves the people you are mocking in the same way He loves you and died for you. God bless mate .

P.s. I will post the citation of zophos in a following comment and also some study notes I have made for those interested in any of the content presented.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

P.s. I will post the citation of zophos in a following comment and also some study notes I have made for those interested in any of the content presented.

Important words
​

ζόφος (zophos). n. masc. darkness, gloom. This is the deepest, blackest darkness.
This word refers to the gloomy darkness of the Underworld in classical Greek literature. In the NT, it is used for the darkness of Tartarus (2 Pet 2:4) and the gloom awaiting the wicked (2 Pet 2:17). In Jude, the rebellious angels have been held in this gloom awaiting the final judgment (Jude 6). This same gloom is in store for the wicked (Jude 13).

ᾅδης (hadēs). n. masc. Hades, the Underworld. This is the name of the Underworld, the place people go after they die.
Hades is closely associated with death, sometimes personified (e.g., Rev 6:8; 20:14) and sometimes seen as a place (e.g., Rev 1:18; 20:13). It is contrasted with heaven (e.g., Matt 11:23; Luke 10:15) either since it is thought to be underground or because it is associated with evil forces (e.g., Matt 16:18). In one parable it is described as the place where the wicked are tormented after death (Luke 16:23).

ταρταρόω (tartaroō). vb. to hold in Tartarus, to be held in hell. Refers to the act of holding someone captive in Tartarus.
In classical Greek, this verb describes the act of holding a prisoner in Tartarus, the level of Hades where the wicked are punished. This verb only occurs in 2 Pet 2:4, referring to where the fallen angels are sent to be punished (compare Luke 8:31).

ἄβυσσος (abyssos). n. masc. abyss, bottomless pit, the Underworld. Refers to the deep Underworld where even demons dread to go.
The demon fears being cast back to this abyss in Luke 8:31. The destroyer (Apollyon in Rev 9:1–11) and the beast (Rev 11:7–8) come from the abyss, and an angel locks Satan there in Rev 20:1–3. In Rom 10:7 it is suggested rhetorically that Christ descended there when he died.

Austin, Benjamin M. 2014. “Afterlife.” In Lexham Theological Wordbook, edited by Douglas Mangum, Derek R. Brown, Rachel Klippenstein, and Rebekah Hurst. Lexham Bible Reference Series. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Personal Study Notes​

In 2 Peter 2:4 zophos is the word used here to describe the darkness in Tartarus (the word translated as hell in this verse); therefore, its use in Jude is for the same. Because of this it means that the black darkness of Tartarus is reserved (2 Peter 2:17) for those who are thrown into Gehenna, the second death; thereby confirming ECT as this is a place where conscious beings are kept and have been kept. Though it will be the first time man is sent to the place where the Angels who sinned (Gen 6:2) have been placed in bonds (Jude 6, 13; 2 Pet 2:4).

The judgement that will come upon those who are not in Christ is the black darkness of Tartarus according to both Peter (2 Pet 2:17) and Jude (Jd 13).
-
The Abyss (bottomless pit in Rev 20:1, 3) is Tartarus, not the human level of Hades. Because exegetically the angels in Jude 13 and 2 Peter 2:4 are in Tartarus (at least according to Peter) and the demons in Luke 8:31 fear being thrown into it.
-
Abaddon in the OT is referenced in Rev 9:11 which shows it corresponds to Tartarus (2 Pet 2:4) and the place of darkness in Jude 13, because the demons in Luke 8:31 feared to go to the abyss where the angels are kept; the place mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 & 17 and Jude 6 & 13. If the NT interprets the OT definitively (it does) then Sheol and Abaddon (Prov 15:11) are to be seen with the NT lens of Hades and Tartarus.

The context seems to dictate that the understanding was that the place of deep darkness was the place where the Angels who sinned in Genesis 6:1-4 (sons of God are angels; Job 1:6, Psalm 82) ended up: Jude 6 & 13, 2 Peter 2:4. But that it is also the place of judgement where those not in Christ will end up too (2 Peter 2:17, Revelation 20:14)

 

[DragonFox91]

One place I don't see talked about very often is Hades. Reading the Bible, I get the sense (at least the wicked) go there when they die & stay there until the Final Judgement. It's not clear to me if they're dead & unaware they're in Hades or if they have some kind of working conscious

Hades is not the same as hell tho it often seems translated or taught as the same. Tranquil, would it be a good idea to include hell in your list?

 

[DragonFox91]

On Reddit I saw a lady started a thread she was panicking her 15 year old hadn't dated yet.

........___________________________........

(Reddit is so toxic & misguided, but I couldn't help myself)

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

One place I don't see talked about very often is Hades. Reading the Bible, I get the sense (at least the wicked) go there when they die & stay there until the Final Judgement. It's not clear to me if they're dead & unaware they're in Hades or if they have some kind of working conscious

Hades is not the same as hell tho it often seems translated or taught as the same. Tranquil, would it be a good idea to include hell in your list?

Well my friend that depends on what one is Hell. Since coming to believe in ECT I have seen people refer to Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna as Hell. A quick rundown of the distinctions would be:

Sheol/Hades: Where all the dead humans before Christ went to be reserved for judgement. Those who had faith in God like the Remanent of Israel in the OT would go to a better part of Hades which Christ called "Abraham's Bosom" and those who hated God went to a place that inflicted some kind of just torment. These two places were separated by a "great chasm" (Luke 16:26). The chasm is either literal & physical or a metaphor for a genuine reality, but either way it doesn't make any difference; both groups of dead people were reserved for the final judgement and the wicked were not able to go near those who had faith in God.

It's worth mentioning too that the word "Hades" was the name for "the underworld". People often use Hell the same way as they used to use the word "Hades" which can make things a bit confusing when talking about the differences presented in Scripture. Also the dead in Christ no longer go to Hades but instead go to Paradise to be with their God and Saviour Jesus Christ as they, by His immense love & grace, are no longer under judgement and have been given eternal life; thereby being freed from the domain of darkness and death (1 Corinthians 15:55).

Tartarus: Tartarus is a place that's in Hades but is another separation and is deeper and darker than the human level (2 Pet 2:4, 17 & Jude 6, 13). In the Greek literature of antiquity it's the place where the Titans (primordial gods who were the parents of other gods like Zeus) were kept under chains/imprisoned, which is the imagery Peter was drawing on in 2 Peter 2:4 when writing this Epistle to either Hellenised Jews or Greek gentiles. It is also referred to as the abyss (Luke 8:31) or bottomless pit (Rev 20:1, 3). Tartarus is only mentioned once in the NT and it's in 2 Peter 2:4. It's also commonly translated as Hell and it's the place where the Angels who sinned are kept. I believe these are the "sons of God" spoken about in Genesis 6:2 as in Jude 6 it describes the angels who left their domain and in 2 Peter 2:4 it also describes the "angels who sinned". Also in Jude 13 the reference to "wandering stars" is a citation of the book of 1 Enoch which while uninspired and having errors, uses the language of "stars" to refer to angelic/spiritual beings. Furthermore, "sons of God" is a common designation for angelic/spiritual beings; either fallen or not as there's usually no distinction made (Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7, Genesis 6:2 & potentially Psalm 82).

So to put it simply, Tartarus is the deepest, darkest and most frightening place in Hades. The fallen angelic/spiritual beings were terrified to be sent there in Luke 8:31.

Gehenna: I'm still studying this one as it's currently unclear to me whether Gehenna is a place like Tartarus or is the actual Tartarus/Abyss that's referred to in the previous paragraphs. From what we know from the imagery in Revelation of the lake of fire and of the use of Gehenna by our Christ and also from Jude 13 & 2 Peter 2:17, it's a place that has the deep darkness of Tartarus but is also fiery. We know that God is light and given that His presence will no longer be there it makes full sense that it is the blackest darkness and also given that He is the being who by His loving hand reduces our suffering, it also makes full sense that because His presence will no longer be there that it's a place of immense suffering, torment and agony.

Now Gehenna is also translated as Hell which as you're aware can make it confusing because all of these places that actually exist and are distinct from one another in certain ways are often conflated together as the same thing. They will eventually be the same thing as both Hades (which includes Tartarus/The Abyss) and death are both thrown into Gehenna (Revelation 20:14). However at this present moment they are currently all distinct and have differences which can make things confusing. The reason I lean towards Gehenna as being called Hell is because in Matthew 5:22 & Matthew 18:9 it's called "geenna (Gehenna) of fire". The fire that's present in Hades may be metaphorical for the torment or it may be literal fire, but it's not the end times fire of Judgement that people think of when they are thinking about Hell. Gehenna is the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation (which makes it the end times judgement) and Christ in the two aforementioned verses called it the "Gehenna of fire". So it makes sense to me that if anything is going to be referred to as Hell it's the lake of fire; Gehenna. Gehenna is also called "the second death" (Revelation 20:14) and death to the Apostles in this context is a place of conscious existence, as they were operating under the worldview of the dead consciously existing in Hades.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I personally would prefer if our modern translators transliterated the separate words instead of using the word "Hell" as that's what the original readers & listeners of God's Word would have read & heard. However I'm definitely not against using the word Hell and I will likely be using it in the future myself. I hope this has helped in some way and brings glory to our God and Father in Heaven. God bless mate .

 

[RileyG]

On Reddit I saw a lady started a thread she was panicking her 15 year old hadn't dated yet.

........___________________________........

(Reddit is so toxic & misguided, but I couldn't help myself)

I never dated and am 28 I am thankful for that

 

[RileyG]

One place I don't see talked about very often is Hades. Reading the Bible, I get the sense (at least the wicked) go there when they die & stay there until the Final Judgement. It's not clear to me if they're dead & unaware they're in Hades or if they have some kind of working conscious

Hades is not the same as hell tho it often seems translated or taught as the same. Tranquil, would it be a good idea to include hell in your list?

I think Hades/Sheol often get misinterpreted. I do believe all the dead, those in heaven and in hell, are conscious and know where they are. This is too much of a theological discussion though Although, I will admit, I see hell as separation from God, rather than fire and brimstone. God is loving and forgiving, not a monster.

 

[DragonFox91]

I never dated and am 28 I am thankful for that

I never have either
I date to marry tho. I'm not going to date someone just to say I dated someone.

Why are you thankful for that

 

[RileyG]

I never have either
I date to marry tho. I'm not going to date someone just to say I dated someone.

Why are you thankful for that

I have no desire to date.

 

[DragonFox91]

I have no desire to date.

Would you give me some of that?

 

[SarahsKnight]

I have no desire to date.

All in all, despite my idealism when it comes to romantic love, I think I might actually be afraid to date, so I don't even know if I can say with confidence whether or not I hold the desire to. It's a bit perplexing.


What I do know for certain is, regardless of where my heart truly stands on the above issue, my heart has never failed to burn within me and my face feel very flushed for a while in the few times of my life that a lady has spoken of holding some measure of romantic fondness for me. It is rather ... overwhelming.

 

[RileyG]

Would you give me some of that?

Sure! Being single is wonderful

 

[DragonFox91]

"Maybe if they didn't sing a nasty song about the Grinch he'd be nicer"

But what do you know he recognized his ways were misguided anyways. Sometimes you need to hear the truth.

 

[RileyG]

Maybe if they didn't sing a nasty song about the Grinch he'd be nicer

But what do you know he recognized his ways were misguided anyways. Sometimes you need to hear the truth.

exactly!

 

[peaceful-forest]

Sure! Being single is wonderful

You have obviously been blessed since you like it.

Not me. I don't like being single. I need and desire love, bonding, sex, and affection.