What's Love got to do with it? (warning - long post ahead)

[Periann]

A few good ones simply aren’t enough.

I agree and this is one of those-if Im wrong it's a good thing deal.

 

[krisfromcanada]

Great post Highland Watchman. Look forward to reading what's to come...

 

[krisfromcanada]

In regards to submission, I have no problem with your expanded viewpoint.

In regards to the gross generalizations, you've said that I'm right to point it out yet the work stands unaltered. Your words and actions do not line up. I have work related essays that I leave available as public statements of my beliefs. They have been modified dozens of times because when I find error in them I correct them.

Why does it seem that some people seem to believe a post needs to be politically correct? A "generalization" is just that - "in general." I'm pretty sure the original post even had a discalimer.... yup it did, "(which, as a disclaimer, some of this may also apply to the ladies as well, and what I have to say may not have any authority or merit beyond what I am learning... On the other hand, it might be pretty valid stuff...)"

Maybe it's just me, but in my opinion it seems nowadays, anytime a 'controversal' topic is discussed, it is so edited and politically correct, (so that no one could ever be offended), that it never makes a clearcut point. Props to HW for just speaking his mind - it's nice to see someone still has an opinion and is willing to post it, regardless is it may be "offensive."

 

[Tink]

If it’s only a few, what do the rest of the nice Christian ladies do? There won't be enough good Christian guys to go around. Well, unless only a minority of Christian women are similarly good. Then it would balance out. But I'm sure no one wants to go there.

I believe you may be on to something here...

Love.

 

[Highland Watchman]

In regards to submission, I have no problem with your expanded viewpoint.

Okay, good. Then we don't need to expand on that. I think part of it was the disorganization of the original post.

In regards to the gross generalizations, you've said that I'm right to point it out yet the work stands unaltered. Your words and actions do not line up. I have work related essays that I leave available as public statements of my beliefs. They have been modified dozens of times because when I find error in them I correct them.

True, I may need to edit my post. It isn't really a formal essay at this point, and I do appreciate the feedback. It may take me a while to actually sit and edit it through, as I know there are some bugs in it - some of which you have pointed out, and some of which have been pointed out by others on my Xanga version (which, Periann, I wrote it at the same time, and thought that it would also be good to post on the forum as well. It wasn't completely second hand or re-hashed. ) Maybe after this week of work is finished, I will sit and edit it. But by then, it might be buried along with the other unpopular posts, so we may not need to worry about it anyway.

In regards to your pseudo-apology to me, sarcasm doesn't help.
If you are offended because I have unjustly lumped you in with a group that is certainly less holy than you are, then I do apologize.

Less holy? That word does not apply. Nor does saying that I don't look at women as well lubed dolls and that I don't sneak quick peaks down dresses imply a holier-than-thou attitude.

No, actually that is more something to give you full props for. I don't usually do so either. There is the odd occasion when I catch myself doing it, but I am not the type to actually look for the opportunities to do it. Some guys are. which, as you have said, they may very well be in the minority among Christian men. But they do exist.

It was more the tone of your earlier post that I would count as "holier than thou", not you personally, and not your efforts toward holiness. It was an apology, but you did catch the sarcasm, which was also meant to be as a reminder for us to remain humble.

I know many guys who DO think and act this way, and many of them go by the title "Christian". Do not assume... that everyone who calls on the LORD does so from a vantage point of perfection.
You speak of a minority. You write as though they are a majority - that much you have conceded. Then you apologize on behalf of all men. That really galled me. And assuming perfection? Again you ascribe a holier-than-thou attitude to those who disagree with your generalizations.

Even if I did speak of a minority, the truth is that minority does actually exist. And the truth also stands that CERTAIN men (which, we will include both Christian and non-Christian here) have acted in this way and have hurt women enough that this generalization/stereotype seems to be before us. All the more reason for those of us who are NOT like this to make an effort to stay not like this, and if we get the chance to show some special woman that not all of us are like this, then all the better. We should be aiming for perfection and holiness. Yet, once again, I must state the need for humility even in this holiness.

We have already established that I was making generalizations, so I won't go into that line of argument anymore.

I realize that the male-hating tendencies of many of our female contemporaries also needs to change. But as Christian men... shouldn't we give them sufficient reason to change this notion, by proving to them...
No. We should not. That would be like telling women that they should prove to me that they aren't gold diggers. The idea is absurd. We should of course emulate Christ as much as possible. But we do so by the Spirit as part of our walk with Christ, not because we're trying to prove something to jilted women.

I agree. It should not be for the purpose of proving something to jilted women, but rather for the purpose of pursuing Holiness and Righteousness, the path that we have been called to embark upon. And through this, if the women see that there are men of integrity and honour out there, it may very well prove it to them without our intentionally putting the focus of proof on them. Rather, our focus should be on our walk with Christ.

In terms of the culture of the times, female bashing (for lack of a better word) was all the rage. Does the Bible then give us a litany of things wrong with females and tell them to shape up that they might prove themselves to men? Hardly. Yet that proposition, inversed for men, is what HW suggests.

No, that is not what I am suggesting. And I think that the female bashing from the ancient times is just as wrong as the male bashing that goes on right now. You may be right in that maybe there really doesn't need to be a change in the way that men treat women or women treat men. And maybe by being the "nice guy" who hears about all of the jerks has jaded the opinion slightly. But then yet, I do have my own stories of how women have also used and abused me. I am more saying that if there is to be reconcilliation, SOMEONE has to step forward and try to mend the situation, somehow. And part of that mending means taking responsibility for our part of the problem.

Sure, if you only see my apology, it could be seen as one-sided and siding with the male-bashing. Maybe it would also help if one of our female counterparts may do a similar thing, but with the female misunderstandings and abuses toward us guys... but then, how much flack would they get from those who say that there is nothing wrong with the way that things are? I admit - I am an idealist, and I want to see things changed for the better. And part of that means learning and speaking for those who may also be stumbling in the darkness.

Well, yeah. The advice, "Just be yourself" is not bad because you should go out of your way to impress a girl. It is bad because you should not just sit back and do nothing, thinking that will attract them. Finding the right woman is a process, and it takes either luck, skill or education. If you don't have the first two, you've got to work on the third. You'll notice that the advice "Just be yourself", is usually given by a woman to a man whom she would never date.

I notice that some of the women here think you're on the right track. How's it working in real life? Theorizing is fine, I love to do it myself; but the real test is how it works, and the only way to find out is to get out there and test it.

Well, I am still single. And I agree that sitting back and doing nothing will not really accomplish much. I agree also that finding the right woman is a process... and education seems to be the route that I am going, as I have neither skill nor luck with these matters.

I am actually working on testing it out right now. I will let you know if it works out. If not, then I guess it's back to the drawing board. As I said, I am learning, and I am willing and open to what learning I can find.

 

[sherri]

The idea that most single Christian men disrespect women is untenable.

Show me any church where all (or even the vast majority) of guys in it honestly, truly believe that real leadership primarily means service. (Just like it does in any other facet of life.) Who don't dominate women. Who honestly believe that women are their genuine equal. Who don't look at inappropriate content and don't have a wandering eye and I swear that I will personally bake you a chocolate cake. And send it to you.

For real.

Because I've never seen it. A very small minority - yes. But a whole church? No.

Because we're a product of whatever culture we grow up in, being changed into christs image. And normal culture (even our supposedly enlightened western one) still falls short of equality. Lip service, sure. But not in reality. I can only think of probably 5-10 guys who I've ever known in my life who I could definatly say genuinely believe that men and women really were created equal. Almost every christian man will claim it. But I know of very few who actually believe it.

(And no I'm not saying women are perfect either - it takes both men and women to make up a society)

 

[sherri]

NB. And by equal I mean, could stand in heaven and look Jesus squarely in the eye and say "yes, I believe you created women as my equal in life".

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

In response to nobody in particular (not a direct response to the post immediately preceding this one):

With all due respect, I must say that this entire concept of a man showing a woman that not all men are a certain way is warped.

I am not an ambassador for my sex/gender. Never have been. Never will be.

I am my own unique self. I have my own experiences, struggles, aptitudes, strengths, weaknesses, tastes, values, goals, ambitions, etc. that have nothing to do with "men". And that is what I will bring to a relationship.

I do not relate to a woman like she is a part of some entity called "women". Each woman is her own unique self. How a woman compares to other women is irrelevant. And each man should likewise be seen as a unique individual and not a comparison or contrast to some concept of "men".

Yes, I have heard it. Women have compared me favorably to other men. "You are not like most men", they will say. How flattering.

Are Christians really saying that we should view a man in comparison to other members of his sex/gender? Are Christians really saying that a man should view himself in comparison to other members of his sex/gender?

It is sad that a woman would base her view of me on other men. It is sad that anybody is advocating such an approach to relationships.

 

[Irascible]

If what you say is true Sherri, then the situation is truly hopeless for all but a minority. Most are doomed to marriages that are but a pathetic shadow of what they could be.

If what you say is true, then the male bashing is appropriate. It's also useless, but justified.

And knowing that men don't have the corner on sin, if what you say is true then female bashing is justified as well. If we in the church are products of the culture, that culture has corrupted femininity just as perversely as masculinity. The only difference is that male bashing is politically correct. (There's the irony of your statement Kris. Male bashing IS politically correct. You've got it 180 degrees out of whack.)

I think you may have me convinced. I see so much utterly worldly garbage coming from the typing fingers of my Christian sisters that I think there's little hope of finding a truly Godly mate. It's a sad situation to be sure.

 

[Beauty4Ashes]

A good OP but after reading through all the replies in which valid points were made, I feel a bit bogged down. Why do we have to pick everything apart? I think the OP came from HW's heart and from his experience. Surely God still wants to grow him further in his understanding as he does each of us. But lets try a little harder to view eachother as innocent as most people aren't actually out to offend or hurt people. Most peoples intentions are better than that but we often misinturpret and misunderstand eachother because we hear what we want to hear and we are jaded by our own personal life experiences. Likewise, no one is perfect at expressing their intent. I would love to see a bit more grace shown on these forums.

Love ya all.

B4A

 

[sherri]

Well I'm sorry if you interperate my post as male bashing. I wasn't bashing anyone, I'm just pointing out what I see.
I also clearly stated that it takes men and women to make up a society. In otherwords if a culture has warped ideas about equality and gender roles, both are responsible in creating it and both are responsible to fix it.
I like guys. A lot. Don't get me wrong. I don't think they're inheritently evil, stupid, chauvenistic blah, blah, blah or as being '...........' insert sweeping insult here.
However I do believe that if you see a problem, the first way of fixing it is to air it.

Which is what highland watchman was doing, and he did it beautifully.


And as I've stated in other posts. I believe a lot of that (in fact the bottom line) is because of the fall and the curses God put on adam and eve.

He put the curse on eve of 'and your husband will rule (dominate) over you'.

And so it's been ever since. You can't respect someone who you dominate. Nor will you be able to see them as your complete equal.


Hence my point. (- which was directly in response to your point about christian men disrespecting women)

 

[sherri]

oops, we must have been writing at the same time B4A - your post beat me.

 

[Beauty4Ashes]

ooh, do i get a prize

 

[sherri]

he, he - you are a prize (you don't need one )

 

[Highland Watchman]

irony of ironies... I expected this thread to be dead and buried by now, much like many of the other threads that I start. But here it is - still alive and kicking.

But seriously... Yes, we are individuals as LOVEthroughIntellect has stated, and each person is different from another, in certain ways... There are many ways which we are the same as well. And it is good that you are looked at favorably. Good on ya, mate!

I do appreciate the discussion, and I like that there are various views being shown here, and also some edits, which it could probably use if I were to make it into anything more than this post here, which is probably unlikely anyway. But if I do, I will be sure to remember the edits and feedback that I got. (which, I actually prefer the honest responses to my posts to the other reaction, which is to not reply at all)...

 

[OhhJim]

Show me any church where all (or even the vast majority) of guys in it honestly, truly believe that real leadership primarily means service. (Just like it does in any other facet of life.) Who don't dominate women. Who honestly believe that women are their genuine equal. Who don't look at inappropriate content and don't have a wandering eye and I swear that I will personally bake you a chocolate cake. And send it to you.

I will concede your point gladly if you will show me a church where the Christian women prefer the Christian men who are willing to lead and declare women to be their equal. I know, I know, you will counter that Christian men should stand up for the right, no matter if they get the girl or not. And I will say that, if you believe this will happen, then you have no idea how God created us.

Women have a responsibility, too. You can't just blame the men for everything. (Well, actually, having been married, I know that you CAN. But you shouldn't.)

There are strong Christian men-leaders in most churches. Don't blame them because there are other types of men there, also. But are the men-leaders the ones that the women support? Truly support, not just in theory?

 

[Llauralin]

Hmmm... interesting discussion. Along with some flaws, I think the OP had several good points. I'm getting rather worried about the whole "just a warm body to snuggle up to" thing -- are those guys really in the majority?

I rather liked the point about it being ok to wait awhile before going from friendship to a more serious relationship, and tend to agree. 'M not so sure about other girls, but I never really got the whole "friend zone" thing. Sure we may give up eventually, but if I like a guy I'm friends with, chances are I'm spending some time and energy figuring out the age old "how can I tell if he really likes me, or is just being friendly?" thing, and would be thrilled if he suggested something more romantic. True, it would have to be somewhat more overt than if we hadn't been friends for a while (heh... a guy friend just invited me over for a movie at his place, and I have no idea if that meant he likes me, or just the movie... girls can't always read minds either), but that shouldn't be a huge problem. So, yeah, I liked that point. "friend zone" is not an actual place (at least not with me).

 

[Irascible]

Well I'm sorry if you interperate my post as male bashing.

I did not. That I'm aware, I have never seen you engaged in male bashing. It's been rather the opposite. You've been extraordinarily supportive of God's role for man. I was only saying that if the bleak picture you paint about the Christian men you've known is true of most, then Christian males may deserve some bashing.

 

[Irascible]

I would love to see a bit more grace shown on these forums.

Knowing I can expect the truth from you B4A, I'm going to write the natural companion to paragraph one of point three and then ask you about it. I invite the critique of other ladies as well.

Where is it that you women get this hair-brained notion that men are only a strong arm to open jars with and an ATM machine to use for shopping? Let alone this twisted notion of militant feminism that says you don’t need us at all? I’m trying to figure this out. Is it from the messages you get and receive (as auditory creatures) from afternoon talk shows that say men are the source of all evil? Is it from the twisted images of so called smart women like Hillary and Oprah? Yes, women want and should get equality. But must you like cowards attain it by attacking men from afar and bringing society down?

If I address the Christian lovelies on CF this way, will I be shown grace and even applauded? Or will I be ripped apart for being a male chauvinist pig? There are always exceptions, but in terms of general response I think the ladies would read me the riot act and the men would run for the hills. Yet the inverse can be written by a Christian man to Christian men about Christian men and the ladies congratulate him. Wow.

I know of no better way to illustrate my point than by exemplifying the opposite with the mock paragraph above. If you still don’t see it then OK. I surrender. I agree that nothing bad was intended by anyone. I generally like HW's writing. I'm just of the opinion that militant feminism has invaded the church in such insidious ways that we are at times are hardly aware of it.

 

[Athalia]

militant femenism has invaded everywhere.

I enjoyed Highland's post because it is a man holding men accountable, just as it should be women holding women accountable for the failings of man and themselves.... If that makes sense.