What's Love got to do with it? (warning - long post ahead)

[Highland Watchman]

I have been learning a lot lately... about, you guessed it... and I admit that there is a lot that I had thought that was rather wrong-headed, especially in this area. No, this is not going to be a "woe is me, I can't find a date" post. The LORD knows I've posted enough of those, let alone SEEN enough of those, from the "why can't I be like other guys, and not this beast-like loser?" posts to the "I don't understand why I am single..." posts to the "I am insistent that I will never marry..." posts... The list goes on and on.

So, friends, you can relax - this post is not about that. It is related, though, as it is a reflective piece, a lot of it being what I have been learning the past little while and why the way that a lot of us guys are doing it is so wrong-headed. Even some of the "dating advice" that certain guys have given me has been all wrong. So if I may submit for the ladies, on behalf of the guys who are (unintentional) jerks and idiots... even if they may not share my sentiments... we are sorry for our bone-headedness. And for the guys... Dudes, what are we thinking?! (which, as a disclaimer, some of this may also apply to the ladies as well, and what I have to say may not have any authority or merit beyond what I am learning... On the other hand, it might be pretty valid stuff...)

1. To Thine own self be true...

First of all... how often have we heard the advice "don't be you and you will be fine!" Or, at least thought it? For me, it's pretty much whenever I would get out of my shell for a first date or an attempted first impression. It's not necessarily me that is saying it (but a few well-intentioned guy friends who know me to be a bit on the eccentric side), but regardless of where I hear that advice... it still affects how I will act in many ways. And you know? Every time I try to go out of my way to impress a girl, especially a certain one... it backfires, and I look like an even bigger idiot than before. Granted, there is also the tendency that many of us have, whether through pre-conceived ideas about social ettiquette and what-not, we hide who we really are behind this mask of neutrality.

Yet, this is where such advice backfires... First off, who is it that you want the girls to fall for, this fake macho image that we put forward, or the real us who exists behind those walls (and who isn't seen until you've already bagged her, and you can let your defences down)? Chances are, we want to be loved for who we are, and as much as this may hurt to hear (let alone say) if this girl is not into you for who you are, she's not worth your time, drop-dead gorgeous or not. Because once that false self is dropped and she sees the real you, she's outta here, and you've lost your chance... plus any trust that she MIGHT have had towards you.

Second... you may be thinking "yeah, but if I am myself, she's not going to like me..." I don't usually name call, but who or what put such a moronic thought into your head? If you are pursuing a girl in hopes of a relationship that leads into marriage, she is going to be with you for a heck of a lot longer than just a short fling, and many girls can see past a fake front after a while. If she doesn't like you for who you are, why torture yourself (and her) by pursuing a relationship behind a false identity?

Third... how would you feel if someone whom you were dating was going on false pretenses, and was not so much interested in getting to know you, but using you to get their way, and constantly lying to you? This is out and out deception, not love. Love rejoices in the truth, not in falsehood.

2. Time is golden...

Sure, I admit it. Out of curiosity, I have read a bit about sexuality. A lot of my knowledge is based on what I have read... and what I have found, interestingly enough, is that while a guy is ready to "go for it" quickly, women tend to be "slower to warm up"... much like the difference between a microwave and an oven. Of course, this may be generalizing here, but most of the stuff I've read seems to agree on this point.

Relationships is kind of the same way. As a guy, especially with all of the pressure to be the one to initiate things (which is next to impossible sometimes), there is also the looming threat that we could "lose our chance" with the girl we're interested in if we do not act quickly enough. The whole "friend-zone" myth actually revolves around this idea, that a woman has two categories into which she puts men - potentials, and "just friends". So because of this, the guy must dance on this wire of moving in quickly (before she's taken) and yet not engaging her as a friend, as this would slam you into the "friend zone".

As a guy who has been "locked in the friend zone" enough during my days, much of my brooding and questioning times was why I could not be like the other guys, who "seem" more confident and sure, and who could make the girls swoon just by flashing them a smile. So I would chide myself in my habits and ways, which among some of my other friends who had bought into this myth, it kind of made me come across as more of a eunoch than a man. A eunoch can befriend a girl and be safe - he isn't going to try anything. After all, to the girl he is "just a friend", especially when the next Don Juan comes along and flashes a grin at her.

Yet, here is where that myth falls apart. Many women want a guy who can be their best friend (this learned through reading blog posts of single women and through conversations), and the quick movers may be thrilling for a while - until it is discovered that they are really jerks, and then the "just friends" guy gets to hear about it. But ultimately, if a guy can not be friends with a girl, what will be left of the relationship when the sparks fizzle and fade in the natural ebbs of such a relationship?

Lose your chance? While I can see the point to this argument in a way, as a girl will only wait so long, and who knows when another guy will come and sweep her off her feet... and if she doesn't know that you are interested (as she has just as many questions about this as you do)... then yeah, there is a huge possibility that you will lose your chance. But we have our whole lifetimes to figure this stuff out, for one. And for two, what about the examples of the opposite, where after years of being only friends, the guy finally crosses the bridge and offers his hand to the girl? I have seen it happen - sometimes, it takes years. And, if it is truly love, then I think it would last a wee bit longer than the one or two weeks that it takes for you to muster up the courage to say "hi". Love is Patient.

3. "Hey! I'm up here!!"

I can see a few female heads nodding in tune with this statement in my minds eye as I write this. Where is it that we get this hairbrained notion that woman is only a warm body to snuggle up to and an object to use for our pleasure? Let alone the twisted and abused notion of "submission" that has me want to dry heave every time I hear about it (maybe because my mother is a strong woman, and my stance leans a bit more toward egalitatianism, though I see male and female as two complementing halfs of the same whole). I am trying to figure this out. Is it from the messages we get and receive (as visual creatures) that because the woman's body is beautiful and made to complement the male half that we want to possess it as something we own? Is it the twisted image that our media has adopted that sex is a casual encounter, and that we should be entitled to spread our seed with every beautiful woman we see, especially the most beautiful (in the world's eyes)? Or did the media adopt this from something else? Yes, we guys are desperate for love, and we want the physical affection. But must we like cowards always "admire from afar", or sneak quick peaks down a girl's shirt, or under her skirt? (or when she's sitting cross legged and leaning forward and there is a chance you can see her lower back and maybe even her underwear)

Sure, I admit that I have done this occasionally. Sometimes it is unavoidable. And yes, appreciating the beauty of Eve is one thing... but that is not all there is to her, oh Man. She is a companion, a helper, a friend, a complementary partner in life... not a well lubricated blow up doll filled with hot air. She is our equal. Sure, there is the whole submission thing, which I still really don't understand (but I don't think it is my place to understand that side of the equation, as much as it is to learn to LOVE her as Christ loves his people, which includes even dying to what I want in order to give her what is best for her - Love is not self seeking). Ladies, please be patient with us. In many ways, we have to unlearn a lot of what we have learned...

Which, this brings up another issue, which I have seen posted time after time after time, as well as mentioned many a time in the locker room. It's where the objectifying of women turns into a comparison of who falls closer to the idealized form of beauty. Some women turn anorexic because they want to be seen as beautiful - others spend thousands of dollars to be pumped full of plastic and silicone. As I can see from looking at this, they struggle enough with issues of beauty. They don't need us adding male disrespect (and inappropriate contentography addiction because the girls there are both hot and willing) into the picture. Granted, the ladies should be helping to defend us, but we should also be working to defend them. Where are the knights and warriors of the LORD's army? I would hope that they could be found defending their communities, not flirting with a dangerous seductress, whose only aim is to disarm you so you are ineffective in the fight against the Enemy of our Souls.

4. "The One"...

You know, I really don't know where I stand as far as whether there is one that was chosen before the beginning to be made for us, or if we truly do have the choice between every person in the world (and God gives no hoot about it - so long as you are not unequally yoked)... I think my personal stance is somewhere in the middle of these two. The responsibility does lie with us to choose, definitely, and also the responsibility to love the person that God leads into our lives. But I think that God also knows what we need, when we need it, and for what purposes we should go for it.

I am not really one to advocate serial dating. For some people, I guess it works to get out there and socialize, and to find that special someone, and then guess and piece together the type of person whom you should be looking for. But there is too much broken hearts that comes with that for my already weak heart to handle. I don't really think it is meant to be such a guessing game, but everything will fall into place in order to show you (sometimes in flashing lights, for those of us who would not pay attention to any other sign) "go for this person".

Worried that I may not find somebody? Sure, I think about that from time to time. What single person doesn't? But what is more important, a fling and relationship because it is the in thing to do and it makes us feel secure, or waiting until the right time when God shows us (and even has a hand in writing our love story)? Of course, at the same time as this, I am not really an advocate of the "God told me to marry 'x', but I am really interested in 'c'." camp. If God really wanted you to marry someone, the circumstances will be almost undeniable that sometimes, all you can do is fight against them, just to prove to yourself that they are there. And the split heart and doublemindedness is not a sign that you are ready for such a relationship anyway.

That's all I have to say about that for now. More may come later...

 

[sherri]

Thanks highland watchman Thats the most amazing post I've read in here for a long time. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

 

[Highland Watchman]

you're welcome.

 

[Periann]

I agree with Sherri. Awesome post. Ten thumbs way way up.

Trying to collect what thoughts I had while reading your post. First off I accept your apology . Secondly, Ive often wondered why guys try and pretend to be someone different around people that they like. Ive seen many guy and girl friends do that (and might have done it myself) and besides it being amusing it also makes you wonder-what are they thinking? The truth always comes out. And for the rest of your post-God's timing and His ways are a lot higher than I can ever comprehend. The best that I can do is walk in the path of love and know that He will take care of the rest-the who, where, and when.

 

[lunalinda]

I'm jaw-dropped, finding it hard to believe that such deep, thought-provoking stuff was written down by a man! And an awesome job you did. You have a near perfect idea of love. Don't let it go! In fact, spread the word to other males out there who are intent on listening and acting. Well done.

 

[Miles]

I'm jaw-dropped, finding it hard to believe that such deep, thought-provoking stuff was written down by a man!

Does it really surprise you that we're not all troglodytes?

 

[Irascible]

Points one and two are excellent.

Point four meanders a bit and that’s OK.

However, point three is offensive. Who are you to indict the men of CF for your presumably past behavior?

Where is it that we get this hairbrained notion that woman is only a warm body to snuggle up to and an object to use for our pleasure?
Certain individuals may, but we have no such notion.

Let alone the twisted and abused notion of "submission" that has me want to dry heave every time I hear about it.
The notion of submission is twisted by the world. The notion of submission as presented in the Bible is God ordained.

Sure, there is the whole submission thing, which I still really don't understand (but I don't think it is my place to understand…
You profess disdain for the subject yet admit that you have decided not to understand it.

...must we like cowards always "admire from afar", or sneak quick peaks down a girl's shirt, or under her skirt?
The last time I saw such behavior on a regular basis was in high school, which begs the question: Who exactly is it that you associate with? That is rhetorical, of course. I don’t want to know as they are apparently an unsavory bunch. The Christian guys I know display no such behavior. And perhaps there lies my problem with point three. You write as though you’re talking to the local gym. Good writing takes into account the intended audience. In case you’re unaware, this is a Christians only forum. There may be a few among us that act that way, but that is not the case for the overwhelming majority.

Ladies, please be patient with us. In many ways, we have to unlearn a lot of what we have learned.
Yes. Ladies please be patient while HW panders to the militantly feministic notion that men are by default knuckle draggers.

 

[everlast]

Interesting, well seeing that women have replied to this and seem to have liked it, I had to read it through myself to see what the big deal was however in the end I wasnt sure what to think of it, on behalf of the "so called guys" we are not idiots or blind and this post although I know you didnt mean to once again generalizes men into an already standard and always growing negative view, often times the norm, and gives women another false outlook, I understand this is what you have learned and that in no way is suppose to be true, but again its content that you have seen through acouple of mens actions and not all of us as a whole, the hard thing about discussing such a topic is that everyone is different, God has made us different so its very hard to relate to your opinions and ideas. It seems as if people are always looking for answers and some information that you can read and say hey this why they are like this, but the bottom line is that well never know the true nature of human beings, women and men, You musnt look at men as being the main cause of womens trails or women the cause of mens, but rather on a larger scale,society as a whole,greed,the forces of nature, good vs bad, especially in America were so much of our freedoms create so much chaos, and your view on "the one"well I have always felt this is a very narrow and foward statement that people have created, I dont believe that you find your solemate so conveniently in the same area code or state but rather I believe (and this is my opinion)that you make someone your solemate through love, understanding and growth, just to name a few. Some people may meet the "person of there dreams" so they want to "name" this incredible, unbelievable occurrence so they say hey this is "the one"and thus the idea becomes true to them. It just our way of figuring things out so that we dont endlessly think about it, question it or confuse ourselves. Lastly yes some of these things such as friendships, or ways of thinking can be statistically shown to be accurate but speaking from an outside perspective, I often get mad about these discussions such as men vs women, whos smarter men or women, some of us are not the stereotypical fat guy on a couch watching sports all day with the slim beautiful wife, just as I hope women dont want to be portrayed as they are in desperate housewifes which I feel makes women look bad, in the end you may have to just search yourself from within with God by urside to believe what the man your currently with is all about.

 

[lunalinda]

Does it really surprise you that we're not all troglodytes?

Well maybe not as much as I sometimes make it out to be, but yeah, there are still those random times when it is a bit surprising when a man goes against the grain and is everything opposite of what my periodical bitter mind tries to force me to believe about men sometimes.

 

[Irascible]

Does it really surprise you that we're not all troglodytes?

Well maybe not as much as I sometimes make it out to be, but yeah, there are still those random times when it is a bit surprising when a man goes against the grain and is everything opposite of what my periodical bitter mind tries to force me to believe about men sometimes.

Therein lies the irony CA. HW writes a fine mea culpa for his past deeds. However, in doing so he accuses all men of being right there with him - including you. Presumably since you've expressed agreement you have been expunged of Neanderthal status. I have not and therefore I must still be in my cave carving up petroglyphs. (How's that for bitter? )

I'm sure HW that you'll tell me it wasn't your intention to so grossly generalize. I note exactly one sentence in your opening that backs that up. However, that one sentence is quickly lost to a litany of generalizations about men in general. Those generalizations and not the disclaimer that precedes them is obviously what have garnered attention and reaction. The CA/LL exchange is example of that.

You have to excuse me if I have an adverse reaction to the "pop culture inspired near man hating". It does not fit the intended audience IMO.

 

[Miles]

Therein lies the irony CA. HW writes a fine mea culpa for his past deeds. However, in doing so he accuses all men of being right there with him - including you. Presumably since you've expressed agreement you have been expunged of Neanderthal status. I have not and therefore I must still be in my cave carving up petroglyphs. (How's that for bitter? )

I'm sure HW that you'll tell me it wasn't your intention to so grossly generalize. I note exactly one sentence in your opening that backs that up. However, that one sentence is quickly lost to a litany of generalizations about men in general. Those generalizations and not the disclaimer that precedes them is obviously what have garnered attention and reaction. The CA/LL exchange is example of that.

Well... I read the first half of the OP, but skimmed the rest. In terms of point #3, I'm with you. Does that mean I still get to walk upright?

 

[sherri]

Gives us a H, give us an I, give us a G, give us a H, give us a L, give us a A, give us an N, give us.........etc etc


YAYYYY for Highland Watchman!!!!!

 

[Highland Watchman]

Points one and two are excellent.

Point four meanders a bit and that’s OK.

However, point three is offensive. Who are you to indict the men of CF for your presumably past behavior?

Where is it that we get this hairbrained notion that woman is only a warm body to snuggle up to and an object to use for our pleasure?
Certain individuals may, but we have no such notion.

Let alone the twisted and abused notion of "submission" that has me want to dry heave every time I hear about it.
The notion of submission is twisted by the world. The notion of submission as presented in the Bible is God ordained.

Sure, there is the whole submission thing, which I still really don't understand (but I don't think it is my place to understand…
You profess disdain for the subject yet admit that you have decided not to understand it.

...must we like cowards always "admire from afar", or sneak quick peaks down a girl's shirt, or under her skirt?
The last time I saw such behavior on a regular basis was in high school, which begs the question: Who exactly is it that you associate with? That is rhetorical, of course. I don’t want to know as they are apparently an unsavory bunch. The Christian guys I know display no such behavior. And perhaps there lies my problem with point three. You write as though you’re talking to the local gym. Good writing takes into account the intended audience. In case you’re unaware, this is a Christians only forum. There may be a few among us that act that way, but that is not the case for the overwhelming majority.

Ladies, please be patient with us. In many ways, we have to unlearn a lot of what we have learned.
Yes. Ladies please be patient while HW panders to the militantly feministic notion that men are by default knuckle draggers.

Therein lies the irony CA. HW writes a fine mea culpa for his past deeds. However, in doing so he accuses all men of being right there with him - including you. Presumably since you've expressed agreement you have been expunged of Neanderthal status. I have not and therefore I must still be in my cave carving up petroglyphs. (How's that for bitter? )

I'm sure HW that you'll tell me it wasn't your intention to so grossly generalize. I note exactly one sentence in your opening that backs that up. However, that one sentence is quickly lost to a litany of generalizations about men in general. Those generalizations and not the disclaimer that precedes them is obviously what have garnered attention and reaction. The CA/LL exchange is example of that.

You have to excuse me if I have an adverse reaction to the "pop culture inspired near man hating". It does not fit the intended audience IMO.

Okay, I will admit it - this post was a copy/paste job from my blog on Xanga, which I wrote at the same time... and there are at least a few guys... Christian guys... whom I had in mind when I was writing it. It was not meant to be a generalized slur. (You are right in pointing that out).

I am not spouting anti-male doctrine. As you can tell from my profile, I am just as much a man as you are, and I am quite content in my masculinity, and I am very much straight.

I am not saying either that men are the reason for women's problems, or that women are the reason for men's problems. There are some problems where, yeah... we tend to aid in the wounding, rather than in the healing. And this is even among "Christians", who are looking out for themselves and trying not to be hurt themselves.

Regarding the subject of submission, I have no problem with that, as it is very much a Scriptural idea. It is not for this that I have disdain. The disdain that I have is for the abusive ways by which it has been played out, which would also include the femi-nazi response of "men=evil", as well as the masculinist "my word is law. You will obey me, woman!!". The reason why I do not focus on the idea of how my wife is meant to submit to me is because it shouldn't be an issue for me. It is important, yes. But it is more important for HER to know what it means to submit, and to act in kind; Likewise, it is more important for me to LOVE her, to know what it means to love her, and to act accordingly.

If you are offended because I have unjustly lumped you in with a group that is certainly less holy than you are, then I do apologize. But my post was not meant to be a scathing one... rather, it was to be a clarion call to holiness, for those who may have been reading this who do have a hard time grasping this. If you do not struggle with the issues that I mentioned in this post, then all the props to you, mate!

However, as I said, I know many guys who DO think and act this way, and many of them go by the title "Christian". Do not assume that everyone who calls themself a Christian is truly walking the Way of Holiness, or that everyone who calls on the LORD does so from a vantage point of perfection. Otherwise, you are going to be greatly disappointed when you see the reverse.

We are very much a product of our culture, and I realize that the male-hating tendencies of many of our female contemporaries also needs to change. But as Christian men, men of holiness, shouldn't we give them sufficient reason to change this notion, by proving to them that there are men who are not "neanderthalic pigs"?

Like you, I am sitting in my cave with my petroglyphs, because I have very little understanding. There are many things that I REALLY don't know. But when I get excited about something I learn that may be beneficial, I want to share it with others, just in case there may be someone else who can benefit from such knowledge...

 

[Irascible]

In regards to submission, I have no problem with your expanded viewpoint.

In regards to the gross generalizations, you've said that I'm right to point it out yet the work stands unaltered. Your words and actions do not line up. I have work related essays that I leave available as public statements of my beliefs. They have been modified dozens of times because when I find error in them I correct them.

In regards to your pseudo-apology to me, sarcasm doesn't help.
If you are offended because I have unjustly lumped you in with a group that is certainly less holy than you are, then I do apologize.
Less holy? That word does not apply. Nor does saying that I don't look at women as well lubed dolls and that I don't sneak quick peaks down dresses imply a holier-than-thou attitude.

I know many guys who DO think and act this way, and many of them go by the title "Christian". Do not assume... that everyone who calls on the LORD does so from a vantage point of perfection.
You speak of a minority. You write as though they are a majority - that much you have conceded. Then you apologize on behalf of all men. That really galled me. And assuming perfection? Again you ascribe a holier-than-thou attitude to those who disagree with your generalizations.

I realize that the male-hating tendencies of many of our female contemporaries also needs to change. But as Christian men... shouldn't we give them sufficient reason to change this notion, by proving to them...
No. We should not. That would be like telling women that they should prove to me that they aren't gold diggers. The idea is absurd. We should of course emulate Christ as much as possible. But we do so by the Spirit as part of our walk with Christ, not because we're trying to prove something to jilted women.

 

[Irascible]

YAYYYY for Highland Watchman!!!!!

Cute. But I've come to expect something more from you than cheerleading. You're very well grounded in the scriptures. Let's go there.

In terms of the culture of the times, female bashing (for lack of a better word) was all the rage. Does the Bible then give us a litany of things wrong with females and tell them to shape up that they might prove themselves to men? Hardly. Yet that proposition, inversed for men, is what HW suggests.

 

[OhhJim]

Every time I try to go out of my way to impress a girl, especially a certain one... it backfires, and I look like an even bigger idiot than before.

Well, yeah. The advice, "Just be yourself" is not bad because you should go out of your way to impress a girl. It is bad because you should not just sit back and do nothing, thinking that will attract them. Finding the right woman is a process, and it takes either luck, skill or education. If you don't have the first two, you've got to work on the third. You'll notice that the advice "Just be yourself", is usually given by a woman to a man whom she would never date.

I notice that some of the women here think you're on the right track. How's it working in real life? Theorizing is fine, I love to do it myself; but the real test is how it works, and the only way to find out is to get out there and test it.

 

[Periann]

Okay, I will admit it - this post was a copy/paste job from my blog on Xanga, which I wrote at the same time...

how dare you? why does your post now feel secondhand to me.

ok just kidding!! i did like your original post for real. and guys like irascible and everlast i do think you are in the minority in how you view women. maybe its an age thing, but it is mature and respectful attitude and im sure that if you highland watchmen tried to live by the ideas stated in your post you will see a difference in how people percieve you....not that isn't what you were doing before. just saying.

 

[Irascible]

...and guys like irascible and everlast i do think you are in the minority in how you view women.

HW is addressing a Christian audience here. Do you actually believe respect for women is a minority view amongst Christian men? If that's the case then most Christian women will have to choose between marrying a jerk or not marrying at all. That's some choice.

 

[Periann]

I realize his post was directed towards Christian men, and Im not sure about this 'lack of respect' being a minority vs. majority viewpoint in this subgroup. But I do think it IS a more common than not viewpoint among Christian men, and younger men in particular. Granted I haven't polled or done observational studies but from what Ive seen this post has merit in giving palatable food for thought.

And about your comment Irascible of having the sad choice of marrying jerks who dont buy into the respect for women deal and not marrying at all....hopefully there will be a few Christian men to choose from who aren't jerks. I never said that there aren't.

 

[Irascible]

If it’s only a few, what do the rest of the nice Christian ladies do? There won't be enough good Christian guys to go around. Well, unless only a minority of Christian women are similarly good. Then it would balance out. But I'm sure no one wants to go there.

The idea that most single Christian men disrespect women is untenable. It would necessitate believing that most single Christian women will be forced to marry jerks. A few good ones simply aren’t enough.